Thai "Ladyboys"

[Starling]

In another sub-forum there was discussion of "Ladyboys" in Thailand, and the masculine personal pronoun was used. That seemed highly disrespectful to me, and reflective of prejudice toward a vulnerable segment of society. I was moved to learn how Kathoey (the correct term) actually see themselves. This is from a blog based in Thailand.

https://www.pattayaunlimited.com/ladyboy-kathoey-legal-gender-title-id/

(https://www.pattayaunlimited.com/ladyboy-kathoey-legal-gender-title-id/)In that same thread, the term "trap" was used. I've recently become familiar with that ugly term, but I thought we left it at the door when we came in here.

Not the PC police here; I'm just sayin'.

:sad: Lallie

[jentay1367]

There is a strange dynamic that exists in Thailand. I found when I was there, I was referred to as Mr. by those that were in the know that I was sexed AMAB even when I was presenting female. Some knew not because I didn't pass but rather because I was there having SRS. Those that did not know referred to me as Miss or Ma'am, but those that did as I stated, used the male pronouns. All of this was without judgement and not the slightest hint of a snide demeanor. They were all very respectful. The dichotomy exists in the fact that though you can't change your birth marker, you are accepted as who you choose to present as. By accepted I mean truly accepted. There seems to be no judgement or prejudice to the third sex and this seems to be universal among the Thai population. They really are some of the most polite and charming people I've ever encountered. The frustration for Thai girls that are AMAB, is there is no way to officially change your birth marker through the legal system. But regardless of the dejure situation, the defacto reality is you will be accepted and treated as you present. In contrast, in the U.S., you may receive legal status as your target gender but depending on how well you pass or not may never receive the dignity or respect that you enjoy from your legal status. That "dignity" seems to be a right in Thailand. At any rate, it's treated as one.

[AllieSF]

After reading the short article (did I miss more than the two paragraphs?) I see that it is about how Thai TS's are trying to do what TS's here are trying to do as they start their transitions, change their legal gender markers. Here in the USA we are first fighting at the State level and at the same time Federal level because not all States allow it or make it easy with varying justification requirements.

As for the disrespect for using the male pronoun in the thread on this site when referring to MtF "Ladyboys" or "Kathoeys", I agree with you and have seen that several times over the years when referring to trans people here in the USA and other countries. If one knows that the other trans person considers themself as a he or she, then the corresponding correct pronoun should be used. I do think that your complaint should have been made directly in the offending thread (unless it was already closed) to have the best positive effect. I do wonder if the Thai TS's think that Ladyboy and Kathoey are accepted terms by them, or are considered derogatory. The article just equated the two terms.

[Starling]

...did I miss more than the two paragraphs?...

My fault, Allie. There was a really powerful comment following the article, which I failed to point out.

:) Lallie

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...regardless of the dejure situation, the defacto reality is you will be accepted and treated as you present. In contrast, in the U.S., you may receive legal status as your target gender but depending on how well you pass or not may never receive the dignity or respect that you enjoy from your legal status. That "dignity" seems to be a right in Thailand. At any rate, it's treated as one.

That's really interesting, and it illustrates why traditional cultures may sometimes have a leg up on legalistic ones. It also suggests how it might be possible to have a good life under a repressive government. We may have to master that skill sooner, rather than later. If only we had more Buddhists in Congress!

:) Lallie

[Rianna Humble]

I found it to be a rather lightweight discussion of the struggle by Thai transpeople to be recognised for their real selves.

I only read one comment, but tend in any case to give those a miss for rather straightforward reasons.

[Katie Louise]

Kathoey is also considered derogatory. But having seen these women up close you can understand why some drunken yobbo-bogan ugly Australian cis-males get "trapped". They are stunning and often more feminine than their GG counterparts.
I believe that horrible term was coined by the same said ugly yobs.

[Teresa]

Lallie,
Dorit refered to a language problem in Israel , I don't know the Thai launguage but could the same problem arise in that country . Gender is assigned differently in some laguages .