Do u think a male dressed in woman's clothes can be a "lesbian"?

[docrobbysherry]

This is a take off on my "transbian" thread. There seems to be some disagreement on this point.

Altho the dictionary says lesbians r females, some members here describe themselves as lesbians when dressed. These members r attracted to women, not men apparently. I am, too. But, would never refer to myself as a lesbian because I'm not female.:battingeyelashes:

How about u?
If u r dressed and attracted to women, do u feel calling yourself a lesbian is accurate?:straightface:

[Bobbi46]

No I do not, I always think that the term Lesbian should solely be atributed to women who love women and sometimes form partnerships no way can a man who dresses up like woman be called a lesbian because of being the wrong original sex.

[Patience]

I thought “lesbian” was the correct term to describe the sexual orientation of the female counterpart of a heterosexual crossdressing male.
This is what I said in your other thread. It's still how I understand it.

[DIANEF]

I am only attracted to females whether in dress or drab. I wouldn't describe myself as a lesbian when dressed because underneath all the make up and hair I am still a male, and would only have a hetero sexual relationship with a woman. By that I mean I have no desire to have sex with a woman while dressed en femme.

[Robertacd]

No, just plain no.

The best you can do on this one is Eddie Izard's "I'm a male lesbian", but that's stupid and IMHO degrading to the Lesbian community.

[Alice B]

I love woman. Always have and always will. Not interested in men. I do not think of myself as a lesbian, but would love to be "with" a female while dressed

[Micki_Finn]

My personal feeling is that if you identify as Crossdresser, then the lesbian label would not apply. If you identify as trans, as the trans community will tell you, trans women are women, therefore lesbian would be appropriate.

[Stephanie47]

In my DADT marriage my wife told me if she wanted to have a relationship with a woman, she would have married a woman. I guess with or without a dress I'm still a heterosexual man (in a dress).

[Vicky_Scot]

I am a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

[kinky_caitlin]

I am a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

Me too, I've always described myself that way.

[Sarah Doepner]

Nope. It fails on too many parts of the definition and it also fails to show respect for the special relationship lesbians have with other women.

[Asew]

For me its a blurry line. But if they feel like a woman, look like a woman, and the other woman is attracted to them as a woman, sure sounds like a lesbian. If only there were some other word like transbian to describe this scenario :)

[GracieRose]

I am a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

Bingo.
That's how I feel.

[Paula DAngelo]

I think a lot of the replies are missing a major point here. For it to be a lesbian relationship it needs to be between 2 women. What clothes you are wearing has nothing to do with it. If you self identify as a man then it is not a lesbian relationship, if you identify as a woman then it is. From what most in this forum have said, they identify as a man therefor it would not be a lesbian relationship no matter what was being worn.

If you want to call yourself a lesbian, that's your choice since you can call yourself whatever you want, but you need to remember that the rest of the world may not see it the same way and some may rightly take offense to you doing so.

[Kyla Shay]

No, a man in a dress is not a woman.

[Cynthia T]

I describe myself as Lesbian, but only as a fun "in" joke with my S.O.

[RADER]

No not a Lesbian; I will always be a Bio-Boy, no change for me, I am way to old for that.
How ever I still like girls, and want to be with girls, but I am also wearing panties and a bra.
So i guess that makes me a boy in disguise.
rader

[Aunt Kelly]

Well put, Paula. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not to their own facts. The plain fact is that lesbians are women, not men who dress like women.

[Sarasometimes]

I cross-dress and I am only attracted to women (I have no idea how they can find the male form attractive. But I am oh so glad many do!) that being said I would not consider myself a lesbian unless I had lesbian equipment below the waist and I have no plan or desire to make the switch, so no!

[redtea]

No not a Lesbian.

But if a trans woman wants to identify as a Lesbian, There is really nothing I can do about it other than say they are misusing language to suit their needs. Sucks for the Lesbian community i guess, Many Lesbians Iv'e read want a real woman. This of course is viewed as bigotry on the left when in reality it's just personal preference.

This topic is pretty spicy, i wonder where the admins are to censor it =P

[HollyGreene]

I've often (jokingly) thought of myself as a "lesbian trapped in a man's body", but I don't really think of myself as a lesbian, because I'm not female - I just often wish I was.
I don't think of trans women as being women either, and unless they can do something to morph chromosomes, they never will be. So a man who has had the hormones and surgery would still not be a lesbian if he/she was attracted to women.
Just my opinion. I have nothing against trans people.

[Majella St Gerard]

I've been called a lesbian but if asked I just say I like girls.

[GracieRose]

(I have no idea how they can find the male form attractive. But I am oh so glad many do!)
I have no idea how anyone can find the male form attractive.
But since that pesky testosterone has afflicted me with a male form, I am oh so glad that there are women that do!

[Kas]

I think it depends on whether or not the person has transitioned or not and to what extent. I think if you’ve had SRS and now have a vagina, you can definitely say you’re a lesbian. A mere CDer? Definitely not lol.

[sometimes_miss]

My personal feeling is that if you identify as Crossdresser, then the lesbian label would not apply. If you identify as trans, as the trans community will tell you, trans women are women, therefore lesbian would be appropriate.

I think it depends on whether or not the person has transitioned or not and to what extent. I think if you’ve had SRS and now have a vagina, you can definitely say you’re a lesbian. A mere CDer? Definitely not lol.

The lesbian community would probably differ with you on that; part of that is due to the obvious visual, tactile, olfactory, etc., differences in GG and MTF TS genitalia (despite medical science being able to construct a vulva/vagina out of tissue which is externally visually similar, the internals are still quite different). The number of GG lesbians who are sexually attracted to a MTF TS are probably even fewer than the number of GG's who are interested in crossdressers. The lesbians I have known are pretty much in agreement with this, but of course, that's only a small sample size.

AFAIK, there are no studies on this, but it would be easy enough to go to any lesbian dating site, and ask. Just be polite.

[GeorgeA]

My personal feeling is that if you identify as Crossdresser, then the lesbian label would not apply. If you identify as trans, as the trans community will tell you, trans women are women, therefore lesbian would be appropriate.

I tend to agree with you notwithstanding a few others who don't.

[alwayshave]

I have joked that I am a lesbian trapped in a man's body. However, my negative interactions with lesbians tells me, no.

[Jaymees22]

I guess we could be described as a lesbian with benefits, but no lesbian would agree with that.

[Beverley Sims]

For me lesbian tendencies would be in the fore.

Traditional lesbian relationship views of men does not even bear thinking about

[Shayna]

My personal feeling is that if you identify as Crossdresser, then the lesbian label would not apply. If you identify as trans, as the trans community will tell you, trans women are women, therefore lesbian would be appropriate.

This! It may be a fantasy for some and that's fine, but I don't think any of the women I've known who are lesbians would think that, except in the case of someone who is trans.

[Charlotte7]

The quick answer is, NO

The fuller answer is, if you think you're a lesbian, then ask an actual lesbian, as they're the best placed to know what being a lesbian really is, and see what answer you get.

[Leslie Mary S]

A few years ago I have discussed this with my GG friend Dark AnGGel. I am a heterosexual man in a dress. If I were a real woman, I would be a lesbian. was our conclusion. Simple as that.It is not sex that caused me to CD, it is the feel od the cloths etc. Also dressing out does not arouse me in any way. Dressing out etc. does give me warm fuzzes. I just love the feel and excitement I get when I can dress, even if I am not going out in front of ANYONE.

[DaisyLawrence]

The simple solution is just to state your attraction rather than use a label. For example, I would simply say that I am 'female attracted'. This does not change with clothing or just how much my gender dysphoria is pulling me one way or the other at any one time. I can be presenting androgenous (normal for my NB identity), fully female, or even stood there stark naked with my male body and in all these cases I am still 'female attracted'. Simple.

[Stacy Darling]

I guess we could be described as a lesbian with benefits, but no lesbian would agree with that.

So well put!

But to answer the question, it's a No from me, as I'm a friend with benefits too!
Stacy!

[Lacey New]

After some thought, I have concluded that only a woman can be a lesbian. But I do think that men who have transitioned would be counted in that number. But for the rest of us who range from infrequent panty wearers all the way up to those of us who may live and present as women full tim, as long as we have our parts, we are still heterosexual males who are attracted to women. I confess that it would be a fantasy of mine to be fully dressed, then undressed and then have wild sex with a GG but as femme as I might be in the entire fantasy experience, I would still be a mant having sex with a woman. Not really a lesbian.

[Jacqueline1965]

This is a very thought provoking thread. I too have referred to myself as Lesbian because I present as female most of the time and only like women. It's a slippery slope because once you start questioning the labels it's starts getting very complicated. For example is a genetic female that considers themselves non binary, they them referring, that likes women a lesbian? Many would say YES. They most likely would disagree because they do not consider themselves women. To strip it all down to the root would be to say if you have a certain chromosome count then you are either male or female. Sex and Gender are separate things and the current definition of male and female does not seem to hold anymore with about 75 variations in gender and sex. I feel female inside most of the time even though I have male parts. I only like women. What label am I? I have no idea. I think it's dangerous to start questioning who is "woman" and who is not. There are just too many variations on the theme. We all need to step outside the box.

[Teresa]

Roberta,

Eddie Izzard is making a statement to how he feels inside whether the term is right or wrong to others , I personally have to agree with him, part of me feels the same way . If a person makes a statement how they feel is it right for others to say it's stupid , I've been right with other gut feeling. When I expained my feelings along with my Cding history to my gender counsellor she did understand why I feel this way .

[Roxanne Lanyon]

You simply cannot satisfy some people!
Roxanne

- - - Updated - - -

No. Only if she is dressed in miedeivel armor!
Roxanne

[phili]

Wikipedia has a good section on transsexuality, and uses the terms gynophilic and androphilic to describe attraction- and these can be found in males and females, trans and cis, straight and gay. It is a simpler solution than claiming membership in the lesbian clan.

[docrobbysherry]

But, phili, do u think many people would understand those terms? At least most people think they know what a "lesbian" is!:heehee:

[Aunt Kelly]

Roberta,

Eddie Izzard is making a statement to how he feels inside whether the term is right or wrong to others , I personally have to agree with him, part of me feels the same way . If a person makes a statement how they feel is it right for others to say it's stupid...
That depends. People make stupid statements all the time. Saying that it's "how they feel" doesn't necessarily make it not stupid, especially their position is in contravention of plain facts.

This whole thread, two of them actually, is based on the glib or comic misappropriation of the term "lesbian". Trying to support an argument through such linguistic gymnastics is just plain, well... stupid. No one who can speak with any authority on the term, including every dictionary I can find, would seriously apply the term to a heterosexual man, his attire at the moment notwithstanding.

[Teresa]

Aunt Kelly,
In your opinion for what it's worth !! Don't bother in making a reply I'm no longer interested in your opinion thanks !

[mykell]

folks in the wild just see a man in a dress. most people dont understand TG/non binary in general, but this made sense to me and thats who i care about these days.

sorry to boost this from another thread but its what this thread was attributed to.


Ever since that "transbian" discussion, I have thought about this and have gone both ways. But after thinking in terms of concepts we have regarding sex and gender, I have come to the conclusion that a trans-woman can be a lesbian and be involved in a lesbian relationship, irrespective to the sexual identity or anatomy.

To me, a lot of this confusion originates in the way many relate gender identity and sexual identity and the use of gender terms in a sexual context and sexual terms in a gender context. To me sexual identity is male and female and that is determined genetically. And that is the end of that. Gender though is a different thing with very little connection to sexual identity genetics, that is, whether you have two X chromosomes or an X and a Y, plus the variations on this that produce an intersex condition with regard to morphology, anatomy, and physiology.

Gender is the role you "play" in the context of the social structure. The terms men and women and masculine and feminine are gender based terms. So, if you are a man and you identify with the more traditional role that women serve then you are, in terms of gender, a woman even though you are not female. But when we are not careful to keep the concept of these terms in their proper context we end up with cross meanings. Because most females are women (but not all) then we equate female and woman. Same thing if you start with males. That is, not all males are men. In fact they are far more women.

HRT and SRS completes the anatomical part, but the chromosomes are still the same. Does it matter? No, because the identity, the person we deal with is usually the gender person and not the chromosomal person. Thus, trans-women, in the gender context, are women. Can a trans women be a lesbian?

Here we have a blending of sexual identity and gender identity and that makes it difficult. Asking one question, at least for me, clarifies it. When you have sexual relations are you making love to the chromosomal identity, that is the sexual identity, or the person with the gender identity? For nearly all, it is the person and not their chromosomes that is the attraction. Therefore a woman who is genetically female and a woman who is genetically male can have a lesbian relationship because genetics really is not a factor; and attraction to each others gender identity is the driver. Therefore, using this reasoning, the answer is yes as to whether a trans-woman can be lesbian.

Sorry for all the more or less clinical talk about these technical aspects, but I think when we break down these things into smaller units, as Stephanie47 and others have suggested, the answer becomes much clearer.

i have a friend who affirms im lesbian, but i dont identify as "MAN"

[Roxanne Lanyon]

I do not even want to understand! I just want to love him, no matter what kind of girl I am!
Roxanne, A Sweet Girl

[JeanTG]

All I know is that I have a significant feminine side to my character, I like to dress up as a woman, I'm exclusively sexually attracted to women, and I'd like to try lesbian, non-penetrative sex with a willing woman, preferably my wife!!! (but she won't play so I guess it's fantasy land for me as I have no desire to cheat).

Whatever that makes me, is what I am...

[Paige Dehart]

Paula, you make some good points, However This does not take into account hetro cis women who married a man that later transitioned. By your reckoning they would now be considered a lesbian simply because they decided to stay in the marriage. I know several who would have a few choice words for anyone who dared to call them lesbian.

[AllieSF]

Paige,

It is not so much that the person labeled likes the label or not. It is whether the label is correct.

[Elena77]

Paula, you make some good points, However This does not take into account hetro cis women who married a man that later transitioned. By your reckoning they would now be considered a lesbian simply because they decided to stay in the marriage. I know several who would have a few choice words for anyone who dared to call them lesbian.

If the genetic female continued to have sexual relations with man that transitioned to a woman, then she is not a heterosexual woman at all any more in any way shape or form. Doesn't matter if she was married to her SO BEFORE the surgery or not. So, if she still has sexual relations with her spouse and doesn't like the label lesbian pansexual is a better label for her :)

- - - Updated - - -

As for the original question, my opinion is this. If you're a crossdresser and you're only attracted to women then you're just that, a dude who likes to crossdress. But if you identify as a woman and still are only attracted to women then you can IDENTFIY yourself as a lesbian to an extent. But a genetic female lesbian would likely have issue with a couple things if you were to ever try to have a date.

[Ceera]

I do identify as a lesbian, and my cisgender lesbian friends agree. But I think of myself as a woman who hasn’t yet fully transitioned. If I thought of myself as solidly male, I would not use the lesbian term for myself. I started applying it to myself only after I accepted that a large part of my mind is female, and that I prefer socializing as a female.

[Elena77]

I do identify as a lesbian, and my cisgender lesbian friends agree. But I think of myself as a woman who hasn’t yet fully transitioned. If I thought of myself as solidly male, I would not use the lesbian term for myself. I started applying it to myself only after I accepted that a large part of my mind is female, and that I prefer socializing as a female.

See and in my opinion there's nothing wrong with that. You were born male, but your mind,your heart,your soul, and everything inside you tells you that you're female so you chose to live as and identify as a female. That doesn't make you a homosexual male just because you feel you're female. So really there isn't a correct "label" to put on it other than "identifying as a lesbian female"

[jacques]

hello,
In my opinion this is a bit like the "all crossdressers are gay" generalisation.
I think that sex, gender and sexuality can be separated and are not necessarily binary.
Perhaps a postoperative trans-women could be a lesbian, but that is different,
luv J

[Mickitv]

Although I usually hate labels, I would have to go along with many of the other comments and say no a lesbian should be used for a female only

[Elena77]

Although I usually hate labels, I would have to go along with many of the other comments and say no a lesbian should be used for a female only

With this logic tho, people who were born male but identify as female and live as female but have male genitalia shouldn't be able identity as a female. If I'm born male, but I identify as a female and live as a female 24/7 but I have ZERO interest in men, zero interest in other transexuals, and only interested in 100% females.....what then would the "label" be for my sexual preference?

[KimberlyJean]

So, I was out Saturday night and was talking with a queer man (he doesn't like the word gay), he was asking me about my orientation. He said "Do you like men", I said "No". He said "are you Bi", again I said "No." Then quickly he said "Oh, you are a lesbian." He didn't leave me any room to debate the term and I immediately thought of this thread.

[Elena77]

Exactly, it's that simple. If you see no problem with someone born one gender but identifying as the opposite gender because that's how they feel inside, then I don't understand why someone identifying as female shouldn't be able to call themselves a lesbian if they want?! There's literally no other term to describe their sexual preference.

[Rayleen]

Doc

Last night while dressed, looking in the mirror, felt as one for sure, always love women and always will.


Rayleen

[StephanieH]

I have always thought I was a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

[cd_hope]

Re: the original question, I have no idea but I've never been a fan of labels. Do what you want and so long as it isn't hurting anyone or yourself it's fine.

[Devi SM]

There's another thread in the transexual section about transbian.
In our broad and wide lgbtq....there's no rule. Remember that there's a sexual people and pa sexual too, so to be a trasgender woman and like sex with women is not weird.
Remember that as may be one of the few rules, sex and gender are not the same.