Disturbing Observation

[Paula DAngelo]

I was going back and rereading the replies to a post and have to say I noticed something very disturbing. I know and understand that everyone has and is entitled to their own opinion. With that being said I find that multiple members are making comments that are very disrespectful to what appears to be a minority group of members on this site.

I'm speaking of those of us that are trans-women. I understand that this is mainly a site for cross dressers, however I thought that one of the core beliefs was that trans-women are women, at least that is what is often stated. Lately I have been seeing a lot of replies that imply or out right state that a trans-woman is not a woman.

So if we're if we're not woman, and we know we're not men what do you think we are? Also when seeing comments like I've been seeing lately it makes me question if we're even wanted here and if our experiences or knowledge is valued. Maybe I'm getting the wrong impression from what I'm seeing but it does make me question if it's worth staying around and being insulted.

[Stacy Darling]

There's a whole heap of love in the some of us! we may all be not be about at the same time though!


We are all the same!
Stacy!

[Piora]

Well, Paula....I would simply say, please don't judge an entire forum on the remarks and opinions of a tiny minority. I embrace the thoughts and opinions of all LGBTQ members here. And while yes, there is a large member base here for crossdressers, there are many trans men and women here as well. We all identify differently. And we should be happy for those that have found their identities and their sexuality, not critical of them. No one should be subjected to insults based on that identity.

[Lygophilia]

There is always going be haters, I would just ignore them. You know in your heart who you are. I do feel out of place in the forums though.

[bridget thronton]

I believe people determine their own gender - so transwomen are definitely women in my world view

[mykell]

paula i find that it comes from all directions, intolerance with'in our group towards our community....dont think its right, i try to point it out when i read about it. just recently felt like a troll doing so. some folks just find different words to give the same point of view or ask a question they really dont want the answer too.

when i conduct my social events at a LGBT center i meet many interesting folks and when you are looking directly into someones eyes i feel i am really getting a connection that way as opposed to here. I will also get some "disturbing vibes" there also with folks who dont "get" non binary though so its not isolated just to this forum. i try to explain what its like to have the brain of a women and the body of a man ......some folks just will never get it.

at the end of the day its what you believe about your identity that matters most but its nice when folks have your "6". surely you have had mostly positive vibes here so keep in contact with the folks on those conversations....

[Teresa]

Paula,
The problem is some may talk about wanting to be a woman without thinking about what a TS goes through , the mindset remains you can still float back and forth like a CDer . What you go through is permanent . The problem I have seen with some TSs I've met is their bodies are as they always wished them to be but their brain isn't fully letting go of some male issues , I would guess for some that never does completely go away . I realise this can be a very sensitive issue for some people and to have their gender challenged is totally thoughtless . It is a sad fact that some people do derive pleasure from hurting others .

We do need an input from TSs to give us a balanced forum , personally I hope you can ride over these people and help the ones that appreciate your input .

[Tracy Irving]

I thought that one of the core beliefs was that trans-women are women, at least that is what is often stated. Lately I have been seeing a lot of replies that imply or out right state that a trans-woman is not a woman.

I have seen this also and commented on it in the "I'm a Transbian" thread.

Maybe they are just thinking about it biologically and ignoring gender? Or maybe they actually feel that someone identifying as gender female isn't a woman and can't be a lesbian. Perhaps we will get some clarity.

[Giselle(Oshawa)]

to me a trans woman is a woman and went through a hell of a lot of anguish and effort to become one

[Beverley Sims]

Paula, you stay here, comments like yours are good as it keeps the rest of us on our toes.

What you say is a reminder for others to remember how others have to live.

I think the comment before mine sums some of it up nicely.

[Rachael Leigh]

Paula, I’m going to be honest here over the years I’ve struggled with this and can it be true trans women are women.
I’ve been through a lot in the last year, from planning on transition and then not going through with it. However with all of
this now living a more non binary life I know I am more female than male. Gender identity is a very tough issue for many
of us I respect everyone here no matter who they are or their daily life and presentation

[Shelly Preston]

Moderator note

No one should ever feel insulted here this is a Support Forum for everyone in the community

I would urge anyone with an issue to report it.

[Stephanie47]

I have seen this also and commented on it in the "I'm a Transbian" thread.

Maybe they are just thinking about it biologically and ignoring gender? Or maybe they actually feel that someone identifying as gender female isn't a woman and can't be a lesbian. Perhaps we will get some clarity.

In general without regard to this site or any other written discourse the problem of using a single word to describe anything is to invite a multitude of perceptions of meaning. I have commented many times do not assign a singular word to a detailed subject. Express in sentences and paragraphs. Frankly, until that thread appeared, "I', a Transbian" I never heard it before. I don't think I live in a closet, but, if I as a participant on this site never heard it before and really do not know what its meaning is, does anyone really expect the general public to understand it.

If Paula has read something which upset her or is in conflict with her beliefs I would suggest she or anyone else should ask for a clarification from the poster. One of problems with written discourse is expressing oneself with clarity when the poster is maybe also thinking with non verbal communication. Written discourse does not readily project non verbal communication such as voice inflection or facial expressions.

[Tracii G]

I saw those two threads and the titles alone made me not want to read them.
Knowing full well what would happen in them I chose to stay away.

[Tina B.]

Paula, as far as I'm concerned I think we all have the right to self identify. Remember we are mostly just a bunch of men trying to figure out our own place in society, who among us has a right to tell another where they fit on the spectrum. If you choose to identify as a trans-woman, or as a women, your call not mine. I'm still working on my own, crossdresser, or transvestite, or trans gendered so who am I to choose for you. We are a large group, and just like the real world, you have to pick and choose who you will listen to, and pay attention too, and who you need to just ignore, but please not run off, we need to hear from all the community.

[Roxanne Lanyon]

I am, of course, what I choose to be, unless, of course, I am not who I am but am what I want to be, unless, of course, some of you disagree with what I am not thinking.
Roxanne

[Patricia_Campi]

Paula, I believe that when we discover our non binary gender (and there is a huge variation inside this spectrum) we begin a fight. The first fight is with us, with our inner self, and this is a tough one. This leads us through various emotional states (questioning, anger, acceptance, deception, sadness, happiness, and so on) and some of the people on this forum can be on some of this states and will behave according to them.

So, try to accept these people and imagine that they are in a roller coaster of emotions and are only trying to understand themselves and win that fight.

That´s how I see these haters, because I have been there once. :)

Kisses

Patricia

[GaleWarning]

One thing I have learned from this site is this:
We are all somewhere on a VERY wide spectrum.

[Alice B]

In my mind it is a simple answer. If you are transitioning to become a woman and feel like you are a woman, then you are a woman.

[Fran in skirts]

Paula, You stated you are a "trans-woman" then as far as I am concerned you are a woman. I am a man in a dress or skirt. Others here are full cross-dessers, many are somewhere in between, there is no room for hate or such ugly stuff. If it some one causes you to be hurt because of what you are then they need to be reported. I accept all forms of trans gender people as they are who they are.
Fran

[Bobbi46]

Gender tolerance is what is needed, throughout. Paula you should never have to put up with nasty comments against you and I totally agree with what Shelly says if something comes up which is a direct insult to you you MUST report the thread. This is a forum for help and support for everybody irespective of our dressing or gender level we should all support and help each other and not go out to hurt someone just because of some warped outlook on something.
If for no other reason your place is here with us as I say we are here to help and support just as much as your life's experiences are of worth to us in turn.
There are huge numbers of good people here just for you.

[GretchenJ]

Hi Paula,

To piggyback Shelly’s post, this is a support forum for all and anyone who feels excluded or insulted should report it.

Although there are are varying opinions around here, but no one should be slighted. But I have found the vast majority of the members here are very supportive

[phili]

Good for you for speaking up- as we need to do that periodically when the usual problems of online communicating arise. This site is special because of inclusiveness, while it is made up of individuals who each have a slightly different view of the elephant in the room- "gender". First problem is that gender is not well defined and has many attributes that are all varying, so people will be sure of their own views and oversimplify in favor of their convenience. Second problem is that people want to share, but more or less unilaterally, so they often don't read carefully, or the poster [me, for good example, is confusing], or terms are simply reacted to instead of analyzed.

I don't know what you went through-but every so often I or someone else will get some scalding comment on being too much of a MIAD for someone else. People don't feel it, so they don't understand it! THe problem of course is that should stimulate asking questions rather than criticizing!

[Paula DAngelo]

First I want to thank the show of support from members here. I'm glad there are others that are respectful of others and want this forum to be a benefit to all the members and realize that we can all help each other.

One thing that I keep seeing being repeated and personally I disagree with is that if you are insulted or someone is being insulting then they should be reported so that the Mods can step in. Now before everyone gets all upset let me explain why I fell this way. If someone is constantly insulting a group or individuals I can see the merit in reporting them, they are showing an ongoing pattern and this is something that I think falls into the area that the Mods are best equipped to handle. Now the rest of the times when it's occasional and not ongoing I don't see any merit in reporting the person. We're all supposed to be adults here, and I would hope most of us live in the real world where people say things we don't like or that we disagree with, or even are out right insulting at times. Do we all go running and complain every time this happens, or do we realize this is a part of life and just continue living our lives. Believe me, if you have any thoughts of transitioning you better get used to this happening and develop a thicker skin.

I've seen and heard of too many times where someone goes running to the Mods because they don't like a reply that was made, or they think someone is picking on them because of a different view, or at times the truth is posted. Some of the people here seem like they need to grow up and stop acting like little children. They need to remember the world doesn't revolve around them and life isn't always a bowl of cherries. Does it really do any good to ban someone for stating the truth or a different point of view just because someone "feels" insulted or put down? All I see that doing is causing the people with the real knowledge to keep quite or to leave and then we all lose.

Have I personally been insulted, no I haven't, however lately there have been quite a few posts that have been insulting to trans-women in general. So in a general way, yes I have been insulted. I find it hard to believe that I'm the only one that saw this. Maybe I'm the only one that took offense and decided to say something. My initial post was not to point fingers at any one person or to cause any one to be reprimanded it was to get people to stop and think about what they are posting and to think how it will look to and possibly affect others.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Paula;

I've always found this site to be supportive of all women. I know that sometimes new members take a little time to learn to walk in high heels when it comes to terminology so to speak. Usually those people find themselves gently chastised within their own thread. I really don't know of any posts that are "been insulting to trans-women in general". Maybe if you could give a general example of what appears to be questionable in your opinion ?

Also when you see something,defiantly speak up in the thread. The moderators are do a great job and are very fair letting some conversations. I find it interesting when we have good discusions on issues such as gender, transitioning and and what it means to different people.

[Paula DAngelo]

Kelly,


Here are some examples all taken from recent thread(s):


I don't think of trans women as being women either, and unless they can do something to morph chromosomes, they never will be.
Obviously this person does not think that I or any other trans-woman know what we are, and they are more qualified to decide what we are.




I think it depends on whether or not the person has transitioned or not and to what extent. I think if you’ve had SRS and now have a vagina, you can definitely say you’re a lesbian.
So know unless we are able to transition to the extent that they think is required we are not women




as long as we have our parts, we are still heterosexual
I guess this means that people that are bisexual or pan-sexual don't exist according to this logic. This is wrong on so many levels.




All of these statements are insulting and demeaning to the people that fit in the groups being talked about. These are the type of comments that we have to fight against on a daily basis as they are the same type of comments that are being used to try and make it illegal for us to exist. Why are we giving the "enemy" ammunition to use against us, if "we" feel this way why should the rest of the world see us any differently?

[Lana Mae]

Paula, I would say that these folks are not aware that many "trans-women" can not afford healthcare let alone HT and SRS! They are women but still have their male parts because they can not afford to get female parts! Does this make them any less women? No because it is how you feel that makes you a woman! The sum of our lives is not our genitals! I fully support ALL of our trans ladies regardless of where you are at physically! Hugs Lana Mae

[Kelly DeWinter]

Paula;

I recall the thread and I agree with how you feel. The reality is that for some here the journey they are on is to transition at some point. They don't realize it until some time later when they cross the line between being a cross-dresser to being transgender. Some people don't understand the difference between sex and gender and are like birthers (political reference) they hold to the notion that gender is in chromosomes.

There is a current theme floating on this site about MAID which is the new definition for being a Transvestite ( don't hammer me people, it's my opinion) For some being a MAID is their simple understanding of Cross-dressing without the complications of admitting to being a Cross-dresser.

The one thing this site does not have is a beginner guide to CD/TG that lays out what is and what is not in terminology.

The best way to remove any '"enemy"ammunition' is to educate the members in a persuasive manner. It just takes time.

One of the great aspects of this site is that it gives people time to learn by asking questions.

[Ashley in Virginia]

Its not all about money for transitioning. I am a transwoman, I still have male parts. I don't ever see myself getting rid of them for my own personal reasons. It does not make me any less of a woman than other transwomen who have had surgery.

Transphobia is rampant on this forum. Everytime I read someone saying about "choosing to be a woman" is a slap in the face. I am a woman. For years I chose to be a man. I couldn't do it anymore and I decided to be real about who I am. Being my real self is me being a woman.

[Alice Torn]

i am part man, part woman, and go back and forth, but it is very tough for most of us with these emotions, and compulsions in a difficult world. I think partly like a woman, and partly like a man, but feel i am more of a lady in a big male body, that has leggs also like a lady. Live and let live. Bit, it is ok to disagree agreeably, and not be cruel.

[Aunt Kelly]

Paula,
First of all, bless you and every other FtM TS who participates here on crossdressers.com. Their/your presence here routinely provides knowledge and perspective which can be provided by no other group. Speaking as someone who has only recently come to terms with being TS, I can tell you that it has been valuable.
Yes, there is more ignorance and insensitivity than it seems there should be in a community like this, but were it not for the patience of those transwomen who continue to contribute it would be a darker place. And yes, I get why so many who are now transitioned just want to get on with life and don't really need what support might be available here. Maybe that will happen to me, but I hope not. I come from a place where service to one's community is a high calling and consider it a privilege to walk in the footsteps of those who came before, bringing more light to places that need it.

Hugs,


Kelly

[Kelly DeWinter]

Ashley "Trans-phobia is rampant on this forum." ?!? Please ! This forum is the most inclusive and non Trans-phobic you will find on the internet. Are Transgender issues and ideas discussed ? Yes, Do people have varying ideas ? yes . Do some people at some times use terms in a way that others don't agree with ? yes

Any one who is down right disrespectful or hostile usually does not last long on the forum and we can that the moderators for the great job they do.

I applaud the brave men and woman who identify with their gender and live their lives as fully as they can in the best manner they can.

In most cases people who use the phrase "choosing to be a woman" means that they have chosen to live their gender identity. Don't you think it's more appropriate to encourage them in their choice and not take it as an insult ?

[Kas]

It is a crossdressing site foremost, so you have to expect this kind of thing as the majority here are just guys who like to wear women’s clothing. I’m sure there are better forums for TS discussions than this place.

The TS section is basically dead on this site unfortunately.

[rachelatshop]

Hi Paula, I'm sorry that you have seen that kind of post, because that is not what I thought this site was about. Most all trans-women were and many still are sometimes cross dressers that is how we all started and it is some of the trans-women who can answer some of the questions that some young cross dressers have when they want to know where they might be headed. May the force be always with you

[marlacd]

The mods on here do a good job of keeping this site a pleasant place for us to come to.

Still, the haters could invade, and cause disruption in here. Trolls are everywhere. Why they want to be destructive, belittling us for what we choose to do, is quite the puzzle. From those who wish to control us, to those who wish to bring down our devices, it's some sort of power trip for them. For all we know, it could be someone's irate spouse, or an ex that wants to create problems.

My experiences with other forums has gotten me to ignore random negative posts. I remember them, and just skip reading their posted drivel. Acknowledging them, only encourages them to continue their nonsense. The best mod, is you. Don't let them get to you. They aren't living your life. Don't let them in your mind. Dwell on positive things.

Ignore them, and they will go away.

[Bobbi46]

Paula, the degree of insult here is so little as to not be worth bothering about and in any case if one is being insulted then the mods are here to help out, as for transphobia here I have yet to see/find it, sure there are differences of opinion but that is what this site is here fro opinions and advice.

[Paula DAngelo]

Bobbi,

If you are mean the number of insults occurring on the forum in general being minor i would tend to agree with you, although it does seem to be increasing (just my opinion). Now if you are saying that the original post or the examples that i posted are minor i have to disagree. Here's what i see just from the 3 examples that i gave.

A member thinks I and others like me are to stupid to know who we are, and how we should be identified, but they can say who we are.. Another member feels that unless we have the medical procedures that they think are required we aren't who we know we are. Finally we have a member that says since i still have male parts and i have a relationship with a woman i am heterosexual. Not that it's any ones business, but guess what, I pan-sexual , so once again someone thinks they know me more than i do.

You say you have seen no examples of transphobia, well I've just shown you some.

Maybe you consider all these minor things and should just be ignored, but to me and I'm guessing others like me these are major as they strike right at my core identity and my right to exist. This is why i started this thread to begin with, to make people think about the impact of their words.

[Vicky_Scot]

I'm speaking of those of us that are trans-women. I understand that this is mainly a site for cross dressers, however I thought that one of the core beliefs was that trans-women are women, at least that is what is often stated. Lately I have been seeing a lot of replies that imply or out right state that a trans-woman is not a woman.

Sorry Paula but reading your statement you call yourself a Trans-Woman so you can't complain as you do not even recognise yourself as a woman. You should be calling yourself a woman, plain and simple.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Bobbi

Yes words have meaning, but context also does. If you re-read the post , the thread was about what makes a lesbian, not what makes a woman.

I agree that people need to know that their words have an impact, but it cuts both ways.

This morning I was read an article about a male high school lifeguard who 5 girls started a rumor that he had raped two girls, the rumors circulated at school, guidance counselor overheard, reported to principal, who called the local Crisis line, who called the police. The boy was prosecuted for a crime he did not commit. The girls admitted to making things up.

Even in this post words like trans-phobia and haters are tossed about casually.

Consider what transphobia is:

Transphobia is a range of negative attitudes, feelings or actions toward transgender (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender) or transsexual (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexual) people, or toward transsexuality (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuality). Transphobia can be emotional disgust, fear, violence, anger, or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to society's gender (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender) expectation.

[Paula DAngelo]

Sorry Paula but reading your statement you call yourself a Trans-Woman so you can't complain as you do not even recognise yourself as a woman. You should be calling yourself a woman, plain and simple.

Vicky,

Just because I state that I am a trans-woman does not negate the fact that I am a woman. Using your logic if someone identified as an African American Woman or any other sub group of womanhood then they to would not be a woman. Just because someone states that they are part of a sub group in a larger group does not exclude them from the larger group.

[Queen Bridget]

If you identify as a woman, then you aren't crossdressing. You are wearing the clothes of your gender.

I don't like to be mean, but this specific forum says that it's for Crossdressers (Men who wear the clothing of the opposite gender). There is a seperate forum for TG/TS people.

[GretchenM]

Ever since that "transbian" discussion, I have thought about this and have gone both ways. But after thinking in terms of concepts we have regarding sex and gender, I have come to the conclusion that a trans-woman can be a lesbian and be involved in a lesbian relationship, irrespective to the sexual identity or anatomy.

To me, a lot of this confusion originates in the way many relate gender identity and sexual identity and the use of gender terms in a sexual context and sexual terms in a gender context. To me sexual identity is male and female and that is determined genetically. And that is the end of that. Gender though is a different thing with very little connection to sexual identity genetics, that is, whether you have two X chromosomes or an X and a Y, plus the variations on this that produce an intersex condition with regard to morphology, anatomy, and physiology.

Gender is the role you "play" in the context of the social structure. The terms men and women and masculine and feminine are gender based terms. So, if you are a man and you identify with the more traditional role that women serve then you are, in terms of gender, a woman even though you are not female. But when we are not careful to keep the concept of these terms in their proper context we end up with cross meanings. Because most females are women (but not all) then we equate female and woman. Same thing if you start with males. That is, not all males are men. In fact they are far more women.

HRT and SRS completes the anatomical part, but the chromosomes are still the same. Does it matter? No, because the identity, the person we deal with is usually the gender person and not the chromosomal person. Thus, trans-women, in the gender context, are women. Can a trans women be a lesbian?

Here we have a blending of sexual identity and gender identity and that makes it difficult. Asking one question, at least for me, clarifies it. When you have sexual relations are you making love to the chromosomal identity, that is the sexual identity, or the person with the gender identity? For nearly all, it is the person and not their chromosomes that is the attraction. Therefore a woman who is genetically female and a woman who is genetically male can have a lesbian relationship because genetics really is not a factor; and attraction to each others gender identity is the driver. Therefore, using this reasoning, the answer is yes as to whether a trans-woman can be lesbian.

Sorry for all the more or less clinical talk about these technical aspects, but I think when we break down these things into smaller units, as Stephanie47 and others have suggested, the answer becomes much clearer.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Queen;

Iv'e looked it over carefully, nowhere does it say that. And it was mean. Whats next suggesting separate water fountains ?

The exchange of ideas is important to understanding.

[Vicky_Scot]

Vicky, Just because I state that I am a trans-woman does not negate the fact that I am a woman.

Sorry but of course it does.

[Queen Bridget]

Iv'e looked it over carefully, nowhere does it say that. And it was mean. Whats next suggesting separate water fountains ?

The exchange of ideas is important to understanding.

Well, "Male" typically referring to "Men".

I know it's just a technicality, but I'm someone who came here to escape abuse from the Trans community. Thinking this was a place for CD's to be free from the constant "Gender identity" lectures we endure on most other sites.

I know an exchange of ideas is important. But sometimes it's nice for groups to have their own space.

[Paula DAngelo]

Sorry but of course it does.

Vicki,

Maybe you should read the whole post that you decided to cherry pick one line from. If you had bothered to read or attempt to understand you would not have made your comment, unless you believe that trans-women aren't women.

I'll rephrase it for you so maybe this time you will be able to understand. Identifying as part of a sub group, in this case trans-women, does not exclude you from the larger group, women. The only way being a trans-woman would exclude you from being a woman is if you are saying that trans-women are not women.

So tell me, are trans-women women, or aren't they?

[Kas]

I know it's just a technicality, but I'm someone who came here to escape abuse from the Trans community. Thinking this was a place for CD's to be free from the constant "Gender identity" lectures we endure on most other sites.

If this is what you were looking for then you came to the wrong site unfortunately. You would assume TS would post, you know, on the TS thread or one of the many other TS websites, but no. They come here on the CROSSDRESSING thread and then get offended because not everybody accepts their beliefs and get all the threads that are actually interesting shut down. Also doesnt help that the mods ALWAYS side up with the TS in any argument.

I goto admit though, If you like hearing people talk about what colour their nails were for their annual trip to the day spa then this is the place to be.

[Amelie]

I have been on and off this forum since 2004 and it does sometimes seem to have this feeling of people not understanding being a woman, a trans woman is like. And sometimes this mis understanding comes out in posts that can be hurtful. I am not going to search my old posts, that is if they are still there, but I have said many times that I am a woman and I haven't got the understanding. I think one of my complaints is why am I not allowed to belong to the womens section of the forum if I am a woman. I don't really care to belong to the womens section but is was just a point I was trying to make at the time and how being a woman it felt like others didn't see me the same way as a woman.

And if one is a trans woman, a woman, a cd, an SO, then it doesn't matter what part of the forum they should be able to post in. Information and support can be given by anyone in any forum no matter what the person identifies with. I think this forum and trans people in general make the mistake of putting everyone in their special sections instead of just coming together as a whole. We might have our differences but also we are the same.

I also take it that geography plays a part. My mindset of living in the East Village of NYC is quite different from someone from Kansas. This forum has people from all parts and with that comes all different ways of thinking. When I first came online I was amazed how different people's thinking was to mine and how i lived my life. I use to be here at lot in the first years but as time went on I grew to dislike most cds and trans people. Even on FB trans groups I can take only so much of the infighting between people who should be friends that I'd rather live alone away from all of them.

I said this many years ago on this forum. I live my life as a woman every where I go but when I come to this forum I am made to feel like a man. That's OK, I understand this forum.

[GaleWarning]

I joined this forum because I wanted to understand myself. I could not have reached the level of understanding I have achieved without being exposed to the viewpoints of everyone who has ever been a member of this forum.

I don't care for labels, and have expressed my hatred of these vehemently and often on this site.

I do love it that there is such a wide variety of expression of a commonality … a love of women's clothing. This is the essence of 'crossdressing', no matter how each of us views 'the woman within'.


Enough bitching now!

[RachelPortugal]

If you identify as a woman, then you aren't crossdressing. You are wearing the clothes of your gender.

I don't like to be mean, but this specific forum says that it's for Crossdressers (Men who wear the clothing of the opposite gender). There is a seperate forum for TG/TS people.

NO!

It actually states "This section is for those interested in discussing all areas of male to female crossdressing." So it is not for the exclusive use of men who wear clothing of the opposite sex. Maybe Paula has started a thread that is not discussing an area of male to female crossdressing, but she is quite rightly addressing other threads in this section which were themselves not specifically discussing an area of male to female crossdressing.

Anybody can post here! Sometimes the mods will move a thread to another section, but sometime the edges are blurred as to what should fall into a particular section.

I am a genetic male crossdresser, but when I am fully dressed I take it as a compliment to be called a woman, because that is the way I am presenting and choose to be presenting at that time. Surely, any transgendered person, at whatever end of the spectrum, should be treated respectfully and addressed as they themselves choose to present.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Sorry but of course it does.

I've read through your posts and its clear you do NOT understand the difference between sex and gender identity. The women here who identify as a woman are no less valid then your wondering if there is something between cross-dressing and being a transsexual. At least try to have a bit of compassion.

[ReineD]

So if we're if we're not woman, and we know we're not men what do you think we are? I'm speaking of those of us that are trans-women.

It's generally difficult for people to understand those who are different than they are. Most people don't have a frame of reference for things they haven't experienced or witnessed themselves. Have you considered posting in this forum's section for trans-women, with like-minded spirits?

https://www.crossdressers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?12-Transsexual-Forum

Or maybe this section?

https://www.crossdressers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?99-TG-Gender-Non-Binary

Why don't you read a page or two of threads in each of those sections to see which you feel most comfortable identifying with.

[Tracii G]

I had a feeling this thread would end up like this.

[Paula DAngelo]

Have you considered posting in this forum's section for trans-women, with like-minded spirits?

Why don't you read a page or two of threads in each of those sections to see which you feel most comfortable identifying with.

Reine,

I know what I am and what other trans-women are, we are women. That question was aimed at a members who kept insisting that we aren't women. It was an attempt to get them to think and state what they thought we are.

[Nastasha]

Paula ... stay, please.
Words are just that, the only power they have is what you give them. People get REAL brave from behind a keyboard.
You are who you are, just as we are who we are. Everyone is different aren't they? Hair color, eye color, skin tone, weight ... but we're all still people.
If someone has a problem with you or what you do ... that's their problem. I am not here to please anyone, and could not care less if someone doesn't like me or what I do.

What and who are you? To me you are Paula, plain and simple.

[t-girlxsophie]

1 of my dearest friends is transitioning, and I have many aquaintances who are trans women or men, and would defend them to the hilt. Its so sad that you even needed to start this thread,

I hope and believe most on this site are decent, understanding people who have nothing but respect for Trans Men and Women... though after reading the thread fully I'm not so sure now

Sophie

[DaisyLawrence]

Sophie said it all for me really. I would say this however: there are lots of people on this site that I profoundly disagree with on many levels. Sexist and misogynistic views are common and yes I have seen trans-phobia but also many more examples of homo-phobia. What I try to remember is that all human beings are different reagardless of whether or not they share something in common. The theme here is an interest in wearing womens' clothing and that ranges from the extreme sexual fetish at one end to the transexual at the other and that is about as varied a group of people that you can find in humanity as a whole. Consequently we are not all going to agree. For me it is a gender identity issue only and when I read the kind of stuff Paula refers to it dismays me but does not anger me as I am sure it is not written with malice. I assume that the things that Paula finds offensive were not intended to offend her when then were written. It was just an end result of maybe a lack of understanding, general ignorance of the issues, or an underlying internalised transphobia even BUT (and it's a big but) I do not subscribe to the theory that these people intended to offend. There is plenty of intentional offence banded about out in the real world, at least here the membership is open to being better informed by reading around the wise words of many of the members here.

Life is short people, try to see the good where it is and just ignore the bad, please.

Daisy

[Vicky_Scot]

Kelly I think with all respect you need to re-read my original post as I seriously think you missed the point I made. A person wants to be regarded a woman but does not help their cause by stating they are a trans-woman. Therefore by definition they are not regarding themselves as a woman. what is difficult to understand about that.

And just to put your mind at rest I DO understand the difference between sexuality and gender is but that is not the argument here.

[Kas]

Hi Paula,

Thanks for using my comment as one of your 3 examples (the middle one). You can think whatever you want in your own head, good for you, but show me a REAL lesbian (GG) who would be in a sexual relationship with a trans woman who has not undergone SRS. Being a lesbian is a SEXUAL orientation, not a gender. Gays like D, not V. Lesbians like V, not D. If they do, then they’re bisexual. Please stop confusing gender with sexual orientation/preference.

[RachelPortugal]

Kelly I think with all respect you need to re-read my original post as I seriously think you missed the point I made. A person wants to be regarded a woman but does not help their cause by stating they are a trans-woman. Therefore by definition they are not regarding themselves as a woman. what is difficult to understand about that.

And just to put your mind at rest I DO understand the difference between sexuality and gender is but that is not the argument here.

Why question the prefix trans- when used by a transgendered individual and not when "genetic" is used in front of girl or the initials GG are used by an individual born female?


Hi Paula,

Thanks for using my comment as one of your 3 examples (the middle one). You can think whatever you want in your own head, good for you, but show me a REAL lesbian (GG) who would be in a sexual relationship with a trans woman who has not undergone SRS. Being a lesbian is a SEXUAL orientation, not a gender. Gays like D, not V. Lesbians like V, not D. If they do, then they’re bisexual. Please stop confusing gender with sexual orientation/preference.

Many years ago, my wife and I visited a sex-shop in Brighton which was aimed at lesbian/female clientele, indeed males were only allowed in one particular showroom when accompanied by a female. We went into that showroom and were confronted by a huge selection of dildos and realistic strap-ons. Proof positive that some lesbians like D, even if it is of the artificial variety.

[Vicky_Scot]

Rachel I have never met a woman in person who was born a woman and refers to themselves as a Genetic Female.

[RachelPortugal]

Rachel I have never met a woman in person who was born a woman and refers to themselves as a Genetic Female.

Vicky, "Genetic Female" is not a term I used, it sounds just as ludicrous as "Trans-female" which, I believe, has not been used, but you only have to look to one of the contributors to this thread. Reine, a member of the "FAB - female at birth" forum, uses the term GG - genetic girl under her name. You can't argue that it is just the abbreviation GG, because many crossdressers among us often just use the abbreviation CD.

[Sarasometimes]

I think on occasion there are critical and somewhat demeaning comments made by a minority of posters in all forum sections (where i'm allowed) on occasion. I think they occur most often when the poster appears to be posting in a section they don't seem to identify with. Purely an example: a Binary individual posting in Non-binary. This is purely an observation not a justification by any means. There is no excuse to demean anyone!
Everyone has their opinion of gender, for me, I'll refer to people the way they wish to be referred and in the absence of a clear signal, I would ask.

[Ressie]

Maybe I'm getting the wrong impression from what I'm seeing but it does make me question if it's worth staying around and being insulted.

I don't know how much you have been around here. I'm saying that because your join date was 2012 and you only have 185 posts in six years. You probably missed many other threads that turned out to be CD Vs TS. I don't make posts in the TS section and from my observation it's very rare for any CD to do so. But TS post in this section quite often. That's a positive thing until these disagreements come up and someone feels offended.

[Paula DAngelo]

Ressie,
You're right my post count isn't high, and you want to know why? I've found you learn more if you keep your mouth shut, or in the case of this forum, your fingers still, and pay attention to what others are saying/posting. If I post it's because I have something that I feel is material to a thread, and if it's already been said I won't repeat the thought. Unlike others I don't post just to say things so that my post count goes up. Something to remember is just because someone isn't posting all the time doesn't mean they aren't actively following the forum. As far as missing threads, I doubt that I've missed many in the six years that I've been here as I'm on almost every day reading and hopefully learning.

This whole thread was never started as a CD vs TS thread. It was started because I was noticing what appeared to me to be a growing trend of statements being made that could be taken as offensive and insulting to a sub-group that I am part of. Are there other sub-groups that may feel this way, I would have to say yes based on PM's that I have received so it's not just me or one specific sub-group that feels this way.

The whole point of this thread was to try and get members to think about what they are posting and how and can affect others before clicking on the "Post Reply" button.

[Ressie]

Thanks Paula. There are some here with strong opinions and see some things in black and white. And I'm afraid your asking them to think before responding won't stop them from sharing their strong opinions. But thanks for speaking up.

[sometimes_miss]

It seems to me that we're back into arguing about labels. Paula, if you want us to call you a woman to your face, we will. We'll call you whatever you want. but if you want the world to consider you a woman just the same as one who is born female, it's not going to happen, as much as we all wish it could.
Hormones, surgery, nothing will change what we are. Labels won't change what we are.
I can insist that I am a dog, I want to be called a dog, treated as a dog, allowed to behave as a dog, etc.. But few are going to be willing to adopt me, take me for walks, feed me, let me poop on newspaper in their basement, or to pet me and rub my belly in order to get my hind legs going, well, because I'm not a dog to the rest of the world, no matter what I tell them.
You are a MTF TS. Don't get upset if that's what people believe you are, and have trouble dealing with it. In YOUR mind, you're a woman. In everyone else's mind, you're a MTF TS. Which is just fine. And it's YOU that has to come to understand and accept, that there's nothing wrong with that! Insisting that you're not what you are, because it makes YOU feel uncomfortable, is not everyone else's problem. It's yours. We can try to make you feel better about it, but that won't change how most of the world thinks of you. Better to accept who and what you are, and be comfortable with it.
I'm a crossdresser. I admit that and have to live with it. I've accepted it. Be who you are, and don't try to take someone else's label, you know, like how the fat people stole the 'curvy' adjective because they didn't like being called fat.
I'm also fat. I'm not 'big boned', 'husky', etc.. I'm fat.
In the end, we are what we are, and trying to change the words won't change anything.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Rachel I have never met a woman in person who was born a woman and refers to themselves as a Genetic Female.


Used frequently in MTF circles, short for “Genetic Girl” or “Genetic Woman.” A “female born female.” . There are many Women on this forum who have referred to themselves as Generic Female or gg for short. Some even use the term in their alias.

[Terrylynn]

I think it's understood by most people that a woman is defined as an adult female (XX) which is objective rather than subjective. I would imagine that men (XY) who identify as women would give varying explainations as to why they identify as women. So my question is; what are the characteristics they possess that makes makes them women? As a CD I understand the desire to express femininity but, for TS persons, there must be something more to identifying as a woman.

[ShelbyDawn]

Paula,

Don't give up on the forum. It is full of truly wonderful people that will be there form you and love and support you no matter where you fall on the gender identity spectrum.
Understand that forums like this do not have context. Often the intonation or intent of what we read is what we bring to the table. Sometimes not and it can be obvious and hurtful, if you choose to let it be.
A past mentor of mine used to tell me that other peoples opinions of me where none of my business, "It's just not your garbage.' was how she put it.

I can't quite know exactly how you feel but as a "man in a dress", (no choice here, it's just the way it is) I have been on the outside of many conversations and comments by those whose only goal is to pass perfectly, every time or there's no point in trying. I do my best to understand their point of view and move on knowing that tomorrow, I will see something that I need to see or that will make my day.

Again, this forum is a wonderful place full of wonderful people. I hope you hang around.

[sometimes_miss]

I think it's understood by most people that a woman is defined as an adult female (XX) which is objective rather than subjective. I would imagine that men (XY) who identify as women would give varying explainations as to why they identify as women. So my question is; what are the characteristics they possess that makes makes them women? As a CD I understand the desire to express femininity but, for TS persons, there must be something more to identifying as a woman.
Terrylynn, if you want to know what characteristics define a woman (and it may vary with each woman for herself), the one obvious one is, grow up as a girl, with girl parts, and with girl experiences. You can't get that with boy genitals. If you wish to learn more about personality differences between the sexes, perhaps some light reading by Barbara and Alan Pease will help (Here, pick one: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=barbara+and+alan+pease ).
They explain many of the ways that men and women think differently, communicate differently, and even how they see the world differently, that are natural differences between the sexes. While I'm sure that some MTF's will grab that information and try to change themselves to 'fit' into what they now have learned is a 'more female' behavior and way of expressing themselves, it's sort of only like practicing to get rid of an accent. What's underneath, is still there. They're actively suppressing it, the same way that one might work hard to develop a feminine sounding voice; the male voice is still 'the default' unless we intentionally change it (FTM's don't usually have this problem, because of the actual structural changes that come with exposure to testosterone, but it doesn't work the other way around for MTF's). Hormones can work wonders to change feelings, but the underlying male mind is still there.
The XX chromosome combination is only part of it. What defines someone as a woman to the world is, or has always previously been, having the phenotype (all physical structures of the body) of a female. At least upon birth. You will find the rare female who is born without a vagina, for example. Then you have the intersexed, who may have some combination of male/female genitalia, sometimes resembling more of one than the other. There are those who appear physically male with XX, and those who appear physically female with XY. Rare, but they do exist, so the old belief that if you're XX you're always a female, and if you're XY you're always a male is simply wrong. But you'll still see a lot of people who appear to have had their scientific education halted in 6th grade, who refuse to admit that there is more to learn, that insist that's still the case.
Perhaps the argument that may be offered best, is this: How many 'genetic' girls do you know of, that grew up with a penis, testicles and scrotum? Because growing up as a girl with girl parts, being treated as a girl, with all the experiences of growing up a girl, is a big part of being a woman.
How do I know. Well for one, I read a lot, and I listen to women A LOT. And .....because I was a BOY growing up with all male parts, thinking that I was actually supposed to be a girl. And it seriously messed me up forever. Sure, I can function well enough, most of the time. But there will always be that screwed up part of me that causes turmoil under the calm exterior. The end result is, I'm not a normal man, nor a normal woman, personality wise, and I never will be. I don't know what it is to experience life as either. I can study it, observe it, wish for one or the other, but neither is available to me. As hard as life has been, I still consider myself lucky that I have been able to still function without the almost crippling GID that some have to endure. I can't imagine what that is like.

[ReineD]

I know what I am and what other trans-women are, we are women. That question was aimed at a members who kept insisting that we aren't women. It was an attempt to get them to think and state what they thought we are.

I understand, but I don't think you can expect all members who don't identify as women to understand how you feel. But generally, the people who post in the other sections I linked to don't identify as men and so if you hang out in those sections, there will be no one to convince.

[redtea]

Trans-women aren't "cis"women.

That's not my opinion, that's just truth.

[Sarasometimes]

redtea, I don't think the question was are trans-women cis women. It was are they women in a broader sense., which in my definition they are.

[Rachel05]

I would think it is the minority and in all walks of life there is always a minority that seem to spoil it for the majority

We are all here because we are perceived as different to society norms, or at least that is the way I see it, I love to cross dress and I have no drive to ever be a woman full time, but even in our supposed more open society, if my friends knew what i liked to do in my spare time then some would be supportive and some would be downright rude about it, I can hear the dissenters now

I like to come here because largely it is a safe place to come and we can be who we want without fear of people looking down their noses at us, we are all here because we are different in some way and I think speaking for me personally, because i know about me and what I like and accept that I am different from the perceived norm then it gives me a more relaxed and accepting outlook

One of my closest friends knows about me and so does my female partner and my ex wife, my friend never mentions it and she has not treated me any differently from the day I told her

you stick around and enjoy the majority of this forum that needs you to be here to share your experiences with the rest of us

It was a fantastic day for me when I found this forum, somewhere safe to go and share with others like me

And for the record as far as I am concerned if you have transitioned to be a woman then you are a woman and I would treat you as such

[CynthiaD]

This whole thing is actually pretty simple. What are you, a man or a woman? You are whatever you say you are. If you say you're a woman, ok. You probably know a lot more about yourself than anyone else, so if you say you're a woman, you are a woman. If you say you're a man, same thing. If someone disagrees with you about what you are, you really don't need to pay any attention to that. When it comes to who and what you are, you're the expert, nobody else.

[Anne E]

Hi Paula,

Thank you for being here.

Anne