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Emily Occasionally
11-21-2018, 12:37 AM
So I was driving home from work today thinking about dressing and what I was going to wear when I got back...and I was pondering why crossdressing isn't excepted in society...you know aside from the obvious reasons that we all talk about. The thought occurred to me that other activities which might have a stigma attached to them have either become acceptable or are sometimes acceptable and sometimes are not acceptable but are ultimately are an accepted part of our society. For instance gambling or the idea of society shaming women while at the same time celebrating the same behavior on television and so on. When I realized what many of these activities have in common which crossdressing doesn't seem to have.

These activities which were either once unacceptable and now are or vacillate between acceptability and unacceptability can be monetized in some fashion or another. Someone profits from them. With gambling for example it's obvious where profit comes in, the house always wins and all that. The media profits from displaying, either in TV shows or in print, the activities of the rich and famous, sexual and otherwise.

When it comes to crossdressing however it would seem to me that no one truly profits in a monetary way. Yes, we might buy clothes and make up and shoes and other feminine items but if all male to female crossdressing were to stop tomorrow and not ever crossdress again (God forbid :))...the amount of money that we put in to the companies would be negligible in the grand scheme of the profits of the companies whose products we buy.

It seems to me that society at large has no reason, to embrace the concept of men wearing women's clothing.

However there is another side to that which I can see...the lack of influence of money from the outside means that crossdressing is a pure form of expression. While the outside world might not accept crossdressing fully at this point in time there is at least a tacit understanding that crossdressing is something that is out there but to the large majority of people it is a bit of an unknown since most people only have what they see in the media to have a connection to it. For example portrayals of crossdressing played for comedy purposes like the TV shows M*A*S*H and Bosom Buddies just as two examples while there are numerous others those two are what popped in my head while writing this. Usually crossdressing is shown to be something that is other and that "regular" or "manly" men can't possibly get caught up in "that kind of thing"...like the bar room scene in Crocodile Dundee where the titular Croc is shown grabbing the testicles of a man in women's clothing. The whole scene is played for laughs but it's really dark and disturbing when you look at the reality of such things. The point is that crossdressing (and being transgender...I'm not even going to go down the rabbit hole that is the utter lack of Female to Male transgender characters in media played for comedy or otherwise. The closest that media seems to be able to come is butch lesbians but they aren't the same thing at all even if media conflates them just like it conflates crossdressing men with gay men and male to female transgendered people. All of this is another discussion entirely but part of the reason I bring it up is that I find these things insulting not just as a fellow human being but as a writer as well...to ignore these kinds of people, use them as cheap jokes, or just pretend they don't exist, is to me beyond ignorant. These groups all deserve to have stories told about them in a serious manner.) is something that is so foreign to "normal" males and "normal" society that it could only be used for humor. The only way that many people understand crossdressing is as a joke rather than just a small part of a whole person.

Back to my point about purity of expression. The crossdressing community doesn't have the same kinds of issues that other groups do. We have a kind of freedom that other groups lack. Yes, there is shame and stigma but since we are basically seen as unprofitable we are left alone to do what we please for the most part (yes I know it is very difficult in many parts of the country for crossdressers but I'm speaking in general and maybe, it must be admitted, overly optimistic terms). There's no agenda and since there's no agenda there's no message that can be used by outside forces for their profit. This is what I mean when I talk about purity of expression. The only limits to crossdressing are imagination (and budget I suppose). The only ones to profit from crossdressing are the crossdressers who like doing it. So if crossdressing crossed (pun intended) into the mainstream in a larger way, that purity of expression could be lost in the crossing.

What do you all think?

Beverley Sims
11-21-2018, 01:42 AM
If there was money in it for some entrepreneurs it may be a little different acceptance wise.

docrobbysherry
11-21-2018, 01:46 AM
I think you're all over the map. That your post touches on too many points but makes none!:heehee:

However, I must disagree with u saying the media thinks of us only as "funny" with no other interest. If I had a nickel for every time someone mentioned CD's and Buffalo Bill. Talk about dark and evil!
Then, there's my experiences with the media. In the documentary I appeared in and several TV interviews that resulted from that, no one was interested in hearing that I am a CD and wear masks and appliances simply to appear female. That part of the interviews always were cut. They wanted to hear about fetishes and if sex is involved! They were looking for the sensational. Not the ordinary. That's how the media sells their products!:straightface:

Micki_Finn
11-21-2018, 03:00 AM
Your thinking is backward on one issue at least imo. There IS a buck to be made off crossdressing. You speculate that the fiscal contribution of crossdressing is negligible, but I say that’s a RESULT of it being taboo, not a cause. How many of the girls on this forum would go out and shop or go to bars or whatever if it was acceptable.

Think of the gay community. In the 50s there was virtually no money to be made off of gay culture. It didn’t become OK to be gay because someone figured out they could open gay bars and sell rainbow flags. Those things happened because it became OK to be gay.

Teresa
11-21-2018, 03:21 AM
Emily,
Nice idea of pure expression because it's not through monetary gain .

Again I can see the differeces between the US and the UK in some of your thoughts . The LGBT and TG communities are being viewed far more as a commodity , it may be a minority vote but they still chase the votes . It's like most things we may be a minority but there is a community of non Cders around us that do support us .

Since being out full time , I don't believe there is the hate group we all imagined , it's a thoughtless minority who just don't accept most things on principal .

DaisyLawrence
11-21-2018, 04:24 AM
Your thinking is backward on one issue at least imo. There IS a buck to be made off crossdressing. You speculate that the fiscal contribution of crossdressing is negligible, but I say that’s a RESULT of it being taboo, not a cause. How many of the girls on this forum would go out and shop or go to bars or whatever if it was acceptable.

Think of the gay community. In the 50s there was virtually no money to be made off of gay culture. It didn’t become OK to be gay because someone figured out they could open gay bars and sell rainbow flags. Those things happened because it became OK to be gay.

:yt:

Nice post but I'm afraid I've got to go along with Micki. Doc has a point too, sex sells but the normalisation of men dressing as women has too little sensationalism attached to it to generate mainstream interest.

GretchenM
11-21-2018, 07:25 AM
I have to agree with Daisy, including the quote from Micki. You do have some points, but I think they are a very minor influence. It goes far, far deeper than economics. To me it goes to the fundamental concept of self and what crossdressing means in that sense. I think most people in the US, at least, don't get the idea that sex and gender are very different things with only weak linkages. They are learning and, at least in my community, the media is doing a lot to help people understand that the behavior is harmless and it is just the way some people are wired. And I have to agree with Teresa in regard to there apparently being a big difference in acceptance and tolerance of crossdressing between the UK and the US.

I suspect that difference exists between the US and most countries in Europe where people in general are more accepting of differences. It helps to live in smaller countries with individual differences in culture. People are exposed to so many variations. They just learn that acceptance of differences is a good thing. Here, many of our states are larger than some European countries and our regions are huge by comparison. So exposure to different modes of thinking is harder to come by.

Thoughtful post and it does contribute a new element into the puzzle that I certainly never thought about.

Aunt Kelly
11-21-2018, 07:52 AM
It is very simple. All forms of gender non-conformity are not accepted for two reasons, fear and ignorance. Those two things have been "profitably" exploited by certain groups, but exploiting fear is a common tactic, as old as the hills. Enlightenment is the way to acceptance, of course, so how to make it profitable to no longer be ignorant?

kimdl93
11-21-2018, 08:08 AM
Media and politicians profit from feeding our appetites for food and sex and exploiting our fears... lots of money has been made selling transgender people as curiosities, objects of derision, or threats.

Asew
11-21-2018, 10:35 AM
I think it might be a factor, but not a main reason. I mean why does society seem more accepting of various sexual orientations versus various gender orientations? I think the general public understands that people can only be attracted to certain people and not attracted to others. But regarding gender identity, they have a hard time accepting the why.

Stephanie47
11-21-2018, 12:11 PM
When it comes to money, i.e., spending available dollars it is no more than a mathematical equation: $A = $B = $C. If you do not spend it on one thing, then most people will spent it on another. So, the womanly purchases I made only detract from something else. My wardrobe includes hundreds of panties, hundreds of slips, more bras than any woman would need; 162 dresses, and so on. No firm needs to advertise to I as a cross dresser. I am doing my part to keep the woman's clothing manufacturers in business.

When it comes to cross dressers in entertainment, yes, most of what I see an attempt at poor humor (my opinion). Yes, in comedy. There have been some movies, but, not that many. At least the visual media I have seen tries to deal with transgender women and men in an informative manner. My local television stations of occasion have had news programs on transgender issues for kids as young as preschool.

I have a little trouble with the concept of cross dressing being related to 'purity of expression.' You make it sound as if this feeling within me is nothing more than an art form.

Rayleen
11-21-2018, 12:20 PM
As Crossdressers and Trans increase in popularity, suppliers will get richer like Amazon and other internet clothing stores.

Being more open, it will increase tendency to express more the feminine side .

Emily Occasionally
11-21-2018, 07:19 PM
I want to start by saying that I meant no offense to anyone of any group and I wasn't trying to say that any one group has it tougher than others. My post was to explain a thought I had...and I did a poor job translating my thoughts to the page in this case. In my enthusiasm to create a discussion I might have inadvertently offended people and I'm sorry if I did. I'm still new to all this and got a bit excited to share a thought that might have been maybe 3/4ths baked. The concept of even myself accepting that I am a CDer is still relatively new to me...and well I hope folks can forgive an excited CDer who is only just starting to meet her true self.


I think you're all over the map. That your post touches on too many points but makes none!:heehee:

However, I must disagree with u saying the media thinks of us only as "funny" with no other interest. If I had a nickel for every time someone mentioned CD's and Buffalo Bill. Talk about dark and evil!
Then, there's my experiences with the media. In the documentary I appeared in and several TV interviews that resulted from that, no one was interested in hearing that I am a CD and wear masks and appliances simply to appear female. That part of the interviews always were cut. They wanted to hear about fetishes and if sex is involved! They were looking for the sensational. Not the ordinary. That's how the media sells their products!:straightface:

Yeah you're right...it was a bit of a stream of consciousness at midnight kind of post. I can for sure see that I didn't actually come to any conclusions.

You're also right about Buffalo Bill and say Norman Bates as well. Again stream of consciousness and lack of planning this post out completely are to blame for this oversight on my part. Yes they are evil characters both (in part) based on a real person named Ed Gein...if anyone is squeamish I must stress that you do not look in to his crimes as they are horrific. Hollywood didn't even scratch the surface of his evil. So I must revise my statement that the media only sees CDers as funny. That oversight of these characters is completely my fault and completely unintentional.

Your last point, Doc, gets to part of what I was trying to say...general acceptance by the public at large brings with it a whole lot of pit falls.


Your thinking is backward on one issue at least imo. There IS a buck to be made off crossdressing. You speculate that the fiscal contribution of crossdressing is negligible, but I say that’s a RESULT of it being taboo, not a cause. How many of the girls on this forum would go out and shop or go to bars or whatever if it was acceptable.

I agree with what you are saying here, Micki. 100% And you are very kind to say that I'm only backwards on one issue! I still have a lot to learn.




Enlightenment is the way to acceptance, of course, so how to make it profitable to no longer be ignorant?

That is something I was trying to take a stab at saying. Thank you for picking up my fumble.



When it comes to money, i.e., spending available dollars it is no more than a mathematical equation: $A = $B = $C. If you do not spend it on one thing, then most people will spent it on another. So, the womanly purchases I made only detract from something else. My wardrobe includes hundreds of panties, hundreds of slips, more bras than any woman would need; 162 dresses, and so on. No firm needs to advertise to I as a cross dresser. I am doing my part to keep the woman's clothing manufacturers in business.


I have a little trouble with the concept of cross dressing being related to 'purity of expression.' You make it sound as if this feeling within me is nothing more than an art form.

Well you have both a point and a lot of dresses there.

I wasn't actually trying to say CDing is an art form and I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "nothing more than an art form". I do believe that there is some artistic element or at the very least a form of creativity at work when it comes to CDing. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that a person could be a work of art if that's what you think I was saying. I was trying to say something about enlightenment, as Aunt Kelly helpfully said. What I should have articulated better is that from what I've seen in the CDing community (and I will readily admit to not having seen everything) there is little in the way of competition or trying to one up each other. There's a level of understanding on the part of everyone I've come across that everyone is trying their best. Everyone is encouraged to move at their own pace and there are always words of encouragement being shared. I was trying to articulate the clarity of the honesty and love shown by members of the community to their other members. How without outside influences CDers are able to be more free to express themselves within the community (even if some of us are still closeted in our everyday lives). This isn't to say that other communities don't have this kind of love for one another since of course they do. Ultimately I was referring to the kindness that has been shown both to me and others in the community. I suppose I should have said a purity of spirit rather than expression...that might have been clearer. The point I was trying to make is that when things are influenced by outside sources then that purity of spirit can be lost.

kimdl93
11-22-2018, 01:26 PM
No need for apologies. We all wrestle with understanding ourselves and with how partners, friends, work associates and larger society respond to us. Hypotheses are welcome, as should be reactions to those proffered. Of all humanity, one would hope that transgender people would be receptive to testing various points of view. Alas, we humans tend to fix our ideas and resist anything that challenges comfortable assumptions. I am as guilty as any.

Roxanne Lanyon
11-22-2018, 01:36 PM
Art Form? Oh, I wish I were as pretty as a picture in my lovely dress and heels! If only "he" would notice!
Roxanne, Heart in Hand