Crude comments from a man

[Yinlingyen]

I was out shopping (I chose a less crowded part of town when I am fully dressed to avoid problems) , but I was completely taken a back this time.
I wore the heels as shown (and for those who know me from this forum and has seen how I dress a times - more provocative type) I have had both compliments and cat calls. But this time as I was walking from my car towards a shopping area I noticed a man sitting on a bench with a beer in hand.
Flags started going up in my mind so that I was cautious not to go too near.
But as I walked past I heard a comment that did not immediately strike me as to the meaning of it. But it dawned on me quickly as I thought about it for a couple of seconds.

He said "Bet those heels spend more time pointing up than down".

I was very scared at that moment and made a quick entrance to the shopping area. I did not buy anything. I went around the back towards my car again to avoid him and drove to another part of town. At that moment my heart was the size of a melon !!!

I guess a close call.... and some may even say what else do I expect dressed like that.

[abbiedrake]

Not pleasant, OP. Not by any stretch.

However, I can't get behind Daisy's comments. They're too perilously close to blaming sexual assault victims. "Well, you dressed like that!", "You were asking for it.", "It couldn't possibly be HIS fault because look you could see the beer. HE wasn't responsible, so you should have been.". SMH.
Perhaps OP should take it as a compliment on passing. Or celebrate it as part of an authentic female experience? Yes. Of course, sarcasm. Please also watch for the utter absence of 'No offence, but...' in the next sentence...
Shrugging off rampant, ubiquitous misogyny as 'meh, reality' is what allows such insipid behaviour to continue unabated all the way to SCOTUS. (And top levels of government and business here in the UK, lest anyone think I'm anti-American. Which would be odd since my wife's a Floridian.)

[Charlotte7]

I guess a close call.... and some may even say what else do I expect dressed like that.

Ok, let's look at the situation from the victim's point of view. They did nothing wrong. Let's look at the situation from beer man's point of view. The fault lies entirely with him.

When it comes to sexual assault, even when that assault is verbal, victim blaming is wrong, every time and on every level.

Victim blaming is one of the biggest reasons that rapists walk free.

[DaisyLawrence]

No no and double no. I'm sorry Charlotte and Abbie, I did NOT victim blame in any way. I simply stated the reality of the world and made it clear that the man behind the comment was a stupid misogynist. I made it clear he was in the wrong but as I live in the real world I am not surprised he behaved in such a manner. That is NOT the same as saying Yinglingyen is wrong or to blame in any way, to say it is is offensive to me. Knowing how some other people think is not victim blaming. Women learn this the hard way and have to allow for the stupidity of people in their choices of where to go and what to wear. Is that right, no of course it isn't but it is reality and reducing ones chances of being raped is commonsense because these men exist whether we like it or not. :Angry3:

And since people can't understand simple English, poof the reply has gone. Free speech?

And Abbiedrake, why would you refer to my reply and then put a load of quotes in speech commas in a way that infers I made them when in fact I did not, not a single one?

[JayeDee]

Hello, Lin
I would say that "congratulations" is in order. Not only were you passable, but you were also quite attractive. Consider the source of the snide remark, and discount it. ... but take the attention as a compliment. (As the saying goes, if 1 person says something, 10 people thought it.)
Can I borrow those shoes? :-)

[abbiedrake]

@daisy "Well, racism exists. Shrug. What yer gonna do? Just deal, I guess."
I think Charlotte and I would happily agree that that you didn't directly condone beer man. But suggesting that women change their behaviour to circumvent misogyny IS a way of indirectly condoning it.
My wife has been raped. She was not dressed provocatively, but yes, was predictably victim blamed.
I have been beaten up and was victim blamed because I'd had a drink and it was dark. Not dressed, mind you. Just some scum decided to kick off. The police advice? 'Don't go out at night.' 👍Thanks a million.
That it's 'reality' that criminals are opportunists doesn't make their behaviour any less criminal. Regardless of what the victim does. It has to be challenged unequivocally otherwise our wives, mothers, daughters, sisters will never be safe.

As for your offence at mine and Charlotte's comments, well, that's reality, isn't it? It's your fault for saying what you did.
See how well that works? Real but unpleasant. You don't feel like you deserved it. Neither did OP.

[DaisyLawrence]

Well Abbie you don't get it. I find such behaviour abhorrent and probably more so than you and if you'd been here longer you would know that. I also couldn't agree with you more that it is never the victims fault but people live their life in the real world and make choices everyday to reduce risk. I was beaten to a pulp once in a city centre when I was a student because I was guilty of being alone in the wrong place at the wrong time, nothing more. The perps were entirely at fault but that doesn't change the fact that I was still beaten up. If my son wanted to go to the same place alone in the early hours of the morning I would advise him not to. Should I, after-all if he gets beaten up the perps are entirely at fault and he is blameless so maybe I shouldn't have an opinion. Trouble is, and this is the difficulty, in this scenario he is still beaten up and whose fault it is doesn't change that reality one tiny little bit now does it. So advising the use of commonsense for ones own safety and victim blaming are TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT ANIMALS and until people realise that they may well be putting themselves at increased risk.

[deebra]

I agree with Daisy, well said. Yinling love your shoes, you have the right to wear them just as much as a woman. If you were showing boobs like in your avatar scale it back. Don't let this stop you from going out just dress to not call attention.

[abbiedrake]

Dressing to draw attention is NOT a crime. Even boobs fully out is NOT a crime here in the UK. Public 'indecency' is a crime but then a court must ascertain intent.
Sexual assault IS a crime. Regardless of state of dress or undress.

[DaisyLawrence]

Thanks for the education but I guess we all knew that maybe.

Now since you are so knowledgable please tell me if either of these statements is not true:

1. Dressing to draw attention is NOT a crime.
2. Dressing to draw attention might increase ones risk of being a victim of crime.

You know, my friends sister who was raped and then murdered regrets not walking home with her on the night in question and has done everyday for the last 33 years. It's not her fault that her sister was murdered and her sister shouldn't have needed an escort but you know what, that doesn't make it any easier to live with. And that, abbiedrake, is reality and sometimes it stinks.

[abbiedrake]

True statement 3. Never leaving my home again might reduce the risk of assault.

Burqas maybe? Since we're gonna simply accept that those men will always exist. (It'd make CDing easier.)
I've not once argued against sensible risk reduction. Neither had Charlotte.
This 'discussion' stems from your now- absent tacit agreement with OP's comment "some may even say what else do I expect dressed like that". Victims blame themselves (as OP kinda did). Agreeing with that is victim blaming.


See also: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/15/thong-protest-in-belfast-raises-concerns-over-trials

[Di]

Of course we should be able to dress any way we want! No one is arguing that!
But just know Women Always Have The Burden Of Being Careful!
They have that burden because they have learned and understand not to can end up really bad for them.
Is that fair? NO but I am here to tell you that IS how women have to live.
I would never go to a area where there are not many people or dress sexy except maybe a club and I would have someone walk me to my car.
None of this is is fair or right but it is how woman have to think for their own safety.
Be careful ladies!

[DaisyLawrence]

This 'discussion' stems from your now- absent tacit agreement with OP's comment "some may even say what else do I expect dressed like that". Victims blame themselves (as OP kinda did). Agreeing with that is victim blaming.

Well that's the whole point isn't it abbiedrake. The OP commented "some may even say what else do I expect dressed like that" because that is exactly what she was expecting herself. If you dress for attention you'll get it, it doesn't matter if you like it or not, it doesn't matter if it's rude or illegal, you still get it. If I dye my hair green I'll get attention and I may well be laughed at. Some people think green hair is laughable, fact not opinion. If I do it and it happens I'm not going to complain and say you have no right to laugh at my green hair because the reality is that I'm intelligent enough to know that some people think a middle aged man with green hair is laughable. You can say to me "what else did I expect?" and my honest answer would be that in my real life existance where there are not unicorns at the end of rainbows I fully expected that I would be laughed at even though I wouldn't laugh at anyone else for their hair colour choice. So yes I tacitly agreed with the OP's statement because she and I and everyone else living on the planet knows there is some truth in it. That is NOT victim blaming and accusing me of doing so is still offensive. But not half as offensive as it is to my friend who campaigns for women to take steps to protect themselves so that they don't end up a murder statistic like her sister. Oh and by the way, there was no victim blaming at his trial, he went down for life but guess what, on his first day release from prison after 10 years he murdered another woman.

At least Di understands it. But then she is a woman without the priviledge of a male safety blanket. I think one of the most annoying things about this forum is how a bunch of men who like to play dress up think they know what it's like to be a real woman in a testosterone dominated world. Well they don't.

[Teresa]

Yin...,
Sadly you attracted the wrong audience , sometimes it happens ! Lets face it he could have been dishing comments like that wholesale to most GGs that passed , in that case you were the lucky one as he read you as female .

OK it wasn't a pleasant remark , with time you'll learn to ride over them , I know you went out dressed that way for some fun sadly it turned sour , next time you could be having a laugh with a comment from a stanger .

Thanks Di , in other words be sensible and dress appropriately and learn when to dress it up or down . I guess it's what label you choose to go out wearing !

[Beverley Sims]

Hello, Lin
I would say that "congratulations" is in order. Not only were you passable, but you were also quite attractive. Consider the source of the snide remark, and discount it. ... but take the attention as a compliment. (As the saying goes, if 1 person says something, 10 people thought it.)
Can I borrow those shoes? :-)

I would agree here, I know it is outrageous but that is what attractive women have to battle through daily.

[Yinlingyen]

I'm sorry if my post here has created any animosity.
I was not looking for that. I just wanted to share my experience in this great and loving forum.
I was not wearing the dress in my avatar nor did I wear my silicone forms.
I wore a padded bra under a one piece dress that was a few inches above the knee so I was perhaps looking sexy
But not slu@@y.
I thank all those who took their time to reply to my post as it shows genuine concern for me.
love you all,
yin

[t-girlxsophie]

Oh and by the way, there was no victim blaming at his trial, he went down for life but guess what, on his first day release from prison after 10 years he murdered another woman.

There's the failure of the British justice system right there.Life=10 years :angry:

Sophie

[Aunt Kelly]

Fact: Dressing provocatively will draw unwelcome attention.
Fact: Nobody should have to receive such unwanted attention.

Observing that the former is true does not negate the truth of the latter.

[DaisyLawrence]

There's the failure of the British justice system right there.Life=10 years :angry:

Sophie

Sophie, I'd tell you more but your inbox is full!

[Maria in heels]

Thats what happens when someone is drinking beer during the day and just sitting on the bench...no class and just a low life drunk

[Jean 103]

Hold on.

Drinking beer, outside on a bench. Outside a shopping area.

So what kind of people engage in this behavior?

You are going to live your life according to what street people think?

Depending on where you live street people are a fact of life.

I for one am not going to live my life by what these people think.

I understand if you don’t have a lot of experience with this kind of situation.

Most of these people are harmless, but it is best not to trust any of them.

Don’t even think to challenge me on this. I know some of these people.

You could call the police. Drinking in public is against the law in most places. Here they will just give him a ticket and make him go somewhere else. Pretty much a waste of time.

[docrobbysherry]

Here's the deal, I've been there:

In a crowd of folks the guy was likely flirting with u, or just drunk and shooting his mouth off.:drink:

But, when you're off all alone u feel threatened! :eek:

My answer is to stay away from possibly threatening vanilla venues at nite and never go alone!:thumbsup:

[LilSissyStevie]

The difference between me and this lowlife is that I would have just thought it and kept my mouth shut.

[Tracii G]

Daisy and Di make good points even if you don't like to hear what they had to say.
Sure what the guy said was wrong we get that but that is the reality of life.
Yes you can say its wrong and it shouldn't be like that and sure you would be right again but the reality is its not like that in the real world and you have to deal with people like that.
Don't live in some fantasy world deal with reality and don't get all butthurt when reality steps in to wake you up.
Dressing how you want is fine we get that but use your brain and realize dress like a streewalker expect to be treated as one.
And again I agree it shouldn't be that way but it is.


PS disclaimer: I am not saying YOU were dressed as a street walker It was using that term metaphorically.

[JenniferMBlack]

A guy drinking beer in the day time on a bench at a shopping center makes a rude comment. Is anyone really surprised? I dont condone it but I am not going to pretend it doesn't happen. Fact is if you go out dressed you may get rude comments, be it sexual or just mean. Is it right no but it happens and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Most poeple have enough civility to not say things but there are those who don't.

Or maybe he just thinks you store you shoes upside down.

[Robertacd]

Well as creepy as it is, you should still take it as a compliment.

As you must have passed or his comment probably would have been much more crude.

[Devi SM]

I haven't read the other comments in this thread but honestly you're overacting a bit like you're surprised whit the man's comment. I think, if that was true, that you should feel complimented and not insulted.
One more thing, in Spanish there ie a said, the guilty does belong to the pigs but to who feed them. (I hope it makes sesnse)
I've seen some of your post and the way you like dress is openly provocative sexy and sensual.
I don't condem you. I was there before too. I can imagine the rest of the attire. If you add the breast plate and a tight miniskirt the scenario is that you're asking it.
I saw in one of your threads no so long that you were thinking on transition. I have bad news for you, no everything in the life of a woman is sex. More than that, in many women, transwomen, sex plays a small role.

[Patience]

I didn't hear how those words were said, obviously, but I got the feeling that the beer you saw him holding wasn't his first one that day.

What a way to experience the kind of vulnerability women feel as a matter of course. Some of us can only dream of experiencing that aspect of femininity, for better or for worse.

Nobody should feel discouraged from presenting themselves how they see fit; but on the other hand, people must accept that for every choice they make there is a price and there's no way to separate one from the other.

[Alice Torn]

You were maybe the most attractive woman he had seen in a long time, and those heels would turn any head. Some guys are so starved for attention, let alone sex, that a beer will loosen their tongue, when they see someone pretty strutting by. It is not right though.

[Lydianne]

Guys of this type need to be removed from the Earth.

1. I once got called "tramp". I caught it on video. You should not take his comments as a compliment. We can't desire the equality with women to wear their clothing and then turn into guys when this stuff happens. Inconsistency will lose us support. You need to dismiss his comments with the same disdain as if he has said them to a woman... i.e. a slur on her fidelity.

2. We all know what should happen, and we all know what does happen. This knowledge does not infringe on your freedom to make any choice you wish. I would think your personal safety is more valuable than your valuables. I am in no doubt that you keep your valuables airtight...
I understand that sometimes we want to wear something special. When that's the case, then there is the option to adjust venue and accompaniment to compensate and reduce risk.

It would be so nice if we could eliminate the risks, but that remains a hope.

- Lydianne.

[GaleWarning]

Lydianne, you speak much sense on a thread fraught with hysteria.
Well done.

[Stephanie47]

Not too long ago I watched a video of a young woman walking down a city street. She was minding her own business. She was not dressed provocatively. Her companion walked in front of her with a hidden camera recording the insulting comments of a sexual nature for quite a long time. She was nice looking. This is the life a woman endures in our society.

If you think this just happens to women, it also happens to guys. Maybe not as much and not as brazen. When I was twenty-four and just out of army I was at my military weight (175 pounds) at six foot two. I was traveling on the #7 IRT Flushing line to a job interview in a suit. Minding my own business. I guy came up to me and offered a sexual service." Only in New York! Another time a guy made an advance unseen by me on the same train line, but, this time I was accompanying with my eight month pregnant wife. It was obvious my wife and I were to together. Rude and crude is all over. My wife endured the same the OP did many times in her late teens and early twenties. Totally unsolicited sexual comments while minding her own business in mid town Manhattan.

[Charlotte7]

Lydianne (#30), yes, that's what I wanted to say, particularly your point 1, which is lost on very many peope here.

[faltenrock]

Sorry that this happened to you.

I once got a bad comment as well. I was at a party at Triangles, which doesn't exist anymore. A guy watched me and asked 'Are you a top or bottom?'....

I thought that was pretty bad as well.

[Princess Chantal]

Interesting that many folks take it as “passing”, however the comment was probably to project the stereotype of crossdressing of being for a sexual purpose.

[Helen_Highwater]

One of the yardsticks I use to judge these things by is if you were walking a few yards behind your SO or your daughter and I guy made an obviously demeaning remark to them how would you react?

I seriously doubt that you'd consider that the guy was complementing your SO/daughter.

If that's the case then if such a remark is made to you when dressed then you should view it in the same way. If you take it as a complement upon your ability to "pass" then I'm sorry to say you're part of the problem. It you're condoning sexism and bigotry.

This isn't a witty chat up line from beer guy. It's a demeaning, belittling remark showing contempt for women.

[abbiedrake]

One wonders what beer man would have made of a comment based on his appearance. You know, along the lines of 'Your liver must cry itself to sleep'.

Also, perfectly put Helen.

[Vickie_CDTV]

I don't know where the guy was relative to where you were walking to, but I would have gone the long way around him. You identified a potential danger, which is good. Avoid going near threats like that, if possible.

The comment does not mean she passed. He could have read her and just wanted to make a rude comment. Either way I wouldn't be flattered.

[Krisi]

Guys of this type need to be removed from the Earth.

Seriously? If everyone on this earth was allowed to remove everyone he or she disagreed with, there would be no people left on this earth.

Let's be real here. What the guy said was crude but by no stretch of the imagination does it rise to the level of capital punishment. It wasn't even a crime. We are allowed "freedom of speech" in this country even if others don't agree with what we say. If you encounter speech that bothers you, ignore it, go away and don't come back or tell the person you don't like what he or she said. If we're going to leave to comfort of our homes and go out and face the public, we're going to have to learn to deal with the public, good and bad.

[Jean 103]

If you think this just happens to women, it also happens to guys.

Yes it happens to me in guy mode too. I have been propositioned by men and women it guy mode too. Wearing a t-shirt and jeans. None of them were drinking beer. Some people? It is just part of life.

You can do as I do and ignore these people. If not possible like a customer I simply say I'm married. I had one women then say I am too. I didn't say anything else.

You could do like my oldest daughter. She would have torn him a new one. Her mouth is completely uncensored. She will tell you exactly what she thinks. She will even cross the street like if some guy from a construction site whistles. Really you do not want this crazy redhead in your face.

[ClosetED]

Sorry this happened Yin and thank you for sharing this incident.
It would not happen to any person, but unfortunately it does. It is inappropriate to be referring to a stranger's imagined sexual habits.
You can view it as passing as he did not seem to offend you differently than a GG.
What is the best response to this inappropriate behavior? Capital punishment? Physical attack? Snappy comeback? Call the police? Or just ignore it. You moved away quickly, possibly giving him some satisfaction he got to you. Did you really feel he might directly interact with you?

We can turn this thread into a discussion to prepare others for a similar situation and the best way to handle it.
I vote for ignore it unless he followed you, then I am not sure of the next best step - yell out for public awareness of the unwanted attention or try to move off quickly. Depends on your comfort level with public scrutiny.
Hugs, Ellen

[Lydianne]

Seriously? If everyone on this earth was allowed to remove everyone he or she disagreed with, there would be no people left on this earth.

Let's be real here. What the guy said was crude but by no stretch of the imagination does it rise to the level of capital punishment. It wasn't even a crime. We are allowed "freedom of speech" in this country even if others don't agree with what we say. If you encounter speech that bothers you, ignore it, go away and don't come back or tell the person you don't like what he or she said. If we're going to leave to comfort of our homes and go out and face the public, we're going to have to learn to deal with the public, good and bad.


Guys of this type need to be removed from the Earth.

1. I once got called "tramp". I caught it on video. You should not take his comments as a compliment. We can't desire the equality with women to wear their clothing and then turn into guys when this stuff happens. Inconsistency will lose us support. You need to dismiss his comments with the same disdain as if he has said them to a woman... i.e. a slur on her fidelity.

Cheers :thumbsup:,

- Lydianne.

[Maid_Marion]

Last time I was at a convention center I escorted a GG to her car as we were part of the event clean up crew and the parking lot was nearly empty. Can't be too careful these days.

[AngelaYVR]

I was called a wh*** once...by a middle age woman. All for the crime of wearing a knee length skirt and, presumably, just being me. The guy in the original post was a bell end and so was my interlocutor with the inferiority complex. Just walk on.

[Amelie]

Not too long ago I watched a video of a young woman walking down a city street. She was minding her own business. She was not dressed provocatively. Her companion walked in front of her with a hidden camera recording the insulting comments of a sexual nature for quite a long time. She was nice looking. This is the life a woman endures in our society.

If you think this just happens to women, it also happens to guys. Maybe not as much and not as brazen. When I was twenty-four and just out of army I was at my military weight (175 pounds) at six foot two. I was traveling on the #7 IRT Flushing line to a job interview in a suit. Minding my own business. I guy came up to me and offered a sexual service." Only in New York! Another time a guy made an advance unseen by me on the same train line, but, this time I was accompanying with my eight month pregnant wife. It was obvious my wife and I were to together. Rude and crude is all over. My wife endured the same the OP did many times in her late teens and early twenties. Totally unsolicited sexual comments while minding her own business in mid town Manhattan.

I know that train. Took it many times from Jackson Heights to the city. I had a guy sitting across from me on that train doing something I can't write here cause it would get deleted. As long as he stayed in his seat I didn't care.

I can't tell you how many times I run or have run into these situations. It happens almost every time I go out and it's not a nice feeling. In NYC guys always come up to me with crude remarks and it doesn't matter what I am wearing. Even as a youngster guys said the same stuff to me. Bad men are bad men, it doesn't matter how one looks and dresses they are bad men.

There were times at night in NYC when I turned a corner and down the block a bit was a bunch of guys coming my way. I would turn around and walk the other way. If they yelled at me I would jump into a cab and take it for a few blocks, pay him and get out and continue walking home. There were times when I was off guard and a guy managed to follow me to my building vestibule. I wouldn't open the door with my key, I would ring my own bell knowing there would be no answer and walk away and come back later on.

You got to learn how to handle yourself in these situations. The word I use is street smarts. Sometimes it happens so much you get a "spidey" sense that it's going to happen when you see a stranger coming up to you. You can feel a bad situation before it gets to you. That's why some women cross the street when they see someone they don't trust standing up the street.

[Crissy 107]

Amelie, You nailed this, I could not agree more. Good post!

[Alice Torn]

Well said Krisi. If we could hear audibly what other people are thinking, the world would be empty of humans soon, as we would all be at each others throats. Its bad enough, the way things are!

[MonicaPVD]

Rule #1: The world is full of assholes. Look at the bright side, you aren't a woman who has had to deal with this kind of nonsense on a daily basis.

[Tracii G]

I was called a fat ass today so I said thanks so much for noticing and continued shopping.

[Jodie_Lynn]

OK, drunk guy on a bench makes an inappropriate comment. Scary, truly, since I've had the same thing happen, although it wasn't in front of a mall.

On the plus side (kind of) was the fact that he didn't call you out with the usual homophobic slurs. He was, in fact, complimenting you (in a lewd crude way) by intimating that you are so desirable that you spend a lot of time on your back.

Please note that I am NOT condoning this behavior, but it could have gone a lot, lot worse.

[Roxanne Lanyon]

I know that train. Took it many times from Jackson Heights to the city. I had a guy sitting across from me on that train doing something I can't write here cause it would get deleted. As long as he stayed in his seat I didn't care.

I can't tell you how many times I run or have run into these situations. It happens almost every time I go out and it's not a nice feeling. In NYC guys always come up to me with crude remarks and it doesn't matter what I am wearing. Even as a youngster guys said the same stuff to me. Bad men are bad men, it doesn't matter how one looks and dresses they are bad men.

There were times at night in NYC when I turned a corner and down the block a bit was a bunch of guys coming my way. I would turn around and walk the other way. If they yelled at me I would jump into a cab and take it for a few blocks, pay him and get out and continue walking home. There were times when I was off guard and a guy managed to follow me to my building vestibule. I wouldn't open the door with my key, I would ring my own bell knowing there would be no answer and walk away and come back later on.

You got to learn how to handle yourself in these situations. The word I use is street smarts. Sometimes it happens so much you get a "spidey" sense that it's going to happen when you see a stranger coming up to you. You can feel a bad situation before it gets to you. That's why some women cross the street when they see someone they don't trust standing up the street.

I would admire a little attention occasionally, but not like that! I am so glad I do not live in that city! Asweet smile, a little flirt, even a suggestive wink would make me a happy girl, but not actions and words like that! I want to have a happy, feminine experience!
Roxanne Lanyon