Is Simple Ignorance to Blame?

[Lacy PJs]

From time to time, I wonder why the general public sees crossdressers as being gay. A lot of literature about CDs and most certainly a huge percentage of videos out there portray us as homosexuals.

While statistics for such sensitive subjects tend to be sometimes questionable, from what I've read, the general consensus is that approximately 10-12 percent of the general population is gay and that same percentage holds true in the crossdressing community. Why the general public misreads the rest of us seems to be a real mystery.

For me, I'd like to read a story or watch a movie/video of a heterosexual couple who accept each other for who they are in all situations, whether that is out in public for those who are courageous enough to venture out, in the privacy of their own home or in sharing intimacy with each other. That type of material is pretty hard to find.

Lacy PJs

[Helen_Highwater]

Lacy,

The simple answer is yes, it's ignorance. However, if those who go out, me included, attempt to present as femme as possible, mannerisms, voice etc, then femme translates to effeminate in the eyes of some observers and that for them equals gay, 2+2 = 5.

[Tracii G]

Its the old thought that any self respecting man that wants to act like a woman has to be gay or he wouldn't do it.
The point is most gay men when you get down to it don't want to act like women and find it a bit repulsive.
Leaving the fact that most CDers love dressing and emulating women not for sex but because they love women and are not gay in the least.
The general public knows very little about why straight men crossdress so they assume they are doing it for sexual reasons which is far from the truth and that why we as CDers or trans people need to educate the people when we come in contact with them.
Not force our lifestyle on them but just answer questions as to why we do what we do.

[Wildaboutheels]

The REALITY of today is visible everywhere by ever increasing acceptance of alternate lifestyles INCLUDING alternate means of presentation.

I watch very little network TV. However, 3 of the shows I DO watch seemingly go out of their way to give a FAIR/varied representation of gays AND/or Crossdressed/flamboyanty dressed men. AGT, Naked and Afraid and Survivor. In fact, just 2 nights ago, on the LIVE finale show of Survivor on Wed. night, 2 men shared a quick simple kiss and the audience acceptance was overwhelmingly wildly and completely POSITIVE. In fact, Survivors' very first season (of 37 continous ones) winner was an openly gay man who on at least one occasion referred to himself as "the fat gay guy". I can't recall even one season when they did not have at least one openly gay man or woman or at least a closeted one. Many of these gay men and women were some of the most polished, intelligent and well liked of all. Some returned in other seasons.

Today, more than ever, the signs of acceptance are everywhere IF one is willing to open their eyes and minds.

The SECRET to acceptance is posted at this Forum almost daily.

OWN your "presentation" (NO MATTER WHAT IT IS ) act normal/don't skulk around, and treat others with the same respect you would like to be treated.

[Robertacd]

Pretty simple for the simple minded.

Women dress the way they dress to attract men.
Therefore:
Men who dress like women are dressing to attract men.

So the answer is basically yes.

[Joyce Swindell]

I can't wait to see them put CDing in the school system..... maybe under the sex education Pat?

[Gillian Gigs]

From my point of view Robertacd sums it up about right. Most gay men are not the way that most of the public thinks either, lesbians too. It only takes one or two stereotypical examples to cement wrong thinking into the general publics mind. Just look at a CD porn site to see where the public gets it's thinking from about CD'ers.

[GeorgeA]

I think Tracii G explained it best.

[Tracy Irving]

Since gay men like men, one would be better served to dress like a man to attract one. Dressing like a woman to attract a man who likes men makes no sense.

Perhaps some in the general public feel a gay relationship includes both a masculine and effeminate man. They then misinterpret the latter to be a crossdresser...

[docrobbysherry]

Remember, the "general public" doesn't personally know gay men or trans! So, why wouldn't they think that? Because it makes sense! :straightface:

When I began dressing out of the blue at age 50? I thot I had turned gay!:eek:

[Alyssa Lane]

Pretty simple for the simple minded.

Women dress the way they dress to attract men.
Therefore:
Men who dress like women are dressing to attract men.

So the answer is basically yes.

Yep, too many never think on there own. Unfortunate really.

[abbiedrake]

I'd (of course) agree with you all that ignorance is to blame. But it's not 'simple' ignorance. This is complex, interwoven, weapons-grade ignorance we're talking here. 😁 To arrive at 'CDs are gay' you have to accept any number of unfounded suppositions about sexuality and gender and clothing and then carefully prop them against one another to build a teetering edifice that's as fragile as your ego (usually male, let's face it). It's really quite difficult. Though obviously not nearly as difficult as actually thinking things through and realising that 'CDs are gay' makes no sense.
Poor people. If they had gunpowder for brains they couldn't blow their noses.

It's funny but back in the day I tried sex with a man. Didn't work. 😄 I'm not attracted to men, I was just curious about the act. It wasn't worth it. But crucially neither did it make me want to put on a dress. 😬

[Teresa]

Lacy,
It's an old media stereotype , all too often we are depicted as camp and gay with a gathering of male admirers . There are films availabe this question comes up faily often so the titles are in the archives . The Danish Girl is possibly a reasonable one to watch .

At the moment my wife is living with the thought that I'm either dead or should have come out as gay ( a good friend suggested that to her .)

We have to take care because being gay is perfectly acceptable and not something to be suffered which is sometimes the tone that comes through , it's not for me but like many people have some lovely friends who are gay .

[SaraTV]

Lacy,

The simple answer is yes, it's ignorance. However, if those who go out, me included, attempt to present as femme as possible, mannerisms, voice etc, then femme translates to effeminate in the eyes of some observers and that for them equals gay, 2+2 = 5.

I think it's a little more complex than that, although not much. I think the thought process for an observer is not so much 'gay', but more along the lines of "that person seems to be a woman... or at least they are trying to be. I've been trained my entire life to think that women are attracted to men. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's probably not a goose. i.e. If it's trying to be a woman, it must like men... right???"

At least, that's how I imagine the thought process to go.

[Maid_Marion]

We see media stereotypes because for many years media was run by older white guys who made choices that would perpetuate the stereotypes.

Crazy Rich Asians is a good example. They wouldn't cast Asians actors/actresses as leads in Romantic Comedies, yet this film made a whopping 173 million on a budget of 30 million!

But, CDs are also to blame, as the secret keeping of many allows the stereotypes to continue. How would a GG know the truth if her boyfriends never told her?
Or, what should she reasonably conclude based on her interactions with many men? And those of her friends.

[deebra]

Could clothing designers/manufactures help with this. Start making men's clothing with a feminine touch such as tighter form fitting pants very close to female pants and modeled on a nice looking male model. They are always looking for a new style to make money. A woman dressed in low heels, pant suit and blouse looks very nice, maybe something similar to this for men marketed as unisex. If this caught on just buying and dressing in female clothes would be the next hurdle. If Lacy is right 10 to 15 % of the population are crossdressers then would this give us an opening to make some yardage??

That said most think Lacy's % is high; wouldn't it be great to be just another customer in the women's department.

[sometimes_miss]

why the general public sees crossdressers as being gay
We wear clothes and foundation garments, and make up, that are all designed to accentuate the female shape, which will make them more sexually attractive to men. And more than a few of us carefully try to emulate female voice, female body movements, which also are things that attract males. So it's pretty simple, really.

[Wildaboutheels]

FACT: There are no Humans who can read minds although a good magician/illusionist can make it look like they can.

FACT: Claiming to know what Joe Doe Public is thinking is mere speculation. No matter how many here claim to "know" what the public is thinking, doesn't make it true.

FACT: It's supremely easy to see and document the physical reaction (their body language) of JD Public when they see a CDer of some flavor out in public.

Pop quiz.

IF they do a brief one second glance and go on with their mission, what were they THINKING?

IF they look for 2 seconds and go on about their day, what were they THINKING?

IF they look for 5 seconds with a big smile on their face, what were they THINKING?

Repeat after me. The ONLY way to know what they are thinking is to approach and ask them and hope for an honest answer. Or, they approach you and tell you what they are thinking.

[Beverley Sims]

Ignorance for sure and also a lack of interest for others.

[Shelly Preston]

I don't know if its ignorance or they fact they just dont understand us due to the varied nature of this community.


FACT: There are no Humans who can read minds although a good magician/illusionist can make it look like they can.

FACT: Claiming to know what Joe Doe Public is thinking is mere speculation. No matter how many here claim to "know" what the public is thinking, doesn't make it true.



Even with speculation you have to be correct some of the time.

[Lacy PJs]

Could clothing designers/manufactures help with this. Start making men's clothing with a feminine touch such as tighter form fitting pants very close to female pants and modeled on a nice looking male model. They are always looking for a new style to make money. A woman dressed in low heels, pant suit and blouse looks very nice, maybe something similar to this for men marketed as unisex. If this caught on just buying and dressing in female clothes would be the next hurdle. If Lacy is right 10 to 15 % of the population are crossdressers then would this give us an opening to make some yardage??

That said most think Lacy's % is high; wouldn't it be great to be just another customer in the women's department.

My original post included the following:

While statistics for such sensitive subjects tend to be sometimes questionable, from what I've read, the general consensus is that approximately 10-12 percent of the general population is gay and that same percentage holds true in the crossdressing community. Why the general public misreads the rest of us seems to be a real mystery.

To clarify, I am not trying to say that 10-12 percent of the general public are crossdressers but rather that within the crossdressing community, 10-12 percent are gay. I'm not sure where I read this but do remember seeing somewhere that there was no greater percentage of gays in the crossdressing community as there was in the general public. If I wasn't clear, I do apologize.

Lacy PJs

[MarinaTwelve200]

[QUOTE=Lacy PJs;4316867]From time to time, I wonder why the general public sees crossdressers as being gay. A lot of literature about CDs and most certainly a huge percentage of videos out there portray us as homosexuals.

/QUOTE]

It has been my experience that even many adults define a homosexual (gay) as "A man who thinks he is a woman"---the general "kid's definition". Lots of people never bother to look up the subject in books and rely on their equally ignorant peers for their sexual information. A guy who does ANYTHING like a woman (especially dress) is labeled "Gay". Being attracted to, or having sex with men, is not the primary determinant to them, "Just ANOTHER thing Gay's do".-------So it is little wonder we are often accused of being GAY.

I would agree with the 10-15% populating being CD, but The real gay population is closer to 3 1/2% close to "1 standard deviation" (no pun intended ;) ) The general anomaly rate for biological systems. Gay numbers are inflated for political purposes.

[Alice B]

No matter what liturature there and, it does little good if it is not seen and shared. No matter how many books,videos and movies there are. What we need if some blockbuster movie in a documentary form to have a positive effect on the general population.

[Aunt Kelly]

It is so true, that the general public is, by and large, ignorant of even the most basic truths about those of us on the TG spectrum. I don't know what percentage of them make no distinction between us and our LGB friends, but I would love to know. While I am throwing around acronyms, I'll note that the use of LGBT does not exactly help. Such use inevitably leads to conflation and confusion. Even some of my gay acquaintances display a marked lack of understanding sometimes. Don't get me wrong. That much larger community is a powerful ally, but their agenda differs from ours when one gets down to the details.

It's an uphill battle, right now. Fear and ignorance go hand in hand, and that makes it easy to exploit those things for various purposes. Still, I believe that most people, when exposed to the truth, tend reach their own conclusions. We can, each of us, contribute to the "normalization" of our lot. Yes, there are those whose views and behaviors work against that, but even they have the right to express themselves as they choose. I just wish that all of us would take a larger view on what will take for all of us to get the acceptance we all want.

[Tracii G]

Since gay men like men, one would be better served to dress like a man to attract one. Dressing like a woman to attract a man who likes men makes no sense.

Perhaps some in the general public feel a gay relationship includes both a masculine and effeminate man. They then misinterpret the latter to be a crossdresser...

Thanks Tracy......... this exactly ^^^^^^^^
Even CDers have trouble grasping this concept.
If I walked in my local gay bar enfemme I would not draw any male attention.
Some gay men aren't real keen on crossdressers so keep your wits about you.

[Miss V]

Not really "ignorance". More of a lack of knowing.

And to be fair, there are some pretty "ignorant" posts on here about gay men (Especially gay crossdressers). But again. It's more a lack of knowledge, than ignorance.

[MonicaPVD]

MissV: the definition of ignorance is literally "lack of knowledge or information." We tend to assume that ignorance = stupidity. Not exactly. So, yes it is ignorance.

- - - Updated - - -

There's such a wide variety of personal experiences that it's silly to generalize. However, we humans are hardwired to generalize and stereotype. It's part of our instinctive fight or flight response. There are just as many hypermasculine gay bottoms as there are heterosexual crossdressers. I am a very flexible bisexual crossdresser and I'm ok with that.

[Miss V]

MissV: the definition of ignorance is literally "lack of knowledge or information." We tend to assume that ignorance = stupidity. Not exactly. So, yes it is ignorance.

I am aware of this, but it's become one of those words that people associate with "dumb/uneducated" people. Often used by the media to belittle opinions.

[Aunt Kelly]

I am aware of this, but it's become one of those words that people associate with "dumb/uneducated" people. Often used by the media to belittle opinions.

And with good reason. The uneducated are ignorant about many things. That's not to say that educated people aren't ignorant, but when the adjective fits, it fits. And yes, the media often belittles opinions which are based on ignorance of plain facts.

[BettyMorgan]

Why the general public misreads the rest of us seems to be a real mystery.

Lacy PJs
When you speak from a place of ignorance, you are bound to say something ignorant.

What the general public doesn't quite understand is that there is a difference between sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression. Most CIS gender, heterosexual people believe that the genitals you are born with is the same as your gender, and thus, you should be attracted to the opposite. Heteronormativity. However, with 7 billion people (and many more ancestors), we all don't fit neatly into the male/female, man/woman boxes. The are an infinite number of benign genetic variations in humans, and that includes variations their orientation, identity and expression. The general public will eventually come to understand that there is nothing abnormal about being trans, or a crossdresser, or whatever you identify as. That will take time and education.

[Sarah Doepner]

Over the years the main media/entertainment representations of a man wearing woman's clothing served the following purposes; 1) He is gay, 2) he is there for comic relief, 3) was a drag queen, or 4) he is mentally disturbed and probably a killer.

We live busy, complicated lives and shortcuts to our thinking allow us to spend more time paying attention to the things closest and most important to us and our families. Since there were few, if any, alternative explanations most people were satisfied with what had been laid our for them. A few viewed transexuals as an extreme case but were few and far between. The few "safe" places for crossdressers to gather were in gay bars and nightclubs, further strengthening the stereotype. As Gay and Lesbian groups and individuals began to take their place in the mainstream, transgender people were left aside mostly in the closet or if they were in public have been clinging to gay and lesbian political coattails.

Finally, prior to just a few years ago around 1% of people even knew a trans person. While that has improved significantly we are left still attempting to help the general public understand that sex is between the legs and gender between the ears.

So yes, the best we can hope for with many people is to have them accept us as gay, there are worse options until we can train them otherwise.

[Alexis00]

Over the years the main media/entertainment representations of a man wearing woman's clothing served the following purposes; 1) He is gay, 2) he is there for comic relief, 3) was a drag queen, or 4) he is mentally disturbed and probably a killer.

We live busy, complicated lives and shortcuts to our thinking allow us to spend more time paying attention to the things closest and most important to us and our families. Since there were few, if any, alternative explanations most people were satisfied with what had been laid our for them. A few viewed transexuals as an extreme case but were few and far between. The few "safe" places for crossdressers to gather were in gay bars and nightclubs, further strengthening the stereotype. As Gay and Lesbian groups and individuals began to take their place in the mainstream, transgender people were left aside mostly in the closet or if they were in public have been clinging to gay and lesbian political coattails.

Crossdressers being portrayed as psychopaths bothers me the most. Second most are people checking ID's at clubs who insist on calling you "Mr." when it's obvious you are presenting as female.

Great point about clubs accepting tgirls. We've become quite a bit more mainstream, especially as legislation has been passed in many states and provinces to protect t people. In Massachusetts now, you can legally choose "X" on your driver's license for gender.

For every hour I've spent dressed I've probably spent two hours talking about where t people in general and me in particular fits in the world. But my parents for example still feel crossdresser = gay.

[CynthiaD]

From time to time, I wonder why the general public sees crossdressers as being gay. A lot of literature about CDs and most certainly a huge percentage of videos out there portray us as homosexuals.

While statistics for such sensitive subjects tend to be sometimes questionable, from what I've read, the general consensus is that approximately 10-12 percent of the general population is gay and that same percentage holds true in the crossdressing community. Why the general public misreads the rest of us seems to be a real mystery.

For me, I'd like to read a story or watch a movie/video of a heterosexual couple who accept each other for who they are in all situations, whether that is out in public for those who are courageous enough to venture out, in the privacy of their own home or in sharing intimacy with each other. That type of material is pretty hard to find.

Lacy PJs

The public is unbelievably ignorant about almost everything. Let’s start with the 10-12% figure you quoted. This number comes from the Kinsey report. Even though it has been quoted many times, it is known to be seriously flawed. The correct number is about 2%. People get a lot of their impressions from TV shows, movies and books. But these things are not depictions of real life. They’re just expositions of the ignorance of the writers. Writers aren’t any less ignorant than anyone else. The portrayal of computer scientists is even more ridiculous than the portrayal of cross dressers. We computer scientists spend all our time sitting around “hacking into the CIA mainframe” right? I’ve been a computer scientist for over 50 years, and I don’t even know what that means.