Feminine vs. Female

[Cathy Anderson]

No doubt this has been talked of before here, but maybe it merits a fresh look.

Perhaps some of our confusion would be alleviated were we to have better terms, or better understanding of the terms we have.

Case in point - I suggest:

female/male = terms that relate to biological sex and reproductive role

feminine/masculine = relating to a qualities that are essentially different from femaleness and maleness.

For example, boldness is a masculine trait. Some men are bold. Some women are bold.

(Note in passing that we don't even have a general term for the feminine/masculine dimension. It's clearly not the same as sex. But I don't even think it's the same as gender. A bold female is not necessarily less female gender-wise.)

I think the confusion occurs for two reasons:

1. Similarity of words. "Masculine" and "male" are fairly different. But "feminine" and "female" share the "fem", which tends to imply a close, even derivative etymological relationship.

2. Statistically, females tend to have more feminine traits, and men more masculine traits. But this is a statistical, accidental thing. It is not essential to the definition of females that they have more feminine traits, etc.

So, partly what I'm suggesting is that we might be better off if there were there better terms for the feminine/masculine division--our whole view on gender, sex, CDing, etc. might be a lot different. For starters, it would not be assumed that a man who wishes to express feminine traits is female, or less male than others.

For exempt, in Taoism there is the notion of Yin and Yang—energies. As I understand them, these have basically little to do with biological sex. To say "this person has a lot of Yin" doesn't imply in any sense that they are un-male.

Again, what I'm suggesting is that our whole ability to think about these things is greatly limited by problem in the available vocabulary.

Anyway, thought I'd just toss this out for general discussion.

Cathy

[Jenny Warren]

Good point Cathy.

I tend to regard myself as either in male mode or in female mode.

Naturally, if I'm in female mode then I try to act and dress feminine, but while in male mode I feel that I am just as feminine, but in male clothes.

Having said that, I'm not really a 'macho' type of guy anyway. I don't like football, I don't play pool, and I don't drive a big 4X4 pick-up.

Last summer I was out with my parents, an uncle and aunt and another uncle, and the conversation between my mother and aunt was far more interesting to me than the one between my dad and his two brothers.

I often say I should have been born a girl, but I wouldn't want to be a woman. +?

I think being feminine for me is just doing what comes naturally.

Jenny

[Joy Carter]

You know I have always wondered about the men who over compensate in their behavors in doing male things. I know of a couple of crossdressers who one was a bar room brawler and the other was in specael forces in the milatary and a policeman. I have never had the erge to prove who I was and that has made some people to question my masculinity. I have always considered it quiet assertiveness my SO told me that was a quality she most admired in me.

[Lilith Moon]

Somebody rather famous on the public crossdressing newsgroups uses the following:

Gender:Masculine or feminine.
Sex:What you had between your legs when you were born, male/female.
Sexuality:What partners you prefer.

They are independant of each other and each one is on a spectrum.

Traditionally society expects us all to be 100% Masculine/male/heterosexual and Feminine/female/heterosexual but we all know that simply isn't so.

[Teresa Amina]

Somebody rather famous on the public crossdressing newsgroups uses the following:

Gender:Masculine or feminine.
Sex:What you had between your legs when you were born, male/female.
Sexuality:What partners you prefer.

They are independant of each other and each one is on a spectrum.

This is a pretty good way to describe it. Who is is that you are quoting and what newsgroups are they on? I'm new to these things and would like to know.

The problem with language in general, and all the more troublesome in "sensitive" topics, is that people use it instinctively and don't consider the meaning of the words they use. A good example is the common expression "could care less"; well what they really mean is they "couldn't" care less, but since everyone else says "could" so do they.

[livy_m_b]

A "feminine male" sounds much better than "emasculate" or "effeminate", but it still sounds too masculine! Seriously, I agree that a greater usage of "masculine" and "feminine" would be a good change. Years ago in a People magazine, there was an article about a french mtf transsexual with a boy friend about whom it was said something like: "She has a steady boyfriend who was attracted to her femininity." It seemed a very nice way to say it. In "The Crying Game", we can see the same concept illustrated in the story - in the end, the mtf tg wins the guy over by her femininity not by her physical self. It does say something important and it does it in a natural language way. But...I doubt if it'll be adopted any time soon.

[Lilith Moon]

This is a pretty good way to describe it. Who is is that you are quoting and what newsgroups are they on?
Laura Blake in alt.support.crossdressing, lately she has been using "dot" as her name.

[Taffy]

Somebody rather famous on the public crossdressing newsgroups uses the following:

Gender:Masculine or feminine.
Sex:What you had between your legs when you were born, male/female.
Sexuality:What partners you prefer.

Alternatively:

Gender: Between your ears.
Sex: Between your legs.
Sexuality: What you do with what's between your legs.
Sexual preference: What's between the legs of the object of your sexuality.

Taffy

[Cathy Anderson]

Having said that, I'm not really a 'macho' type of guy anyway. I don't like football, I don't play pool, and I don't drive a big 4X4 pick-up.
Jenny, it's interesting how you went so easily from discussing masculinity to macho, as though these are the same things. I'm definitely not criticizing--just observing. I believe a lot of people think that way, and this is part of the problem.

Consider the following hypthetical scenario:

1. A boy feels normal impulses to be masculine (let's wait before defining this).
2. The only masculine traits he sees expressed by males around him are the subset of masculine traits we call "macho" (trucks, beer, football, etc.)
3. The boy is not attracted to macho stuff.
4. He concludes he is not masculine.
5. He concludes, perhaps, he is lacking in something male.

Now consider that masculinity also includes a lot of positive traits: heroic, strong, unselfish, considerate of women, active, energetic, etc. So it might be different if a boy had a clearer understanding of the full meaning of masculinity. Or maybe he needs to see these positive male traits expressed by men around him.

Unfortunately, the movies and popular culture also emphasize the negative masculine traits.

Cathy

[Cathy Anderson]

Gender: Masculine or feminine.
Sex: What you had between your legs when you were born, male/female.
Sexuality: What partners you prefer.
I basically agree, but might want to expand things by separating what you call Gender into two things:

Gender role: whether you prefer to dress etc. as a male or female
??(need name): your ratio of masculine/feminine traits

This is important because a person can be quite feminine and have no interest in female clothing or playing formal female social roles.

Also, to further "complicate" things, I am partial to theories that suggest that there are two separate continua of masculinity and femininity. In other words:

masculine -- unmasculine
feminine -- unfeminine

Leading to say four combinations:

1. high male, low female
2. low male, high female
3. high male, high female
4. low male, low female

With 3. perhaps being the ideal.

Cathy

[Cathy Anderson]

A "feminine male" sounds much better than "emasculate" or "effeminate",
Livy, this is a good example and illustrates the point well. "Feminine male" sounds like a contradiction, when it's actually a quite ordinary combination of words, and also fits a category of man.

Mabye the actual concept this tries to express isn't to far from the word, "gentleman."

Cathy

[EricaCD]

Well, I certainly agree that we have some significant language limitations that impede even a semi-intelligent discussion of what is, after all, a fantastically complex subject. However, I would point out that the language has come a pretty long way in the 20 or 30 years since it became even remotely acceptable to discuss issues of gender identity outside a psychologist's office.

That said, I am all in favor of characterizing some of the cross-gender traits by using more precise terms. Of course, once we do establish a clear language for identifying sexual, gender, social and physiological distinctions, I will be short yet another excuse for not having figured out what kind of man I am and what kind of woman I seek to temporarily become!

[Casey Morgan]

Cathy, not to take this off-topic but one important thing to remember about Yin-Yang is that each has the other at its center. As I understand the concept it implicitly says that most things we see as "binary" (gender, love/hate, extrovert/introvert) really aren't.

Hmmm. Perhaps binary is itself not inherently binary. I'm just thinking out loud here so bear with me. Maybe binary is inherently unary. (Is that a word? What I'm getting at is, not two but one.) "Boldness is masculine". Maybe not. Maybe boldness is a unary trait. It simply is. Are you "bold"? If so what does that say about you other than you identify more as bold than not bold. Again forcing a binary existance on something inherently unary.

Bah. It's on the tip of my brain but I just can't get it. Sorry.

[Laurie Ann]

I believe taht I am a male trying to show feminity in a style of dress. I am not trying to be a female.

[Keri]

This was covered in a thread a while back and my post was as follows:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=107207#post107207

[Cathy Anderson]

As I understand the concept it implicitly says that most things we see as "binary" (gender, love/hate, extrovert/introvert) really aren't.Hmmm. Perhaps binary is itself not inherently binary. I'm just thinking out loud here so bear with me...
Is what you mean that you can see a binary distinction as binary, or you can see it as a single process or continuum?

Cathy

[Casey Morgan]

Partly that binary is actually a continuum in some instances and in some others a misapplied viewpoint. Using boldness as an example again, it's a continuum in that it's better measured on a scale rather than "is or isn't". But at the same time it's misapplied as a gender trait. Kind of the way sharks don't really belong on the "good or bad" scale. Boldness doesn't belong on a gender scale. Pehaps what we're actually talking about is masculine or feminine ways of expressing boldness.

Could that be the big problem? We're erroneously assigning traits to a gender scale rather than expressions of traits to gender scales? Somehow we've confused the expression of a trait with the having (not really correct but bear with me) of a trait. "This trait is expressed that way, so if you express said trait then obviously you belong in some part to a particular gender."

[Cathy Anderson]

Perhaps what we're actually talking about is masculine or feminine ways of expressing boldness.
Perhaps, though we have to be careful we're not really saying that a female can be bold -- which of course is true, but that could mean a woman can be masculine, which we already admit.

So what is the difference between a feminine boldness and a masculine boldness? -- maybe this is a good example.

BTW, I was a bit surprised to find that the dictionary defines masculine basically as "pertaining to males" and feminine as "pertaining to females." Which seems to go against our thesis.

Slightly better is the definition of yin = passive principle, yang = active principle.

Cathy

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Leading to say four combinations:

1. high male, low female
2. low male, high female
3. high male, high female
4. low male, low female


Actually the BEM androgyny test developed by Sandra Bem in the mid-1970s posited the same categories. TS Roadmap has a brief discussion (http://www.tsroadmap.com/mental/gendertests.html) of it and there's a more detailed explanation (http://www.garysturt.free-online.co.uk/bem.htm) of the original study here.

IIRC correctly, Bem called #1 "masculine," #2 "feminine," #3 "androgynous" and #4 "undifferentiated." Bem argues the androgyny allows for more situational flexibility.

The BEM test has been commonly used since then and IIRC good numbers of men and women fell outside the "masculine" and "feminine" categories. It is worth noting that BEM really is measuring conformance to social stereotypes about gender, which IIRC from Bem's writing she was upfront about. But subsequent research on Bem's theory has resulted in mixed conclusions. (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2294/is_n5-6_v28/ai_14154684)

For what it's worth, I think it's useful to distinguish between gender self-identity (i.e do you think you've got traits that society deems "masculine" or "feminine" and gender social-identity (i.e. what are the roles and treatment that you receive based on your perceived gender).

As far as language to describe this, Helen Boyd uses "butch of center" and "femme of center," probably from language used by the gender queer theorists. Which works, but probably isn't as clear to the general public.

As far yin-yang, anthropologist Charlotte Suthrell has some interesting points about this in her "Unzipping Gender" -- she saw it as one reason Indian/Asian cultures are more receptive to trans-folks, since their cultures don't have the binary concept of gender that Western cultures do.

[ericalynne]

my sex is male...my gender is female..i am erica in my very soul, dressed or not....kisses ericalynne
http://profiles.yahoo.com/missericalynne

[Cathy Anderson]

Actually the BEM androgyny test developed by Sandra Bem in the mid-1970s posited the same categories.
Right, I was thinking of Bem's work.


But subsequent research on Bem's theory has resulted in mixed
conclusions.
First, thanks for the link! Second, I'm not really convinced that this is so much an easily measurably construct, as much as a helpful theoretical or conceptual perspective. The essentialy "insight" IMO, is that we can see M and F as potentially two different continuua. That would certainly revolutionize how the common person views gender (e.g., all those gender tests, which place you on a single M--F continuum seem would be in question.) Empirical studies are limited by their ability to measure such constructs, and by their methods.


As far as language to describe this, Helen Boyd uses "butch of center" and "femme of center," probably from language used by the gender queer theorists.
Terms and framework, which, if I may be so bold as to suggest, limits what would appear to be otherwise good ideas she has. IMO gender queer and feminist literature seems very prone to an "us vs. them" attitude which is (1) unscientific in tone and (2) counterproductive.

Cathy

[sherri]

I'll leave the semantics - and I'm not using that term negatively, for it is important in this discussion - to you intelligent people. What's more important to me is practical application. Here's what I mean:

In outwardly manifesting my persona, in achieving gender equilibrium and in interacting with other people, it is not important to me to effect a transformation to the point of being undetectable. Perhaps I would care about that if it were practically possible, but it's not, so I don't know. Nevertheless, what I am feeling, what I am thinking and what I am expressing is a personality that is decidedly feminine; moreover, it is important to me that other people recognize that fact and interact with me accordingly, not in some strenuously artificial way, but certainly in a way that requires a paradigm shift in perception. What I'm asking them in a non-verbal way to do is perceive and deal with me more as a person than as a man or a woman, even if this person appears to be more feminine than masculine according to our cultural conditioning. And I think that many times that is exactly what happens - I have noticed that people who are non-judgemental do in fact interact with me in a way that is not as gender-weighted either way, and yet there is a certain softness and consideration in their tone and actions that's just not there when I'm dressed as a male.

However you define female and feminine, this person that I am, that hops in and out of men's slacks and women's skirts as necessity dictates and opportunity allows - well, who I am falls somewhere outside of just about every gender stereotype our culture has cultivated during my lifetime. So why is it so easy for me to adopt such psychological and behavioral aberrances? Why do I not experience the same sort of internal conflict others do? I think it's because I've been unconventional my whole life, even if I don't know, or particularly care, which is the chicken and which is the egg.

[Cathy Anderson]

In outwardly manifesting my persona, in achieving gender equilibrium and in interacting with other people, it is not important to me to effect a transformation to the point of being undetectable. Perhaps I would care about that if it were practically possible, but it's not, so I don't know. Nevertheless, what I am feeling, what I am thinking and what I am expressing is a personality that is decidedly feminine; moreover, it is important to me that other people recognize that fact and interact with me accordingly, not in some strenuously artificial way, but certainly in a way that requires a paradigm shift in perception. What I'm asking them in a non-verbal way to do is perceive and deal with me more as a person than as a man or a woman, even if this person appears to be more feminine than masculine according to our cultural conditioning.
Sherri--wow, what a great explanation! I think you really hit the nail on the head.

Cathy