Workplace hostility...

[Patience]

Hey, ladies.

As I have mentioned before, I am pretty open about my gender nonconformity at work. I’m usually wearing nail polish and sometimes I underdress wearing my breast forms, as well as wearing my clip on earrings and occasionally even lipstick.

I never felt I was being given a hard time for presenting myself in such a way, but the other day a coworker told me that an outside contractor (one of many we work with, as they are integral to our business) was in the habit of asking him where the “guy with the nails” was, saying it in an effeminate, jocular tone. Apparently, this happened enough times to the point that my coworker mentioned it to a supervisor, who in turn had a stern word with the miscreant, with a warning to stop behaving that way. I learned all this after the fact and never learned the identity of the person, but it’s clearly someone I know.

It feels good to know one works in an environment so accommodating. Just thought I’d mention it, as I only learned about it a couple days ago.

Does anyone else have similar experiences?

[Helen_Highwater]

Patience,

Much kudos to your colleague. When I worked we had a saying relating to things such a bullying that if you see it and doing nothing to stop it, you're part of the problem and not the solution. I suppose it's not that different than the saying, "For evil to prosper all it takes is for good (wo)men to do nothing".

[mykell]

good for your company, when my clothing proclivities caught up to me at the work place it was always the opposite....

[Crissy 107]

Patience, Good for your company to take your side with this issue as they should. Garbage like that being spewed needs to be stopped immediately. I get riled up hearing these things.

[Beverley Sims]

Patience,
It is good that your employer has taken your side and supported you.

A lot of companies still buckle under to the customer for all sorts of reasons.

Mainly money.

[RADER]

Patience;
You are a very lucky person to have a Employer that is a very friendly person.
So many are worried about some one who will show the Company in a bad or different way.
They should get an award for their positive thinking.
rader

[Asew]

My workplace prides it self on its LGBTQ+ pride. They even have a step by step guide about how to come out at work. I followed it and one of the steps was to contact your local support person so they can have a head ups and answer any issues. I asked about a local unofficial dress code. Well they never got back to me so I skipped to the next step of telling my manager. He said if anyone had an issue with it let him know and would take care of it. I only ever had one issue wear on my first day in a skirt a contractor outside smoking said "oh jesus" to the contractor next to him. Not a great start, but not an issue since.

[Leslie Mary S]

Some work places will back you if you are a desired, knowledgeable, key worker, that they need, but will try to find reason to let go a new hire for any reason If they do not conform to the company's unwritten social codes.

[docrobbysherry]

That could be a homophobe or just "locker room talk". But, neither r acceptable in this day and age!:Angry3:

Your company handled it well!:thumbsup:
You're lucky to work with such open minded people, Patience!:)

[Rachael Leigh]

I go to work dressing much the same and my work is very open to diversity so I’m ok in that respect but I do know from
others that things are said about me out of ear shot. For me I don’t care and honestly I dont get why people even care, I’m
just me.

[Tracii G]

The company did the right thing.
As an employee I stood up for a whse worker that some had found out had dressed as a woman for Halloween.
I also stood up for two others that were gay but not totally out.
The boss thanked me for standing up for those people and their rights as employees.
I caught hell from some employees ( truck drivers) and I told them if they had a problem contact me away from work and we can hash it out.None stood up to my offer.

[Angie G]

It good they stand up for you. I pretty sure that they by new laws cant go against the way you dress. :hugs:
Angie

[Jodie_Lynn]

The company did the right thing.
I caught hell from some employees ( truck drivers) and I told them if they had a problem contact me away from work and we can hash it out.None stood up to my offer.

That's because they were afraid of getting their behinds kicked by a girl! :)

Good work standing up for your co-workers! :thumbsup:

[Hell on Heels]

Hell-o Patience,
Having just finished our mandatory workplace sexual harassment training...
Your employer is obligated by law to take all appropriate steps necessary to provide an harassment free workplace.
If they had done nothing after this had been reported they could be held liable for any claims brought in a hostile workplace lawsuit.
Title VII of The Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Regardless, it is nice to know they did the right thing.
Much Love,
Kristyn

[Pumped]

You are fortunate to have supportive employers. I don't believe mine would be supportive at all, regardless of any law that said otherwise. Things that have been said over the years, gay comments and the like seem to prove so.

[Rachelakld]

I work with a person who has been on hormones for 12 months now and is trying really hard to pass as a female.
We get out of town occasionally as a dynamic duo, and the surrounding branches are getting to know just how smart she is to such a point we are getting more requests than ever before to assist.
Some clients find it a bit of a surprise, but she soon has them wrapped around her fingers.
It's all in the approach

[GretchenM]

It is such a joy to hear about these kinds of protections are actually being implemented in the workplace so that those of us who happen to be "a little different" are protected from the worst. Those of us who have been around since the 40's and 50's are well aware of how terrible it was in the past. You had to be as careful as a spy on a really dangerous assignment or, like the spy, you could end up dead. That is still a problem in some places, but it is so beautiful to hear of the success stories. It shows the world really is changing, step by step. Still have a long ways to go, but when I think back it blows me away how far society has come in recognizing people don't come out of behavioral molds like toys from a plastic injection molding machine.

[alwayshave]

Patience, its great that your fellow employee and management support you.

[BrendaPDX]

Your companies response was textbook perfect, as well as your coworker. You are very fortunate to have such a good and healthy work environment. Thanks for sharing.

[Stephanie47]

Whether the Civil Right Act of 1964 covers transgender men and women is an open question. There is currently before the Supreme Court a case where a transgender employee was fired; R&G & G.R. Harris Funeral Home vs. E.E.O.C. The DOJ filed an amicus brief stating the law does not protect transgender men and women under the Civil Rights Act of 1964. You can follow the case at www.scotusblog.com.

There are some stats, including mine (Washington State) which afford more protection than others when it comes to sexual identity. This is not settled case law yet.

[Asew]

And there is problems with jobs that are more person to person rather than corporate affairs. My wife does daycare at our house, and she just started watching 2 new kids and wanted me to not wear a skirt around the daycare kids or parents for a few weeks since she is afraid of losing the job over it. And she says once they like us we can let them know. I tell her it is best to be upfront but she marches to a different drummer. But it is very in their right to be able to discriminate and not pick her if it truly bothered them.

[Teresa]

Patience,
It is good to hear you have the support from management and colleagues .

As I was self employed I never had a problem with my boss telling me how to dress , he always said it was OK !!

[Patience]

Thanks, everyone.

Teresa, I'd love to be self employed, but the particular skill I have to market is usually farmed out overseas.

I want to share a couple other stories from work. First, you'll be interested to know I'm not the only gender variant in the company. There's a woman in my shift whose presentation is pretty masculine, even if she doesn't really go out of her way to sound or act in a manly way. Anyway, about three months ago we had a big hiring event in the company (I recounted the event at the time on this post (https://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?261083-I-can-t-believe-I-m-doing-this) ).

Anyway, one of the people hired actually confronted my co-worker, asking her what her gender was. She told him that was irrelevant, but the guy wouldn't let it go. So she told management and the company let him go. As in this instance, I learned about the whole thing after the fact, when my co-worker asked me if that guy had ever hassled me in any way, which he didn't. I expect he must have found me too terrifying to engage in conversation.

Second, while there is an all-gender restroom in the building (which was what prompted me to be more open about my gender expression in the first place), it had no mirror for the longest time. As there's a public suggestion board in the staff area, I requested that a mirror be added (a girl needs to do her makeup somewhere, and the men's room isn't exactly ideal).

Lo and behold, two weeks ago, this appeared in there:

301798

Unfortunately, now there's no water. :doh: Oh, well, can't have everything.

Thanks for reading.

[Eemz]

That's really great Patience. My company is good like that, except the bathrooms I guess. It's actually been so great to have such freedom in that part of my life. I don't do hair or makeup or underdress at work, but other than that I wear whatever I like. I looked at myself in the mirror after coming home one day and realized all I'd have to do is put on makeup & wig and I could go straight back out again. I don't always dress as "femme" as that at work, but it's great to know I can when I want to.

There's 700 people in the building and I'm hoping that me being so open will bring others out of the woodwork, but it hasn't happened yet. Early days I suppose. I'm OK with being the only one if need be, but it would be nice. And everyone has been great, I actually can't believe how easy it's been.

[stephenie3756]

My company has ethics training about diversity. In the training, done online, there is a video segment of someone that is transitioning from male to female and how one of the co-workers give the person a hard time. The video then goes into how this behavior is unacceptable. It is nice to know that the company welcomes transgendered individuals. For me, I would love to wear my 5" heels to work, but working in maintenance would make that difficult.

[Teresa]

Eemz,
I still say the percentages are higher than quoted here judging by the conversation I've had with the general public. Even money there will be those who can't wait to get home to get dressed especially after seeing you , it's the trigger effect .

One question do you find you are looking for tell tale signs with other people , maybe the suggestion of a bra strap ? If so would you be inclined to say something ?

[Leslie Mary S]

I even see the pantie and strap edges and shade of color differences even here in many photos (even my own).

[Bobbi46]

Patience you are very lucky to be working for a very supporting company there should be lots more like yours sadly not so and still many who speak out against us, I do not have this problem being retired and my own boss as to how I spend my day.

[Eemz]

I agree Teresa - on the face of it there's me and one openly gay woman out of 700 people, and those numbers don't work.
They're in there somewhere LOL

I'm not actively looking, but I have decided that if I do think someone might be then I'm going to try and figure out what they want from me and do that. I'm kind of assuming I'll notice before a lot of others and the last thing I want is to put them off by pouncing the first day while they're still having breakfast - hey, you're wearing a bra! and they end up "OMG it's so obvious, I can't do this!"

[Patience]

Minor update:

As I mentioned in my last thread, I'm just getting back into full-femme dressing after being on hiatus for the better part of a month. Today, I finally put on my breast forms again. I had originally planned to do the whole gender bender thing, which for me entails not only the forms, but also painted nails (painted yesterday), lipstick and a pair on clip-on earrings. Unfortunately, I was late getting out of the house, l settled for painted nails and my 42 C breasts underneath my company sweater, which was covering a pink Wonder Woman shirt with the logo in stripes with the colors of the rainbow flag. It was a shame I couldn't wear it openly today.

When I arrived, I was told that my new boss and his boss were both in the building. This was totally unexpected, as I had never met either (I was recently promoted after a successful phone interview) Anyway, between my company logo sweatshirt and my safety vest, I managed to conceal my boobs pretty successfully. I greeted both managets and shook their hands (concealed inside my work gloves) and that was cool.

With any luck, I'll be able to do the full fem presentation before the end of the week, when I'll be training for my new job.

[Melanie Therese]

I work for government and while I wear outer drab the policies are meant to be very LGBTIQ+ inclusive. A colleague who I don’t know the real background but is gender questionable ( I only say questionable as I have no idea, nor care as a great person) always used the disabled toilet rather than the gendered. Management sent a huge rant about the use of the disabled toilet being for those with a disability only. Haven’t seen them since, but I know still on the payroll.

[Sherrii]

Maybe let your supervisor know you know and express your appreciation for the fact the company supported you intend to continue doing your best for the company. Sherrii

[Xenia]

At a place where I worked a few years ago, I would occasionally wear nail polish, but nothing beyond that.

One day, one of my colleagues came to me and told me that the week before, when I had been away, one of the higher-ups had come down to the department and asked him to pass the word along to me that I shouldn't do that anymore. Not that HE had a problem with it personally, of course, but he was afraid that OTHER people might find it unprofessional. (Which is of course code for, yes, he had a problem with it personally, he just didn't want to own it.)

Good for you that you don't work for such a bunch of dummies.

[Nicole Erin]

And everyone has been great, I actually can't believe how easy it's been.
I think it depends on a few factors how easy or hard someone has it. The place I work is pretty diverse and very seldom have I had anyone react weird. They just treat me like anyone else.
Though live this full time but of course people know my gender status. I don't talk about it or act like some drag queen though, which probably helps. I have a friend who works at another company who catches a lot of hell but her work station is LOUDLY decorated with TG flags and stuff.


For me, I would love to wear my 5" heels to work, but working in maintenance would make that difficult.

No thanks. Those kind of heels are good for "play time" but having to walk or stand for any amount of time, give me my ragged ol Saucony sneakers.

[Patience]

So after being promoted last month, I'm in my third week on the job and I haven’t dressed once. Closest I've come to dressing at work was wearing my Wonder Woman shirt on Friday. (And panties from day one, of course)

My work environment is comprised of various autonomous departments sharing a common space, so we don’t really report to each other. Most important of all, I don’t report to them and -best of all- my immediate boss is in a very different zip code from my own.

I know at least a couple of these new people have seen me dolled up, but we were never in such close contact before. For the time being, I’m keeping my nose to the grindstone, learning my new job and building working relationships. When the time comes, I’ll assert my personality gradually, starting with painting my nails. My nails have been naked for almost a month now. Can’t wait for some color!

I do plan to come dressed to work eventually. Pride weekend (also the anniversary of my first outing) and halloween (when I actually came to work dressed last year) are earmarked. Anyway, I think it’ll be fun, but first I gotta get a grip on the job.

[Rogina B]

When you finally do come out to them,I suggest you have a plan of what you will say...If your gender identity is truly driving you then looking them in the eye and letting them know you are transgender is,from my experience the best thing to do. Shows your confidence. Halloweeen may be fine if you identify as a CD but don't expect to be taken seriously.

[Patience]

So I'm settling in on the new job, built a good rapport with my immediate coworkers. Four or so weeks into the job (two weeks ago or so) I figured it was time to paint my nails again, so I did. I wasn’t nervous, well, not much, anyway, as these were all people who had seen me before.

I showed up, turned on my computer as usual and went about my work. Gradually folks started noticing my red (what else?) nails. There were some funny looks, but nothing major. Reaction was mixed, but I think I overheard the argument that won the day in my favor when I heard someone say “...well, I don’t know because I’m a girl, but if he’s felling it...” can’t argue with that.

Since coming out, my work relationship with the other people in the firm hasn’t changed, although I’m not sure I’d want my boss to see me this way. Luckily, he works offsite.

Last week, I started wearing a bra to work. No underwire, just the plain empty bra. Earrings next.

On a side note, a girl coworker who was recently promoted is now sporting a boy's haircut. I know I shouldn’t take credit, but I like to think I helped.

[Rogina B]

So I'm settling in on the new job, built a good rapport with my immediate coworkers. although I’m not sure I’d want my boss to see me this way. Luckily, he works offsite.

Last week, I started wearing a bra to work. No underwire, just the plain empty bra. Earrings next.
So,can you explain to your boss ? He may ask "the endgame is ?"

[Jodie_Lynn]

>>SNIP<<

Last week, I started wearing a bra to work. No underwire, just the plain empty bra. Earrings next.

On a side note, a girl coworker who was recently promoted is now sporting a boy's haircut. I know I shouldn’t take credit, but I like to think I helped.

Firstly, women's hairstyles are vastly more varied than men's cuts. The shorter style might be a try at a new look, or simply more comfortable. I seriously doubt that you had anything to do with her decision. It's not like she said "Ooooh, that guy is crossing gender boundaries, I guess I can get a 'butch' cut now!" Until or unless one of your male co-workers shows up sporting a beehive, I think it is safe to say that you aren't breaking down any gender barriers.

Secondly, if you are choosing to wear various articles of feminine clothing & accessories to work, it is naïve of you to think that your boss is totally unaware. People talk, ya know? He (or she) may have gotten the word from another employee.

Thirdly, and this is just a pet peeve of mine, unless you are working with high-schoolers, your female colleague is a woman, not a girl.

[Crissy 107]

Jodie_Lynn, Stop being so negative, Patience is there and feels she may have influenced the girl on the haircut, NBD. As for the clothes, maybe the off site boss knows or maybe not, once again, who cares.
Ok I somewhat get your pet peeve but once again Patience is there and describes her coworkers whichever way she cares to.

[Tracii G]

I think it depends on a few factors how easy or hard someone has it. The place I work is pretty diverse and very seldom have I had anyone react weird. They just treat me like anyone else.
Though live this full time but of course people know my gender status. I don't talk about it or act like some drag queen though, which probably helps. I have a friend who works at another company who catches a lot of hell but her work station is LOUDLY decorated with TG flags and stuff.



This exactly ^^^^^^^^^^^
People really don't care and can get along fine with you if you act like a normal person.
The loud activist personality makes you look like an attention "ho" forcing your will against them and demanding special treatment.
That is the last thing you should do in a work environment.
The company would be more apt to let you go because you are causing a disruption of work productivity.

[Eemz]

That's so great Patience, thanks for the update. I think this is a really good way to approach it.

> People really don't care and can get along fine with you if you act like a normal person

That was totally my experience. Like Tracii said, ramming things down people's throats doesn't work; it just creates conflict. You want to be sending the message - yep this is different, yep I know it's atypical, it's all good though, all good, nothing to see here, move along, have a nice day. They get over it very fast and it becomes the new normal. Nobody even notices if I turn up with something new now.

> I showed up, turned on my computer as usual and went about my work.

That's what it's all about, well done you.

You do have to give people a few seconds to reboot their brains when they encounter something new for the first time; that's only fair it's a new experience for most of them. I saw lots of confused looks from people who were trying to keep the work conversation going while thinking to themselves, don't stare at the earrings, don't stare at the earrings. Your remote boss probably will hear eventually, but what does he care? About what someone he can't see is wearing? As long as the reports of your work are good, and he's not hearing reports that you drive everyone in the office crazy.

- - - Updated - - -

And I agree with Rogina - someone will eventually ask where this is going. Best to expect it and know what you're going to say. I suggest the truth :) In my case the truth is that I don't know where this is going or how far, but nor am I placing any limits on it. I'm just going to go with it for better or worse until I find what makes me happy. So I said that.

[Patience]

So,can you explain to your boss ? He may ask "the endgame is ?"...and I'll say the end game is everyone dies in the end. I only have one life to live and what good is it if I'm not allowed to be myself? Also, I've only been exploring these feelings two years, come august. How can I know what I'll feel in two years if I can't even be sure I'll be alive in two years?

Anyway, I think I'm slowly reaching my dressing plateau for this job. Painted nails, panties more often than not; never ommando-kay. I still haven't added accessories. I'm adding pieces very gradually. Earrings next. I won't be dolling myself up at work for pride this time, but still expect to be fully dressed for Halloween.


Firstly, women's hairstyles are vastly more varied than men's cuts. The shorter style might be a try at a new look, or simply more comfortable. I seriously doubt that you had anything to do with her decision. It's not like she said "Ooooh, that guy is crossing gender boundaries, I guess I can get a 'butch' cut now!" Until or unless one of your male co-workers shows up sporting a beehive, I think it is safe to say that you aren't breaking down any gender barriers.Crissy is right. You should stop being so negative.

Thank you for numbering your comments. Most folks aren't so considerate. I distinctly said I knew I shouldn't take credit. Is it so wrong for a person to engage in a bit of fantasy here - a website for men that like to think of themselves as women? I ask you rhetorically.

And you must admit that, from your vantage point, you can't claim anything conclusively either.


Secondly, if you are choosing to wear various articles of feminine clothing & accessories to work, it is naïve of you to think that your boss is totally unaware. People talk, ya know? He (or she) may have gotten the word from another employee.

This is a bit out of date. My fault. You're right, my boss could have been told by someone else, but realistically only two people would have gone through the trouble of mentioning it to my boss, and one of them might even have done; but you must agree that there's a big difference between your boss hearing that you do something and him seeing you do something.

Anyhow, I've accessed this site through my computer at work, so I have no doubt I'm more out than I think. It doesn't matter, though. I'm glad to tell you I've got a grip on the job now and it's been acknowledged by the people in charge of having to care about these things. Yay me.


Thirdly, and this is just a pet peeve of mine, unless you are working with high-schoolers, your female colleague is a woman, not a girl.

Firstly, it is not out of line for a man to refer to a woman 20 years his junior a girl. Maybe 40 in your case.

Secondly, you haven't seen (or heard) the person I'm talking about. If you did, you might have felt differently.

Thirdly, since you posted your response, there have been numerous threads (and even more posts) referring to various types of females (including us) as girls, and while I wasn't actively looking, I never saw you raise this objection ever again, which leads me to believe we can safely downgrade your peeve from "pet" to "petty".

Thank you for your interest.

[abbiedrake]

Good for you, Patience!
I have to say if I was still working full-time I'd likely come out. Just for fun as much as anything else. I worked in a large-ish utility company in the office and I doubt I'd have been given a hard time. By the time I left I'd long since ditched the shirt and tie.
Maybe it's petty of me, but then I always considered the company and those around me pretty small-minded so.. Meh.
On a slightly more serious note though I would have thought that more forward thinking business leaders would recognise that allowing self-expression would make for a happier, more productive workforce.

[Leslie Mary S]

I have seen work-place hostilities for many reasons but never for how we dressed or acted. I was first in the military and later working on a military base. In those days gone by you dressed as the gender on yoi ID/badge.
Now I am starting to get flack from one of my neighbors. He doesn't want to see me in female attire nor his family to see me. It makes it hard to go in and out since there are no fences allowed between the mobile homes.
So in effect I am experiencing the same as work place hostility. This is why I stay inside most of the time.

[marika_jaye]

Leslie, it seems like your neighbor needs to stay in his own lane, or tend his own garden, if you prefer. He and his family will encounter all manner of gender non-conformance out in the big world. If he has a problem with the way you are comfortable presenting yourself, it's his problem and he needs to get over it. He has no right or authority to dictate what you wear, or when or where.

All my neighbors have seen me outside my house in skirts, dresses and other feminine effects. None of them have voiced any objections, but if any ever did, I would thank them for their unsolicited opinion and politely tell them to pound sand. :D

[StephanieIndy]

He doesn't want to see me in female attire nor his family to see me. It makes it hard to go in and out since there are no fences allowed between the mobile homes.
So in effect I am experiencing the same as work place hostility. This is why I stay inside most of the time.

I wonder if you would have any legal options with this issue? If you feel threatened enough to not leave your home wouldnt this be a form of harassment? There is nothing illegal with your choice of clothing, so there is nothing for the neighbor to give you grief over.

[Leslie Mary S]

I have friends who will tell me if he is up to things. The park manager knows about my dressing now for over 4 years.

[Patience]

Wow, I forgot to mention how Pride went.

While I had half a notion of going to work en femme for pride at work, I felt the timing wasn’t right, so I’ve saved that pleasure for Halloween, when it’ll definitely be a go.

Still, I felt I should do something to observe Pride at work, so I went as femme as I would allow myself: a pair of unmistakably feminine floral pants, panties,painted nails, clip-on earrings, and lipstick of a shade so close to the color of my actual lips that other than for the glossiness, it’s hard to tell if I have any on.

I went about my day as normal. Some people noticed and glanced quizzically, no one said anything but I noticed some people talking in more hushed tones than normal. One month later, I can say everyone’s forgotten about it already.

The most fun part of being dressed at work was seeing the lipstick stains on my coffee mug.

[suzanne]

An outside contractor should know better than that. Everyone in your company is his customer and comments like that get around fast when your people support you. He couldn't have done worse if he had called you fat, ugly and stupid.

[Michelle_G]

Wouldn't be surprised if the dude was a closet crossdresser himself. Seemed to be quite interested.

[Patience]

I agree, Michelle.

I think that there are at least two admirers for every detractor.

Also, a lot of that is guys getting on a bandwagon. You know, playing the macho part in public, that sort of thing.

Anyway, Halloween is next month. Gotta do something about my boobs. I want an open cleavage. :devil:

[Leslie Mary S]

Well the neighbor I was having trouble is gone. Come to find out, he and his family had moved in with his brother, the owner of the trailer, till they could find their own place.
Going to Atlanta this coming weekend. Will drive the 3 hours dressed, going and returning. No Drab clothing in the car either. This traveling dressed is a common practice for most of our small group of about 20 girls.

[Patience]

How did the trip go?

[char GG]

This thread was started in March. It has go off track since the OP. Closing.