Pondering why men can't wear dresses?

[phili]

Came across this wonderful article by a woman who pondered it too- a very clear and friendly discussion of the reasons why it is 'never done', but why that shouldn't be true. Enjoy the warmth! It gives us more ways to acknowledge what our spouses and negative friends are feeling, and why it is so hard for them to even let it just be- why it is threatening.

https://www.racked.com/2018/4/23/17261508/gender-bending-men-dresses

The article ends with her citing a few men taking public positions on it, and that contrarian 'this is what I believe' stance is how I go about this now.

It feels good to read, but she doesn't talk about the subliminal sexual connotations of clothing, which are also a big part of why people just can't deal with it. There is no current category for the sexuality of people who are hetero but want to wear the clothes that reflect the sexuality of the other sex.

[Ronnie38]

Ive read that somewhere before. Still a great article.

[Rochal Tukque]

I'm still amazed at how the cut and shape of a garment can draw so many lines in the sand and more over how it can change how I view my self. I to am baffled as to why people have such a problem with one expressing them self differently. But I think that the tribalism is still alive and well. Everybody can be different as long as their just like us. I fear it will be a long time before that is out grown!

[Hell on Heels]

Hell-o Philli,
The article starts off on a slightly rough note stating something like most girls wish they were boys, and want to look, act, and dress like one. And, that girls appreciate being told they have a boyish figure thing? Hogwash!
Otherwise, I liked what I was reading.
I think, in most cases, it’s our own rediculous fear of nothing more than ridicule itself that keeps the majority of us hiding.
Much Love,
Kristyn

[Teresa]

Phili,
Are we back to cavemen ? It still comes down to the stereotype of what is expected of boys/ men . I call it a male straightjacket .

It's so hard to avoid the question of sexual connotations when talking about a male wearing a skirt or dress , how often do we openly read on the forum and elsewhere where boys have been caught by their sisters , mothers or whatever mastubating in female clothes . A woman depicted wearing a male shirt has never had to live with that stigma . It is a weakness that's hard to avoid because many admit to it being sexual .

I do feel it's a distinction the public make , a crossdessers is very much in the closet and possibly dresses for his own pleasure , someone who is out presenting as a woman in public is TG , the sexual element has been dropped because they may wish to eventually transition . I won't make the statement but instead ask the question , if a man wears a short skirt and high heels in the street without any makeup or a wig is it because he wants to represent as a woman or is he making a sexual statement ?

I know I'm not making a sexual statement and I hope I haven't offended anyone in public if I've even suggested it by the way I'm dressed . I know for certain my daughter and sister in law wouldn't be seen with me in public if they felt uncomfortable in any way .

To answer the question men can wear dresses as long as they don't look like men for the majority of the public , otherwise you enter unknown territory .

[Beverley Sims]

Men can wear dresses, there is no law that says you have to adhere to a strict dress code.

The only thing I think is awkward....."Go naked in the world. "

We haven't got there yet.

[Robertacd]

I think over all the reason boys who want to be girls are looked at so harshly and girls who want to be boys are not, is due to the fact that women are still basically "second class citizens" in today's society.

For a boy to want to be "something less" is cause for concern, but a girl being a tom-boy is encouraged because she is trying to be "something better".

[char GG]

Robertacd:
You said:

I think over all the reason boys who want to be girls are looked at so harshly and girls who want to be boys are not, is due to the fact that women are still basically "second class citizens" in today's society.

For a boy to want to be "something less" is cause for concern, but a girl being a tom-boy is encouraged because she is trying to be "something better"

I don't know what your age is but I certainly hope that you are not serious with this antiquated statement! And who are the "people" who you believe are judging women as "second class citizens" in today's society? Most of my women friends have had great, well paying jobs, many make more money and have better benefits than their SO's. My daughter is a well paid mechanical engineer.

So, when you dress as a woman, are you trying or want to be a "second class citizen"? Or are you trying to be "something better"?

Men can and do wear dresses, just look at all of the members on this website.

[Robertacd]

If you really think women have achieved equality, I have a bridge to sell you.

Your daughter may be well paid, but I also work in the Engineering field. Women engineers are systematically paid less than male engineers of the same qualifications and experience. Male engineers are given project lead positions over women engineers who are more organized and probably better qualified to lead

Consider all the laws governing what a woman can or can't do with her own body.

Victim shaming in rape cases, it's never the rapist's fault

Dress codes that are in place so the girls don't distract the boys.

While some advancements have been made in the past few decades. I could go on and on about the way women are treated as second class in today's society

[MarinaTwelve200]

of course a Man can wear a Dress. Don't all of us here do it? He just cannot do it and not attract "undue attention" in public. But that is 'human Nature". "The unusual" naturally attracts attention. So we should ask Why can't men wear dresses without attracting undue attention?------I think I just answered that. Of course a man can wear a dress, he just can't wear it without attracting attention. Here is an excellent example of how the use of PARTIAL PHRASES affect our THINKING. Use them casually and often enough, and our MIND begins to take them Literally----So there is the question "Why cant a man wear a dress?" which is a partial phrase taken literally. When we should say "why cant a man wear a dress without attracting attention?" ---THEN we can think about it clearly.

[BLUE ORCHID]

If it isn't against the law then it's ok to wear a dress. >Orchid ..O:hugs:O..

[Jodie_Lynn]

It's based on societal norms.
It some countries, it is acceptable for a man to wear a kilt.
In certain situations, it is accepted for men to wear kilts, in countries where it is not the "norm".
But, a kilt is nothing more that a skirt, dressed up in ceremonial/cultural baggage.

Why is it acceptable for a man to wear a kilt/skirt, but not just a skirt?

[docrobbysherry]

The reason men don't try on woman's things isn't because they r afraid, it's because they NEVER THINK ABOUT IT!:straightface:
I know. I was a regular guy for 50 years!:thumbsup:

The article writer said she wondered why guys were afraid to throw on her clothes when they had none handy? Nonsense!
It wasn't fear, it was bravado. After I had just slept with a woman I was quite comfortable walking around in my skivvies!:D

[Jean 103]

Not buying it. They are wrong.

First women do not want to be men. The exception is FTM, and these individuals don’t have it easy. Don’t believe me then talk to them, I have.

It doesn’t matter if you like it or not, there is a sexual component to wearing clothes. You can’t just overlook the fact. You could be wearing a potato sack and some guy out there is going to think it’s sexy.

The public is not informed at all about this stuff. To try and make assumptions is just a waste of time.

To find how people feel you need to sit down and talk to them. Not to just ask a bunch of questions. That will only get you part of the picture, you need to understand the person, know why they think the way they do. This takes time and is very personal. I have done this many times on my quest to find information.

Men wearing dresses will never be accepted as normal. What I’m saying is that you may live your life in a dress and be just fine, just I don’t think your guy friends are going to join you.

I let people think I’m gay and transitioning, I have found that it is easier for them to understand. I’m BI but just date men and I’ve had a boyfriend for years now. I have managed to change a couple of minds, then I’ve also gotten the reaction that goes something like this,” I’m ok with you but I don’t know about anyone else? “

You want the world to be different, then go out and change it, could be as easy as just being yourself, it works for me.

[Jodie_Lynn]

>>SNIP<<
Men wearing dresses will never be accepted as normal. What I’m saying is that you may live your life in a dress and be just fine, just I don’t think your guy friends are going to join you.

>>SNIP<<

You want the world to be different, then go out and change it, could be as easy as just being yourself, it works for me.


Costumes and customs change with the times. Once upon a time, skirts were manly ( see roman Legionnaires and Celtic Warriors and Egyptian Pharoahs), in the 18th century, high heels were worn by men. Wigs for men and women were extremely fashionable for both men and women in the 17th, 18th centuries. In the 1980's, tight pants & men's bikini underwear were in vogue. (I loved my Sasson girl jeans!)

Who knows how fashion trends will turn in the next decade, or ten?

And I agree 100% with your last statement! :)

[phili]

Of course men CAN wear dresses, as I do, but the OP suggestion was just to enjoy a woman's musings on the reason most don't. I thought her thoughts were warmly presented and she would be an ally to any of us.

There are lots of angles and lenses through which we are seen- and hers was a nice list of some encouraging, some objective like how clothing affects our posture or the way our body parts are presented, and some reflecting her own personal history, just like our own views do.

She touched the tips of many icebergs - each of which plays a part in forming social opinions about crossdressing. I felt it gave me a little more compassion for all those who are put off by my dressing- even if they are polite.

[Jean 103]

Jody Lynn

You can always wish.

But men are men and women are women, most like it that way.

You can make a difference, you can change the world. I have in my own little world.

Still I am in this minority, so at the bar I'm the only TG person there.

Oh here's something, so the guys at the end of the bar aren't about to put on a dress, but they tell me I'm brave to wear one. Others have said same, I don't see it that way, I'm just being me.

[Jean. Ann]

It's really hard to say what the future holds . Fifty years
ago men didn't wear shorts or croped pants to work or office,
no long hair or earrings
The next generation
may see skirts as normal men's wear .

JAS

[abbiedrake]

If read and enjoyed this article previously. I even took some strength and some compliments from it.
It supports my belief in gender as performance. Hell, biological sex is fraught enough (Stop talking about testosterone – there’s no such thing as a ‘true sex’

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/06/testosterone-biological-sex-sports-bodies?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)
But gender as performed rules *should* be more easily understood and transcended. Instead we find that our self - policing and social disaprobation are, in many ways, stronger than biological determinism. By the criteria laid out in the article above we're all clearly non - binary but to try to present as 'other' as we face consequences.
I share your contrarian stance, Phili. The received wisdom that 'so and so many can't possibly be wrong' is a illogical nonsense. The world would be a brighter, happier place if we could only transcend these anachronistic boundaries.
For now, I guess we'll have to settle for a little defiant transgression.
Fine by me. Transgression is my middle name. 😀

[Teresa]

Char,
I was going to leave Roberta's comments alone but I have to say I agree with you . My son is civil engineer and his team includes females all treated as equal in every respect including salary . His boss at one time was a female Dr. of engineering , I don't think they have to wear male clothes to compete on equal terms .

Marina,
I have to be totally honest but I do not attract excessive attention and I'm out everyday . I have to admit I did have a male shopper in the supermarket a couple of days ago appear to be following me and trying to catch a smile , the only difference from normal was I was wearing a skirt and my black leather boots instead of female jeans or trousers . As I was the only one wearing a skirt I feel it was more of a case of being attracted to someone looking more female not because I looked like a MIAD .

One point about some of the replies is they are made from people not totally out in the RW , so the comments are made more from expected reactions rather than true experiences . OK I've only been out in the RW full time for just over a year so I can recall what my fears and expectations were , I still recall Pat's words , " Don't overthink it !" how right she was . I learned quickly that if you don't look for a reaction you won't get one , stop looking over your shoulder . Yes it is quite possible for a man to wear a dress but he also needs common sense if he wants to pull it off .

[ReineD]

But men can and do wear skirts in some cultures without it being looked down upon. Kilts in Scotland. Sarongs in Malaysia.

During the 1980s, the French designer Jean-Paul Gaultier introduced the male skirt (https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&hs=6z9&biw=1169&bih=780&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=NYiWXIPtCobGjwSfo4ngBQ&q=jean+paul+gaultier+male+skirt&oq=jean+paul+gaultier+male+skirt&gs_l=img.3..0.3149.4955..5267...0.0..0.126.715.10j 1......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i67j0i10j0i30j0i8i30j0i24.rtPuzu3aUDE). I wonder if it didn't catch on in western culture because there are more cold than warm months in Northern Europe and northern North America? It's not a style that can be worn year round comfortably. Gaultier's models do not look the least bit feminine in my eyes.

Like it or not, pants are decidedly more practical and easier to move around in than dresses and skirts. This is why a majority of women have adopted them. It makes sense that pants and slacks have become the more universal, gender-neutral style of dress than dresses and skirts.

EDIT -

I've just skimmed over the article. I strongly disagree with this statement:


“Isn’t it queer that for a boy to want to be a girl, and look like a girl, and dress like a girl is so unusual that it fills his parents with fear that he is abnormal, whereas virtually every girl in the world wishes she were a boy and the majority of them try to look like boys, and act like boys, and dress like boys?"

If I ask 100% of my female acquaintances, young and old, whether they'd rather be male than female, I guarantee you that the vast majority would say a resounding NO!

But I do agree with another point in the article that states that many (remember - not all) men are homophobic and so they despise effeminate men. I don't know why this is but I have witnessed it among my own boys when they were teenagers. NO ONE wanted to be perceived as being sissy, as if it diminished them somehow. I took it as a form of ritual establishment of the male pecking order, that does diminish as most males mature and become confident in who they are. None of my boys are homophobic now, in fact they have gay friends. But when they were young they would have "died" before sharing an umbrella with another guy. lol. In any case men who carry this attitude into adulthood are proving the existence of misogyny. Thankfully, misogyny is not as widely spread as it was say during the 1950s, when most wives were still totally dependent on their husbands for their financial needs. Men held total power and control then, which is decidedly not the case today, even though we still have our fair share of misogynist men.

The gender gap has narrowed considerably in the last generation or so and in my view it will continue to narrow, if we can keep gender out of partisan politics.

Last point: it makes sense that men who don't normally expose their legs, shoulders and chest (except at the beach) would feel more vulnerable if they wore skirts and décolletage at home. And I'm sure that many members here find pleasure at feeling this vulnerability. But, this is just a question of getting used to a particular style of clothing. I doubt that Scots and Malays feel vulnerable when they wear their respective kilts and sarongs. As a woman, I certainly don't feel any more "vulnerable" when I wear a skirt or dress at a wedding or at work than when I'm dressed in an old shirt and jeans painting the ceiling in my back room.

[docrobbysherry]

Interesting point, Reine. Vulnerability. That may help explain the fetish, "sissy dressers", I see on line and that occasionally PM me there.:straightface:

[ReineD]

I've just noticed Robertacd's posts.


I think over all the reason boys who want to be girls are looked at so harshly and girls who want to be boys are not, is due to the fact that women are still basically "second class citizens" in today's society.

A big, resounding NO! :)

Take a survey of every woman you know and let me know how many feel they are second class citizens. Ask the men you know if they think that women are second class citizens. The ones who believe this are misogynist. They are also likely near or past retirement. lol. Young men don't feel that way, unless they have politicized gender.


Male engineers are given project lead positions over women engineers who are more organized and probably better qualified to lead

You're conflating the time it takes for laws to catch up to the huge advancement women have made in recent years, with an unproven belief that most people think that women are second class citizens. No worries, salaries will eventually all catch up. They have in many fields, even if the field of engineering is still dominated by men. The gender wage gap has narrowed and it will continue to do so.

Ask any conservative male whether he believes his wife should be paid less than a man doing her exact same job and he will say no, even though he votes for congressmen who refuse to pass equal salary laws.




Consider all the laws governing what a woman can or can't do with her own body.

Laws are slow to change for political reasons and not because most of us believe that women are second class. People pick a side and take a stance to show their allegiance to their political party's platform. Also, don't confuse religious anti-abortion beliefs with gender inequality. The people who believe that fetuses should not be killed would believe the same even if men were the ones to give birth instead of women.




Victim shaming in rape cases, it's never the rapist's fault

Old news. This has improved considerably and will continue to do so. Also, don't confuse what happened during the last Supreme Court appointment hearing with victim shaming. The object there was to stack the court using any means available. You are aware that many men have been fired or have resigned due to charges of inappropriate sexual behavior?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/23/us/metoo-replacements.html



Dress codes that are in place so the girls don't distract the boys.

This has also changed and will continue to change. Schools that have dress codes for girls also have them for boys. And many schools have the same outfits for girls and boys now.

Did you know that the Boy Scouts of America now allows girls to join?

[Macey]

Reine, that patriarchy is still alive, but not well! Slowly dying it is (thankfully). Now we're in a race to see if the womenfolk take over or the robots. I'm team women! Seize control before the robots do!

Please don't anyone take this comment too seriously, just early morning fun before my coffee kicks in ;)

[Teresa]

Reine,
The only time I feel vulnerable it's not from people but more from the weather . When I find I've run out of something and need to nip to the supermarket and can't be bothered to change from a skirt to trousers , the cold wind certainly makes me regret it .

The question of girls wanting to be boys has come up more than once in more tongue in cheek conversations but most girls are very happy being girls , the underlying reasons may be more serious but I'm in total agreement with them I do enjoy my life far more .

[susan54]

As a Scot and a crossdresser I feel moved to make some observations on kilts. I have two. In theory I can wear it whenever I want but have not done so for several years. Apart from weddings and some special functions, and sports events, it is worn only by those in the tourist industry. And pipers. There is nothing to stop anyone wearing it more widely, but they don't. It is not at all like wearing a normal skirt. It is very heavy and warm. It also makes you feel MORE masculine - the swagger comes naturally for some reason. The other problem is that if you depart from the 'rules' about wearing it you will get criticised by the old guard. The rules are bogus - the current form of the kilt is a modern affectation, and modern clan tartans were invented by two fantasist brothers who may or may not have been related to Bonnie Prince Charlie. If you wear a kilt unconventionally, you are likely tpo get more criticism than you would if you just wore a skirt, because the old guard feel entitled to tell you you are wrong - if you wear a skirt people already accept you are breaking the rules and are usually to polite to criticise except to compliment you.

Some of the leg is visible when you wear a kilt with the usual socks. If, like me, you now have hairless legs, this can give rise to questions. If I am wearing a skirt with bare legs in warm weather, I want the skirt to be light. If it is cold, I wear tights, so the conventional kilt fails on both counts. I think the type of skirts worn by men in warm countries are closer to the reasons I wear a skirt. Just for the record, manspreading is unacceptable in a kilt for obvious reasons, b ut there are still people who do it. This is especially objectionable if it is done by one of those die-hards who will not wear anything under their kilt - which is just gross.

My main kilt is the full 8-yard heavy wool job. My second is a lightweight cheapo bought in Lidl for about £20 (a real kilt is about 20 times that). I have thought about wearing it to sit in the garden in summer, but even in Scotland this would look odd - not as odd as wearing a skirt or a dress - but certainly odd.

[abbiedrake]

Refine, thanks for your considered and thoughtful posts. Fantastic as always.
I couldn't help but reflect that what you say basically boils down to 'we've largely cured the disease but the symptoms will linger for a time'.
I agree that today's women are emphatically not second class citizens. But the time when they were is part of the root of the prejudice that we, as CDs, run up against all the time. Look at the prevalence of crossdressing in comedy. Why is it funny? It's the irony. That a man would 'abdicate his male power'. It's anachronistic and stupid, but while we're addressing the core issues of inequality these petty things linger.
That we here dwell on these, in the scheme of things, petty technicalities is because of the cloistered and specific interests of this quite narrow community. We have only one thing that unites us, a penchant for ladies attire.
Let's just say we throw our darts a little widely in our efforts to hit the treble 20 (or the bullseye for those unfamiliar with darts 😉).
This is far from a rebuke, rather a mild defence and maybe a reminder to us all that western society is heading in the right direction.

[ambigendrous]

My thoughts on income inequality: I worked as an engineer in the semiconductor industry for about 35 years before retiring, and was involved in interviewing people looking to fill positions several times. When we hired a person we did not set the salary based on gender - it was set based only on qualifications. I think too many people look at ANY industry, and think that a woman with 5 years' experience should be making the same as a man with 30 years' experience, and that is where the "inequality" is perceived. In my industry even a man with 5 years' experience would not be making the same salary as one with 30 years' experience.

[ReineD]

This is far from a rebuke, rather a mild defence and maybe a reminder to us all that western society is heading in the right direction.

Thank you. I also believe we are headed in the right direction at least in terms of full gender parity. Women in the developed world have come too far to allow our gains to stagnate until fully realized. :)

But can we expect equal gains over the acceptance of crossdressing males? You mention a man's abdication of male power. Do you think that men can accept crossdressing males as easily as they have and will continue to accept the narrowing gender gap? I've no idea. As mentioned in a prior post, my sons accept their gay friends. I've no idea what they'd think if any of their friends crossdressed.

[Lindsay blonde locks]

I think I've only seen one male wearing a dress in my life. Could be more that I didn't realize because they passed though. Eventually this number will average 10, through 18 years of life.

It is a bit depressing hearing the media's critique/laughing at the few famous celebrities who've worn skirts. That's not even the most gendered piece of clothing; dresses as mentioned in the title are on another level of taboo.

I want to wear dresses at some point in my life (I'm only 18). By the time that have the stable income to acquire the best and most feminine clothes, society could see less effeminate clothes as not a big deal for us to wear.

I would hope for us to progress towards full female clothes acceptance for men, but the fact that I might be able to wear women's jeans and skirts without a second glance so soon, that my first job out of college could be like that, is enthralling. Articles like this one are pushing us towards that middle ground of acceptance.

Dresses wouldn't be my every day attire even, formal events are where I'd most want to wear one. (Bleggh, suits)

[Teresa]

Reine,
Men accepting is a very interesting question ,

I often find men will accept better without their wife/partner being present , often meeting a couple the wife will make eye contact but the husband won't . I've only known one exception to that . The difference is more obvious if out socially, in private the man may appear to accept but it's a whole different ball game in public whereas a woman will go along with it providing she feels comfortable with your appearance . I'm obvioulsy speaking from my personal experience .

I'm not sure if the question is about gender but more to do with sexuality .

[ReineD]

I want to wear dresses at some point in my life (I'm only 18). By the time that have the stable income to acquire the best and most feminine clothes, society could see less effeminate clothes as not a big deal for us to wear.

My guess is that it will go the other way. Clothing will continue to morph towards the gender-neutral, which means pants and tops in practical colors that go with everything, not skirts and dresses. A vast majority of women already wear pants and flat shoes in their day-to-day lives because they are much easier than having to deal with hose, skirts or dresses, and heels. Go to any campus, mall or workplace and observe for yourself.

Nightclubs and places where girls go to meet boys are different. Girls do know how to show off their assets if they want to attract a boy. :)