meaning of gender honesty

[closets]

Skirt Cafe.org is an on-line community dedicated to exploring, promoting and advocating skirts and kilts as a fashion choice for men. We do this in the context of men's fashion freedom --- an expansion of choices beyond those commonly available for men to include kilts, skirts and other garments. We recognize a diversity of styles our members feel comfortable wearing, and do not exclude any potential choices.

Continuing dialog on gender is encouraged in the context of fashion freedom for men. In particular, we recognize that gender is a complex subject and some of us may feel more "masculine" or "feminine" at times. However, this is NOT a transvestite or crossdresser forum. We are committed to a fundamentally masculine gender identity --- masculine name and pronouns. We call it "gender honesty." Beyond that, what it means to be a man is individual and open to discussion.

i saw this and thought it great that guys are breaking fashion norms by wearing skirts. But their idea of gender honesty is a bit puzzling, and it seems like they are saying cd's are not honest when we emulate the female form? so if a cd is dressing to appear as close as they can to a gg, the cd is betraying their masculine gender identity?

[Tracii G]

When you start worrying about things like this you are wasting your time.
Skirts will never be accepted as a guys clothing item.
Sure you may see them in magazines or online fashion shows but when do you actually see guys wearing any of that stuff?
Again don't worry about what others do or if they are betraying the male gender Just do what you do because you want to.

[Beverley Sims]

Gender honesty?

That's a new line.

I see nothing feminine in a Scotsman wearing a kilt.

I have a womans kilt, nice and warm in the winter but I still can not do the sword dance in it.

[Rochal Tukque]

Honestly I do have a gender in there somewhere. I do wish it was as easy as a matter of fashion.

[susan54]

I actually have an issue with gender honesty. I feel that when I go out wearing a bust, make-up and a wig, and trying to move like a woman (which I am quite good at) I am attempting to deceive people. This is of no consequence in the street where my gender is irrelevant, but if I am asking someone to interact meaningfully with me I prefer them to know I am male. A friend who runs a lingerie shop keeps asking me to go to her fashion shows. Apparently men form part of the audience anyway, but dressing as a woman to look at real women parading in their underwear is into creepy territory. The only situation where having a female appearance is something I am comfortable with where deception is involved is an fitting rooms. I mean ones with separate cubicles - I have never encountered a communal one and would not use it if I did. As most people are not paying attention, a female appearance avoids anyone feeling uncomfortable, but I more frequently use such changing rooms when dressed as a man, and no one has ever complained. I somehow switch off my normal male reactions to women in such situations as I don't even want to think anything that might make women uncomfortable. I prefer to be perceived as a man who looks good when acting the part of a woman than as an actual woman, which avoids any deception - or that is what I am going to tell myself. This is not a criticism of others - it is just what works for me. As I have said before on this Forum I regard myself as a gender tourist - I am acting - I never identify as a woman no matter what I am wearing. I am actually more comfortable with people knowing I am a man than I would be with everyone thinking I am a woman.
When you think about it there is probably a greater achievement in a man looking really elegant in a dress than a woman.

[Micki_Finn]

Yeah that phrase is extremely troubling not only for the reason you mentioned, but if they feel that way about the masculine gender, then they must necessarily have dated and sexist ideas about “women’s roles”.

[Princess Chantal]

Great post Susan,
I too prefer people that I interact with to know that I am male and don’t identify as a woman. My best friend has a sayings of “trust me she’s no lady” and some variations of it that I love to hear. Sometimes he gets scorned for saying it, in which I come to his defence with telling them of my pleasure and encouragement of his light hearted comments

[GretchenM]

Our gender identities as well as our sex, at least the basic framework, is determined at the moment of conception. It is all genetic at the start. Shortly after that time and for the rest of our lives environment enters the picture and, so to speak, puts padding and clothes on that framework. In that sense, when looking at the whole package, gender and the identities that go with gender are a result of adaptation as a result of experiences within a basic framework that places some boundaries and definition to what is and is not possible.

If you look at it from the side of environmental influence you see that gender and gender identity as well as expression is whatever you make it to be. But move to the other side and you see huge genetic influences that seems to regulate everything you do. Stand back a ways and you begin to see it is a genetically based complex system that is constantly being molded by experiences and choices made by the creature it is contained in - you. It is undoubtedly one of the most important part of the connection between environment and basic structure that we have. That is why creating and managing it takes up more genetic space than perhaps any other major system that forms us.

So what one person considers gender honesty may not fit another person's concept of what is honest. Are you honest to your genetic foundation or is it honesty to the vast amount of environmental modification? For me, I try to work with the whole thing. Am I successful? Well ... sometimes. Conclusion? I think it is follow your own rainbow and if your rainbow crosses through another's rainbow try not to think of it as interference but an encounter with someone else that is an opportunity to learn something new.

[Gillian Gigs]

If the point is really all about the expansion of choices, and the freedom to wear the clothes that someone wishes, then good. This may not sell as well with someone who desires to totally express their feminine side, but supporting the dressing freedom, still needs to happen. As lines blur between gender fashions, the concepts of what CD'ing is may change also. The lines have blurred a lot already, so what difference does a little more make. Just look at this site, you will see the diversity of CD'ing and what each individual considers CD'ing to be.

[Stephanie47]

The site may not be a transvestite or crossdresser forum. OK! Wearing a skirt or kilt may be an attempt at a fashion statement. My wife and I watch on PBS a lot of the musical offerings where bag pipers are wearing kilts. Our local news always shows the local police bag pipers attending the funeral of a slain police officer. As said, there is zero attempt to equate kilts to any thing feminine. At my local big box hardware store there is a gentleman who routinely wears a kilt. Nobody ever seems to question him or give him a smirk. I think society has accepted the cultural aspects of a kilt as well as the attire of other cultures.

I don't know what gender honesty really means. Why limit oneself to wearing a kilt or skirt? Why cannot a man wear a flowery sun dress to the neighborhood BBQ or to the local big box hardware store. Perhaps the guy just likes wearing sun dresses because the dresses are more comfortable than shorts and pants in hot humid weather. My wife will rapidly change into a loosely fitting dress when the weather calls for it. My mother was the same.

Gender honesty? For me it is NOT just the clothes. I am being honest to myself when attired in women's clothing. That's me this morning. Fully en femme and feeling quite normal. If I were to reveal to everyone I know most people will not think I am normal. I readily admit I do not meet societal norms and expectations for a man.

My identity is complex. When I emulate the female form I am being honest. Honest for that time period when there is this overwhelming drive to express this side of me.

If skirtcafe.com wants to break the mold as to acceptable male attire go do it. Wear a skirt, but, leave the heels and pantyhose at home.

[docrobbysherry]

"Gender honesty" from a site promoting skirts on man's men? :devil::devil::devil:

[GracieRose]

"Gender honesty"
Interesting phrase, but the definition given seems a bit presumptuous to me.
I prefer to wear clothes, hairstyles, makeup, etc. that are generally reserved for GGs. I am more comfortable with the person I see in the mirror when attired that way. I recognize that person as being aligned with how I feel. When I see a person attired in male clothes in the mirror, he seems like a stranger to me. Am I more honest about presenting my gender when dressed as a woman, or as a man? I might argue that when I put on men's clothes and present as a binary society expects, I am actually more dishonest than when I am outwardly presenting the way I feel inside.

[Aunt Kelly]

The site, and their stated mission, has little to do with gender. They are trying to advocate change for fashion norms - fashion, not gender. More power to them, but we know who's honest and who isn't. Am I right, ladies?

[Sallee]

Interesting discussion in this threat. We could change the title to just honesty and leave it at that. For me when I present as a woman I would like to be accepted as a woman. Whether I am or not doesn't really matter. If I get questioned I will admit that I am indeed a cross dresser and enjoy dressing and being accepted as a woman. BUt I try to pass when crossdressed. When not cross dressed I am all male

[Tracii G]

When I go out 100% female mode I am not deceiving anyone where people get that idea is beyond me.
Its up to the person looking at me to make up their own mind exactly what I am.
Intent to deceive is something else entirely.
The key word here is intent and you would have to be able to prove what my or any CDs intent when dressing.
You can't so claiming one is deceiving others because you are CDing does not hold water.

[Jean. Ann]

I feel I am. not deceiving anyone .
I am being honest by showing the world
what I feel on the inside.
What could be more honest

JAS

[suzanne]

I think a lot of this comes from the old idea of the gender binary. Men must be masculine, and all that rot. I once worked with a man who referred to anyone outside the binary as "gender confused". He never knew the truth about me. Had he known, he would have thrown me under the nearest bus. Anti LGBTQ people work hard to keep themselves and others fitting nearly into one box or the other, then discard outliers as sinners or freaks. And there are pockets in rural North America where non binaries feel completely isolated, so they must construct a narrative for themselves that fits the community in which they find themselves.

On a related subject, I've read about guys living in small town Midwest who have sex with other guys like themselves. They do not admit to being homosexual. Instead, they refer to their sexual activities as "Helping out a friend". I think this is what's happening in that website. In the minds of the members, the term crossdresser or drag queen conjures up images that they can't identify with, and so are developing their own metaphor. I'd say participate or don't, but live and let live.

[Teresa]

Closets,
We all have the right to wear what we wish without any consideration to gender, clothes can be used in so many ways to express oursleves . People on the TG spectrum have a certain level of gender dysphoria, to deal with that we have an honest need to dress according to those feelings not a dishonest one . In fact you could turn this round now and say I'm being dishonest by dressing in male mode , I'm trying to emulate a normal man which I'm not !

A normal male in the RW has no real need to wear female clothes , the majority do not have the need to display or expose a female side because they don't have one . The need to wear a dress or skirt is more than likely driven by other reasons other than just making a fashion statement , those reasons are often something they prefer not to reveal so we enter the sexual aspect or step into the CDers World .

Skirt Cafe, is really pandering to Cders despite their disclaimer .

[suzanne]

My version of honesty is to be just as I am, no more and no less. A man in a dress. I make zero effort to pass as a woman, but 100% effort to make my appearance as tasteful, age appropriate and presentable as possible. And I try to act as if it's Not A Big Deal for me to present this way. So, I'm don't announce my presence with a big, Oprah Winfrey "Hellllooooo" or asking everyone if they like my dress. Others in this forum may disagree or even disapprove of my method, but it works for me. And I can tell it works from the number of random people who have walked up to give me unsolicited compliments. Oddly, when I am forced to change back into drab clothes to be out in public with my wife, that's when I feel I'm being dishonest.

[April Rose]

For what it's worth, I put no value whatsoever on a masculine gender identity. It's just a social construct.

[Jenny22]

I'm guessing that Skirtcafe.org just found a comfortable sales niche for possible customers, that no one else was pitching.

[Stacy Darling]

Gee, you girls write a lot for little me to go through.

I may see this a bit differently at present, as I've knowingly had a lifestyle change!

I'm never great at explaining but since I've had to buy a new wardrobe and my wife can't control that, I can understand the gender honesty thing a bit!

The people in my new community are quite happy with the "thing"

[Patience]

Let’s start a forum for men who like to have sex with other men, with the caveat that it’s not a homosexual forum and that we advocate practicing “sexual honesty”. ;)

It’s just another pooly conceived half-baked idea on the internet.

[Aunt Kelly]

Let's clear up one thing, ya wee lot o' lowlanders...

Ef yer no wearin' panties, t'is no a skert.

[abbiedrake]

I'm all for liberating fashion choices but to attempt to do so with no attempt to address the semiotics involved seems rather fruitless.
Seems we hear this a lot from both sides of the aisle. 'what about kilts?' What about them? My wife had suggested them, but if I rocked up in a floral one she'd flip. Likewise shirts. She's bought me plenty of James May-alike floral shirts but I show up in one with the buttons on the other side we're not leaving the house.
I myself have argued they're just clothes but they're not. The signs and symbols are too potent. A point Phili returns to frequently. Rightly so.
To me Skirt cafe seems a tad petty, narrow, and self-defeating.
Not to mention sounding like they're protesting just a little too much.

[Asew]

If they feel gender honest about being manly men in skirt and kilts, then that sounds great for them and I support them. And if they feel like it is part of their gender identity, well then they can come over here on this site :)

[docrobbysherry]

Let's clear up one thing, ya wee lot o' lowlanders...

Ef yer no wearin' panties, t'is no a skert.

Does that mean everyone in Scootland must lift up their kilt or it doesn't count, Auntie?:brolleyes:

[abbiedrake]

That'd be knickers not panties Kelly.
And 'Naev, rather than' no' if you're aiming for phonetics. 😜

[Jean 103]

I think it was like twenty years ago l watched a special on a group of guys wearing skirts in Seattle. They why they preferred wearing skirts. They showed them doing guy stuff like working on a car. I remember the guy saying how he liked the freedom of movement, he said this while he was laying on the garage floor under a car.

I didn't buy it than and still don't.

As I write this I think I'm the honest one. I got off early, so I'm laying in the backyard working on my tan in a bikini. I'm just being me, it's that simple.

[Aunt Kelly]

Does that mean everyone in Scootland must lift up their kilt or it doesn't count, Auntie?:brolleyes:

Ah'll let yeh find eyt fer yer self, lass, but yeh can no use yer eyes.

[Stephanie47]

I have a difficult time watching BBC! No I need a word translator too? :)

[SabrinaEmily]

i saw this and thought it great that guys are breaking fashion norms by wearing skirts. But their idea of gender honesty is a bit puzzling, and it seems like they are saying cd's are not honest when we emulate the female form? so if a cd is dressing to appear as close as they can to a gg, the cd is betraying their masculine gender identity?

Why don't you go there and ask them what they mean, instead of just gossiping about it here?

[Pumped]

I get a kick out of the "We want to wear clothing intended for women, but we are not cross dressers, we do it as a fashion choice" mentality. Maybe I am a bit rigid, but I don't care what your reasoning is, if you wear clothing intended for the opposite gender you are a cross dresser, plain and simple. It is like the term has a terrible negative connotation and they just can not accept it.

I belong to another site involving men wearing high heels. They try to maintain a similar mindset there. One member wears dresses, skirts and high heels and post pictures often, but he is not a cross dresser. You can post all the pics you want wearing women's clothing, including thigh high stockings, but post a pic with breast forms or any attempt to appear as a woman, (forms, wigs, make up, bras) and it gets removed.

Again, perhaps I am missing something, but it is kind of weird to me where some people draw the line.

[t-girlxsophie]

Let's clear up one thing, ya wee lot o' lowlanders...

Ef yer no wearin' panties, t'is no a skert.

To muddle things Technically you shouldn't be wearing anything underneath :eek: :)