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Fainne the King
03-23-2006, 12:54 PM
I mean, dressing wise. I'm sure the MTF will disagree, and I'm sure this discussion has gone on before. But they have wigs that can come on and off, makeup that can come on and off, jewelry and other accessories that enhance their femininity, while we're pretty much bare. I mean, if we have a feminine face, too bad, because there's not much we can do to hide it. There's not a lot of "male markers" because so much is unisex now. And for those of us who don't live full time, we pretty much have to cut our hair short and end up looking like a butch lesbian when we aren't dressed. While you MTFs can take off your wigs and makeup and look like normal guys when you want to.

I do think the MTFs have it harder socially, however, because of the stigma to CDing. But that's another issue.

Aileen
03-23-2006, 01:10 PM
Maybe so. But what about false beards?

Maria D
03-23-2006, 01:11 PM
From an MTFs POV it's ironic I suppose.

I totally agree with you. For many reasons women can now wear pretty much anything, which I always assumed made FTM dressing that much harder. Though you can eliminate the feminine traits and gain the masculine, you have to rely on the traits and body alone since clothes just don't do it.
That's why I don't agree with Eddie Izzard about equal clothing rights. The gender cues help a crossdresser, and I think 'acceptance of crossdressing' is more desirable than 'equal clothing rights' to facilitate the goal of crossdressing in public openly.

Take care :)

Fainne the King
03-23-2006, 01:13 PM
Maybe so. But what about false beards?I haven't found any that are convincing enough (and cheap enough) for me to want to try out.

Julie Avery
03-23-2006, 04:29 PM
Do we [MTF] have it harder? I mean, dressing wise. I'm sure the MTF will disagree....I do think the MTFs have it harder socially, however, because of the stigma to CDing. But that's another issue.

I don't disagree at all.

The "beard" thing also occurs to me to as possibly helpful, in this way: mtf's know that even with the closest shave, a genetic male has a "beard shadow" that needs to be concealed. I am not talking about a "five o'clock shadow", I'm talking immediately after a close shave. I don't think that most non-crossdressing men know this, and I doubt that they'd notice the lack of it on an FTM, so in that sense it's probably no big deal, I wouldn't think the lack of a beard shadow would keep an FTM from passing, at least, not one under age 30.

Anyhow, the shadow is subtle, but it's a dead giveaway on an MTF if not concealed. I've got a probably silly idea that if an FTM studied the contours of the beard shadow on MTF photos, they just might be able to do something with a very subtle use of a very tiny bit of mascara, smeared around (smearing prolly easier right after moisturizing). Main problem might be what happens if condensation from a cold soft drink or rain or perspiration happens, would your beard shadow run, lol?

This is prolly a silly idea, but I just couldn't resist tossing it out here.

EricaCD
03-23-2006, 05:44 PM
Interesting topic. You are absolutely right about the tradeoff between ease of effecting at least a pretty good physical impression vs. social stigma attached. I wonder if this might not be a reason there are so many MTF crossdressers as opposed to true transgendered MTFs. Relatively easy to do; big deviancy points if the forbidden aspect enhances the sexual pleasure.

And I must say that no matter how much I complain about tucking, I shut up whenever I contemplate what an FTM must to do his chest...

To close with some good news, the FTMs should be aware that they do have one big advantage: most men can barely notice their own shoes, much less subtle appearance points on another person. IMHO the giveaway for a FTM is much more likely to be the voice than the appearance.

erica12b
03-23-2006, 05:58 PM
if you had a cd that could dress with out any fem stuff and still look like a girl then it would be a girl and if a girl can dress in a guys stuff and look like guy ....
its minimal dressing

CaptLex
03-23-2006, 07:22 PM
if you had a cd that could dress without any fem stuff and still look like a girl then it would be a girl and if a girl can dress in a guys stuff and look like guy .... its minimal dressing
No matter what I wear, how I walk or what mannerisms I effect, I'm always read as a female - even before I open my mouth. Still working on it. :p


That's why I don't agree with Eddie Izzard about equal clothing rights. The gender cues help a crossdresser, and I think 'acceptance of crossdressing' is more desirable than 'equal clothing rights' to facilitate the goal of crossdressing in public openly.
Maria, Good point about Eddie's philosophy - I never thought about it like that. :straightface:

CharlaineCadence
04-25-2006, 05:37 AM
I think ftm and mtf have it about the same in many ways and the mtf having it harders in some ares like public eyes, news, ect.

but ftm have it easier in many ways such as clothing . you learn your size you are that size. mtf learn this makers size is one number, another makers size,is another number, "what it is suspose to fit me it says it should fit me! i'm not that big! I'm FAT WANAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! Ok yes i did this in the middle of the dressing rooms in macy's after consulting with their sizing charts.

id as a mtf we are shopping in boy mode we are looked at as odd, sickos, and or perv's but ftm your just shopping for what you like.

but hay its fun in many ways
kiss kiss
char

Sarah Rabbit
04-25-2006, 06:49 AM
While you MTFs can take off your wigs and makeup and look like normal guys when you want to.

I do think the MTFs have it harder socially, however, because of the stigma to CDing. But that's another issue.

What if I do not want to look like a "Normal Guy"? If given the choice, I would stay 'femme'. Maybe the grass seems greener on the other side.

Hugs, Sarah R.:bunny:

~Dee~
04-25-2006, 08:30 AM
i see that there are problems all around.

yes, social dressing cues do work against you in one aspect .. as you might be seen as butch rather than male ..
but then you also potentially sidestep some forms of retribution because of it.

you find it hard to produce facial hair to help give the obvious look.. but then again mtf's have to hide their beards instead..

a lot of you might have to bind .. and we have to tuck ..
:rolleyes:

there is a sort of minority thing going on with ftm's, but then mtf's are sometimes seen as perverts and disturbed as a knee-jerk reaction.

ive kind of thought about this a little .. and i see lots of problems from both sides of the coin.

but, personally.. im glad to be mtf rather than having to experience the other side of it.

i suppose its a matter of what you are used to .. how much you feel is right and what is possible.
i dont want to be insulting in saying that i pity people ... but i do feel bad for any transgendered person who finds it hard to be themselves.
i hate that i have what remains of my facial hair .. it freaks me out when i see a mirror .. but im dealing with it .. and i suppose from my point of view .. i kinda i do see that its easier to deal with my problems than if i was ftm.
but then .. i dont really truly know what it would be like .. so its a bit of a far flung theory and a lot of guess work ..
ok, my brain hurts now
:happy:

but thats my thoughts on the matter.

D.

gennee
05-02-2006, 06:57 PM
To me, MTF's have it much harder. I could not go out and dressed en femme without being concerned for my well being. You have it easier because you can wear pretty much anything you desire. There's too much machismo in society and I have never been one but I'm not weak either. Count yourselves blessed.

Gennee

Abraxas
05-02-2006, 10:33 PM
We get just as much hassle when we slap on some facial hair and wander into the mens' loo if we get read. There's just as much of a chance of us getting beaten or having management called as with MTFs.

RevMoonSerpent
05-02-2006, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by Abraxas
We get just as much hassle when we slap on some facial hair and wander into the mens' loo if we get read. There's just as much of a chance of us getting beaten or having management called as with MTFs.

Amen

Anita Mae GG
05-11-2006, 04:34 PM
I mean, dressing wise. I'm sure the MTF will disagree, and I'm sure this discussion has gone on before. But they have wigs that can come on and off, makeup that can come on and off, jewelry and other accessories that enhance their femininity, while we're pretty much bare. I mean, if we have a feminine face, too bad, because there's not much we can do to hide it. There's not a lot of "male markers" because so much is unisex now. And for those of us who don't live full time, we pretty much have to cut our hair short and end up looking like a butch lesbian when we aren't dressed. While you MTFs can take off your wigs and makeup and look like normal guys when you want to.

I do think the MTFs have it harder socially, however, because of the stigma to CDing. But that's another issue.

I agree totally

Stephanie Miller
06-06-2006, 01:48 AM
Lex: “But, all crossdressers, transgendered and transsexuals
have it hard.” YES! We’re all in the same boat. I don’t
think either group wants to go for the “we have it
harder” award.

Fainne the King: Wigs that come on and off:
The hair in my avatar is mine. Mind you it's flat and I
just put it in a pony tail at work though. ( I’m in
construction company management too, not just a mid
level worker) in Arizona wigs are out. Today was 114
deg.
Make-up on and off:
Men are stuck with who they are. Ever see a boy in high
school live through a day with foundation on because
he’s trying to cover zits? How about a little contour in
the jaw bone to look more muscular. O.k., one more –
pluck the old catapillar eyebrows that join together
above the nose, then bring it up to the boys at the bar.
Nope, we don’t like it – we just live with it that way.
Jewelry:
I don’t wear a watch ever – always wear a cross
necklace never have taken of my wedding ring in 30 yrs.
Earrings:
When I go femm and wear, they are sping loaded and I
don’t even know they are there after 15 min.
Forget the beard thing. I use to have a beard that was
so thick I had a 5 o’clock shadow by noon. I had to go
through 3 YEARS! of laser to get rid of it. You know
what? To date nobody has ever notice I got rid of it! (I
have 4 VERY macho brothers too)

gennee: All things being equal in the legal end……. I really think
this is an area that tends in favor of the FtM. I
unfortunately have been in a couple of situations where,
had I not been very well trained in martial arts to help ,
several of my “girlfriends” could have been hurt
by “Macho" guys” needing to prove themselves. Due to
us “threatening them with our femininity or what, I don’t
know, but we tried several times to just walk away. They
wouldn’t let us without a rumble. ( Here is a guy clue:
your “jewels” are very vulnerable to pointed high-heels
as a first strike!) And yet - on the other end of the
spectrum, males have been taught since a young age to
never hit girls. It really doesn’t matter what they are
wearing. So your chance of avoiding physical pain is
diminished. Verbal? Heck, I think we’re equal.


Natural females will never know the discomfort of hot sweaty “jewels” in summer. Jock straps? Oh, gosh no!
I’ve worn breast forms playing tennis in hot weather too, has to be worse than the real thing that can breath – but I still got the point.
Now, with all that said I love the comfort of skirts, but………
I still hate girdles!!! :swear:
Hugs to all,
Stephaine

CaptLex
06-06-2006, 07:14 PM
I don't want to play the "who has it worse" game, but I beg to differ on some points here:


O.k., one more – pluck the old catapillar eyebrows that join together above the nose, then bring it up to the boys at the bar.
Maybe it's a regional thing, but I've seen lots of men who pluck the unibrow 'cause it's actually considered unsightly (and neanderthal-looking) to walk around with that Frida Kahlo look where I come from.


All things being equal in the legal end……. I really think this is an area that tends in favor of the FtM. I unfortunately have been in a couple of situations where, had I not been very well trained in martial arts to help, several of my “girlfriends” could have been hurt by “Macho" guys” needing to prove themselves. Due to us “threatening them with our femininity or what, I don’t know, but we tried several times to just walk away. They wouldn’t let us without a rumble. . . . And yet - on the other end of the spectrum, males have been taught since a young age to never hit girls. It really doesn’t matter what they are wearing. So your chance of avoiding physical pain is diminished. Verbal? Heck, I think we’re equal.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, Stephanie! I'll accept that you may have never seen it, but I know of some FtMs that have been beaten up for their masculine appearance. I suppose the macho-brained thinking is, "If you want to be one of the boys, let's see if you can take it." Sorry, I won't concede this point. And if you really believe that men won't hit women, then you must have never seen a battered wife or girlfriend. I'd love to visit your planet.


Natural females will never know the discomfort of hot sweaty “jewels” in summer. Jock straps? Oh, gosh no! I’ve worn breast forms playing tennis in hot weather too, has to be worse than the real thing that can breath – but I still got the point.
Oh no . . . breast forms don't even begin to compare to the heat, sweat and itchy rashes produced by the real thing - trust me. :rolleyes:

Stephanie Miller
06-06-2006, 10:38 PM
I too am not here to make this forum a tit for tat ( no pun intended:blushing: ). Both you Lex and CaptLex are intitled to your opinions as am I. I think we (ts,tg, cd etc..) are a little bit more touchy on these things. I'll wager that most FtMs probably accentuate or try to but can't quite look natural enough in your actions which agrivates you. AS DO MtFs! I mean, I'm sure I, for example, probably extend my pinky more than the average GG :battingeyelashes: . If I tried to sound feminine they would peg me as a bad E.T :alien: . Then we get really pissed if we get read. As if it's someone elses fault we meesed up. But we keep trying don't we.
Now I really do understand - just a little mind you - on how tough it is to prove yourself in a mans world. I grew up the oldest of 5 boys. But everyone of them is over 6' and 225 lb. I never broke 5'9" 130lb until I was 35. I'm still only 155lb at 5'9 1/2". Dad is an ex Marine. I had to not only keep my place in the pecking order of brothers but school was a bitch. ( If they ever met Stephanie, it all would have been for naught!) Henseforth the martial arts, combat shooting, boxing etc. I got in more fights in high school just trying to prove to everyone I wasn't a mommas boy.
It's really not an easy road either of us have in front. But if your ever in my neck of the woods, make contact and I'll buy you a beer and a game of pool (belching included of course). Of course you'll owe me a manicure!

hugs to you both. ( Yes, even macho guys :hugs: )
Stephanie

P.S. I just posted a couple of photos in the photo forum so you can see what still can kick some ass if needed. I look macho eh?:D

Jennaie
06-07-2006, 01:19 PM
As far as passing in public is concerned, I agree that ftm's have it harder. I think your right about the ftm's being socially accepted better as well.

I do know this, if I saw a woman, dressed like a man in a male dressing room area trying on clothing, or in a male bathroom, I would not give it a second thought. I would just say hello or nod and go on about my business.