Are you bros with your gal pals?

[michelleddg]

As a rule, I am. While I adore being dolled up and out and about, my being is fundamentally male. I tire quickly when the conversation focuses on "girl things" e.g., fashion, chick flicks, and the like. Even with my gal pals, be they genetic males or females, if we aren't discussing things that appeal to my dude side I get fidgety in a hurry.

As a case in point I bring you my Texas Bestie, Sandy Clifton. We love our gal pal adventures but we're also bros for sure. Last weekend we got together for a group run and covered our usual topics - pro sports, college sports, athletics, politics, family, travel, and so forth. I tallied it up, and we've run over 60 miles together in the last 2 years; that's a lot considering we live 150 miles apart. Sometimes we discuss gal pal stuff but it's predominantly bro stuff.

After the run just the two of us snuck off for breakfast tacos and the girl talk kicked in. Perhaps a bit odd for two adult bearded men to be discussing wigs and cleavage, but nobody around us was listening and besides what would it matter if they were?

So, are you bros with your gal pals? Share your thoughts! Hugs, Michelle

[Tracii G]

I have lots of friends some are gal pals (GG) and some are CD gal pals.
Some are bro pals and oh its way too complicated to go into details how I make it all work but I do.

[Micki_Finn]

Women can’t discuss sports, politics, family, travel so forth? As evidenced by this forum, there are plenty of men who like to talk about heels and makeup and corsets. You need to stop thinking in traditional gender roles and binary language. Its new times and very few things are strictly “male” or “female” anymore.

[Meghan4now]

Michelle, I'm going to go with Micki on this one. For example my wife can hold her own on alternative rock, sports, etc. Yeah I still talk about brewing, home repair, camping, hiking, pig roasting etc more than fashion, but I talk more about girl stuff than 90 Percent of guys I know. But most women I know tend to have pretty diverse subjects too.

[Sara Jessica]

I totally get what Michelle is saying. A dear friend of mine once said that friendship needs to transcend the trans thing and I have found this to be 100% true in the lasting friendships that I have been blessed with.

[Phoebe Reece]

I can relate. My closest gal pals are also my closest guy pals. Conversations between us cover the gamut of both traditional feminine and masculine topics.

[docrobbysherry]

Oh please! I was bored with typical male boasting, meaningless blathering, and childish jokes eons before I began dressing!:thumbsdn:

Women talk is simply the other side of that! Also bores me quickly. :sad:

On the other hand, I can chat with other dressers all nite!:D

[suzanne]

Not exactly. But I am sisters with a former dress shop SA who has become a dear friend. Every so often, I take an afternoon off work so we can have lunch and then go clothes shopping. That's what happened today. We had a great, long conversation then bought matching trenchcoats. I credit a lot of my boost in self confidence to her. She was one of the first to tell me I was a beautiful person and not a freak, then she taught me how to pick out the right clothes and how to assemble them into a presentable outfit.

[ReneeTD]

Don't really have close CD friends, so it's hard to say what I'd even talk about. I'd likely be as quiet in such a setting as I am in all settings.

No quicker way to turn me off in conversation than to shift to pro sports, college sports or athletics. No talent or interest in it. Zero.

I'm not really sure what "gal pals" would talk about other than people and relationships. I can do that to a degree, though I avoid gossip type conversations.

[Samm]

I've met only one forum friend in male mode. I've met several in girl mode, not to mention dozens of girls not related to this forum. I wouldn't run and hide if I were to run into any of them in male mode, but I kind of prefer to keep it separate from the girl side. Maybe because I never really connected much with the whole "bro" thing.
That's just me, anyway.

[alwayshave]

Don't have any cd friends per se, but if I did, I would tend to keep the separate.

[BrendaPDX]

Gal pals when in femme for me

[Beverley Sims]

Mine are separate also gal pals when dressed and bros when in drab.

[Stephanie47]

Michelle brings up a good point. My friends tend to fall into interest categories. I have friends who share a common history. Or a common interest. I have a lot of casual acquaintances and they remain such because there is no commonality to the relationship; neighbors for instance. I often wonder if I was to find a fellow CDer, whether there would be anything to the relationship other than we liked to wear women's clothing. Would that alone create a basis for a friendship?

[JeanTG]

Like ReneeTD, I have absolutely zero interest in pro sports. Well, maybe the Tour de France but only superficially. Most typical male conversation bores me but I do have male friends and our conversations can get deep and philosophical or spiritual, or be about common technical interests, or about odds and sods like car/house repairs, health, etc. I do like to talk about the two sports I indulge in though, mountain hiking/snowshoeing and cycling. All of the male friends I keep are in this category.

I tend to identify well with women and can converse easily with them.

I have no CD friends that I have met live. And it isn't high on my priority because when I'm en femme, I prefer to identify as a woman and not be reminded that I'm not. Best time I ever had was in drab, with 3 women who worked for a supplier back in my work days, and who took me out to lunch; I was about 50 or so at the time, they were up to about 40. It was surreal, they let me into their "world" as if I was one of their girlfriends, talked about all sorts of things women talk about: giving birth, raising children, sex with their husbands (in a general way), female health issues, you name it. I wasn't wearing a stitch of female clothing at the time, but I have rarely felt as feminine since. They did not know about my proclivities. I guess I didn't seem threatening to them. Lovely time!

[Teresa]

Michelle ,
I can bore most people on a range of subjects ! No seriously in my photography profession I had to have a broad range of subjects I could talk to people about and also tried to be a good listener , it was all to get people to relax when having their portrait taken .

I must admit I hate the feeling from people intentionally excluding you from a conversation . Both my brother in laws are farmers , I try and keep up with the overall picture but it's pretty obvious that I'm only there to listen and not contribute , I then felt just as awkward chatting to the ladies in male mode , in the end I just enjoyed the good wine on offer and watched the TV , my wife said I was very quite on the way home , I just replied I was being very sociable with the wine bottle !!

[Joyce Swindell]

This was one of my earliest desires as a CD. To have a friend/buddy to do guy stuff with while dressed in fem or drab. Fact is that my wife is encouraging me towards the same. I'm not gay or bi curious and she knows that and trusts me.

I'm not certain how to make it happen so ...if it's in the cards to be then it will be.

[sometimes_miss]

As evidenced by this forum, there are plenty of men who like to talk about heels and makeup and corsets.
Ahhh, yes, but how many guys love to get into conversations about babies, the lives of other women's children, relationships, commitment, and especially the 'what do you think he means when he does/says this', type of discussion? How about decorating the house? Picking out curtains/towels/furniture styles/paint colors? After going over the 27,000 possible different shades of white paint for our ceilings with one lady, along with the variable qualities of flat, semi gloss, gloss, I thought I was going blind and my head would explode.

Ugh, I'd rather drill screws through my toes.

Don't get me wrong, I do care for the women that I am close to. But for the life of me, I cannot stand discussing the same things over and over for hours.

There is a cure, though. Start wearing a hearing aid. Just never turn it on. I can also blame my lack of response to near deafness due to tinnitis, which by it's very nature, can vary in intensity so you may be able to hear just fine on one day, and be overcome by the ringing and be almost deaf the next.

[Sara Jessica]

This whole thing cracks me up. We are human beings with varying interests. I have crossed paths with CDers who are singularly focused on such things related to their craft and I find myself bored silly, hoping never to cross paths with them again. It's like it seems as if a part is being played when one cannot express any interest in something that might be considered manly (i.e. - sports), lest someone think one is less feminine than they profess to be. Seriously, let's go see the Vegas Golden Knights playing my Ducks in girl mode...right on!

Clearly, it seems like a case of thou dost protest too much, or something like that. Women like sports. Women like many of the things that guys think they hold sacred and guess what? These pages are littered with dudes who are more obsessive about sacred women stuff than most women could ever be.

God, I have some amazing friends. It starts with point of view but even that is different.

K. Probably my most like-minded friend. Family, career, staving off transition in favor of both yet she has the coolest photographic edge where she can indulge in a wonderful lust for expression and attention. She helped me to get through some dark years by reminding me to stay grounded with respect to what is most important. K can be a bro that I run with if I liked running more and if we lived a bit closer. K and I have been gal pals. We have been bros. And we have stood proudly with one another as one of each. K, as S, did the most wonderful thing by attending with me the funeral of dear friend C. I could never ask for a better friend in either presentation.

E. Fabulously successful, witty and a wonderful conversationalist. Someone who I had sensed would have a lot in common with me, and apparently vice-versa. I can only hope that I have added a fraction of the enrichment to her life as she has to mine. Our families have a remarkable similarity and this, along with music often dominates conversation. Despite my being in a wilderness of sorts of late, she and I have gotten together, gal pal & bro, with the only difference being expression. E is the epitome of middle path and perhaps defined it in the first place, a CD with a significant social presence.

A. I'm looking at you. The most interesting man in the world is one of the most amazing, fearless women I know. To know her is to love her, just ask all of our friends. She opens up her home and we get to experience moments of being, whatever that might mean to us. I have floated in her pool. We have made dinner and drank fine signature cocktails to near excess. A is for awesome and we are so blessed to have you in our lives. I can never hear "Your Song" without thinking of you.

S. OMG, we can only live in your world to touch a corner of it. Have we ever had a conversation about what it is to be CD, TG, TS or whatever it is that defines that part of us? If so, not so extensive. But we have talked endlessly about family and navigation to the point where I can only hope that I have offered some help to you because when all is said and done, you are one amazing person.

D. OK, I'm cheating. You are a GG for lack of a better descriptive term. I love it that when you first encountered me, you knew damn well I was T-whatever but you thought I would be interesting and as such, you reached out to me. You have no idea what it did for my self-esteem as our friendship progressed. As much as I love and adore each of my friends above, you have to understand how much you have touched my life and more importantly, each and every one of us. I'm now listening to "Your Song" for you as well. For all my friends, how wonderful life is while you're in the world. Yours is a heart of gold.

H, I mean J, I mean the name you are going by now. Another OMG, a flame burning so bright. What an amazing short Vegas trip we had following a connection on the basis of understanding one another plus family. You are such a gal pal bro in that you never hesitate to call me if it has been too long since we have spoken. And of course, I remain in your debt when it came to the advice you gave me regarding a career change a couple years ago. You may or may not have helped me to seal the deal but regardless, it worked and I will never forget that. Just as I will never underestimate your friendship.

This is what it comes down to, true friendship. Meeting a CD and talking about nothing but such things is not likely to go far. Friendship isn't playing a part while wearing a costume. It has to be real and what I have described ever so briefly above is nothing but the real thing of which I couldn't be more grateful.

My friends, I love you all. I want to emerge from this wilderness with each of you at my side. Vegas 2020???

This includes you M(ichelle). How does so many years go by without crossing paths IRL? You and your gal pal crew will fit in so well with mine. We will talk sports and Jimmy Choo, maybe some running and perhaps an Elton John concert before he hangs up his glasses. This better happen in Vegas. Spring 2020, will you be there?

[Ceera]

I am living full time as a woman, and I am definitely “one of the girls” among my gal pals. Not a “bro” at all. Most of them are lesbians. Some are into sports, be it playing women’s softball themselves, or cheering for the local college’s women’s basketball team. I am the cheerleader for the women’s softball team. I go to women’s basketball games with some of them, when invited, but admit that while I like seeing our team win, I am mostly interested in seeing a lively competition. Otherwise, we mostly talk about “women’s stuff”. And that includes “feminine problems”, like getting hot flashes with menopause, or using gadgets that allow a woman to pee standing up, while camping. We talk a lot about music and dancing. Sometimes about pets, cooking, or family stuff. The dykes don’t talk much about fashion or makeup, but they appreciate my fashion sense and makeup skills. The femmes or straight/bi gals chat freely with me about clothes, makeup, shoes and other girl stuff. Sometimes it turns to politics and social activism. But not at all like the typical conversations I used to have with my male friends, as a male.

[Ressie]

I agree with sometimes_miss. Girl talk gets into subjects that don't interest me. There are women in my life that I enjoy talking with very much. But when I find myself with a group of women topics come up that have me feeling left out.

[Asew]

For me it is basically boils down to the topic, I feel there are equal amounts of girl and boy topics I do well with. At my first GNO with maybe a dozen CDers, it was weird realizing they as much as they talk about clothes and makeup, they also talk about sports and cars. People talk about what they know and are interested in.

[Rhonda Jean]

What you're reminding me of is that it is so rare for us to know each other as a whole person. For me anyway, it's almost unheard of for ANYBODY to know the whole me, on either side of the aisle. I think it is incredibly healthy that some of you can talk about bras and makeup while both of you are in total guy mode! With very few exceptions, the male and female aspects of my life are so far apart that one doesn't know the other exists. It is a quantum leap in understanding and acceptance to make those things ONE life and ONE person.

[michelleddg]

God, I have some amazing friends.



SJ, thanks soooo much for sharing your lovely homage to your besties, so uplifting! And, thanks for understanding so completely what I was trying to convey in this thread. You and I have been chatting since 2011 and have made so many plans to meet up that just fell a bit short, but Spring 2020 in Las Vegas for sure. Book it, Danno! Hugs, Michelle

[MoGG]

Sometimes_miss,always misogynist!

If you find that the majority of the population are so boring and repetitive that you can’t pay attention to us, I think the fault is more likely to be with you as the real common denominator.

Women can and do discuss the same range of topics as men. Perhaps with you they realise you aren’t up to in-depth discussion - or perhaps your beliefs about women mostly being gold-digging *****s (as expressed in the shorts pocket conversation) or happy relationships being a fiction leak out and women you speak to are deliberately trying to shut off a real conversation with you.

[Sara Jessica]

SJ, thanks soooo much for sharing your lovely homage to your besties, so uplifting! And, thanks for understanding so completely what I was trying to convey in this thread. You and I have been chatting since 2011 and have made so many plans to meet up that just fell a bit short, but Spring 2020 in Las Vegas for sure. Book it, Danno! Hugs, Michelle

I'm so glad you get where I am coming from. It was sort of a stream of consciousness post fueled by musical memories and more than a few tears. Yes, what you wrote resonated with me which is why I felt compelled to share. Even if you are the only one here who appreciates it, I'm so happy to have taken the time to put my feelings to paper.


Ahhh, yes, but how many guys love to get into conversations about babies, the lives of other women's children, relationships, commitment, and especially the 'what do you think he means when he does/says this', type of discussion? How about decorating the house? Picking out curtains/towels/furniture styles/paint colors? After going over the 27,000 possible different shades of white paint for our ceilings with one lady, along with the variable qualities of flat, semi gloss, gloss, I thought I was going blind and my head would explode.

Ugh, I'd rather drill screws through my toes.

I'm not sure I'm understanding your POV, mostly because it is polar opposite to mine.

My dearly departed friend C and I used to close down restaurants with hours of the very conversation you disdain. I used to say that I'd never do such a thing with my "bro" friends but you know what? The love of communication is apparently part of my wiring and I am happy having meaningful conversations with anyone who I can call a friend.

[Sandy Clifton]

The more things you have in common with a friend, the better, though
it's certainly viable to have pals with more narrow mutual interests.
I enjoy "talking shop" with others who have an enthusiasm for techniques
of female presentation (it's not a topic I get to chat about in my day-to-day
life, so I relish the opportunity); it's ideal if the interest overlap goes further.

[susan54]

I prefer the company of women however I am dressed. I do not know any other CDs and do not seek their company outside the web. The conversations I have with women when I am dressed are almost the same as when I am not and at most, less than 5% of the time will be related to clothes etc. I don't ever talk about or watch sport with anyone and am only slightly interested in cars (which limits conversation with a huge proportion of the male population). My closest friends have always been women and I find social situations such as parties where men congregate with men and women with women very uncomfortable. Women are every bit as capable as men in holding intelligent conversations about politics, music, science, books as men. The same goes for coming up with witty one-liners.

[Julie Slowinski]

When I go out with my CD friends, I’m not entirely sure what we talk about, but we definitely have no shortage of conversation. I think a fair amount is about family (complaining about our wives), probably politics, maybe a little sports. Before going out we’ll text about outfit choices and will definitely talk about such things while shopping.

But, I think I agree that the best way to describe a night out with my friends is that it’s very much like a night out with the guys - except we’re all wearing fabulous dresses.

[Becky Blue]

Mich I get what you are saying... I don't think a mutual interest in Trans topics can sustain a real friendship. I have had and do have a number of close girlfriends who are 'real friends' in the sense that we talk about everything.

[sometimes_miss]

Sometimes_miss,always misogynist!

If you find that the majority of the population are so boring and repetitive that you can’t pay attention to us, I think the fault is more likely to be with you as the real common denominator.

Women can and do discuss the same range of topics as men. Perhaps with you they realise you aren’t up to in-depth discussion - or perhaps your beliefs about women mostly being gold-digging *****s (as expressed in the shorts pocket conversation) or happy relationships being a fiction leak out and women you speak to are deliberately trying to shut off a real conversation with you.

Where did I write anything about gold digging (expletive)? I don't remember writing that anywhere. Where are you getting this stuff?

Oh, I'll talk about the topics that women do, just not endlessly. I watch the women I work with talking to each other about all this for many hours at a time, rehashing the same thing over and over and over; and I ask myself, to what end?

Maybe read some material about how men and women communicate differently. Then you will understand. Men bond through shared activity. Women bond through talking with each other, often to no particular point. Men speak primarily with direct language; women, indirect language. Try picking up a starter book by Barbara and Alan Pease, such as, 'Why men don't listen and women can't read maps'.

https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Listen-Women-Cant-Read/dp/0767907639

I think that you'll find it fascinating reading, since you obviously haven't researched the topic yet.

Their associated books are all similar, and give lots of examples of why we have trouble understanding each other. Unless, of course, you're quite content just branding us as misogynists as you have, me, blaming all the communication problems on men, and prefer to leave it at that.

[AngelaYVR]

With my close CD friend we like to talk about work, autos (we both drive high performance cars, get two petrol heads together and that’s it) as well as lots of girl stuff. When with my GG friends we talk about everything: family, music, life. Just “girly” stuff would get old quickly.

[MoGG]

Where did I write anything about gold digging (expletive)? I don't remember writing that anywhere. Where are you getting this stuff?
From the forum. You do know we can see each other's comment histories, right? No, you didn't actually use the word gold-digging, that was a paraphrase, but seeing you are here writing about how women's talk is so boring and repetitive you have to pretend not to hear it, I find it bizarre you are outraged to be called out as misogynistic.


Maybe read some material about how men and women communicate differently. Then you will understand. Men bond through shared activity. Women bond through talking with each other, often to no particular point. Men speak primarily with direct language; women, indirect language. Try picking up a starter book by Barbara and Alan Pease, such as, 'Why men don't listen and women can't read maps'.
https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Listen-Women-Cant-Read/dp/0767907639
I think that you'll find it fascinating reading, since you obviously haven't researched the topic yet.

I wondered - why would I read something written by motivational speakers, when there are so many worthy books on the topic written by actual scientists in the field. Testosterone Rex: Myths of Sex, Science, and Society by Cordelia Fine, also author of Delusions of Gender (and lest you think I am cherrypicking and this is not supported by mainstream science, it won the Royal Society Book Prize in 2017), Brain Storm: The Flaws in the Science of Sex Differences by Rebecca Jordan-Young, Myths of Gender: Biological Theories about Women and Men by Anne Fausto-Sterling.

However, as an online library had a copy of your recommendation (I'm certainly not paying for it), I had a look.
Didn't you find it odd that the book claims to be oh so scientific, and yet references almost nothing, not even graphs? Didn't you find it odd that the bibliography at the end was heavy on titles such as "Love Lies", "Love Codes", "Everything Men know about Women...", as if this was of equal weight to a scientific paper.

Also, I can't believe you think I am harsh on men, when you are recommending a book that states that when a man's brain is in its resting state, at least 70% of its electrical activity is shut down but only 10% is for women, claims that men kick small animals if no one is looking, and contains such lovely quotes as "Men like sex with the lights on so they can get the woman's name right". Didn't these "scientific facts" make you a bit suspicious?


Their associated books are all similar, and give lots of examples of why we have trouble understanding each other. Unless, of course, you're quite content just branding us as misogynists as you have, me, blaming all the communication problems on men, and prefer to leave it at that.
This is a joke book using a lot of silly stereotypes about men and women, that I hope is meant as a parody of that seminal fribble of pseudo-science, "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus". If it was meant to be taken seriously, it would be a pretty offensive portrait of men as a lot of grunting, barely intelligent rapists and cross-dressers couldn't exist in its world view at all.

I certainly don't believe that of all, or even the vast majority of men. Do you?

I suspect you are unable to keep up with conversations and all the gender stereotyping is just protecting a fragile ego. If you are worried that women are laughing at you because you don't know what they are talking about, or find you have to get them to repeat things constantly, I think most people are genuinely nice and don't mind.

[Eemz]

Mich I get what you are saying... I don't think a mutual interest in Trans topics can sustain a real friendship. I have had and do have a number of close girlfriends who are 'real friends' in the sense that we talk about everything.

I do a lot of scuba diving, which is a very mixed sport, and I will happily to talk to other divers of any gender about gear, bottom times, ascent profiles and what have you. But if that's all we have in common then the conversation won't last very long, or at least it will get fake and boring really fast. I think that's the same with all shared-interest groups. I met some of my best friends through diving, but they're my friends because we share a lot more than that. Diving was common ground that gave us a place to start.

I haven't met many CDs in real life yet. Some were lovely (Helen) but another bored the... forms... off me talking about Brexit and tax incentives. I learned that day that if you take a boring guy and put a dress on him... it doesn't help. Somehow it's worse, if anything.


On the "sometimes" misogyny and other general crazy talk... I read that as either trolling or misplaced anger issues, neither of which is worth my time.

[shellybme]

Michelle brings up a good point. My friends tend to fall into interest categories. I have friends who share a common history. Or a common interest. I have a lot of casual acquaintances and they remain such because there is no commonality to the relationship; neighbors for instance. I often wonder if I was to find a fellow CDer, whether there would be anything to the relationship other than we liked to wear women's clothing. Would that alone create a basis for a friendship?

That is very interesting! I have tried to make CD friendships but if there is nothing past the fact we both like to wear women's clothing, how can you create a true relationship. Very great point its making me think a lot. Thank you!