Being realistic !

[Teresa]

I have a thread running at the moment about my sister in law meeting up with me to choose some furniture , this is a continuation and to me something new to think about .

So far I've related stories to mostly experiences buying clothes , over the years I've been through the various stepping stones of being underdressed and wondering if the SA had noticed and gradually building my confidence to shop totally dressed . I've reached the point where using women's changing rooms doesn't phase me at all . At times I do wonder what the SAs and other customers think , wondering how well I pass , I know I've been saying for a while that very few if any of us do pass 100%, we really do have too many telltales .

Buying my furniture has made me think we have to be more realistic , when we say we pass the only true answer is 100% but as a TG not as a woman .

I decided to buy my furniture on on an interest free deal , mainly because I need to sit on my capital to do other jobs around my home , so this is where the big reveals happen . The first problem was because I have only lived in my new home for just over a year I had to give details of my previous address , which also came with a raft of questions about marital status and children . I then had to supply a photo ID to verify who I was and my true address so I used my driving licence . OK I could have avoided all this if I'd just paid in cash or my debit card but I actually didn't mind , to me I was being realistic in showing I'm TG , I wasn't ashamed to admit it , there was no way I was going to pass because of the obvious paper trail we leave through our lives and the answers to the questions I'd just been asked . I actually feel a stronger person and more comfortable being TG because I've shown people it isn't a problem and they have treated me with respect and courtesy in return . That also could be because they may think I've transitioned but they have no way of knowing unless I chose to tell them but I see no point in that , obviously I did do all the transactions using my femme name and avoided ticking the MR. box as my title .

I'm now considering making up a carefully worded questionaire to ask the sales people I dealt with what their thoughts and feelings are towards the TG community , I appreciate I will have to take care but most of us do wonder so what harm is there in actually finding out . I will certainly pass on any information when I have it .

I also hope I haven't burst anyone's bubble , the passing question keeps coming up , at the moment there is a thread in the TS section about voice training because of being misgendered , I hate to say this but we are basically born as we are , some will always be misgendered no matter how much you practice your voice or attempt to change other aspects . As I've shown life has it's little traps which we can't avoid, our history can't be totally eradicated but saying that I wouldn't want mine to be so .

I wasn't sure where to post this thread until I realised it does have relevence in this section as it's the one the majority of members start their journey , so I hope it does give people here something to think about .

[Micki_Finn]

Do NOT make a questionnaire for SAs please? They have jobs to do that do NOT include filling out some (no offense) stupid poll handed to them by a customer. You are intruding on their time, and their bosses’ time. Especially if you’re going to ask something as personal as their views on transgenderism. This is really rude on many levels.

[Robertacd]

I have to agree with everyone else, just don't.

[Tracii G]

Teresa you have no right to ask people to fill out a questionaire.
1. its rude as hell.
2. its none of your business what they feel about it.

[vplshowoff]

Teresa, you are unrealistic to think that SAs would fill out your questionnaire. If I were am SA and was handed a questionnaire, then I'd politely give it back to you. It looks to me as a trap to get documentation for a lawsuit. The furniture SA asked all those questions because the interest free deal is actually a credit purchase. The store had to check your credit rating and likely set up a store credit card for you.

[Teresa]

To reply to all , I wasn't suggesting handing them a questionaire only to carefully ask them verbally , I fully appreciate the points made , I can be very sensitive and will approach the subject very carefully , if I do decide to go ahead . This wasn't the main point of my thread only something I'm thinking about .

VPL,
I realise why the questions were asked , the point is even if I felt I fully passed while viewing the items the questions revealed a different picture when I sat down to make the transactions .

We see so many comments about members stating they fully pass , it's a very short lived bubble , the real point of my thread is trying to be realistic and accept passing is only a fleeting moment so many things give us away it's how comfortably and confidently you deal with it . I see my TG situation as part of my life but not something that's going to dominate it .

[Micki_Finn]

1) Even verbally asking a sales associate is rude.
2) You’re not going to get any useful information as you, a person on the TG spectrum, will be right there in their face asking the question so even if they do choose to answer, you absolutely cannot rely on that answer to be honest.

[Robertacd]

Frankly when it comes to people who I will never see again, like a salesman, or credit desk clerk, I have no problem telling them I am transgender. I guess because I really don't care what they think or if they accept me.

Besides it's the truth and it's all they need to know.

[Teresa]

Roberta,
The point is I don't need to tell them, they make their own assumptions , they have my femme name and surname what they deduce from that is up to them . I will be seeing them again as I have to return to the carpet department to confirm my carpet order and I have to finally confirm the colourway details to the furniture SA . I also have to visit the curtaining department to view materials and get some idea of prices , so no doubt I will have several visits to make there .

Micki,
If I do go ahead am I to assume you won't believe a word I say , please give me more credit than that , I would neither BS them or any members here and if the whole idea does go pearshaped I will admit to the fact . Don't forget I'm not just doing this for myself but to pass on any help I can to other members .

[Tracii G]

My thought is you most likely won't get an honest answer sadly.
I know when I do a survey on the phone or on paper I don't really tell the right answers just to skew the results.
I enjoy being the + or - 3 %

[Micki_Finn]

If I do go ahead am I to assume you won't believe a word I say , please give me more credit than that , I would neither BS them or any members here and if the whole idea does go pearshaped I will admit to the fact . Don't forget I'm not just doing this for myself but to pass on any help I can to other members .

I’m not saying YOU will lie, I’m telling you that your “subjects” will lie. Do you really think a customer service person is going to tell a customer, while they are working, “I think you’re a freak and an aberration”? There’s a reason scientific studies are done double-blind.

[Teresa]

Micki,
Just to please you I'll forget the idea , maybe it's the problem again between the two cultures but we are a little more laid back as it turns out in the UK and maybe more open , besides it's sidetracking my main point .

[Allisa]

I don't see what the fuss is all about. If you want to make others aware that they more than likely do not "pass" that's fine. But when "confronted" with questions about lifestyle and such why even go into your gender expression or lack there of? I just give info that is pertinent and let the others draw their own conclusions, I don't hide who I am, they get what they see. All my I.D.s show as male and after all that is my physical and legal status. I choose to live and express as female and if asked I am happy to try and explain if they are truly curious. I guess it all goes back to "owning it", no shame, no guilt, doing nothing wrong, nothing illegal and if they don't like it it's their problem the I don't give a darn attitude.

[Sallee]

I seriously doubt whether a sales person cares how you are dressed as long as you can pass the credit check. If you want to be called Mrs and you check the Mr box thats still ok Money does the talking most of the time

[JenniferMBlack]

As a customer service representative for my company and a former SA, I can tell you this. What you get from a SA might not always be how they truly feel. They will be polite help you however they can and never laugh in your face. As soon as there are no customers around it's a big laugh to a lot of them. And no one will say anything negative to you. They have a job and that is part of it.

[Teresa]

Lisa ,
I was trying to make the point about passing and what exactly we are seen as . I'm sorry but I don't fully acccept not giving a darn about what they think , it concerns me why they may think like that , I still find I'm questioning myself at times , it's situations like this that really settle my doubts but I aways hope it's not at the expense of other people . It's immaterial to me whether I meet these people again or not, I'd like to think the next TG they meet gets as good as if not better treatment than I did not worse .

Sallee,
It's not about the money , most of those sales people are on a salary without a commission , it's all about accpeptance and integration of the TG community that is the real message I'm trying to get across . So many members are still uncertain to step out the door , please consider them when you make your replies .

I never dreamed I would be posting threads like this when I first joined , to read them was like a pipedream , it only happens to other people , well it can happen given the help and encouragement . I do wish more would consider that fact and remember this is basically a help forum .

[Gillian Gigs]

A sales associate will tell you anything that you want to hear to get the sale. Five minutes after you leave the store they have forgotten most of what happened. Imho, the best thing that a TS person can do is have a given name of the same initial as their birth name. Regardless of whether your photo ID and how you actually looks means little when facial biometrics are taken into account. The point is, are you as a CD'er, or TS person treated with proper respect? If a SA is rude, or unhelpful, then a store manager might be a person to talk to. Otherwise do your thing and enjoy being out doing whatever you are doing.

[docrobbysherry]

Teresa, I'm glad u coming over to my side!:thumbsup:

I've commented for years about the countless silly posts here from T's saying they passed and/or were complimented/ flattered by SA's or waitstaff!:heehee:

If u REALLY pass? Meaning that SA's or waitstaff think u r, without a doubt, female? They will treat u very differently than if u r trans! Because when they know you're a T? You'll likely get special, preferential treatment! Which u WON'T GET if u pass!:thumbsdn:

Teresa, I get what u want from SA's. But, u won't get it! You're very social. Just ask the strangers u meet when you're out and about what they think of trans? You'll get more honest answers!:straightface:

Personally? What others think of me is none of my business!:Angry3:

[bridget thronton]

It doesn't matter to me whether I pass or not - as long as people treat me politely (and for the most part I do not care what strangers think of me).

[Helen_Highwater]

Teresa,

Trying to understand how others perceive us is not in itself a bad thing. How you reach that understanding seems to be the issue.

Personally I initially rely on intuition, body language. I've interacted with SA's who I felt weren't that comfortable in dealing with me. I have to say that they make up the minority by a good margin.

Having given it consideration I too have to agree withthose who say direct questioning albeit vetbal isn't the way to go. An SA who finds CD/Trans folk an abomination, perhaps due to religious beliefs, isn't necessarily going to say so for fear of being hauled over the coals by management or for that matter another customer who holds diametrically opposed views.

For me the best you can do is engage someone in polite conversation and use your own intuition to measure the comfort level the respondents display. As a rule of thumb I find the willingness of say an SA to continue a conversation, or even to initiate one is a good barometer.

Of course if you're one of many customers stood in a queue then being less engaging isn't necessarily a measure of anything other than a need to process customers quickly.

I know you sit more towards the Trans end of the spectrum than I do. However I suspect that we present to the world in a similar vein so here's another aspect of direct questioning. We could illicit similar responses to the same question yet our circumstances would be different.

So my take overall on this is to simply rely on your spider senses and continue to report just what an accepting place the world can be and there are good decent people out there.

[Majella St Gerard]

I would nix the idea of the questionnaire.
The passing question now.
Anyone here that says they pass I believe are delusional, just because people don't call you out or are polite to you does not mean you PASS. I realize that when strangers make a point of telling me how good I look, they mean as a man presenting as a woman. I'll take that. I blend but do not pass, no matter how much smoke is blown up my ass.

[alwayshave]

Teresa, It seems every thing I buy now, I receive a survey. Doesn't matter car or something online. I no longer fill them out for a number of reasons. I believe that the data is not used nor do I think it would be well understood. Additionally, I am not being compensated for my time, which is very important. So I do not be believe that you should ask someone for their time.

[Rhonda Jean]

From my teens into my mid 20's I thought I passed 100% whenever I wanted to. I think it was easier back then because people were much less aware of us. Then I overheard a clerk make a comment to the customers behind me that left no doubt I didn't pass. That burst my bubble, scared me, and put me on a short-lived mission to find out how well I passed and why I didn't. I could not see it in my own mirror. To me, it was impossible to tell I wasn't a GG.

Over the course of a few weeks I went to about a dozen different places. I wore short skirts and dresses, business dresses, jeans and slacks. My own hair was bra strap length and I'd always have my hair and nails done and my makeup was as good as I could do it. I weighed about 125. I felt like I was totally undetectable. I went to restaurants, stores, anywhere I could have a close encounter with someone I could go back to later. Withing the next couple of days I'd go back to the same place in drab and make some (lame) comment like, "You probably don't recognize me from the other day...", and ask them how they knew. All of them knew. Most said they didn't know until I spoke. One said it was the veins in my hands. One said it was because I wore a leopard print bra under a thin black shirt (pretty sure that wasn't the reason), some said, "I don't know. I could just tell." BTW, when I went in as a woman, none of them reacted in a way that told me they read me. I was shocked that I didn't pass.

I thought I'd fix that by dressing "more feminine" (Remember, this was when I was very young and didn't know any better). I remember distinctly buying an electric blue spandex mini dress and finding stiletto heels that matched perfectly. More makeup, more jewelry, more extreme hair... I thought I'd just overwhelm any evidence I was male. As you can guess, that didn't work at all.

Over decades of doing living this life I can tell you that the people who have known me as a regular customer, whether it's stores, hair salons, nail salons, or restaurants think I'm TS. They either assumed early on that I'm transitioning or I told them I am. I've told people I'm "just a crossdresser", but people have a more positive reaction to me when they think I'm transitioning or have transitioned.

Some of my best experiences came about specifically because I didn't completely pass. The conversations, comments, and overall reactions from people I've encountered who are fascinated by me are the best! I've gone into situations expecting/looking for and forward to the reveal (as I think Teresa does) and been disappointed to get no discernible reaction. One that stands out was at a hair salon I'd never been to before. I was wearing a dress and heels (way overdressed for the salon) and walked in to this small salon and asked for a shampoo and set. There were only 2 stylists. One was cutting a man's hair, the other one took me on back. We had the usual small talk, including with the other stylist and her male client. I sat under the dryer for about half an hour and got combed out. Zero reaction from any of them at any time. Left me wondering if "no reaction" was in fact a thought-out reaction. They were too polite to react negatively, but didn't want to react too positively so as not to encourage me to come back.

[GretchenM]

I've met a number of TS's and got to know a few. Almost all do not pass and they don't worry about it. Only one passed and I assure you she really passed. But it took $150,000 worth of surgery. We talked about it a few times and once she said, "I pass until I cough or sneeze. Then everybody knows the truth." As you imply, Teresa, there is always a tell lurking there somewhere.

When I think where you were a year or so ago and where you are now, it is amazing. You have grown by leaps and bounds. I think you are a fine example of just what can happen when acceptance of self is there and there is a motivation to be that person.

As for the asking opinions, I recommend leaving it alone. I don't think it is a wise thing to do, but perhaps in the UK attitudes are different about such things. The US and the UK are similar, but they are not clones. Over here though, I sense attitudes are a bit different than they are over there. If one follows the news over here it isn't hard to figure out that in some ways there is a bit of a counter current from some influential sectors. Not sure about how it is in your neck of the worldly woods, but I sense it is a bit more accepting over there.

[Teresa]

Gretchen,
That small but important point of coughing and sneezing was something I brought up faily recently . My year or so has been a huge revelation , so well summed up in self acceptance and and the belief I can be Teresa .

As for the point about tactfully questioning the SAs . The two SAs in the curtain department approached the subject today by telling me how wonderful it was that I was putting my home together , obviously the implication being it's not what most men are capable of . They went on to say I was just a lovely customer to deal with and wished more could be as polite and pleasant . The SA in the furniture department was more direct, as I had to borrow a fabric sample to choose my curtains , when I returned it she said , " Come on girl let us know when it's all done and we'll come for a cup of tea and wear something a little more flashy !" That SA was also so surprised that the lady that accompanied me was my sister in law .

[GretchenM]

Thanks Teresa. Not so sure such a conversation and interchange like you had with the SAs would happen so easily over on this side of the pond. In some communities I can imagine it happening, but I suspect in most the reactions would not be so friendly.

I have never been to Europe, but my sense is that in much of Europe (not all) people are more accepting of differences, but with limitations and boundaries, than is the case here. Hard not to be when everyone is exposed to so many different kinds of people from so many small countries with widely varying histories and sub-cultures. We have plenty of sub-cultures here, but usually they cover rather large geographic areas and interaction is often more around the fringes than deep into the sub-culture community. We have a large valley here in Colorado that has a Hispanic history that pre-dates the Pilgrims and that valley is larger than some European countries. Spanish is the primary language there.

So, I conclude that if you do make some inquiries of SAs I would love to hear about their reactions. As to whether it is rude or not, I will leave that to your judgement. Over here, in my area anyway, I don't think it would be viewed as being polite. But here is not there.

[Teresa]

Gretchen,
I feel you've made the point well , there are differences possibly down to the isolation factor .
As you can read from my last reply the SAs appear to meeting me on this issue possibly because of the TG situation having more publicity . Maybe it's also down to my personality , openly chatting and having a laugh with them does open the door far more , I've possibly been suppressed far too long .

[Beverley Sims]

Teresa,
You have come up with some good ideas, this one I consider is fairly low on the scale. :-)

Have a little think about it.

I don't like telephone pollsters at election time.

It wastes mine. :-)

[t-girlxsophie]

As a shop worker last thing I want is to answer a time consuming questionnaire,just get on with your shop and help towards paying my wages :)

As for passing I don't ,I'm under no illusions about that.But I believe most SA's these days are so well versed in diversity training they feel no difference between serving me or any other shopper

[Starling]

Like so many here, I can pass pretty well in photos, but real life is something else. Nonetheless, I find being myself to be empowering, and when I am in public I think my confidence and good cheer win me "normal" treatment. That's now, when I know who I really am and have a number of friends who have spent time with me.

But when I first began shopping regularly for the clothes I really like, about ten years ago, I would order them online from Penney's, and pick them up, in drab, at the store. That way I avoided passing worries and shipping costs, and kept my non-supportive wife from seeing my purchases. As it happened, the staff at my local Penney's tended to be elderly European ladies dressed all in black, who were all extremely pleasant. They were so nice, in fact, that I even brought them little gifts, like chocolates, and they called me by my first name. In retrospect, I'm sure I would have had no problem being myself with them.

These nice old ladies gradually left, however, and one day there was an obvious emergency draftee from the management side at the counter. She was quite good-looking, in her early thirties, and wore a very stylish and colorful dress. She also felt a need to loudly announce to the others in line that I was picking up a pair of women's shoes and a dress. I smiled, because what am I supposed to say to that? And as she handed me my bags, she said, "Here's your goodies," with a sneer. No one in line blinked an eye; I'm sure they were as embarrassed by her rude behavior as she hoped I would be.

Penney's lost a loyal customer that day. I suppose I could have gotten her in trouble--especially since the company was quietly pro-LGBTQ--but I had no desire to punish her. God, I wish I had her lovely body, but I felt sorry for her emotional need to belittle me; and maybe my self-possession caused her to rethink. Dream on?

:) Lallie

[Patience]

The two SAs in the curtain department approached the subject today by telling me how wonderful it was that I was putting my home together , obviously the implication being it's not what most men are capable of.Well, that’s a sexist argument for a start, not to mention a gross generalization.

I’m glad you abandoned the polling idea. Even if you went through with it, the results would only be representative of the polled individuals because of the small number of people involved, assuming the answers were truthful in the first place.

Glad your home is coming together.

[Teresa]

Patience,
I gave up with my wife years ago when we'd argue over colour schemes and furnishings around the home , her comment was always , " What do men know about such things !"

It's great now I can do my own thing , yes I'm enjoying putting my new home together , naturally it will have a mix of male and female choices .

[t-girlxsophie]

At least the SA's in the Curtain dept didn't tell you to pull yourself together:facepalm: