What is a Transsexual???

[Paula DAngelo]

In the "Male to Female Crossdressing" sub forum a member made a statement about what it takes to be considered a transsexual. This statement while phrased as an opinion went against the forum definition, could be taken as insulting, and by its very nature would erase a multitude of people from being considered transsexual. was being made by some one whose very statement would mean that what it takes to be transsexual was being defined by a non-transsexual. When called out on their statement they defended it by saying something along the lines of I'm out all the time and talk and interact with Transsexual people all the time and this is a common feeling in the area in which they live.

Maybe I'm wrong in what I think the transsexual community believes and this member is correct, so I'm asking for any members that consider themselves transsexual, what does it take to be considered transsexual (I'm not asking for a text book type definition, I'm asking for your opinion).

Are Pre-op people transsexual?
Are Non-op people transsexual?
Is Post-op required to be transsexual?

What do you feel is required to be considered transsexual?

[Megan G]

This is just my unpopular opinion and is based on only my (and my CIS friends) opinions.



Are Pre-op people transsexual?


If they are living Full time as women and legally changed their name and sex (where possible) on government id’s....yes they are TS



Are Non-op people transsexual?


Same as above but to repeat....If they are living Full time as women and legally changed their name and sex (where possible) on government Id’s.... yes they are TS




Is Post-op required to be transsexual?


No


So that may bring you to ask what do i call a post op?

Wait for it....

A man or a woman, depending on their sex....

[Lana Mae]

A lot has to do with mind set! Dressed 24/7 but for whatever reasons can not afford or get on Ht or have the surgeries! Can not change ID's for whatever reason! Frustrating as Hell! But...if the mind set is there then are they or not? I believe if all attempts have failed and they have really tried and they believe, then they are! Just my opinion for what it is worth! Hugs Lana Mae

[AllieSF]

Well, let's see what I can clarify with my own opinion, this site's definition for a transsexual (TS) based on relatively current medical thinking and the viewpoint of so many transsexuals who have gone before us in the outside world and on this site, which at one time had a very active, opinionated and vociferous TS membership.

If a serious person declares themself a TS, that person is a TS, until proven otherwise, i.e. mistaken or a fraud. They do not need a medical opinion, though that does help the undecided sometimes, to have advanced beyond that opinion, no surgeries, no hormones and no requirement for living full time, and not a so called full time with or without weekends off!

A pre-op TS would be one that has not yet had any surgeries, whether due to medical, logistics or some other reason. This is probably used when one states that they want some surgeries but have not yet had any. This term is not really used that much by most of us. They are still TS.

A non-op TS is similar a pre-op one who may have decided to live their life with no surgeries. Now, actually this term does not get much use and I may be a little off in my description. However, the key here is that this person is still TS.

A post-op TS is one who has had one or more gender confirming surgeries, which could include an orchiectomy, breast augmentation, some type of bottom surgery, facial feminization surgery, or something else. Facial hair removal is not surgery. A person does not need to do more than one to be post-op. The term is used commonly to refer to post-op bottom surgery, but in my opinion and since the term in itself is not specific, it could apply to any of these procedures.

Also, having one or more gender confirming surgeries does not make anyone more TS than someone who has not had them. This is no contest. We are who we are.

Teresa, according to you, you are basing your declarations based on your conversations and understanding of what others meant in your social group, formal or informal, one on ones. I am basing my definitions on all my conversations with my extensive trans network of friends, this site, my readings and the medical definitions used by most.

People can define themselves anyway they want, but to be accurate, to be consistent, to be in tune with current medical and community thinking, please follow the site's definitions of TS. On this there should be no debate. Now, if you want to go out and debate how the site defines CD and NB, when one is a crossdresser and when not, fine, have at it.

I hope this helps the OP and others.

[Mirya]

Gender has to do with what's in your brain - your identity. Sex has to do with your biology and sexual organs. (we use sex to refer to sexual intercourse, for example)

A transgender person is someone whose identity crosses to the other side for gender.
A transsexual is someone who crosses to the other side with regard to their sexual organs.

That's kind of the way the words break down, literally.

In my view, a pre-op person who is planning on SRS is transsexual. A post-op person is also transsexual. A pre-op person who is not planning on SRS is not a transsexual. A non-op person is not a transsexual. Those are my opinions based on the literal meanings of the word.

I still consider non-op, full-time, trans women as women. I definitely have no problems addressing part-time CD's with female names and female pronouns. And when I go to TG support groups, I even address a fully male-presenting CD by their feminine name and female pronouns, if that is what they ask for. I'm ok with that.

But if we want to conflate transgender and transsexual and make them basically mean the same thing, I don't see the point of even having two different words. Why not just get rid of the word transsexual altogether? (actually it's happening already with the younger generation)

[AllieSF]

Myra,

This site defines and uses the word Transgender as an umbrella term. All of us fit somewhere under it. So, transgender is NOT transsexual per the site. Though trans or transgender is used by us and the general public as a shorthand description, SOMETIMES, to define a transsexual. That is because even though we more or less understand the site's meaning, and we discuss the terms and what they mean to us, the general public can only rely on the limited information that they get from the media, meaning they do not usually get into deep conversation about the basics, including definitions, of all this.

I have no problem if you want to define a goose as a duck, but you would be incorrect if you did that. The same goes for your incorrect definition that a pre-op person who is not planning on SRS is not a transsexual. Surgeries do not make the definition of a transsexual person. It is defined as that persons true belief and who they are.

For a better understanding of where you might be coming from. How do you self identify and please include a detailed description of that identity please. Thanks ahead of time.

There were more than one TS person here in the past that stated that one had to suffer and to have had GRS bottom surgery to be in the TS club. That debate never lasted long as other members clearly and easily debunked that myth.

Again believe what you want, but understand that your definitions may be wrong.

[Mirya]

Different people have different definitions of what 'transsexual' means. Different websites have different definitions of what transsexual means. My opinion differs from yours, and that's okay. What IS wrong is to berate me for being wrong, when I simply have a difference of opinion.

[AllieSF]

Sorry Myra. It was not my intent to berate you.

[Aunt Kelly]

In the "Male to Female Crossdressing" sub forum a member made a statement about what it takes to be considered a transsexual. This statement while phrased as an opinion went against the forum definition, could be taken as insulting, and by its very nature would erase a multitude of people from being considered transsexual...

...What do you feel is required to be considered transsexual?

Paula,
Opinions absolutely do not serve us when answering the question "What is a transsexual?", so why ask for them? This is not about "feelings". The goal should be to arm the person asking the question with an authoritative response, so that he or she may then participate in informed discourse using an agreed upon lexicon so that there is no confusion or ambiguity.

The definition of the term "transsexual" is unambiguous. Please see:


https://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/F01-F99/F60-F69/F64-/F64.0
https://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?233034-TS-Forum-definitions
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual V (DSM V), if you have access to a copy
And for what it's worth... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexual


While they all word it slightly differently, the "Clinical Information" section of the 2019 ICD-10-CM Diagnosis Code F64.0 is the most straightforward:
"Severe gender dysphoria, coupled with a persistent desire for the physical characteristics and social roles that connote the opposite biological sex.

To wit, the definition is not a matter of opinion. It is the presence of gender dysphoria that defines the condition. There is no mention of any surgical procedure, or lack thereof, other than to note them as possible treatments for gender dysphoria.

I am TS because I have severe gender dysphoria. I resent the ill-informed suggestion that I am not, because of what treatment I have, or have not, had. I have friends whom I'm sure would bristle at the suggestion that their non-op status made them something less-than. That kind of comment is extremely insensitive. Period. Defending such an insult as "just my opinion" makes it no less so.

Myra,
If you try to suggest that a different definition is defensible because it's "my opinion", prepare to be berated. No, not for having an opinion, but for suggesting that a falsehood is fact because you "have a right to your opinion."

To Theresa,
I accept your apology.

AllieSF has put it most succinctly...

People can define themselves anyway they want, but to be accurate, to be consistent, to be in tune with current medical and community thinking, please follow the site's definitions of TS. On this there should be no debate. (emphasis mine)

[Aunt Kelly]

I did not say that, nor do I believe that there is nothing left to discuss, but I still insist that your "opinion" that the term means something other than that meaning upon which reasonable people agree, is counterproductive nonsense; insensitive and hurtful counterproductive nonsense.

[Paula DAngelo]

To those that have replied, and all those that may still reply, please read and try to understand my original post.

I am not asking for the definition of what a transsexual is, I know what the "text book" definition is. I am asking for people in this community to give their opinion of what they consider it takes to be considered a transsexual. No response is wrong, as I have specifically asked for and wish to receive opinions. In other words stop the bickering about what someone says.

The reason I even made the original post is I wanted to see how the members of the transsexual community, of which I am a member, view the community in large. In other words how we view/define ourselves, regardless of how the world in general view/define us.

Also please note that I have asked that only members who consider themselves part of this community respond. I have already requested several responses to be removed because of this.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I could write a book..
The Story of My Opinion.

One day i said my opinion...the next day somebody told me they disagreed with my opinion... I told them that they were jerks and I didnt ask for their opinion or their disagreement...I told them again my opinion and added personal comments and used my mind reading skills to explain to them why they were wrong and why they dared disagree with me... the next day they complained that i didnt read their post and repeated their opinion about my opinion I quickly responded that they didnt read my post. I called them bad names and then I restated my opinion in different words.. Soon other people stated their opinions about my opinion and each others opinions. Some people took the time to pull out every sentence and respond with pithy quotes like "oh really" and "ummmm.... no". In the end the moderator read us all the rules of the forum and a little teeny lock symbol was placed next to my opinion. Months later, I read somebody elses opinion, and I told them their opinion was wrong.........................................

[Mirya]

The definition of the term "transsexual" is unambiguous. Please see:

I disagree. The definition is actually very ambiguous, and probably intentionally so. Much of it is open to interpretation (i.e. open to opinions!)



While they all word it slightly differently, the "Clinical Information" section of the 2019 ICD-10-CM Diagnosis Code F64.0 is the most straightforward:
"Severe gender dysphoria, coupled with a persistent desire for the physical characteristics and social roles that connote the opposite biological sex.


I don't think that definition is straightforward at all. What exactly are female "physical characteristics'? How many "physical characteristics" are needed to qualify? Is it enough to have breasts? Long hair? Or both? Or more? It's so ambiguous! And what exactly are "social roles"? Again, the wording is vague, and open to interpretation.

[Sara Olivia]

As I understand it, what makes a person transsexual is the innate knowledge that your physical body does not align with who you are on the inside. Whether you transition or live your entire life in your biological body, you are transsexual. A crossdresser on the other hand is someone who dresses in clothing of the opposite gender because they derive sexual pleasure from it. They do not innately feel like they are in the wrong body. They are quite comfortable in their biological bodies and would not want to live fulltime as the opposite gender.

[Aunt Kelly]

I don't think that definition is straightforward at all. What exactly are female "physical characteristics'? How many "physical characteristics" are needed to qualify? Is it enough to have breasts? Long hair? Or both? Or more? It's so ambiguous! And what exactly are "social roles"? Again, the wording is vague, and open to interpretation.

Wow... That is perhaps the most tortured rationale I have ever read on this forum. You have gone to extraordinary lengths in your attempt to defend an untenable position.

Do you seriously expect anyone to believe that the set of physical characteristics which are uniquely female, you know, the ones that are discussed constantly in this part of the forum, is an ambiguous list? How dare you even suggest that those things that so many of us will move heaven and earth to acquire (or rid ourselves of), through years of painful, dangerous and expensive medical treatment, are so insignificant that they can be equated with ...long hair. Oh... my... gawd. Really? Such a position is stunning in it's deliberate ignorance of plainly available evidence, in the literature and right here in this section and the other TS sections.

Frankly, I remain baffled by this need to ambiguate (yes, that's really a word) things which are patently unambiguous. Why is it that some insist that it is OK to state that black is white, or that water is dry, as long as it is qualified as "my opinion"?

[Mirya]

I’m not really interested in having a discussion with someone who is going to keep resorting to personal attacks and hyperbole. I’ve stated my interpretation of the definition as a TS woman who has had HRT, FFS, SRS, and BA. Your definition is just as valid as mine too, if that’s how you see things based on your experience.

[Aprilrain]

this site, which at one time had a very active, opinionated and vociferous TS membership.

I feel like Archie Bunker, "Those were the days"

So wait? There's a trans community? Why am I just now hearing about this!!!!

Well since you asked...............

MY OPINION IS irrelevant as is yours, (ambiguous) as is clearly spelled out in the original post.

Someone, not TS, pontificates about what they think I'm am and whether or not I qualify to be me.
The real bitch of it is my eyes are turning yellow waiting for the jury to decide which bathroom I get to use!:wall:

[Kaitlyn Michele]

One thing that makes being TS hard is that one component of the gender dysphoria is the idea that your innate sense of gender is not reflected back at you.

In the real world. There is a concept of “you just know”.
Your gender is reflected back or it isn’t.

And you know what it means to be you with no words necessary

And you especially know what it’s like to not be you or to have others not accept you.

And the follow on to that for people that question. Or wonder about what is a transsexual is that I don’t think I can use words very well to answer that question.

[AllieSF]

"Your definition is just as valid as mine too, if that’s how you see things based on your experience."

Her definition, as well as mine, as well as this site's, as well as the TS community with some minor exceptions, as well as the vast medical community are all the same. Yes, you have a right to your opinion, even though it is totally wrong with no more back up defense than "this is my opinion". Provide some medical, scholarly, majority information that your opinion is even close to being valid. You continue to refuse to do that. You also refuse to state where you are in the Transgender Spectrum as defined by this site. That could help better understand where you are coming from. You may like to debate on your terms, but when you open up a big can of worms in this section, please defend with data your invalid opinion as to what is a transsexual.

April,

"Those were the days!" Yes, we were there, me as a bystander, and unbeknownst to me a future member, and you as an active member. There is a trans community, which is an interesting place to be. Kind of like being a member of the human race with all its varieties and pretty colors. I love it.

[Devi SM]

I honestly think that a definition about transexual or trasge de by scientists, doctors, psiquiatrist or any other health professional that is not a trans is not enough accurate.
I was a year in therapy with a family therapist and I learn a lot as well she learned for me.
Now my therapist is a trasgender and his support and knowledge is overwhelming. He knows more to approach a therapy and treatment from his own personal experiences than the all knowledge he has as a PhD on sicology.
At the beginning I went to therapy looking for answers, I never receive them. She help me a lot to find my own answers and definitions, so I think first, if you're not in transition and under HRT your experiences definitions are very subjective, so what I do is read the most, talk, ask and then compare with my own experience to I arrive to my own conclusions.

[KatrinaK]

I was going to skip responding to this, but I decided to weigh in. I'm not joining the argument, but rather I'm going to tell you a short story.

When I first decided to transition, I posted it here in this exact subsection of cd.com. What was supposed to be one of the most affirming moments of my life, devolved immediately into a semantic argument about the definition of TG label words, led largely by certain person(s) not coincidentally on this thread (don't bother or asking or looking, it was deleted by the mods at my request and I will not single anyone out for the same reason I'm writing this post. They know who they are, or they do this sort of thing so often that they don't remember. Either way, it doesn't matter)

There was no support. There was no love. There was no congratulations. There was only a brutal picking apart of the words that I used to describe the most affirming moment of my life.

I was mortified. So much so that I actually decided to leave the forum and spend my time elsewhere where that sort of thing doesn't happen.

Today, I decided to come back to see how everyone was doing. This was one of the first threads I found.

So for everyone reading this, let me leave you with this. This "dialogue" is a complete waste of time. These arguments as to "who qualifies as what" do serious damage to people who are at their most emotionally fragile, and at their most vulnerable. I know it did to me, so much so that I took all my transition related conversations elsewhere.

Ciao Bellas,
Kat

[Eemz]

Thanks for posting Kat. I did notice you disappear but I didn't know why and I really wanted to hear how things are going. I only opened this thread today to see what you had to say, and will be closing it again now. These threads at best are boring and annoying and at worst are just a bunch of people trying to "win" at all costs. The ..anatomy.. measuring that goes on always strikes me as ironic in a trans site.

> There was no support. There was no love. There was no congratulations

There's lots and lots of it here for you :hugs: I'm really sorry it got swamped by nonsense.

[Aunt Kelly]

Thank you for weighing in, Katrina. It is exactly the kind of contention that you describe that seems to arise every time the "labels" debate appears. What label we choose to assign, or reject, for ourselves should not be a matter of contention. The contention only arises when someone seeks to ignore convention and redefine the labels. Without that convention, a common, agreed-upon lexicon, misunderstanding is inevitable.

I am TS, according to that conventional definition. I chose that label because it fits. More importantly, it allows me to describe my gender identity in a single word. It is neither more nor less accurate because of the steps I have been able to take to express that identity because this or that form of expression is not part of the conventional definition. Ergo, it is insensitive, to say the least, for someone to insist that the label does not fit because, in their "opinion", other requirements apply.
Again, thank you for providing perspective based on your unfortunate experience.

[jentay1367]

" I know it did to me, so much so that I took all my transition related conversations elsewhere. "

HEAR, HEAR ^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^

[LeaP]

“Transsexual” - A person with cross-sexed identity who takes concrete, permanent, physical steps to bring their body in line. Hormones, FFS, SRS, Top Surgery, and perhaps other procedures all qualify. Someone who would but can’t (excuses need not apply) are often referred to as TS because the discussion is identity-focused, here at least, but technically are not.

I think there is a more nuanced conversation about social transition only, sans physical steps, but in my opinion doesn’t obviate cross-sexed identity, as some cross dressers socially transition and still identity as male.

Kaitlyn - very funny!

[Aunt Kelly]

Is that "definition" your opinion, Lea, or do you have reference that should be cited?

[LeaP]

Opinion. It speaks to the physical cross-over, the “trans” in “transsexual.”

The term is showing its age. It originates in a time when sex and gender were not clearly distinguished. Most definitions (not that there are any that are absolute or final) speak primarily to identity, but nonetheless often stress wanting, or wanting to change to the sexual characteristics of the opposite sex.

So why my version? First, it’s not unique - I have read other similar. But the real reason is that times have changed and these days fantasy often rules. “If I only could ...” “I’d transition in a heartbeat if ...” Blah, blah, blah.

[Devi SM]

I agree with Kat.
I think some people ignores, forget the struggles most of us have in our lives swimming against the moral established parameters or rules and looking for answers come here looking support, answers, acceptance but sometimes just receive just rejection like it were a contest a iut who knows more or who can really be a trans.
I personally believe that for some people the dysphoria is bigger that push them to look for an exit or solution. I know that some trans never experienced dysphoria (which is weird for me) and for them everything has been easy and finally as I said, there's not enough research to give es a diagnostic on the reasons but for me gender dysphoria is a common symptom on all of us.
If a health professional has ever felt, can't understand it to develop a definition and just trans peoe could do it but we all are so subjective to understand the others reasons.
My finale call is to believe what others say and just love them. Time will show who is who.
My humble opinion.

[KellyJameson]

Opinion.....

We use words to discover truth but the tool of words risks treating falsehoods as truths.

The truth of ones personal identity is experienced as a knowing. This knowing is experienced and is the result of a series of epiphanies through the insights acquired by the effort exerted in the attempt to understand the disease one suffers from.

The knowing is the end result of that which precedes it. An epiphany is physically felt as a result of the mind (Conscious) and brain (Subconscious) coming together as one. It creates a type of seamlessness without contradiction in the mind.

It eliminates the dissonance of treating a false identity as real and a real identity as false.

If this experience is missing than there is no movement and without movement there is the pain of gender dysphoria without recognition of that which is causing the suffering created by the conflict of the very thing that is creating the gender dysphoria.

The movement is from illness to health.

A transsexual is not someone who suffers from gender dysphoria but someone who knows that they suffer from gender dysphoria. I was transsexual because I suffered from gender dysphoria and " KNOW/KNEW IT". The "Knowing" carries all the implications of knowing. (fully conscious of the truth of identity and the consequences of not living it)

The disease of gender dysphoria is not the patient. The patient is the person in relation to the disease. They are not defined by the disease but they do have a relationship with it. In the absence of this relationship a person is not transsexual because even though they suffer from the disease of gender dysphoria they do not know what the disease is that they suffer from. The lack of understanding is also the lack of conscious awareness of ones identity which remains in the subconscious exerting its will and punishing the self for not acknowledging it. (Split personality) (Fractured identity)

They stop being a transsexual once the disease is cured.

A transsexual is not a person but a state of being.

It is in my opinion very dangerous to treat the disease as the person. Many cancer survivors understand this.

There is the state of being Transsexual but there is no such thing as a person who is a Transsexual. That would be the same as saying Suzy is Cancer because she suffers from Cancer.

Treating human beings as if they are the disease inflicts unnecessary suffering on those who suffer from the disease.

It is in my opinion "Immoral"

Those who do not understand this do not/ did not suffer from the disease of gender dysphoria and knew/know it.

They do not know the state of being Transsexual because they do not/did not experience it.

[LeaP]

I both agree and disagree with you, Kelly J. I acknowledge the gist of your statements on knowing, that it is the critical pivot for real understanding. On the other hand, you’re trying to have it both ways with your use of “transsexual” in that your comment on it being a state of being seems to undermine your denial of it as an identity.

In any event, I agree that it is NOT, or should not be an identity. But transsexuality is not something that disappears when dysphoria is done away, either (and not all suffer from dysphoria anyway). If you accept my view that a transsexual is someone who has actually done something to align the physical with gender self-perception then the term is simply a narrow description of one aspect of their physicality. A MTF transsexual still has a male body, conventionally (chromosomally) construed anyway.

Finally, the medical perspective is one of many, all of which are descriptive and none of which are identities unless the individual decides to make them so.

The use of the definite article is a convenience for many and doesn’t in itself make the term an identity. I say “I am A transsexual” with the full understanding that I’m using a convention to express a lot of overloaded concepts, typically to people who dimly understand the barest elements of any of it. If further conversation turns on identity, I can clarify. If it turns to physicality, I can specify the details. Or I can present another perspective entirely: religious, philosophical, metaphysical, legal, sociological, etc. None of them limit me but any or all can help others understand me. I adjust the terms and details to the audience.

I use “female” as my gender identity with the clarification of “cross-sexed” when it seems appropriate. I never describe myself as a woman as I feel THAT is an overloaded term with its own issues. I may describe myself physically as male when the (typically medical) circumstances call for it. I have NEVER referred to myself as a man, however, oddly enough even before the dysphoria hit the fan and the knowing to which you refer began.

I also use “cross-sexed” these days to describe the basic condition. From what I understand of the science, such as it is, those of us (MTF) blessed with cross-sexed identity are neurologically only partially female, so even “female” is a perspective in some ways, being as much of an alignment as anything else. What’s left - “I am”? Or is that presumptuous?

[Sara Olivia]

I so agree with Kelly's opinion and especially the statement that "A transsexual is not a person but a state of being". I also firmly agree with something that Mirya recently posted on a different thread. She states that "You can't become a woman. You can't change your gender. Either you already are a woman, or you're not! Your gender identity was set at birth and firmly established as a toddler. Now, what you can do, is you can change your life to live as a woman, or to live as a man. But you cannot change who you are. You cannot change your identity." In other words after birth at some point our consciousness innately tells us that we identify in a certain manner - personally for me that was as a woman. My physical reality, however, was that I was born in the body of a male. My state of being at that time was transsexual because my body and innate gender identity were at odds and I was definitely feeling the full force of a condition, or a disease if you prefer, we formally call gender dysphoria. Now that I have socially transitioned and am in the process of medically transitioning to female, my physical being and my innate gender identity are no longer at odds. Its true that I will never achieve being able to change my body in every way to being female but I am able to change enough that I no longer feel the effects of gender dysphoria and I now live my life in social society as the gender that I innately identify as. Hence I prefer (and its a personal decision for everyone) to no longer identify as transgender or transsexual because my body is now aligned with the gender that I identify with. Simply put I now identify as a woman.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Saying your transsexuality disappears seems like a political statement.

I get that the feeling of transsexuality disappears... and maybe all could agree that therefore transsexuality disappears if your context is that we all self identify and no one has any right at all to disagree with that..

my feeling of gender dysphoria disappeared... I completely transitioned, I pass and I live my life... but honestly I still feel like a transsexual.... perhaps that's my own shame or feelings of confusion...I don't really worry about it too much except to be willing to share with people

what does that mean?? I really don't care that much.

[Micki_Finn]

This is just my unpopular opinion and is based on only my (and my CIS friends) opinions.



If they are living Full time as women and legally changed their name and sex (where possible) on government id’s....yes they are TS



Same as above but to repeat....If they are living Full time as women and legally changed their name and sex (where possible) on government Id’s.... yes they are TS




No


So that may bring you to ask what do i call a post op?

Wait for it....

A man or a woman, depending on their sex....

This would seem to imply that transgender is a choice, as one can’t be transgender without taking positive action. I would say that people are born trans. So for example, a child facing puberty realizes their birth gender doesn’t really match. What you are saying is that this child isn’t trans until after they’ve started living as a girl and changed their name? Then what were they before? Did we MAKE them trans by allowing them to live as the opposite gender?

[Aunt Kelly]

If they are living Full time as women and legally changed their name and sex (where possible) on government id’s....yes they are TS


And what would call those of us who have not yet met the requirements of your arbitrary definition? Why are you so disinclined to use the conventional definition? You know, the one that virtually everyone else agrees on and relies to prevent misunderstanding.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

and KellyJ says thats not a ts that's a woman.

and Lea says its complicated

and I say, whatever...

Opinions and labels......gotta love em

[LeaP]

Saying your transsexuality disappears seems like a political statement.


It does - and that’s an interesting way of putting it.




I really don't care that much.

From any practical standpoint, neither do I. I do like language to be descriptive, though, and the semantics problem just drives me batty.

Kat, I’m sorry that you had a hard time, but as long as all this is handled in our culture as a medical, psychological, insurance, legal, and - heaven help us - political issue, the terms and their meaning matter a great deal. Indeed, they are sometimes life and death, especially for the most fragile you mention. The alternative is what has always happened in the past, which is that someone else defines us, and it’s usually hostile.

[KellyJameson]

Hi Lea

Transsexual may be treated as an identity but it is not a gender identity.

There are identities that are done to us (assigned) and identities we do to ourselves (adopted)

The state of being transsexual is a transient state for those who want to transition to the degree they need and are able to transition.

For me it was a bridge to cross from GD to no GD. It was a movement from illness too health.

Anyone who spends time associating with Trans people realizes there are a multitude of motives for adopting the label Trans and changing appearance that has nothing to do with gender identity. A cross dresser can identify as trans. A gender fluid person can identify as trans.

A trans identity has become that which is not binary (Non-binary). I'm first and foremost committed to the binary and from that place I am perfectly willing to experiment with being gender fluid.

For me it was purely about mental health. I did not nor do I need a audience to experience my gender. I do not need confirmation and would never give the power of possessing my identity to another. That would be a repeat of the conditions I experienced previously when my gender was defined by others.

For me to hold onto the label Transsexual in relation to the self is to stay "Untransitioned" To not have crossed the bridge that corrects misalignment.

When I stand naked in front of a mirror and observe my reflection I experience confirmation of my innate gender identity that I have carried all my life. This confirmation is only a confirmation of a truth I already knew. I had the knowing before transitioning. I would not have transitioned without that knowing. Confirmation is wonderful but knowing is critical.

It is not possible to use "confirmation" to acquire "Knowing". This would always leave the power "To Be" ones gender in the hands of another. The audience than decides the individuals gender identity.

It is not a problem for people who are not misaligned to have the audience assign their gender because they are "as individuals" in agreement with the audience as to the reality of their being.

I believe in the binary of sex as male and female and from this solid foundation a person can than be gender fluid (Non binary).

Being gender fluid is a privilege afforded to those who do not have to be OR it is assigned by the self (usually as a compromise and acceptance of circumstances) so is a adopted identity.

For a person born misaligned, being non binary is what they are born into. They are assigned this by birth so lose the privilege of being able to be non binary by choice. (adopted)

[LeaP]

Kelly, we are 90% radically agreed. Close enough.

[jentay1367]

Lots of people being boxed in and defined by other's opinions. "If you label me you negate me" I think Kierkegaard was right on here. The more hyperbole used to explain our being, the less value we seem to have as individuals. I did not "transition" to be a "transsexual". Rather I did it to correct societies perception of who I am and how that dynamic is played out every single day. I am now accepted universally as the woman I always knew myself to be. "A rose by an other name".

[KatrinaK]

I think you should all read "Whipping Girl" by Julia Serrano

https://www.amazon.com/Whipping-Girl-Transsexual-Scapegoating-Femininity/dp/1580056229

XO,
Kat

[Sara Olivia]

Originally posted by Kaitlyn Michelle
Saying your transsexuality disappears seems like a political statement.

I respectfully disagree. How others identify me is up to them. That I self identify as a woman, and always have, is my right just as it is your right to identify as a transgender woman if that is how you feel. I don't care for labels, or more accurately - I don't like people being labelled. I am not a political person, I live my own life and keep my opinions to myself with the exception that I sometimes share them on this forum when a topic is of interest to me and I have an opinion to share. So when I share with this forum that I personally do not self identify as a transgender woman but as a woman, then I am sharing an opinion and not making a political statement.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I hear you...that makes sense

[LeaP]

I read Whipping Girl 10 years ago and have re-read a couple of times since, in addition to reading Julia’s blog here and there. Is there something you’d like to cite?

[Megan G]

This would seem to imply that transgender is a choice, as one can’t be transgender without taking positive action. I would say that people are born trans. So for example, a child facing puberty realizes their birth gender doesn’t really match. What you are saying is that this child isn’t trans until after they’ve started living as a girl and changed their name? Then what were they before? Did we MAKE them trans by allowing them to live as the opposite gender?

Reading is imperative here... no where did i say TRANSGENDER, i am talking about transsexuals and people who transition from one sex to another. I’ve never said it was a choice, all i said is in my view a transsexual is a person who has made the leap legally from living as one gender to another and is preop...


And what would call those of us who have not yet met the requirements of your arbitrary definition? Why are you so disinclined to use the conventional definition? You know, the one that virtually everyone else agrees on and relies to prevent misunderstanding.

How am i creating misunderstanding? I work in the medical field and if i have a patient come to me that is presenting as a man, has male sexual organs, goes by male pronouns and has a male name? How is that confusing to not call him a transsexual as he Is not living as a woman.... he has not crossed the gender divide.

Now same person shows up but presenting as a woman, has male sexual organs, goes by female pronouns and has a female name and ID than yes i will call her a transsexual as she has crossed from living one gender to another gender but has not changed her sex

Now same person shows up presenting as a woman, has had GRS and has female looking sexual organs (remember there are still male parts in you such as prostate gland), has female name and is living as a woman... i call her a woman.

You can scream to the heavens all you want that labels are for whatever but in my world they are important as if someone else reads my nursing notes down the road they need to understand with zero confusion.

[Aunt Kelly]

You have not answered my question, Megan. We aren't talking about genetics, or surgical procedures, but I should point out that your choice of terms is medically unsound. Proper care demands a more nuanced approach the the checking of a single box.

Again, why do you not use the the definition that virtually all academics and professionals use to describe those who suffer from profound gender dysphoria? Put more plainly still, why do you insist that one is not transsexual until they have met your arbitrary definition of the term?

[LeaP]

TRUE genius, but true woman ! dost deny
The woman's nature with a manly scorn
And break away the gauds and armlets worn
By weaker women in captivity?
Ah, vain denial ! that revolted cry
Is sobbed in by a woman's voice forlorn, _
Thy woman's hair, my sister, all unshorn
Floats back dishevelled strength in agony
Disproving thy man's name: and while before
The world thou burnest in a poet-fire,
We see thy woman-heart beat evermore
Through the large flame. Beat purer, heart, and higher,
Till God unsex thee on the heavenly shore
Where unincarnate spirits purely aspire !

Well there ya go ... all I can add is I know one when I hear one.

[MarinaTwelve200]

Well, if there are conflicting meanings floating about, Take the "Scientific Paper" approach----Always DEFINE what YOU mean by "Transsexual" at the beginning of the conversation or posting.----That way the participants are ALL "on the same page", so to speak and can have a productive discussion. Nothing but misunderstandings and confusion ensue when different persons use a different definition of terms---and fail to tell the others involved. I have seen the term "Transsexual" used for BOTH pre and post op persons with Gender dysphoria ----

[LeaP]

Eh, most scientific and research papers use the term “transsexual” without defining it. In my reading experience, though, the context is usually post-ops and/or individuals on cross-sex hormones.

Here’s some interesting cites from the UK’s Equality and Human Rights Commission (cites are from https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination):


In 2016 a Women and Equalities Committee report ... [recommended] ... that the use of the terms ‘gender reassignment’ and ‘transsexual’ in the Equality Act 2010 are outdated and misleading ...

I made the point about the dated nature of “transsexual” in an earlier response. I’ll add here to state directly that this is part of the problem. The UK commission regards “trans” as the better term, but personally, I don’t find it much better. (Though I use it myself.)

In the comments on Gender Reassignment Discrimination, the following clarifications are made (emphases mine):


The Equality Act 2010 says that you must not be discriminated against because you are transsexual, when your gender identity is different from the gender assigned to you when you were born. [note - it’s important to understand that the context here is BINARY gender. The site makes this clarification elsewhere.]

FURTHER, that:


All transsexual people share the common characteristic of gender reassignment.

... But not as a fait accompli:


To be protected from gender reassignment discrimination, you do not need to have undergone any specific treatment or surgery to change from your birth sex to your preferred gender.

! So what does this all mean? One final clarification nails it:


The Equality Act says that you must not be discriminated against because:

of your gender reassignment as a transsexual. You may prefer the description transgender person or trans male or female. A wide range of people are included in the terms ‘trans’ or ‘transgender’ but you are not protected as transgender unless you propose to change your gender or have done so.

All very interesting. Clarifying, too. That is, as long as you are a UK citizen and need to deal with a legally covered discrimination issue and, by the way, have a Gender Recognition Certificate (certified transsexuals!). You’re SOL anywhere else or in other circumstances.

If I get around to it, I’ll parse through the WPATH’s interesting distinctions between transsexuals vs transgender and gender non-conforming people. It’s a tortured read. Here’s a hint, though: All three terms are used together (i.e., as a sort of umbrella class) in the current care standard over 100 times. Transsexual is used alone in only a handful of cases.

There’s an interesting thread of terminology history through the revisions of the DSM, too, particularly if you read through the accompanying notes and not just the diagnoses criteria.

[Amelie]

From reading the responses one can see why the general public has difficulty understanding gender issues.

I'm kinda glad I live alone and away from other trans people. Don't have to worry what to call myself.

But it is interesting reading the responses.

As for the question. Who is a transsexual. In my day the transsexual was the ones walking the streets in the meat packing district and the born girls were walking the streets a few blocks north.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

sounds like you've been to Lee's Mardi Gras....

[Aunt Kelly]

Well, if there are conflicting meanings floating about, Take the "Scientific Paper" approach----Always DEFINE what YOU mean by "Transsexual" at the beginning of the conversation or posting.----

With respect, that is not "scientific". Scientific method holds that to be valid, results must be repeatable. Consensus, formed by independent validation of an hypothesis results in a unified lexicon for describing the results. Working the same hypothesis, using the same methodology, and assigning different terms to the findings would be nonsense. Once that consensus has taken shape, it is only changed through the same method that created it, but using a new approach; a more refined hypothesis, better instrumentation, larger sample, etc.

Lea, pulling together out-of-context quotes from one government's regulatory language hardly gets us any closer to consensus. As Amelie points out, the general public (lawmakers, in this case) has a poor grasp on things. On the other hand, citing the WPATH document is useful. In what might be argued as the most applicable chapter for our purposes (the one on epidemiological considerations), we see the term "transsexual" used for the first time without being lumped in with "...transgender and gender non-conforming individuals". To wit...
"For various reasons, researchers who have studied incidence and prevalence have tended to focus
on the most easily counted subgroup of gender-nonconforming individuals: transsexual individuals
who experience gender dysphoria and who present for gender-transition-related care at specialist
gender clinics (Zucker & Lawrence, 2009)"

Yet again, we see that those with recognized expertise in the areas of diagnosing and treating the condition agree on the term and it's definition. Any professional in the field could expect ridicule for insisting, with neither supporting rationale nor proof, that "transsexual" means something else should expect ridicule, at least.

[Nikki.]

Language evolves. Especially in an area as lightly studied as transgenderism. WPATH’s guidelines have evolved, as has the APA via the DSM. Up until a very few years ago some of those influencing terms, criteria and guidelines were transphobic gatekeepers themselves ala Blanchard.

In some cases the supposed experts and clinicians are playing catch-up to how trans people identify themselves. For some many years, a certain narrative was required to obtain medical transition services, and vestiges of that remain. Add in societal stigma that varies depending on what kind of trans person you are, an unfavorable national political climate in the US, highly specific medical criteria in the UK for the government to recognize one’s gender and you have a highly favorable environment for people to misrepresent how they really identify.

Transsexual is a dated term. In some uses it alludes to the misplaced eliteism of those that self define as having harry benjamin syndrome. The hope for some universal, objective definition of the term “transsexual” is a bit quixotic. But hey, self ID however you want, you do you boo.

[LeaP]

Kelly, I hardly think the UK Equality Commission’s commentary is irrelevant! First off, the commission’s site distinguishes the regulatory language from more up-to-date as well as casual usage. Second, it’s one illustration of my points on context and risk (others defining us). The UK is a good beginning point because the national structure is relatively complete, tying together aspects of identity and legality including social treatment, documents and naming, NHS policy, etc. Very unlike the scattershot approaches in the US. I don’t give the example as any kind of affirmation of my views - there are several elements with which I disagree. In any event, the WPATH cite you used actually aligns with the UK Commission’s view. I don’t understand your objection.

I expressed my opinion earlier, not my view of a consensus. There IS no consensus on the term in the US. I could argue some aspects of continuity in the term through (again) the DSM history and commentary as well as the history of the gender clinics and, to a lesser extent, clinical practice. But that, too, was one of my points, that the meaning depends on context, even in “official” contexts. Or, if you like, that the same descriptors, symptoms, factors, and other such criteria can apply to different mutually-exclusive terms, which is much the same thing. A terrific example of this was the uproar over Gender Dysphoria vs Fetishistic Transvestism in the DSM 5. The Gender Dysphoria diagnosis, of course, IS the latest version of what WAS transsexualism in earlier editions. The new Fetishistic Transvestism diagnosis which uses many of the same criteria, thanks to the Paraphilias subcommittee chair (Ray Blanchard) now stigmatizes any crossdresser who happens to fit. Strictly speaking, neither of these are definitions. But even if they were, would it matter outside of a psych context - one, moreover, that uses the DSM? Nope.

You appear to be arguing that there are consensus definitions. If so, I wish you would clearly state what you think they are (or at least for “transsexual”). I actually think there is something like a prevalent cultural view, but not a consensus on terminology that is common among the medical, psychological, legal, scientific, sociological, and religious spheres. Nor do I think discussions like this will drive to a common, agreed set of definitions. Personally I’m fine with contextual meaning.

[Aunt Kelly]

You appear to be arguing that there are consensus definitions. If so, I wish you would clearly state what you think they are (or at least for “transsexual”). I actually think there is something like a prevalent cultural view, but not a consensus on terminology that is common among the medical, psychological, legal, scientific, sociological, and religious spheres. Nor do I think discussions like this will drive to a common, agreed set of definitions. Personally I’m fine with contextual meaning.

I am and there are. The DSM, WPATH, and ICD10 all use the same definition, not word for word, but none of them say anything about your arbitrary requirements. Yes, language evolves, but the lexicon used by the academic and professional community does not change as a result of someone's opinion. Again, your opinion is at odds with that consensus. Insisting that you are "entitled to your opinion" does not change that fact.

Would someone please explain to me this need to ignore the obvious and redefine terms according to their own needs? I thought that we were past this "not trans enough" bullsh**t.

[MarinaTwelve200]

[QUOTE=Aunt Kelly;4363037]With respect, that is not "scientific". Scientific method holds that to be valid, results must be repeatable. Consensus, formed by independent validation of an hypothesis results in a unified lexicon for describing the results. Working the same hypothesis, using the same methodology, and assigning different terms to the findings would be nonsense. Once that consensus has taken shape, it is only changed through the same method that created it, but using a new approach; a more refined hypothesis, better instrumentation, larger sample, etc.

"the Scientific Paper" Approach I mention is not meant to be "Scientific"---it is a STYLE----Were terms are defined as per the author, so the reader KNOWS what aspects the writer or speaker is talking about--in terms of the Author's interpretation.--For just the reasons you cite, New information, changes in terminology over time, Different interpretations, etc. Thus the Definition is "Locked" for the purposes of the given discussion. Those who do NOT define their terms, especially in such a "fluid" subject matter, often will not be understood and their points being lost to confusion. It is a poor technique to write such Papers without defining the terminology used, and also suggests a lack of expertise or laziness on the part of the writer

[LeaP]

Give the definition, please.

[Amelie]

sounds like you've been to Lee's Mardi Gras....

Yes I've been there quite a lot. I sort of got to know Lee Brewster. Two people I know worked there, Miss Shannon and Robbie. I didn't need to go there but I had great respect for Lee and all he done for civil rights. More to the point of knowing the area around Lee's, I would go there quite often at night to roam the streets and sometimes go to the Vault club, sort of across from Lee's. At night the area came alive with transsexual street walkers, some fairly rough/dangerous girls too.


This next part is not a response to you Kaitlyn.
I know I don't make a point by using big words and meaningful dialogue. But as I said, the transsexuals knew who they were by walking in an area for them and born girls kept away from the area. While there isn't a scientific response it does show that the transsexual girls knew who each other were by staying together. They knew they were transsexuals without the science manuals. I would take a good guess that transsexual girls from Brazil know what they are without scientific studies. I am not putting down studies and such, it is good reading, much I don't understand. I guess it's like art, I can't tell what a transsexual is but I know one when I see one, if that makes sense.

I have a good understanding what it is to be trans and have many years experience, what I don't have is an educated brain to write researched words with deep meanings.

[Nikki.]

I have a good understanding what it is to be trans and have many years experience, what I don't have is an educated brain to write researched words with deep meanings.

Your life and street experience are valid, and more useful than some of the social science rambling. When you’re bored, google the journal of cogent social sciences and the conceptual penis as a social construct.

[Aunt Kelly]

[QUOTE=Aunt Kelly;4363037]It is a poor technique to write such Papers without defining the terminology used, and also suggests a lack of expertise or laziness on the part of the writer

If we were talking about formal papers, your argument might have a shred of relevance. We're not. We're talking about some members here defending their "you're not trans enough" condescension by trying to redefine accepted terms.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Gender is the single most important organizing principle for any living creature.
Messing with that is messy

We are in the very early days of working all this out. It’s not helpful to us today to have difficulty coming to terms with agreed terms. Too much baggage too much pushback. Not enough research. Not enough long tail experience Just not enough for us.

The defined terms are very useful for many reasons. Communication medical political. They can help us “come out”. And explain to people what this is. Most helpful is framing it in terms of gender dysphoria which is a kind of existential suffering I would not wish on anybody. The definition is helpful in codifying it. People can hear us but they can’t internalize. It makes no sense to them. The defined terms have gravitas that can be internalized.

From there we can all say what is our opinion. And it’s pretty easy to understand that we are sharing our opinion which hopefully come from experience. And opinion is different than definitions. I think the OP what she was looking for was opinions.

W all experience gender dysphoria differently. I had no feeling about my parts. I felt like it was a fantasy. I didn’t “know” I was a woman. The definition of TS at the time was very unhelpful to me. It was confusing and it hurt I wished I was TS. It was when I experienced other people that had understood that helped me. Hearing their stories. Comparing to my experience. I learned so much. It was a like a key to a locked door. A locked door that could be thought of as having abig bold definition that kept me out.

So I guess I’m saying that even tho this is a messy conversation. And I kind of have a negative view of it that maybe it’s actually helpful. And that we can talk it out on the basis of experience which leads to having an opinion. And sharing that expressed the diversity of our GD. And at the same time recognize that the definition as expressed in the medical lit is pretty helpful.

[LeaP]

Kaitlyn, an excellent summation.