Control or Acceptance

[deebra]

If a man wants to wear a minimal amount of female clothing does a wife have the right to say no? Let's say he likes female panties and wants to wear girl jeans too. And for pretty much the same reasons she does. The panties are sexy, comfortable and pretty. The jeans are soft, close to the body and attractive and feel very feminely nice over the panties. This is not a man in a dress that will draw attention. I wear this all the time and blend, blend, blend, never ever outed. We all know women wear male clothes wherever they want. Does he have the right to wear this if he wants and stand up to her or does she have the right to tell him no and then go dress in his clothes and go shopping. IYO (in your opinion) what are the limits, how far can he go???

[Jodie_Lynn]

Isn't that really something for discussion between the interested parties?

I mean, a thousand people can give examples of their own experiences, but what is the point of this?
Is some crossdresser going to present the data to a reluctant spouse and say "SEE?!? All these faceless internet people agree with me!"

But lets take crossdressing out of the equation for a moment.
What if he wanted to perform an adult bedroom activity with her, and she didn't want to. Does he have the right to force to indulge in his desire? Is she not an equal partner with the ability to voice her own likes and dislikes?

Shouldn't a couple have the right to disagree on issues? Or does each partner just do as they want without regard for their spouses desires?

I'm not looking to start a fight here, but you deebra really seem to be hung up on this idea.
Perhaps the person you should be discussing this with is your spouse.

[Micki_Finn]

Of course she has a right to express her opinion. The man then has a right to either comply or ignore her request. And she has a right to leave him if his ignoring her request is too much to handle. This is how life works. It’s all about choices and living with the consequences.

[Macey]

Perfectly encapsulated, Micki. Couldn't have said it better.

[abbiedrake]

What Jodie and Micki said.
I can't count the time, on mildly moaning about keeping my facial hair, someone will say to me 'your body, your choice'.
Yep that's true. It's also true that if I decide to say to hell with her and indulge my every whim I'll soon be single, but hey that's my right to shave, yeah?
And then there's the times it's just downright selfish and crass. My disabled wife now has cancer to contend with. She's told me she can't deal with my dressing right now and I've told her fair enough, but that I'll want to return to the conversation about its place in my/our lives. Of course I could say 'meh it's Abbie time NOW!'. But seriously...?
Here's a thing juts because we have a right to a thing doesn't mean we have to exercise it. But if we do we can expect others to exercise their rights to react as they see fit.
This is just the same old question though, and unlike other questions and enquirers, yours is always the same and there's no appreciable gap between queries. There's no point to be proven here about the hypocrisy of society in letting women wear what they want.
You are beginning to sound simply misogynistic. And over such a small thing. Try male suicide or child custody and take it to the MRA (Mens Rights Activists) whack jobs OR enjoy your dressing and don't press buttons, hypothetical or otherwise.

[Jean 103]

Yes she does.

She has the right and should have the freedom to feel whatever she feels. Those are her feelings.

I'm not saying you have to like it.

I bet it is not the piece of clothing but the thought that she does not like. The clothing is just reminding her, like an annoying text. You feel you need to respond but do not want to.

So the real question is how much can she take and is it worth it?

[Gillian Gigs]

If a man wants to wear a minimal amount of female clothing does a wife have the right to say no? YES, relationships are about communication and compromise to help make both parties happy.

Let's say he likes female panties and wants to wear girl jeans too. And for pretty much the same reasons she does. The panties are sexy, comfortable and pretty. The jeans are soft, close to the body and attractive and feel very feminely nice over the panties. This is not a man in a dress that will draw attention. If the partner knows the reasons why, then the CD'er needs to know why she feels that way.

I wear this all the time and blend, blend, blend, never ever outed. We all know women wear male clothes wherever they want. Is this really a part of the issue.

Does he have the right to wear this if he wants and stand up to her or does she have the right to tell him no and then go dress in his clothes and go shopping. A relationship should not be about his rights, her rights, but what works best to make the relationship grow!

IYO (in your opinion) what are the limits, how far can he go??? He can go as far as his selfish self desires to go, but be prepared to accept the consequences. There is another post about divorce, and whether CD'ing is the sole cause of the break up. Marriage is not about him, or her, but about us, and what helps it to grow into a great relationship. Compromise is an important part of a marriage.

[CarlaWestin]

My wife knows that she's not just going to lay down the law about my crossdressing but, she is entitled to not participate. And she doesn't want my pink fog to choke out her environment.
So, respectfully, I don't let it. DADT and IDWTSI is a nice comfortable containment that keeps us both happy.

[chrissy111]

To me, it's all about us. Our wants and hopes is what keeps us happy.

[NancySue]

I agree...women’s clothes are definitely much more comfortable than men’s, even though my supportive wife would take issue with underwires, heels and hose. 😉 Acceptance? Yes. Control? Only about my desire to go out dressed. We live in a nosy smaller town, where everyone’s business seems to be talked about. I don’t look on this as ‘control’ but common sense. I have to agree, being seen or caught would be a social disaster. As most know, going out dressed is part of our “pink fog” and can range from a thought to a need. I dress underneath daily and go will go out. She worries about an auto accident, for which, I can’t argue. Several years ago, we did go out, to an out of town mall to see a movie. Guess what? We saw some friends of ours. Fortunately, they didn’t see us, but any further thoughts went down the drain. So, while I have no limits around the house, including lawn work or back porch, going out dressed is a No-no.

[deebra]

Jodie_Lynn, it's a subject for discussion, once again it's not about me, for a second time it's a subject for discussion, it's not about me, get it.

Why hasn't anyone said anything about the fairness of her wearing male clothes and going out and many wives tell him no. Not trying to start a war but answer the post for exactly what it is, if you post it is not all ways personally about the poster.

[Micki_Finn]

Because we’ve gone over that Deebra. Over and over and over and over and over...

[Tracii G]

I can't believe you asked the same question again Deebra.
If you don't like the answers you get then let it go.
Asking again isn't going to change the outcome of the group here you keep asking.
It would be like me trying on a size 20 jeans and being upset they don't fit when it reality I wear a size 26.
No matter the number of times I try the 20s on they aren't going to fit so why would I keep trying them on expecting a different result?

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Debra:hugs:, You can keep beating that same DEAD HORSE, but he will never get up.>Orchid ..+:daydreaming:+..

[Robertacd]

If a man wants to wear a minimal amount of female clothing does a wife have the right to say no?

We can stop right there.

Last time I checked with my wife our marriage was a partnership. We both have "veto power" over the other, but that power is not wielded arbitrarily or unilaterally.

[sometimes_miss]

what are the limits, how far can he go???
As one woman told me, he can go right out the door and keep on going!

Most of us would understand it as equivalent to a wife getting her hair cut to a man's style, then wearing a mustache 24/7. At some point, something simply changes how we feel about the other.

deebra, what's that old saying about doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results?

To me, it's about why we are adopting clothing of the opposite sex. Women don't wear men's clothing to try to emulate, or appear to be men. We DO wear female clothing to try to look like, emulate, behave, and even go through all sorts of vocal exercises to help us sound like women.

[Jodie_Lynn]

>>SNIP<<

I wear this all the time and blend, blend, blend, never ever outed.

>>SNIP<<

Firstly, I did answer your question. You just didn't get the answer you so desperately want to hear.

Secondly, if the quoted statement is correct, then what is your beef? YOU pass, and if you've never been clocked, then brava for you. But then, why the obsession with asking this question again and again?


I am very curious.

[abbiedrake]

Jodie_Lynn, it's a subject for discussion, once again it's not about me, for a second time it's a subject for discussion, it's not about me, get it.

Why hasn't anyone said anything about the fairness of her wearing male clothes and going out and many wives tell him no. Not trying to start a war but answer the post for exactly what it is, if you post it is not all ways personally about the poster.

I did, thanks, Deebra. Who exactly is making it personal? Other than you, I mean, obviously?!

[susan54]

There are many things in life that are not fair. Women still get paid less than men. They get asked much more often why they do not have children (which could be very wounding for some women). Yes, a man who tries to control what his wife wears is regarded as a bully and the converse does not apply. If you are seen in public wearing women's clothes, even jeans, it might affect your wife's status among her friends. No, it is not fair, but it is reality. You have to consider your partner and how your actions might affect her. So yes - she has a right to comment. And deny you the 'right' to go out dressed like that.

[SaraLin]

Why hasn't anyone said anything about the fairness of her wearing male clothes and going out and many wives tell him no.

It's really really pretty simple. It ISN'T fair. But then, few things in life really are.

This leaves you with two choices really:

You can take on some level of activism and try to change things. If you choose this path, more power to you, but be willing to accept consequences of your choices. Change doesn't come easy - and is usually unwelcome to most (at least at first).
OR
You can just "deal with it" and get on with living with the given rules.

Complaining about how it's not fair doesn't really help - and in fact tends to annoy people.

[Macey]

Deebra, you don't have to be at war with the rest of humanity over the choices you make.

If I like to talk too much about old warner brothers cartoons, or spend too much money on a guitar, or wax philosophic over the state of politics, or express my religious beliefs as I please, someone somewhere will not accept it. Someone somewhere will try to convince me that 'my' way is wrong and 'their' way is right. But with the infinite variation in humanity, someone somewhere also WILL accept you. Sometimes those 'someones' are even people that would never make the choices that you make, but are just fine with accepting you for your choices.

To that end, you do not need anyone's permission to dress or express yourself in what ever way you feel comfortable, but just in case you feel that you need someone's permission, *I* give you permission to be 'you'. And I think 'you' … however you want that to be, is just fine with me!

Speaking directly to your question about a loved one's acceptance, every close relationship means some level of compromise. You will need to find what compromises are acceptable to you, and find the right loved one to make those compromises with. That's not easy, but certainly worth the journey!

[abbiedrake]

Goddamned Warner Brothers cartoon talk. Again! I'm sick of it. Keep your ridiculous hand drawn opinions to yourself, Macey. 😉
What was the question again?

[Shelly Preston]

IYO (in your opinion) what are the limits, how far can he go???

This is a question that can only be answered by the individuals involved.

The fact that we are all different means you will get a different answer from each individual.

A partner does have the right to express an opinion.

If a partner says no is it Control, maybe, but then you would have to ask why.

If a partner says yes its Acceptance but is that for the individual moment or is it for longer.

[Jean 103]

Why hasn't anyone said anything about the fairness of her wearing male clothes and going out and many wives tell him no. Not trying to start a war but answer the post for exactly what it is, if you post it is not all ways personally about the poster.

OK I'll explain it to you.

You can say anything you want it does not change the fact that it is not the same.

To be fair there is one exception FTM.

women don't wear pants because they want to be a man or some feeling. Women want to be women, they wear pants because they are practical. Now mix in fashion and you have skinny jeans, capri......

This sounds like it is something you are stuck on and need to move past.

Here I'll fix it. You now have permission to wear whatever you want.

Feel better?

[Tracii G]

Everybody here has gotten past this and accepted the reality of the situation and deebra hasn't it seems.
Why is she stuck on the one thing?
No matter how many responses, answers and explanations that make sense and are grounded in reality she just chooses not to listen.
Why does this one thing run so deep in her mind that she can't shake it and just get on with life?
Here in middle America we call that being bull headed.

[Rhonda Darling]

Deebra:
I have a pretty good eye for these things and think you are totally wrong stating that women wear mens clothing (“We all know women wear male clothes wherever they want.”) Having grown up when there were HUGE catalogs from major retaiers available for me to peruse, and now when there is an infinite number of internet clothing shopping sites to look at — and the ability to make observations in real life — it is clear to me that most women don’t wear “mens” clothing, rather, they wear womens clothing styled after the mens styles of the modern western world. BUT THEY ARE WEARING WOMENS CLOTHING! Example —Very few women put on mens Levies or other heavy denim jeans, with no shape or fit. They don’t shop in the mens department for shirts, underwear, sox, shoes, etc., and they certainly don’t attempt to look like a man.

[Tracii G]

Exactly Rhonda but no matter how many times deebra is told this she chooses to dismiss it.

[Judy-Somthing]

Aren't men suppose to wear uncomfortable clothes and drink whisky that taste like paint thinner?

And God forbid if you color your hair or try to look younger with light makeup!

[JenniferMBlack]

Debra. It is your life live it how you want. If you are not happy with something, change it. No matter how many times you ask the question, the answer is the same. If your woman dosent want you wearing girls clothes we cant convince her with our comments. Your choice is do as she asks or don't. If you two cant be happy together maybe time to move on.

[Stephanie47]

Move to Washington State. Gender expression, i.e., cross dressing, is protected by anti-discrimination laws. I am free to wear what I want, when I want. Of course, my wife may express an opinion which I may or may not follow. We also have "no fault" divorce laws. We all bear the consequences of our actions.

[Teresa]

Deebra,
I often see this question as a little one sided , while I don't entirely agree with women wearing them to feel sexy , they're just clothes to most women . The point is how often does a husband /male patrtner tell their female partner or wife what they can and cannot wear and how much notice would they take ? So what right to they have to tell the man what he can or can't wear . Many men now wear skinny jeans now which can look very effeminate on some !

Yes women do wear male clothes on occasions but no one would consider calling them Cders , it's just a fact of life that never appears to change . My daughter often grabbed one of my sweaters if she felt chilled but couldn't be bothered to fetch her own , I know I couldn't have used the same excuse if I slipped on one of hers or my wife's . They can look cute and we would be told we look stupid !!

[Tracii G]

Teresa I wonder if a man has a spouse that grabs her man's clothing or sweater because she is "cold" for example.
What would happen if the husband said you look stupid wearing that take it off.
Or perhaps with an angry voice " those are mens clothes" whats the matter with you are you gay? do you want to be a man? If you wear that again I am going to tell all your friends you are gay and want to be a man.
See as ridiculous as that sounds thats exactly what some CDers wifes do and the CDer just takes it with his tail between his legs.
OK my rant is over.
Stand up guys and wear what you want.

[abbiedrake]

The problem, Teresa, with what Deebra (and to a lesser extent yourself) argues is that it's a false equivalence.
Women wearing plain shirts and jeans is a far cry from floral dresses, fake boobs, wigs and makeup.
Comfort and practicality drive many of the clothing choices of women. If they were restricted from wearing dresses it wouldn't be top of the agenda of things to rant about. Yet Deebra keeps returning to the unfairness of it.
I would suggest that even for those women who do exercise their clothing options, women's fashion is a two-edged sword. We might lack some of those choices generally unless we're willing to be judged, but that's just it - women are ubiquitously judged on their appearances. And the unfairness of that far outstrips the unfairness of men not having every clothing item in their repertoire.
It's facile to boil things down to moaning about the very surface of any perceived 'injustice'. It smacks of a grass is greener attitude at best. Couching it in terms of rights seems to me downright self-defeating when both genders have far greater injustices to address.

[deebra]

Judy-Something you got it , good post. Teresa you got it too, "what right does a woman have". And Tracii G thread 32 you also make my point. Wimpy little male Cders only know two words, "Yes Dear". Read my post again, it's just two pieces of clothing, panties are not visible, jeans are comfortable and blend, embarrass no one. Get It??? And for the third time the post was not personally about me, It Was A Subject I Wanted Discussed Because Of How Unfair It Was To Many Male CDers.

[Tracii G]

Ok now that this subject is settled finally Miss deebra can you stop bringing it up?

[Jodie_Lynn]

[QUOTE=deebra;4369278 >>SNIP<< And for the third time the post was not personally about me, It Was A Subject I Wanted Discussed Because Of How Unfair It Was To Many Male CDers.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and so?

Of all the cis-women I know, NONE of them have worn men's jeans or pants.
My daughter and my ex-wife have worn my tee shirts, because they are geeky graphic tee's and have no intrinsic 'gender'. My ex has worn my sweatshirts, when she was cold. So fecking what.

But to go on and on and on about how women wear men's clothes is ridiculous and petty.

And whoever told you that life was fair, lied to you.

Get over it. Move on.

[ellbee]

Deebra:
I have a pretty good eye for these things and think you are totally wrong stating that women wear mens clothing (“We all know women wear male clothes wherever they want.”) Having grown up when there were HUGE catalogs from major retaiers available for me to peruse, and now when there is an infinite number of internet clothing shopping sites to look at — and the ability to make observations in real life — it is clear to me that most women don’t wear “mens” clothing, rather, they wear womens clothing styled after the mens styles of the modern western world. BUT THEY ARE WEARING WOMENS CLOTHING! Example —Very few women put on mens Levies or other heavy denim jeans, with no shape or fit. They don’t shop in the mens department for shirts, underwear, sox, shoes, etc., and they certainly don’t attempt to look like a man.

Ugh, with the exception of those very last few words, will people here *please* stop saying this??

This is simply NOT true!!!


In literally another browser/window right now, I'm looking at a rather long thread from another forum about GG's with large/wide feet who buy & wear MEN'S shoes!

Heck, some have even chimed in and, because they have "normal"-sized feet, admit they actually buy & wear shoes from the BOYS' department, because oftentimes they can find something that works, is still decent quality --- but is relatively less expensive than the women's equivalent.


And this is just *one* example... of many!!


Quite a few GG's out there buy for themselves & actually wear -- as part of a "regular" outfit -- clothes from the men's department.

And I'm talking like practically EVERYTHING. Underwear, included. ;)


Will you see your 90-year-old mother/grandmother doing this? Doubtful.
Will you see GG's in their teens, 20s, 30s, 40s, even 50s doing this? Yep.
Will they flat-out tell you to your face? Maybe, maybe not.
Will you be able to tell by looking at their outfit? Maybe, maybe not.
Do they dress in *all* men's clothing, all the time? A few do, but most do not.
Are they trying to "pass" as a guy? Perhaps a few, but definitely not the majority.

These are typically (but not always!) hetero cis-females, at that.


Again, they are walking into a store, intentionally heading over to the *men's* department, checking stuff out & trying it on, buying it -- and wearing it at a later date.

Shirts, t-shirts, sweaters, hoodies, coats/jackets, shorts, pants, underwear, socks, shoes, pajamas, whatever. It doesn't matter. The only real exception I've seen is formal wear (i.e., men's suits & tuxedos)... Though I'm sure there are a few out there.


"But it's on the internet, so it's not real!"

Fine. In the offline world, I've had GF's & GG-friends literally "borrow" & wear *my* GUY-clothes, in front of my own eyes! Like, as part of their daily outfit.


Anyway, we've already been over this. It happens. More often than you think, at that. For all sorts of very valid reasons.

And no, they don't consider it CD'ing (though according to the dictionary, they technically are :shush: ). They are just clothes to them.

Get over it. :p

[docrobbysherry]

Men dressed in fem clothes r crossdressers. Some r trans and some do it for kinky, sexy, stimulating reasons.:o

Females rarely dress in fem or masculine clothes for any of those reasons!:brolleyes:

Whatever 2 people in a relationship do to make it work is none of your, deebra, my, or any of our, business! That includes their dressing, undressing, and everything else!:Angry3:

If u have issues why not say so? If not, why keep trying to stir us up this same nonsense?:straightface:

[Wifeling GG]

I have never once in all my years shopped for men's clothing unless it was for a man. I worked as a trauma nurse on a helicopter crew- often a very masculine-type attracting job (I'm a very feminine type and they had bets on how long I'd last and I passed 10 years before I had to give it up for my first round with cancer) and we often shared showers after a messy shift and I never saw any one of the women I worked with dress in men's clothing. My little sister is as 'Tom-boy' as you can get and she's never worn men's anything. I have known and do know women from ages 88 to 17 and none that I know have ever worn men's clothing. It's a fantasy. There is a very minute minority of women who express themselves with masculine wear and that's just fine but they are very easily seen. What makes you think tidy whities are more attractive to us than what we already wear? They're more expensive to begin with! Men's clothing is designed for men's body shapes just as women's clothing is designed for women's body shapes as you lot find out and have to accommodate for with padding and shape wear. Just for a lark I just tried on a pair of my husband's jeans and one, they are about 6" too long, for two they are way too low and wide on the waist, and three, they do nothing flattering whatsoever. I have average to narrow feet and men's shoes are definitely out for me. Men's shirts? Gimme a break! The sleeves are too long, the cuffs too wide the tail is too long, the collar is too high.

Men's wear is men's wear because it's designed to fit and flatter the male physique. Women's wear ditto for women.

Now, my ex husband had a grandmother who wore size 9 men's boots from a Sears & Robuck catalogue (she was never in a department store, only shopped mail order catalogues, and bartered and traded with her neighbours) because she worked tobacco until nearly her dying day and knew nothing else because she grew up so poor she got does after her two older brothers had worn them out and went on to do the same thing with her husband. She walked in ill-fitting shoes along plowed rows for so long her feet were flat, wide, arthritic, hard, and callused to the point nothing else would go on them. As a clinician I've known other elderly women who thought their only option for shoes were men's due to the effects of arthritis and/or edema on their feet but they were thrilled when we showed them there were feminine alternatives they were thrilled.

As I said, it's a fantasy.

[deebra]

ellbee thankyou for setting them straight, very true and well said. So sorry some just don't get it.
docrobbysherry, for the forth time it was not about me, it was a subject to be discussed. And a few got the point. I do not have issues, I am comfortable wearing female clothes at home and out. As I have said and ellbee put it so well, women buy and wear everything and men should too. Fairness, Equality, Non-discriminatory.

[Shelly Preston]

Deebra

I know the reason you raise the question is to have a discussion.

Unfortunately you see to ask the same question in different ways which is why people think you have issues.

ellbee makes a good point, but you will find the vast majority of women who wear something designed for a man, is because it fits better. Its for comfort an no other reason.

Only those Who Are FTM generally wear clothes designed for a man.
( not to be confused with clothes which have a masculine look but are designed for women)

[Tracii G]

Thats what I have seen Shelly she asks the same question just worded a different way.
Thats not being very productive just annoyingly repetitive and thats why people get upset with her.
When you answer a question over and over it gets old quickly.

[ReineD]

Why hasn't anyone said anything about the fairness of her wearing male clothes

Women who wear pants aren't wearing male clothes. lol

But to answer your thread, I think Jodie_Lynn in post#2 answered it beautifully. It's between the husband and wife, since everyone and all marriages are different. You want things to be black and white - one rule applies to all, but life is not like that.

If you are single and the situation you described does not apply to you, there really is no sense talking about hypotheticals. The solution will be different depending on the dynamics of each relationship. If on the other hand you do have a partner who gives you a hard time when you want to wear girl jeans, you'll need to work it out with her. I would suggest buying the jeans and not announcing to her the minute you walk in the door that they are girl jeans. Blue jeans all look the same to me, as I'm sure they do to most other people. :)

[hosekid]

Deebra, here is the cut and dry. We are American. We have freedom. Your wife can be mad and hate what you wear, but the choice is your's alone how you dress. It works the other way too. You have as much say in what your wife wears as she does in what you wear. If she doesn't want to go anywhere with you because of how you are dressed, then 1. you change clothes 2. she doesnt go with you. If you do not like what she wears, then 1. she changes clothes 2. you dont go with her. Would you be comfortable with her going some place if she bound her breasts and wore a fake mustache? Me personally, I would not like my wife to do this, but if that's what she chose, I'd support her 100% in public, although I might tell her I didn't like it in private. It sounds like you have a control problem in your house. Your wife wants to be in control of YOUR emotions/desires. YOU and only YOU have to decide what is right for YOU. Maybe the unfairness she demands is too much and you have to have world war 3 to stand up for yourself. Who knows what is best for you. Maybe you need to be more demanding in how she dresses. If she expects you to dress in a style that is acceptable to her, she should do the same for you. Right?

[Vickie_CDTV]

Yes, because of the way things work, she can. But there is an incredible about of hypocrisy involved. Let a married man tell his wife what she can and can't wear... I guarantee every woman around would call him a a male chauvinist pig and the claws would come out.

[ReineD]

You have as much say in what your wife wears as she does in what you wear.

I'm a GG. If my SO told me that he didn't like this or that outfit on me, you can be sure that I wouldn't wear those outfits when we're out together. This is called "mutual consideration". It is MY choice to consider his preferences as well as my own, for the mutual benefit of our happiness together.

And I dare say this holds true for freedom-loving non-Americans too! :)

And this works both ways. My SO is NOT a suit & tie person. Not at all. But, I asked that he buy one for my son's fancy wedding and because he loves me, he did. I even picked it, the shirt, the tie, and the fancy shoes out! He went along good-naturedly because he knew how important it was to me to not have him be the only man there wearing a Tshirt and jeans.

The bottom line is, I bought all the clothes in my closet because I obviously liked them all. If my SO doesn't like one outfit, I have plenty more that I can choose from. But ... if my SO went out and bought something completely opposite to what's in my closet, that I would NEVER wear (say a pink, frilly, flouncy little girl dress - I'm past middle-age), and insisted I wear it, I would have the right to say no. Likewise, I would never insist he wear his new suit when we're just going out to dinner.

I'm sure that Deebra has lots of clothes other than girls' jeans that Deebra can choose when they go out together. Still, I think that if Deebra hadn't announced to the wife about having bought jeans in the women's department, the wife would not even have noticed. :p

[abbiedrake]

Woe is me. I bridle under the yoke of monarchy. I wish I had 'freedom'. 🇬🇧
😜

[deebra]

ReineD I disagree about hypothetical, it a good subject for CD's to discuss, some are wimps to their wives and others might have a little backbone. And I do agree with the rest you said. Here Goes, I do have a S.O., we get along fine. I have a drawer full of panties, another thongs, etc. and 10 pair of girl jeans. Because of my masculine build she doesn't think girl jeans look good on me and she also understands what's offered for male jeans is bad. If I wear girl jeans when we go out it's very hard to tell they are. If I want more feminine jeans and to dress more feminine I do this when she is at work and dress in a way to blend. I never wear anything to embarrass either of us. I listen and like to please her but she does not have the final say what I wear and same for her with me. Housekid said it well, if we don't like what the other will wear we don't go out with them, this hasn't occurred with us ??? yet ??? She has no problem with me dressing, it's something I was born with, she understands this. CDing can be a good thing too because I buy a fair amount of her clothes and help her pick out the rest, she is attractive, feminine and curvy. IOW two on the same page can make for an enjoyable shopping trip, so different than a macho male shopping with his wife that's "bored stiff/ aren't you threw yet/ let's go".

[Stephanie47]

I have to respond to Jodie_Lynn (#36) as to whether cis-women wear men's clothing. My granddaughter who is in college is drop dead gorgeous. She and my wife routinely have gone "thrifting" for men's wear for my granddaughter. Because of her body type and size many times she has bought male youth sizes of jeans because the pants fit better. She also likes the fact the jeans have pockets. She also loves men's flannel shirts. If you ever see my granddaughter wearing men's jeans and a flannel shirt, you'll see she has no desire whatsoever to emulate a man.

I think that's the point. The underlying reason for choosing women's attire is critical to the woman's mind. I think many women would view a husband's desire to wear women's panties, and, nothing more than women's panties, as a "quirk" or "fetish." However, to a wife who knows her husband is a cross dresser even the appearance of him in women's pants is a reminder of something she wishes he would not be.

Sometimes my wife borrows one of my graphic tee shirts and on occasion a black vee neck tee shirt. My wife is not trying to emulate a man.

[RachelPortugal]

She may ask "Does my bum look big in this?" If you answer truthfully she will be happy, she can go out knowing she looks good or she can change into something else. She could choose to ignore you, but then why ask the question in the first place. In a relationship both parties need to respect the others wishes.

[ReineD]

ReineD I disagree about hypothetical, it a good subject for CD's to discuss, some are wimps to their wives and others might have a little backbone.

Well, you could have someone who has lots of backbone decide that he cares more about how his wife feels than wearing girl jeans when they are together. :)

It's all a question of priorities and balance. It doesn't mean he can't wear girl jeans ever. Each situation is different, each marriage dynamics is different.

[KayC]

I wouldn't recommend any husband or wife taking/wearing each other's things without permission. It's a matter of consideration and respect. Same with purses/wallets.

[ellbee]

As I said, it's a fantasy.

And with that logic, transsexuals are also a fantasy.

Hear me out...


I am not a TS. None of my offline friends are TS. None of my immediate or extended family members are TS. None of my co-workers (past or present, and I've had a lot of jobs) are TS. None of my neighbors are TS.

Ergo? TS's don't exist. They are a myth, they are a fantasy.


See how absolutely absurd that sounds? ;)



Anyway, you want GG's wearing tighty-whities?

A Google search so simple, that even I could do it. Just one example of many. Here you go (apparently she even uses her full name)...

"It’s confession time. It’s not so much a secret as more of an oddity. My stomach is a bit in knots because I feel a bit like a traitor. See, these days, I’ve been rocking underwear that I didn’t get at a ladies store. Nah. I’m wearing the tight white variety that I purchased in the men’s section."

https://www.itbysarahgschmidt.com/blog/2018/1/24/are-mens-underwear-a-better-fit-than-womens


Some GG's wear men's briefs, boxers, or boxer-briefs -- for all kind of reasons. Why is this so difficult to believe? Or do you think that only men have a lock on wearing underwear from the other side of the aisle? :brolleyes:


Easily seen, eh? Are you checking every GG's underwear now, are we? :heehee:

No, sometimes it is *not* obvious. Earlier this year, for example, I had overheard a 50-something GG co-worker telling someone how the hoodie she was wearing at the time was her *husband's*! She proceeded to tell them why (comfort, sizing, durability, etc.). Could there be other reasons, perhaps psychological, such as feeling closer to him when he wasn't physically around? Or possibly even physiological, due to his pheromones? (Here's a little more than that, for those interested... "Pheromones and their effect on women’s mood and sexuality"... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3987372/ )

Mind you, I had seen her wearing that very same hoodie multiple times prior to that conversation. And guess what? I had *no* idea it was from the men's section! Go figure, eh?


Anyway, for those who are able to stomach something like this, here's a young girly-girl (some who may find annoying?) shopping in the men's section -- for herself.

Over 2 million views...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqLza3RpOAI



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqLza3RpOAI


"Oh, but she's just doing that to attract attention on the internet, so she can make more money!"

Okay, fine. But then how do you explain these random comments from GG's who watched the video...? :thinking:


"Honestly boys section isn’t that half bad I buy clothes there sometimes"

"So, I noticed by now that Amber was the reason I started so shop in the men's section (even though I get really weird looks for that) and I am lucky I did, I found so many amazing clothes that fit me amazingly."

"I love that I’m sitting on my couch in only men clothes😅😂 "

"I'm 29 & I've been mixing & wearing men & women's clothing since I was a toddler. There's nothing "cool" or unique about it, it's just clothing. I know plenty of older ladies who do the same & they slap on some extravagant jewelry to add to their style or make it more feminine. Then again I work in the art world. I never understood why females, especially young females, never leave their comfort zone."

"I just shop in the men’s section cause they got some awesome t-shirts and pants and they have shoes in my size. I shop in the women’s section then never wear the clothes sooooooo."

"i actually found my favorite ever clothing article in the men’s section in forever 21!! it’s a huge oversized black and white fuzzy coat 😍😍 it’s so comfortable and also such a look lol"

"ok but the men's section always has the best stuff"


And plenty more where that came from.

Oh, these darn GG's, perpetuating that "fantasy"... :p

[Tracii G]

Well its obvious she is super rich and thinks everyone wants to watch her on you tube.
Such a huge ego she has.

[ReineD]

And with that logic, transsexuals are also a fantasy.

Hear me out...


The fantasy held by many CDers here, that women wear men's clothes, has absolutely nothing to do with transsexuals. Nothing.

The link and video you posted: it's click-bait. Anything controversial, anything with big personalities and lots of pizzazz will attract clicks. It's a form of entertainment and is not representative of how the vast majority of women dress. This video got lots of views because Amber has hundreds of videos on her channel and has cultivated 2 million followers over time. A quick glance showed only this one video that had anything to do with women wearing men's clothes. The comments I read supported her, and were not a rallying-cry for women to start wearing men's clothes.

Last, did you see the men's clothes she did buy? They're all clothes that you can find in women's stores as well. They're not purely men's clothes (the same way [-]a dress[/-] purple leggings, bright red lipstick, or a padded bra are seen as purely women's item in our society), she actually bought gender-neutral clothes.

[abbiedrake]

Ellbee, everything Reine said but I'll go a little further.
If you have to invoke the Internet as your sole source of proof then the point is already moot. If YouTube is gonna form the basis of your argument then you'd also have to admit that TidePodivores are actually a thing ffs.
Talk about using the exception as proof of the rule. 😒 And that's without the numbers:
300+ hours of video uploaded every minute. 5 billion views per day. You cited how many examples?!

Wifeling's point was more that the women who buy men's clothing are so vanishingly small a constituency as to be statistically insignificant. Well within most margins of error and hence proof of nothing.
Then there's your attempt to turn around
what she said "And with that logic,
transsexuals are also a fantasy." 🤦*♀️
Here's an irony for you, as I type this
Wifeling is lying in bed next to me, asleep. In a Superman tee-shirt of mine. She knows it, I know it. But neither of us would call her a crossdresser, nor would anyone who saw her in it. It's gender neutral. And here I'm ignoring that there are plenty of people now who take
your point and run with it, that unless they have direct experience of a thing it must not exist. Flat-earthers come to mind, or those who suggest that TGs only exist as the product of a corrupt media because, crucially, they don't know any themselves.
Please let's not take this down the reductio ad absurdum route.

I've made the point previously that there's a world of difference between a GG wearing plain jeans and men's tee and most of us who will lean towards more stereotypically female-only attire, not to mention wigs, forms, shape wear etc. I stand by that because it really is comparing apples and oranges and this, I think, is where the original point and any discussion collapses.
Is it unfair? Yeah, a little. I have used the term 'panvestite' more than once to make the distinction. But is it worth any great debate, is it worth invoking talk of 'rights'? No and no. There are far bigger fish to fry for both genders when it comes to equality.
And then, on a far more personal level it
always comes down to those directly
involved. My wife's struggles with my
dressing can be discussed by this
community but me canvassing you all to see if I have a 'right' to dress wouldn't help at all. I could expect to find myself single if I decided that 'right' was more important than my relationship with my wife.

[ellbee]

Reine:

Umm, are we following along, at all? :heehee: Regarding TS's, I was simply using the same "logic" that because they are not present in my personal circle of everyday life, then they must not exist anywhere -- even though we already know full well that they actually *do*, albeit elsewhere! This is precisely the train of thought used by the person I was replying to. "It doesn't happen in my tiny portion of the world; therefore, it doesn't happen anywhere!"


People can shut their eyes, put their hands over their ears, and scream excuses as loud as they want... But it still doesn't change the fact that quite a few GG's, for all kinds of various reasons, wear all kinds of clothing from the men's department! And this is certainly nothing new... This has been going on for a loooong time (well before the GG who made this YouTube video was even born, I may add ;) ).

It really is beyond belief that some refuse to accept this basic fact. Not sure what the big deal is. Maybe some really do have an issue, perhaps subconsciously, with people wearing the "wrong" clothes?

And this is not some CD'er's "fantasy" trying to justify themselves or make themselves feel better -- this is real life. It's a big world out there, and nothing wrong with expanding one's horizon every now & then.


Anyway, let me get this straight: So in order to be a CD'er, a guy must wear dresses now? Thank God for that bit of info -- because I don't own a single dress!

Of course, I now wonder what I'm even doing here, then? :strugglin

But at least you qualified it with "in our society." Because we already know that in other places around the world, throughout history, including present day, that accepted men's clothing may be "skirts" or "dresses." Then again, "our society" is also quite diverse, arguably becoming moreso by the hour. So, you know... You may need to redefine "our society" in order to include these cultures & their customs. :)


abbie:

How much proof would you like? Would 10 examples suffice? 100? 500? And what exactly, in your eyes, "counts as proof"? So, examples (mine & others') from the internet are totally out of the question? Fine. If anyone would care to visit, I'll introduce them to the GG's in my life, past & present, who have either worn my guy-clothes as part of their daily outfit, or have worn guy-clothes that either they or loved ones own. Will that be good enough? Or will excuses be made for them, too?

I can only lead a horse to water -- but I can't make it drink.


Anyway, I will leave off with this. No frills, no qualifiers, just straight-up from the professional word-experts...

cross-dressing noun

: the act or practice of wearing clothes made for the opposite sex

[abbiedrake]

The issue is not whether or not women technically crossdress but whether it's fair or not. And that's ignoring the colloquial connotations of the term 'crossdressing'. Quote dictionaries as much as you like but that won't change the fact that most won't understand it as applying in the same way as to men in dresses.
As for citing the net, 🤷*♀️, the number isn't so important as its relationship to the subject. YouTube, in particular, is host to a variety of behaviours that none of us would argue are normal, much less prevalent enough to be representative of society at large. Arguments that an extreme is somehow normative is the fantasy. Neither Wifeling nor Reine argued that things outside their sphere of experience do not exist. That's your confection, not theirs. The contention remains that women wearing an item or two of men's clothing are not the same as the overwhelming majority of participants here. And of the few women who might go further they exist in such small numbers as to not warrant inclusion. Splitting hairs over technicalities of definition make no difference to the points made.
Put another way, yes you're technically right, Ellbee. Some women do wear some men's clothing, so what?? 🤷*♀️
What my wife called a fantasy was the idea that women 'crossdress' as frequently as most of us, or for the same reasons, or that society at large views both as being equal. Women wearing men's clothing was not the point of contention.

[deebra]

And to all that find fault and think I go on and on about the same subject...…..58 threads and it's still going strong. Even brought Reine out of retirement. What about new CD's, I'm sure they learned something. See when I post and I do very often I contribute and keep this forum lively with discussions. Good Job Deebra, Keep It Up.

[Tracii G]

58 posts or responses to your thread to be factually correct.
You do go on about the same subject the proof is out there and people call you out on it all the time.
Why you ask? Because you do.

[abbiedrake]

And to all that find fault and think I go on and on about the same subject...…..58 threads and it's still going strong. Even brought Reine out of retirement. What about new CD's, I'm sure they learned something. See when I post and I do very often I contribute and keep this forum lively with discussions. Good Job Deebra, Keep It Up.

I'm oh so utterly pleased you posted this, Deebra!!!!
I've only been CDing for 19 months and only been on this site for 7 of those. And boy did you teach me a thing or two.
I'm so very glad you're here. It'd clearly be utterly dead were it not for you gracing us with your profound and multifarious thunkpieces.
Yep 58 super constructive replies right here. Super lively and, as mentioned, captivatingly edumacational.


SMH


Oh but credit where it's obviously due - YOU brought Reine out of 'retirement'....



Your hubris reads like a gilded invitation to ad-hominem-ville.

[ReineD]

Even brought Reine out of retirement.

Lol :) ..







Reine:

Umm, are we following along, at all? :heehee:

I think so. :)



Regarding TS's, I was simply using the same "logic" that because they are not present in my personal circle of everyday life, then they must not exist anywhere -- even though we already know full well that they actually *do*, albeit elsewhere! This is precisely the train of thought used by the person I was replying to. "It doesn't happen in my tiny portion of the world; therefore, it doesn't happen anywhere!"

A different example, not likening them to women who wear "men's" wear, might have been less offensive to our TS members and those of us who support them.




People can shut their eyes, put their hands over their ears, and scream excuses as loud as they want... But it still doesn't change the fact that quite a few GG's, for all kinds of various reasons, wear all kinds of clothing from the men's department! And this is certainly nothing new... This has been going on for a loooong time (well before the GG who made this YouTube video was even born, I may add ;) ).


What’s quite a few - 1%, 10%, 50%? The vast majority of women don’t buy their clothes in men’s stores because men’s clothes don’t fit them as well, unless they are into the slouchy, comfortable stuff for sleeping or hanging out in at home. There’s a large campus in my town where I take classes every semester. I can say that virtually NO young women or female professors look as if they bought their clothes in men’s stores. These women you write of - do they buy hanging-around-the-house clothes in men’s stores such as men’s flannel bottoms, large T-shirts and hoodies? These same things are found in women’s stores too, although likely not big enough to be as comfortable, depending on a woman’s size. Or do your friends buy men’s slacks, men’s polo shirts, suits & ties, and men’s dress shoes for work or going out in the evening.

Please don’t confuse gender-neutral clothing with men’s wear. Of course both men and women wear gender-neutral clothing. There is even a store in our mall that doesn’t have a men’s or women’s section, it’s the same stuff for everyone! Mostly very casual clothing, not unlike the stuff we see in men’s and women’s casual clothes departments, except maybe more goth. I don’t think the average crossdresser would like to shop there though. The stuff wouldn’t be feminine enough.



It really is beyond belief that some refuse to accept this basic fact. Not sure what the big deal is. Maybe some really do have an issue, perhaps subconsciously, with people wearing the "wrong" clothes?

And this is not some CD'er's "fantasy" trying to justify themselves or make themselves feel better -- this is real life. It's a big world out there, and nothing wrong with expanding one's horizon every now & then.

No one wears the "wrong" clothes, although some wives may have difficulty with the idea of their husbands wearing women's clothes. But, CDers don’t do themselves any favors when they aren’t honest with themselves about why they wear women’s clothing. Rationalizing that if it’s OK for women to wear "men’s" clothes, it should be OK for men to wear women’s clothes, doesn’t help a person come to terms with their real motives.



Anyway, let me get this straight: So in order to be a CD'er, a guy must wear dresses now? Thank God for that bit of info -- because I don't own a single dress!

Of course, I now wonder what I'm even doing here, then? :strugglin

The word "dresses" was a symbolic representation of items worn by crossdressers that non-crossdressing males don’t wear. It’s a short-cut. I can replace it with purple leggings or bright red lipstick. Or padded bras.




But at least you qualified it with "in our society." Because we already know that in other places around the world, throughout history, including present day, that accepted men's clothing may be "skirts" or "dresses." Then again, "our society" is also quite diverse, arguably becoming moreso by the hour. So, you know... You may need to redefine "our society" in order to include these cultures & their customs. :)

Did I make you angry or something? If so, my apologies. I did specify our society, because I do know there are cultural clothing differences in other parts of the world. And I didn’t want anyone to go off-topic by getting into a long discussion about kilts, dhotis, sarongs, longyis, khangas, etc, or the fact there is a painting of Henry VIII wearing what would be defined today as a skirt. lol. Still, even in those places and times, there is/was differentiation between men’s and women’s clothing. A crossdresser in Henry VIII’s day would not have worn what he wore. He would have worn what one of his wives wore.




cross-dressing noun

: the act or practice of wearing clothes made for the opposite sex

Nope. At the age of 79 and on a limited retirement income, my father figured out that buying high elastane-content tights in women’s wear was much cheaper than buying the medical compression hose his doctor had recommended after his heart attack. This is not crossdressing. I bought a wonderful white linen men’s shirt to wear over everything in the summer, for sun protection. The women’s stores in my area had nowhere near the same selection in shirts. It’s gauzy and flowy and it doesn’t even look like a man’s shirt. That is not crossdressing either. It is gender-neutral! :)

[SabrinaEmily]

Sigh.

I have no dog in this fight. I don't identify as a crossdresser and never have. At this point in my life I don't care what crossdressing is or isn't. I know I'm transgender and don't feel the need to use weasel words to evade that. I wear clothes that feel right for me and work for the situation, sometimes dresses, sometimes men's suits, sometimes shorts and T-shirts, sometimes skirts and T-shirts.

I see women wearing (probably, based on cut, apparent pocket size, etc.) men's trousers from time to time -- I wouldn't say often, but probably a bit more often than I see men wearing (probably) women's trousers. I saw several this weekend at an art gallery, so maybe people just aren't looking in the right places.

I feel terrible for people who are in relationships or life situations that stop them from exploring gender expression in a safe and satisfying way. And yes, a lot of those relationships can be fairly described as "controlling". For anyone who knows or suspects they may be trans and has the opportunity to avoid unaccepting relationships, doing so is fundamental to caring for oneself. I find it better without a doubt to be alone than to submit to the loneliness of being coupled unloved, or worse, loved for what one is not and hated for what one is.

[Glenda58]

Wife knows I dress but doesn't want it around her That said she know I have only panties and all my jeans are women's plus most of my shorts for summer.

[suzanne]

A partner in a committed relationship has a right to express their opinions and have them seriously considered and respected, but not necessarily obeyed all the time. You should listen, but the final decision is yours. A partner cannot issue directives, lay down the law, or deliver ultimatums. If they do, they do not see you as an equal partner but more as a subordinate or slave. If my wife had delivered the "No dressing ever." ultimatum, it would have been a deal breaker.

[deebra]

Thankyou Suzanne for the above #65 thread. Well said, that is my point, I agree.

[Tracii G]

I agree with post #65 too.

[deebra]

Call 911, I just fell out of my chair, Tracci G agreed with me.

[lingerieLiz]

If you can't work it out and agree on some points you don't have a good relationship and need to get on with your life.