Female equivalent to CD?

[JLove]

Apologies if I'm posting this in the wrong area of the forum (I'm new around here!), or if it's something that has been discussed previously! My CD BF and I were talking yesterday and trying to figure out if there is a female equivalent to CD. It seems to me like women wearing traditionally male clothes is generally accepted and not something a woman would feel she has to hide - for example, no one would look askance at a woman in a menswear suit (thank you, Madonna!). While men are able to don wigs, apply makeup, and dress in women's clothing, I can't think of any real equivalent for women (unless they're interested in adding extra facial/body hair!). What do you think? Am I missing something? Enquiring minds want to know. :)

[Stephanie47]

I've been alive for more than seven decades. In that time I have not encountered a female cross dresser. Members of my family (wife, daughter and granddaughter) have worn clothing made for men. However, none wore clothes to try to emulate a man. My granddaughter found she likes men's flannel shirts as many of her girlfriends. They like the comfort. It seems to be some sort of style. They also like thrift stores for great bargains. My granddaughter also bought boy jeans because she is a skinny butt and young men's jeans fit her body. In no way does she alter her totally drop dead beautiful appearance. When my daughter was young she wore men's jeans because women's jeans did not have pockets. All three generations are their friends do not try to do any body modifications to emulate a man. Nor do they try to adopt male mannerisms. Of course there is always the Halloween "switch," but, that is not a dedicated cross dressing issue.

Yes, society seems to give women a lot more freedom when it comes to wearing clothing. There is a female to male pre-operative transsexual in our extended family, but, that is a different issue. It is not an issue of cross dressing.

As to people looking askance at women looking like a male. My wife when she was recovering from the effects of cancer chemotherapy overheard a woman commenting about her hair being short. She said something to the effect of "that look does not become a woman." Well, my wife got in her face and tore her a new asshole. "Maybe some women are growing their hair back after chemo!" I think that was the last time that women will make that mistake. So, there are "traditional" women who are prejudice against women who do not appear "feminine enough."

[VS Fan]

Yeah the female equivalent would at the very least involve binding the breasts and then possibly facial hair of some sort - short haircuts as well. Many like to claim that women wearing jeans etc is “cross dressing” which I suppose it would be if they were men’s jeans (vs women’s jeans) but the fact is that crossdressing for men usually involves fake boobs, a wig, makeup etc... so unless you are trying to “present” as the alternate sex, it’s not quite the same.... but yes FtM (female to male) crossdressers do exist! I would say not as common though but I have no stats to back that up other than the relative activity in the MtF section here versus the FtM section...

[Fran-K]

Many like to claim that women wearing jeans etc is “cross dressing”...

Hi
I’d think it’s more the equivalent of MIAD (WIMCs - women in men’s clothes?)

Fran

[Helen_Highwater]

There are such folks a CD'ing females. the problem is that they're often much harder to identify simply because as it's been pointed out, females dressing in male clothing is nothing new. Women can carry off short hair styles under the guise of being trendy. MTF CD is more obvious because the switch in clothing, the addition of makeup, presentation generally, is more pronounced. FTM would mean no makeup but many GG's don't anyway but it doesn't make them CD.

There's a section in the forum for Transmasculine (https://www.crossdressers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?5-Transmasculine) and given that within our community there's a spectrum of degree of dressing, it makes sense that such a spectrum exist for the female world. Like those here who move towards transition it's usually a stepped process. Why is it such a leap to think that it happens in a similar fashion for GG's?

[Tracii G]

Most of the outfits women wear that look like mens clothes are actually made for women so that is not CDing.
VS fan pretty much nailed it I think.

[JLove]

Stephanie47, I appreciate your insights. Thank you. And good for your wife! What an ignorant thing for that woman to say. :( I hope your wife is well and healthy.


I would say not as common though but I have no stats to back that up other than the relative activity in the MtF section here versus the FtM section...

That's kind of what I was thinking. It doesn't seem to be as common or as obvious.

Helen_Highwater, thank you for your insights - much appreciated! I guess I wasn't so much thinking of GGs who were in the process of transitioning, but GGs who were only interested in dressing as men.

Thanks to all who have responded! I guess I need to learn more about the technicalities of using the forum, as every time I try to reply individually my post gets merged with my earlier one.

[Robertacd]

Well there are DRAG KINGS.

Basically the GG version of a drag queen. Dressed in menswear, makeup that creates a beard shadow, and perform songs by male singers.

[abbiedrake]

Perhaps this will help. https://www.historyextra.com/period/tudor/revealed-the-secrets-of-the-tudor-cross-dressers/

Plus the recent BBC drama Gentleman Jim, about a lesbian who dressed as a man.

And while it's admittedly a stereotype it's one that's a truism that some lesbians still use a close approximation of a male presentation.

In fact were it not for the greater clothing freedom women now take for granted, it's probable that more women would crossdress in some similar fashion to those of us M2F CDs for whom it's no part of our sexual identity.

However studies appear to be next to none existent. Hmm. Still a Google search of 'Female to Male Crossdressers' proves instructive. Literally.

[JLove]

Perhaps this will help. https://www.historyextra.com/period/tudor/revealed-the-secrets-of-the-tudor-cross-dressers/However studies appear to be next to none existent. Hmm. Still a Google search of 'Female to Male Crossdressers' proves instructive. Literally.

Indeed it does! Who knew?! Thanks for your insights, abbiedrake. :)

Robertacd, my BF mentioned drag kings when we were chatting. I think I must have lived a very sheltered life, as I'm not sure I'd ever heard of them! Always glad to be educated.

[Tracii G]

This place is the best place to get your education on this stuff.
Keep in mind what you think you may have known about CD ing is more than likely completely wrong.
So much to learn here.

[AllieSF]

Going into San Francisco for fun and enjoyment over the years has brought ma into contact with a few women/younger girls who told me that they crossdressed as a guy, as I was at that time crossdressing as a woman. I do agree that they are not that common to encounter and even harder to identify when the androgynous/almost male look is also used by some lesbians to distinguish themselves from the more feminine lesbians and straight females.

[carhill2mn]

No, you are not "missing something". Since about the '60's women have been able to wear men's clothing without being shamed. In fact, women's clothing were advertised as
"men's wear' styling for a few years.

[Meghan4now]

There is, indeed, such thing as a ftm cd, as there are drag Kings and trans-men. And there are the Halloween or party equivalents too. And there are very masculine women, straight, bi and gay.

I can't recall every meeting a habitual ftm cd, but have met plenty of all the other varieties, especially trans men, and Butch girls.

[Robertacd]

JLove, I never heard of a drag king either until I started going to drag shows regularly.

But since "drag" is really an acronym for dressed as a girl. Shouldn't " Drag Kings" really be called "DRAB Kings"? :p

Anyway the Transmen section of this forum used to be called "Female to Male Crossdressers" but the members of that forum lobbied to change the name to "Transmen" because they didn't like being called crossdressers.

[char GG]

Hi JLove,
I don't know any FtM crossdressers but I know a FtM transman. He is, of course, on hormones, has a "real beard", and had breast removal surgery. He started to transition in his early 20's and is now in his early 30's.

I have known this guy since he was a baby so the progression was interesting. He had a rough patch for a while (mainly due to lack of a girlfriend) but seems happy now.

[nvlady]

I have seen some very masculine looking bull-dykes. Short hair in a man's hairstyle, men's clothing, trying to present as a man. Wouldn't this be considered crossdressing?

[Tracii G]

Nvlady those would be butch lesbians in most cases.
Technically dressing like a man but not presenting as a man and presenting as a lesbian.

[abbiedrake]

Don't go overboard with the politic correctness there, nvlady! Lol

[AngelaYVR]

Whatever the reasons a woman has to wear men’s clothing (actual men’s, not women’s clothes cut in a masculine style), it is still technically cross dressing. I’m not too sure why the women are being given a pass on this from some members.

Saying that without a fake beard (or some such extra thing) a women is not a CD means that the members here who only wear women’s undies or dresses but no makeup or padding are also NOT cross dressing!

[MarinaTwelve200]

JLove, I never heard of a drag king either until I started going to drag shows regularly.

But since "drag" is really an acronym for dress as a girl. Shouldn't ",Drag Kings" really be called "DRAB Kings"

Anyway the Transmen section of this forum used to be called "Female to Male Crossdressers" but the members of that forum lobbied to change the name to "Transmen" because they didn't like being called crossdressers.


DRAG being an acronym is only a fairly recent thing.---When first used it was an old theatre term for costume type and not crossdressing. "Medieval drag", "Cowboy Drag", for instance like the ERA or type of costuming ---and not for simply dressing like a woman. In early to mid 20th century the word "Drag" used alone usually DID begin refer to it's present day meaning, and eventually used so much so as to mean its present day definition. It became an acronym when it was discovered it COULD stand for Dressed like a girl---and thought to be so "clever" that it stuck.

But again to determine if there are indeed F 2 M crossdressers we have to look at the REASONS FOR crossdressing that may vary. Many Straight Crossdressers take issue with "Gay Crossdressers" or "Transsexuals" who identify with the opposite sex. As much crossdressing is done for other reasons, fetish, escape, S&M, etc. -----I suppose the same would apply to Females as well as Males----Just that there are much FEWER Bio-Females who are into CD.

[Jodie_Lynn]

Hi
I’d think it’s more the equivalent of MIAD (WIMCs - women in men’s clothes?)

Fran

Shouldn't that be WIMP's? "Women In Men's Pants?" :D

[Fran-K]

Hi Jodie Lynn

I’m usually pretty good at coming up with acronyms but today, fuhgeddaboudit ...
So I bow to your superior acronymity ;-)

Fran

[Alice Torn]

More and more, i have to do double takes, to decide whether many women, are women or me, due to so many women with very short haircuts, like mens, and wearing clothing very much like men's. Especially my baby boomer generation women over 50/

[GeorgeA]

AngelaYVR wrote:
Saying that without a fake beard (or some such extra thing) a women is not a CD means that the members here who only wear women’s undies or dresses but no makeup or padding are also NOT cross dressing!
Yes, we MIADs consider ourselves crossdressers and discussion here is whether there is a female equivalent to MIAD, eg. wearing the clothes but not presenting as the opposite sex. Many women do fall into this category.

[Vickie_CDTV]

I have a GG friend who has engaged in F2M crossdressing, both as a performance and in public. She doesn't do it often but does do it once in a great while (she also loves dressing up as a "faux queen" and performing.) It isn't quite a perfect analog to M2F transvestism, but it is close.

[Ressie]

Decades ago there were studies that found a small percentage of transvestites were women. If they would rather be called transmen OK, but to me transmen are transitioning rather than cross dressing.


"Female transvestism seems to be rare and of somewhat doubtful reality. Women's fashions are such as to allow a female transvestite to indulge her wish to wear male attire without being too conspicuous. Her deviation has been considered merely arrogant while male transvestism is to many objectionable because, in their opinion, it humiliates."

The TRANSSEXUAL PHENOMENON Harry Benjamin, M.D.

[Debra Russell]

In my community we have a large group of college age students that frequent the coffee shop I go to. I see two or three girls (GG) that I believe would fit the scope of female crossdressers; men's clothing that fit (shoes also), hair style, no makeup, back pack - no purse, minimal if any breast present. These girls are slim petite and really cause a second look and I wonder if we as crossdressers cause the same question in onlookers minds. This is not exactly the way I envision transmen or lesbian presentation - but who knows, before this thread I never really tried to determine which one but felt a definite connection - still feeling like they have it easier and somewhat more accepting …..……………………………..Debra

[JLove]

Thank you, all, for great conversation and insight! I truly wish we lived in a world where everyone felt comfortable and safe wearing whatever made them happiest - without guilt, shame, or fear. I will do my best to do whatever I can in my own little world to support that notion.

[Robertacd]

Ressie, that's how I feel too. I didn't call myself a transwoman until I admitted to myself that I was indeed transgender.

Back at the time of the F2MCD name change that subforum was very active apparently with a lot of Transmen. They complained untill Tamera changed it for them, then within a few months they all left and that sub forum has never really been as active since.

[Mary Lawrence]

This is an interesting societal issue. The fact is that in much of today's USA, women can wear what they want, whereas men cannot. For most women who wear clothes that are traditionally male, I suspect they do so a) because they find the garments worn as appealing to their sense of fashion; or b) because they are using clothing to make a statement about sex-related politics; or because other, similar women now present themselves in the same manner.


In my extended family, there are 4 married female couples. In each case, one has short hair, especially on the sides, and dresses in a very manly fashion. Her partner invariably is more feminine in appearance. I have no idea why that arrangement has emerged, but it seems very common these days. Is it truly crossdressing when the clothing worn in no longer the exclusive prerogative of the opposite sex?

[sarah_hillcrest]

I knew a few young people who on first glance would appear to be FtM crossdressers, but they would never identify that way. One is fully Trans and the others consider themselves Gender Queer or Gender Fluid.

[Teresa]

JLove,
Since being out full time I've had more conversations with people where they mention close family or friends who are F/M and the same terms do apply .

[sometimes_miss]

Just that there are much FEWER Bio-Females who are into CD.
I think that there are probably plenty of women who indulge in FTM crossdressing, they're just not noticed. Lots of women out there envy the public life that men have, only we don't notice it because, well, we are men. So it's not much of a stretch, for them to want to 'try on' that life for themselves, even if only a little bit. Go out and not be looked at at all? Check. Not having to carry a purse? Check. Wearing comfy shoes that you don't have to worry about messing up? Check. Lots more, but you can figure it out.

Just as a lot of us don't go all out 10/10ths trying to emulate a woman every time we crossdress, there are likely plenty of FTM crossdressers that probably don't, either. They stay under the radar because they can. WE CAN'T. I don't swish and sway. I don't change my body mechanics. I don't change my voice. I don't wear make up.
But I can't wear any type of skirt, dress, or article of female styled without being clocked. Pretty much any woman who wants to wear men's Jockey shorts, a men's T shirt and plain men's socks in men's sneakers can also wear men's jeans and a men's shirt without being noticed at all. She crossdresses with zero notice whenever she wants. Maybe when she is at home alone, she plays at walking with a swagger and plays with her voice, lowering it and reducing to an almost monotone. She can outwardly change her gait into a men's type without notice as well, witn zero notice (unless she decides to go full macho swagger which would give what she's doing, away)No one would ever know.
Would I go out wearing panties, woman's capri pants, kitten heels, a pretty, lacey top, earrings if it were going to be unnoticed by everyone else? Sure. But that's not reality. For a woman, the reverse is certainly not only possible, but actually practical, and no one blinks an eye. They don't have to wear male designed clothes designed to fit a woman's figure. They can wear actual men's clothing. So if they want to crossdress, they can do it whenever they want. So are there probably way more FTM crossdressers out there than we suspect? You betcha. And no one will ever know. You can catch a few, if you look really, really carefully, but I'll bet no one ever does.
Maybe zero make up; hair tucked up under a baseball cap. Clipped nails, no polish. No earrings. No rings, bracelets, but a men's watch is present. Plain black phone. NO purse, simple wallet in her back pocket. Stuff in other pockets. Worn out in parts, or maybe slightly torn looking flannel work shirt, while women who usually WILL wear a men's shirt, but not a scrungy one. Maybe worn looking steel toed work shoes or engineer boots even though she's just out shopping at Ulta. But since you can't spot the men's underwear, that clue is gone.
Is she a FTM crossdresser? Possibly. But because she's free to wear what she wants, we'll never actually know.

While my ex never wore men's underwear (AFAIK), she certainly wore casual men's clothing a lot (loose jeans & loose fitting T shirt,s, well worn flannel shirts, even rugged men's work shoes especially in bad weather so I can't chalk that up to it, but maybe? Who knows) and eliminated many stereotypical feminine behaviors from her public presentation. And I suppose there are a lot of other women who do the same.

[Teresa]

Lexi,
There is a difference on the whole F/M don't crossdress on a whim , most do have GD , they don't want to appear more macho but just look masculine rather than feminine.

[suzanne]

The female equivalent to "crossdresser" is called a "woman", even if she's very much on the masculine end of the gender spectrum. Like Ellen deGeneris, married to the much girlier Portia de Rossi or Stephanie Allyne's wife Tig Notaro, no matter how they present, they are still women, and don't you dare challenge them on that point.

On the other hand, we may yet arrive at the point where there is no confusion or fear about what we are. We have not been on anyone's radar screen as long as have the G's B's, L's, or T's.

[GeorgeA]

Lexi,

I tend to agree with your essay on the whole, minor points excluded.