Is it like a self fulfilling prophecy?

[Jean 103]

I see it here and with other minorities. Self segregation, isolationism.

Those in the closet are one thing, I don't expect them to know anything. How could they, they live in a fantasy world.

Then there are those that venture out.

Where do they go and what do they do?

TG events, gay clubs, meet ups with other TG people, alphabet community friendly place's, other places that limit interaction with the general public.

With limited information gathered they talk amongst them selves and come up with these slanted beliefs.

This leads to among other things like :

fear of the public. I'm not saying there are not dangerous people out there. As a woman there is a need to be aware, not afraid, of your surroundings.

Acceptance , do you go around as a guy worrying about this? Than why as a woman would you?

Appearance, as a woman this is tied to you self image. It tells the world a bit about you. Like dull and boring or hip and fun, amongst other things.

Why all this? Has Jean lost it? No, I'm to the point where others like me fall off the radar. I have become part of the community, live in the real world, have friends, boyfriends.

Like to night is my TG support meeting. I just started going again. I have made the last two meetings. I have an appointment at my friends salon to get my root done this afternoon. There will be just enough time afterward to make the meeting.

But today is a close friends birthday, we dated for awhile, than he dumped me. We are still very close. Ok, he dumped me because he is gay, he wants a gay man. I have always known this, I hoped he would fall in love with me like my other boyfriends. He did just not in that way.

This leads to my final point. I don't see myself as gay. My boyfriends understand this, as I see myself as a woman.

[Micki_Finn]

I would red flag your statement. There is a difference between building communities of people with shared experience and/or like minds, and “self segregation” Just because I go out to a club with other gay people doesn’t mean I’m isolating myself from the world. Sports fans regularly attend events that are just comprised of other sports fans (games) but that doesn’t mean they are segregating themselves from non-sports fans.

[Jean 103]

Really, r u gay?

R u likely to run into Joe six pack?

R u full time? Go shopping, out to eat, dmv, in essence everywhere dress representing as a woman?

This like anything and everything I say , it's just my opinion.

[Micki_Finn]

How are any of these questions relevant? As a racial minority I’ve grown up my entire life seeing myself, my family, and other minorities being accused of “self segregation” because we choose to celebrate and embrace our heritage. I’ve seen how that kind of thinking leads to bigoted attitudes.

But it’s just your opinion so you do you.

[sometimes_miss]

Those in the closet are one thing, I don't expect them to know anything. How could they, they live in a fantasy world.
Just because we keep our crossdressing in the closet, doesn't mean we spend our entire life in there, too. I don't share every part of my life with everyone else. I don't think may others, do, either.

[Robertacd]

So Jean, where do you think those that venture out should go?

Where do you go?

I am TG, when I go to the supermarket or the mall "dressed", it's nothing special to me to me.

I am just going to the supermarket or the mall, it's not worth reporting about here unless something unusual happened.

Kind of like being of Latin decent, we call "Mexican food" just "food" in our house.

When we go out to a club, we want to go to a place where we feel comfortable and welcome, that just happens to be "gay bars" at this point.

But my partner and I also go to "straight bars", I have not had any "issues", but I can feel the vibe and prefer a more welcoming atmosphere.

[JenniferMBlack]

Clearly there is danger out there.
Other then that I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Not e everyone is or wants to be full time not everyone is attracted to males. Your life and experiences will vary from others as they are not all on the same path. That doesn't make either right or wrong just different.
As for going to alphabet friendly places who wants to go out for a fun time and worry about if the big guy in the corner has a problem with them. Poeple always gravitate to those who are like minded, even you with your support group.


Roberta I don't know who says Mexican food or Italian food etc etc. I just say tacos pizza burgers what ever. For restaurants I use a name. For them it's a little more important to denote what they offer, if you want tacos don't want to go to a place that sells pizza.

[Tracii G]

Why is it some can't seem to live and let live?

[Robertacd]

Well Jennifer, you missed my point, when we are trying to decide what to eat we usually start with asking "What are you hungry for" and rattle off a bunch of nationalities that have food we enjoy. The actual restaurant and entree' comes much later in the decision making....

But the point I was trying to make is. Just because people aren't posting about every single little outing they go on, it doesn't mean nobody is going out.

[Tracii G]

I don't see the reason to tell what I do on a daily basis.
I do normal things that people do every day.
Being trans doesn't change any of that IMO.

I can see people posting they went out on their first few times out sure we all did.
It was some hurdle we crossed.

[Teresa]

Jean,
I do understand where you're coming from , I'm not going to get into the gay/straight debate but just taking up your basic point of living life totally in the RW without considering labels or what anatomy lies beneath .

I did ask similar question in the NB section a while ago about not buying many more " dressy " clothes because they are mostly worn at my TG social evenings . When we wish to move beyond their confines it doesn't become boring but the situation changes . I love being out in the RW , I love integrating into it .

I do feel you are correct in saying there can be a situation when you're just out of the closet but still under the TG safety net , it can feel like segregation and isolation because you haven't found the confidence to go out and meet the general public and I don't just mean SAs . I also feel it's unfair to condemn people if they just can't find that confidence , I have some lovely friends who may never find it .

Do we fall off the RADAR ? It's up to the individual , I have no intention of falling off it , I want to make my mark as Teresa , I'm gradually getting there .

Tracii,
I don't want to put words in Jean's mouth , maybe she's worded it a little strong , I'm sure you've gone through this transition as you became aware of your needs and became comfortable with them . If the RW doesn't scare us maybe it's a good thing to pass on how it works for us . Not so much " Live and let live !" but life is perfectly livable as a ...... , I leave others to fill in the blank .

[Jean 103]

So maybe I didn't word it right, my intention is to make you think.

I interact with people every day. If I were to post all my goings on it would bore you silly.

The main reason I basically stopped posting is I feel I need to protect my friends. They are just regular people living regular lives.

I didn't start going to a support group because I needed support. I went because I met them at a pride event. I was curious, so I went to a few meetings. I recently started going again. Not sure for how long because I'm already becoming bored with them again, just like this site. They are great people, and for someone in need it would be great. Some of them transitioned years ago, I do admire their dedication. That's just not me.

When I stated going I was living with my boyfriend, an other roommate and his 5 year old daughter. I was the lady of the house. My current roommate asked me about this last night. She wanted to know if I assumed the usual role. Yes I did, I did most of the cooking, shopping. Made sure everyone was cared for. We had friends dropping by all the time.

Teresa , I thought you might get what I'm trying to say.

I'm not saying that how anyone lives is wrong.

So I'll try and give an example using someone you know.

Sherry, I have met her a couple times, with and without her mask.

She has said she has not interest in going out to places like Walmart and such, doing normal mundane things.

That's fine, but she to me leaves the impression that she couldn't, that where she lives is too conservative. I has there over the 4th this year. For a week visiting with my roommate's family with her. Some of the time I was by myself. I went everywhere, yes even Walmart. I had no problems, it was the same as where I live.

I don't have any problems with Sherry or how she is. She is a great person and if she wanted to lose the suit she would do just fine.

I truly admire her for going out the way she does. It really takes a lot of courage.

[Tracii G]

Sherry is quite unique and I admire her for being completely different.

[AllieSF]

I get what you say. One can live in the real world, completely or partially, non "T" versus all "T" or mixed. I choose to live in a mixed environment because my friends are from both groups. I still have all the same trans and non-trans friends and meet new ones regularly. I go to mainstream places to drink, eat and party and none of them would be listed in an LGBTQ+ support article as "T friendly", except for the first "T" friendly wine bar (at that time the only one in San Francisco's famously gay mecca) that I went to in the Castro. I still love it and it is on my regular rotation as a place to start of end the evening by closing the place.

I also live my life openly, full time, among all my friends and new friends that I have met and hope to meet around my suburban community where I live and wherever else I go. In other words I have my own life that includes both and is not centered on one or the other. Friends and acquaintances are the same from both groups, good people with whom I click and where both of us like seeing the other, regularly or once in a while. I don't need just one group to be who I am. That is not better or worse when compared to how someone else lives their own lives. I respect everyone's decisions as their own, since they know how to live their own lives much better than anyone else.

[Vickie_CDTV]

I see it here and with other minorities. Self segregation, isolationism.

Birds of a feather tend to flock together. It is just human nature.


Those in the closet are one thing, I don't expect them to know anything. How could they, they live in a fantasy world.

For some, dressing up is a fantasy and an escape from everyday life. Nothing wrong with a little fantasy.




Acceptance , do you go around as a guy worrying about this? Than why as a woman would you?

Actually, I do. I have always been different, even has a man, and have had a hard time finding others who understand and accept me.


Why all this? Has Jean lost it? No, I'm to the point where others like me fall off the radar. I have become part of the community, live in the real world, have friends, boyfriends.

That's great. You live a conventional woman's life. But why are you criticizing others?

[JenniferMBlack]

Jean it's great you are living the way you want, that's all anyone can really ask for. I don't post of my going out much because it isn't anything special and would be a boring read.
I only know Sherry in any way from reading her posts here. She is a different breed for sure but that is fine if she is happy. I would like to meet her some time as well as other here.
Also I have been going out more and more.doing the mundane life stuff and aside from what clothes I'm wearing its basically the same as it has always been. I'm not into going to bars as I try and stay away from drinking a lot because previous addiction or frequent over use. But have fun in your life do what makes you happy.

[AngelaYVR]

I will be surprised if this thread does not get nuked. In the meantime, remember not to drink and post, ladies.

[Stephanie47]

Jean, back at #12 you indicated you went to a support group because you met them at an event of mutual interest. Now, you're already bored with them. Perhaps that is the entire point of "self segregation." Wearing women's clothing does not create a reason to bond with anyone. "Self segregation" for most people is having a "shared interest." If I want to celebrate my heritage I would go to an event or engage in an activity supporting that heritage. That does not mean as a person of German/Hungarian heritage I avoid other cultures. You'll find my wife and I at Greek festivals, Italian feast days, etc.

Yes, I am an in-home cross dresser. I don't know what "transgender" means anymore to anyone. The term is thrown around so much as to have become confusing to me, let alone to those looking in from the outside. I do not profess to be a "woman born into the wrong body." I have compassion for those who are struggling with identity issues. As many have said on this thread and many others just because a person is not assault verbally or physically does not confer acceptance.

I have to digress a little. I have three personal family and friend who have sons or daughters struggling with these issues. It is a tough road to follow. A former friend (deceased) has a grandson who struggled and finally came out as transgender, MtF, in high school because he could not take it any more. He had to express himself. Well, he was run out of his local high school by male bullies. Tossed aside like a pierce of garbage. No faculty intervention. The child grandfather came to accept him, but, could not understand it.

My wife's cousin has a daughter who is transitioning to a male. From birth this child associated her being as male. No nurturing involved. That is how the child perceived herself.

My brother's granddaughter from birth has aligned herself with male activities. Again, no nurturing. As she has gotten older (post high school) she has become more confident in bucking the system.

These children have to bear the burden of not being accepted for who they are. Where do these children go if nobody is going to really accepted them? Sure, they may be accepted or tolerated at work. But, are they going to be accepted by the general population? Are they going to be routinely invited to a neighbor's house for Sunday dinner? I think not. Then, what is the option? Self segregation? Hanging out with people who are of a similar mind? This country thinks it is an open society. Well, it is not as open as people make it out to be.

Unlike these three people I know I do not have to "segregate" my self. Fortunately, I feel fine as a male and act in that role. I really cannot fault people for hanging out with like minded individuals.

By the way have you ever watched what happens when a person does put on the personna of any minority group, whether it be race, religion, physical stature (donning the suit of an overweight person), sexuality, etc. The person gets an eye opening view of how others live.

I hope I made my point.

[NjJamie]

Jean, sorry to read about the 'failure' to connect with your friend and better luck with the next one, and there will be a next! I've read all the responses and though a few rough edges were exposed, I'm very glad there is a discussion and hopefully everyone is able to build a better self-image from the effort. With that said, I'm looking forward to watching the roast of Alec Baldwin, caught a few clips and comments

of Caitlyn Jenner on the Howard Stern show, can only imagine how funny the whole event was, perhaps that will be the subject of a new thread!

[docrobbysherry]

---------------------------------
I don't have any problems with Sherry or how she is. She is a great person and if she wanted to lose the suit she would do just fine.
----------------------
I think u have pretty good handle on me, Jean. But, I've heard countless comments like yours about, "-- being ok with me without my suit and my mask."
Because my back ground is so different from practically everyone else's here, I can best explain it this way:

My going out without a female figure and/or mask is like the average CD going out without their wig, make up, and forms! At least, that's how I feel when I'm out. I don't like the way I look and I feel like a fraud!:doh:
So, when muggles give me the eye? That only multiplies my discomfort when out dressed. :sad:

On a note u may find interesting, Jean? Early on I went to a couple of private T gatherings in drab. (Because I felt more authentic and comfortable dressed that way then dressed without masks.) I had met most of the girls there at earlier T club events. All were pretty friendly meeting me dressed sans prosthesis and mask at the club.:hugs:
But, they avoided me like the plague when I showed up in drab!:eek:

[Jean 103]

Sherry, I do understand how you feel.

It is why I don't like to go out without makeup and dressed how I like.

Jamie, I'm fine , I have two other boyfriends. One kept texting me tonight. I'll see him tomorrow after work.

Stephanie, it was a few year ago, I went to that pride event to show my support. I met a couple members from the group there at their booth. I attended the group for awhile. Most are great, but it is a support group not a social group. As I don't need them I find it a bit boring, the meetings run for two hours. It is a thirty minute drive each way for me.

One night after the meeting I asked the moderator if she knew about a new gay club that had opened there. She looked at me and said "we don't go to bars". They meet at the LGBT community center. I get announcements all the time about events they are hoisting. I didn't tell her I was asking for my friend who is gay. This is one of the reasons I stopped going.

I lived in Bend for ten years. So I do understand how it is where you live.

I have an option, find true friends. I know trans men. There is a few in group. One I was thinking of trying to become friends with but I really don't have the time.

I don't go to bars much anymore. One night I'm at the bar, this girl comes up to me . She tells me how much she supports me that that if anyone tries to mess with me she will protect me. She than tells me that she wants to be a man. She also tells me that her friends don't want her to transition. I can tell that they don't want her talking to me. They come and take her away. I haven't seen her sense.

I have protected status at the bar. If anyone messes with me the bouncer will through them out, without me saying anything. I can take care of myself, but I don't have to.

There are some that don't like it. They have been told that they can go somewhere else.

I have never asked for this, they are just good people and they like me.

[faltenrock]

I do understand that discussion and where Jean is coming from.

However, as a straight CD, I do everything I WANT to do while dressed (or as a guy).
There is no difference for me, except, I'm normally on my own when out dressed. My wife doesn't share that with me.
I go to gay and TG friendly places, because I found that there is much tolerance.
At the same time, I go to any places a man or woman would go to. I also do 'normal' things and visit 'normal' places - anyone would go to. I visit museums, take public transportation, go to the movies etc...

I know, all this is very different for those of us who stay inside and hidden from the world, there is no problem with that.

[GaleWarning]

Much is made of the reluctance of the general public to accept the members of our community as normal, everyday people.

This is why I find it so sad that there are members within our community who seem to find it difficult to accept even their own kind.

And we are not even talking tolerance in this instance!

:sad:

[Teresa]

Faltenrock ,
I find the general public in tne RW less critical and outspoken than from within the community , I personally have had more harsh comments . The main problem being some only dress for those few hours , they may look like women but talk very much like men , which is the point GaleWarning made . I also agree with the comment about the level of acceptance from the general public and the relutance some members have in accepting it . To call it BS is possibly a little too strong but it really is a case of dressing approriately and behaving as a woman would if you want to integrate . I've now been to the second session of my painting group , there were more new faces as well as some old friends , I can honestly say it's as if the male part of me never existed .

[Asew]

I think everyone has a different needs and different path leading to different levels of being out. Some are in the closet, some are out to a couple people, some are out to these letter friendly events and places, and some are out to the real world (and can be a mix of these too). At any of these levels you can be segregated and isolated. You can be out in the real world with no friends and keeping to yourself under the guise of being safer and feel even more isolated than going out to a trans friendly event where you come more out of your shell (I definitely feel this sometimes).

And if you are comparing this to other minorities, we are in a unique situation in that we can take off the outer layer and fake being "normal" whereas many other minorities cannot change their race, ethnicity, sex, etc. But in some ways that can make it more isolating since we can be fake too much and it takes it toll too.

[Alice Torn]

Allie, That is in San Fran. No problems to go full time there. Try small midwestern or southern redneck small towns, I t would not be the same at all.

[kayla_bayarea]

I understand the point Jean is trying to make and agree with the sentiment. I also understand why some don't venture outside the confines of trans-centric gathering places. I am making a distinction between trans-centric and trans "friendly" for a reason which I will get to in a minute.

For those members who are CDs because of a fetish or are just hobbyists then it makes sense to just get together with other CDs and only go to CD events. Since the idea of just dressing up in female clothing and related accoutrements is enough to be exciting for some I can see how those gatherings can be entertaining to them. It would be no different than Trekkies attending Star Trek conventions all the time and stamp collectors going to Philatelic Society meetings. That common interest is what bonds them together.

However, I really do not understand at all why some people whose goal is to emulate a female a much as possible only goes to trans events and venues. Those who are in a DADT relationship might have problems venturing out. That's understood. For others, after going to a few TG meetings and events to ease their way into the outside world I don't understand the appeal of going back to them for social reasons (unless again, you are a hobbyist/fetishist like I mentioned above). This is how members get all these whacked out ideas about how females really act, think, walk, dress, etc. There is no reality check because they are only talking to other trans/CDs and never venturing outside of those venues. I find those all those events really boring and can't understand how standing around with a bunch of CDs is entertaining at all. I don't share any interests with the vast majority of CDs and trans people I have met. Hanging out with them would make no sense at all for me.

If you're really trying to enhance your feminine presentation then you should be hanging out with women more, not just CDs. Members will spend all this money on fancy evening clothes and get makeovers just to attend some T event and never anywhere else. Instead, there are tons of other places that are good excuses to get all dolled up for that actually have entertainment value and not just somewhere to walk around cross-dressed.

Back to the point of trans-centric vs trans friendly. A place doesn't have to be LGBT associated or identified to be trans friendly. It's really annoying when people start using the term "muggle" in the context in which they are referring. Perhaps people are trying to be cute when using the term but it ends up creating an automatic us vs them mentality. CDs and trans people do not have special gifts and abilities just because they are a CD/trans. The world of Harry Potter did not refer to people as muggles just because they did not understand wizards. So again, stop thinking that you have something innately unique about you and sets you apart from those who do not crossdress. It's a really stupid mentality and falsely creates a barrier with others in the world when there wasn't one in the first place because people just don't care.

[Crissy 107]

Kayla, You sound angry, and why are you here hanging out with CD’s and Trans people?

[Jean 103]

Crissy I think Kayla does get what I'm trying to say.

I'm not mad or angry and I'm not saying that how anyone lives their life is wrong.

It does sound harsh when you put it into words.

I didn't expect that everyone would understand.

Everyone is different and I'm no exception.

I know that their are few that can follow my path. And quite frankly I wouldn't want anyone to.

It is not easy and it will turn your life upside down. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

The fact is we are different.

I have found that most people can tolerate and/or accept it if you give them a chance.

I'm very much aware of the haters, and I have had to deal with them, but I'm not going to let them control my life.

But this is just part of life, haters that is. Maybe someday there will be a world without hate.

John Lennon wrote a song about this called Imagine

[Teresa]

Kayla,
Just a couple of points I'd like to pick up on , I admit going to social groups does have the overtones of your comments but like the forum it is sometimes the only way of keeping in touch with some good friends , maybe you were a little harsh with your comments .

I do have respect for the general public , to me it's par for the course if you want to integrate totally in the RW . I've never gone along with the " Muggles " expression but I'm not sure if I agree with you on not being something a little special OK not unique but there will always be that element that sets us apart but in a good way . There's nothing we can do about our mix of traits but I feel people do find us intriguing , enigmatic if you like .

Jean,
I agree it can turn you life upsidedown , it takes time to find a balance and take out of your life the parts that upend it . Day by day I just move into a better place , I still feel the bottom line is belief in yourself .