The Mostly False Perception that Crossdressers are Gay

[Lacy PJs]

It was hard to come up with a title for this thread because I fully realize that indeed, some crossdressers are gay but that certainly isn't the majority of us if we are to believe numerous studies & surveys on the subject. But still, that seems to be the immediate conclusion most people come to when they first learn of a person who crossdresses.

Things are indeed changing in society today and there is a slow but growing acceptance of homosexuality as a legitimate lifestyle. That being said, there is still a seemingly large majority of people who are still in the non-tolerant/non-accepting camp. I wonder if this is why crossdressing is still not even close to an accepted lifestyle in our society?

In a lot of the stories posted here, when a CD finally admits to his wife/SO that he is a crossdresser, in many cases, the first question is, "Are you gay?" In literature, it is usually the same way; crossdressers are portrayed as being gay. We seldom see a movie or read a story where the CD is 100% male except for the clothing he chooses to wear; it's almost always that he wants to be with another man and somehow dressing that way gets him closer to what he really wants.

It seems to me that because there is still a large segment of our population that will not accept homosexuality, they won't accept CDs either because of this false notion. Given that, I'm not sure how we can change those perceptions unless it's just one person at a time. And in many cases, that starts with our spouse or SO.

Anyone else have any thoughts on the subject?

Lacy PJs

[Micki_Finn]

I feel like this post would have been super relevant like 15 years ago. I think we are much farther along to acceptance of gay and trans people than you think. Just look at the Emmys last night. Billy porter wins best actor, Ru Paul’s Drag Race won for best competition show or something like that. Sure there’s a large segment of people that don’t accept homosexuality. There’s also a large segment of people who don’t accept minorities still either, but that isn’t representative of society as a whole. You can’t jist look at individuals because there will always be outliers and extremists. You have to look at the culture as a whole, and as a whole we are much more enlightened than we were.

[Robertacd]

Simple minds believe that women look, dress, and act the way they do for the sole purpose of attracting a man.

Therefore the only reason a man would dress like a woman is to attract men.

Believe me, I have answered the "But wait? What? You are still atracted women? How does that work?" Question more than once.

[carhill2mn]

It seems that a great many people cannot understand that we like to present and act like women without there being some sexual reason. I just like how I look and feel when I am wearing pretty clothes, shoes, jewelry and makeup. I also enjoy being treated as a lady!

[Teresa]

Lacy,
I'm inclined to agree with Micki , it is a dated assumption . All the time I've been out in the RW not one person has asked the question or made the obvious camp gestures . As far a I can see the non-tolerant camp are in the minority .

While I accept we all crossdress , I've never used that label and again no one has said , " Oh you're a crossdresser !" Being TG has become a more common way of life and lets not forget the number of F/M is a catching the M/F community up very rapidly , some clinics now have a 50-50 split , the point being M/F are possibly more obvious .

Most people are intelligent enough to segregate the TG needs from homosexual needs , I thought it would pose me a problem when being out in the RW with other members of the TG community but the public just hasn't responded the way I feared . Personally I'm not gay but some of my TG friends are BI , I have light hearted banter with them but they know it's not my scene . ( As Mararet Thatcher famously said , " The lady is not for turning !" OK it was said with a totally different meaning but quite a relevant quote for me .)

[Allisa]

First who cares what other people think. If someone thinks I'm gay and still accepts/tolerates me and they do not discriminate against me, no foul, no harm. If one moves about in the RW they must develop thick skin and realize change takes time, I believe this misconception will never be eradicated.

[jennifer0918]

The question "wait you are still attracted to woman? How does that work?" I get that a lot from trans woman and younger cd's. Most cis woman are okay with it and understand it.

[kimdl93]

I don?t believe that the spurious association with homosexuality or homophobia itself are the only obstacles to greater individual or societal tolerance of transgender people. I think many people just react negatively to things they don?t understand....as if somehow ?it? might rub off. Then there?s the reactionary element of society. Opposition to change...even tho ?we? have always existed, the reactionary element of society wishes that we would be invisible...something they could either ignore or deride, rather than acknowledge.

re: “you’re attracted to women? How does that work?” I’ve had several conversations with gay men who just could not get it. Oddly, gay and cis women got it. Maybe its just a guy thing to not understand.

[Bobbi46]

There is and will be for the foreseeable future the uninformed that will believe a crossdresser or whatever has to be gay? since coming out I have been asked that very question "are you gay" my reply each and every time has been "no" but along the way I have lost a friend who I thought would accept me as before but no his response was " I would rather you did not come to my house dressed" I am dressed every day! result? I don't go to his house and we are no longer friends, reinforced this last coffee morning when he could hardly bring himself to speak let alone look at me, his loss not mine.
There will always be the non believers and non accepters those are the ones who we will never convert

[CynthiaD]

I’ve told this story before, but I think it’s worth repeating. There were two men that I knew were homosexual back in the small town where I grew up. One was extremely masculine, but made no secret of his homosexuality. He often talked about the men he wanted to have sex with. He was accepted as just one of the guys. The other was somewhat effeminate, and was the subject of constant derision.

I also remember gay men, near the beginning of the gay movement, saying over and over, “We don’t want to be women ...”

It makes me wonder if homosexuality was ever the real issue. Perhaps it was the idea of crossing gender lines that was always the issue. Of course I’m exaggerating to make a point, but it explains why the public finds it easier to accept the gay lifestyle than it does to accept us. Just thinking.

[Rachael Leigh]

That perception is most likely never going to change. It?s part of how many see us and like has been said who cares
Also if Ru Paul?s show was a winner last night well hate to break it to you but that will just reenforce that concept consider
the majority on that show are most definitely gay. So no that show does us trans folk and straight CDs any favors
We are who we are just get out there and be you no matter how you love

[MarinaTwelve200]

I think the problem is, when we were kids growing up, "Queers" or "Gays" were DEFINED to us as boys/Men "who thought they were women" or "Who wanted to be women", rather than the proper definition , men who were sexually attracted to other men.---A big difference, Many Adults STILL believe the kid's Definition, even today-----It's why us CD ers get confused with or accused of being "Gay" (Along with Transsexuals) . Indeed, Most Gays I know, are NOT turned on by women, or want to look like them.------Indeed, it is really hard to "understand" the few who DO dress like women, unless it's some sort of a "Strategy" to attract partners.-----I think that what the DRIVES to CD are may not be related to sexuality at all, but something else. Escapism, identity or other personality factors.

[AngelaYVR]

I am certain that most people I interact with would assume I am attracted to men (and also full time). Then again, the vast majority of CDs I have met claim to be bi.

[Ressie]

Everyone seems to see things thru their own lens made of of personal experiences. A lot of that has to do with where one lives but it still boils down to personal experiences. West Hollywood is much different than West Ohio yet any two of us could live in the same town and have completely different experiences, good or bad. As a result, we might come up with different conclusions.

[Micki_Finn]

Rachel, I was actually addressing the OPs entire second paragraph which was about acceptance of homosexuality in general, and a TV show depicting homosexual men winning a major award is quite relevant as a marker of societal acceptance, which was my entire point.

[Rachael Leigh]

Rachel, I was actually addressing the OPs entire second paragraph which was about acceptance of homosexuality in general, and a TV show depicting homosexual men winning a major award is quite relevant as a marker of societal acceptance, which was my entire point.

I hardly think a Hollywood awards show giving an award to a show that many would find offensive including some in the trans community will help mainstream our community in anyway
We will have to agree to disagree here

[Tracii G]

Of all the gay people I know personally and associate with I am the only one that dresses or presents as female.
I am talking about 75 to 80 people and all think I am the odd one.
Gay men generally don't want to get into a relationship with a gay trans person because they want a guy not a guy that wants to look like a girl.
They really don't understand the whole "trans" thing but are tolerant to me at least.

P.S.
Hollywood is not what it used to be and most people don't give a rats behind what actors think these days.
Of course Hollywood actors "think" they are so much better than the rest of us.
That group is more messed up than the rest of society.

[Teresa]

Jennifer,
" Wait you are still attracted to women , how does that work ?"

From my personal point of view I feel my male side is overlaid with my female side , I'm more comfortable with my female side but both sides feel attracted to women . There is no attraction at all to men . Since coming out full time I've had more hugs and kisses from women as Teresa , I can only assume some feel safe and not threatened and some are attracted to me but I can't truthfully answer as what . Do they still see the underlying male or or they attracted to me as a female , it doesn't concern me that much, I just enjoy that contact for whatever reason .

Ressie may have a point but again I'm seeing differences in the replies between the US members and the UK members . What I am beginning to see is the same acceptance to the TG community as has happenend with the gay community .

Angela,
In the members of the TG groups I know the minority are BI , very few appear to be totally gay but then I find it's mainly the BI ones that talk about their preferences whereas the gay and straight members don't .

[Lacey86]

When I was in college (pretty conservative area) I think this was roughly 8 years ago. I took a health class that covered basic sexuality. The teacher included a question in a quiz, exam, and final exam. The question essentially said with multiple choice answers, the average crossdresser is...
And the correct answer was hetero sexual men, and I believe it even said married, but I could be mistaken. One of the other 4 choices was always homosexual. This sparked a conversation in the class as the answer surprised a few people. And having it show up again on later exams ensured people would remember it. It was small but I really appreciated that I felt like I had some small acknowledgment, even though I'm not out. I wonder if the Prof knew a crossdresser or what prompted her to keep that question across 3 exams/quizzes. Either way I was glad she did as it sparked a conversation among people around me and the misconceptions that can be associated with crossdressing.

[Tracii G]

Teresa the fact women give you hugs and such and why they don't feel threatened is "because" they assume you are gay.
Its ingrained so deep in society they haven't let that way of thinking go.
You may have said I am not gay but they may think no that can't be right he just won't admit it.
I have been thru that more than a few times.

[Teresa]

Tracii,
I've never been asked the question but some of those contacts with women have come from ones that know my background as a husband and father . Again I do feel it shows a difference in thinking between out two countries , being TG does not equate to being gay , in fact it was interesting to read Lacey's comment #19 . The only problem I see is what some men are thinking when they won't make eye contact .

[Tracii G]

The no eye contact thing I think is they are dealing with their own guilt.
I have had that happen a few times.

[nvlady]

Why would lesbians wear pretty clothes?

[Aunt Kelly]

Simple minds believe that women look, dress, and act the way they do for the sole purpose of attracting a man.

Therefore the only reason a man would dress like a woman is to attract men.

Believe me, I have answered the "But wait? What? You are still atracted women? How does that work?" Question more than once.

That's it, in a nutshell. There are still a lot of ignorant people out there. I do not mean to sound condescending, but it's a simple truth - they just don't know any better. Yes, it's changing, but by bit, but Caitlyn Jenner and Ru Paul have a lot more work to do before a real understanding of TG people is common.

[Jean 103]

The wife /SO thing is different. This is someone you entered into a contract with, not the same as the general public.

Most people likely think I'm gay, except for those who know me. I have a boyfriend, he recently said to me, "you don't think of yourself as gay because you see yourself as a women?", Me "yes".

I find that it is easier to just not address this and just live my life. If I'm the only CD/TG person that someone knows, (which isn't likely), for me to tell them that most are not gay, just doesn't sound true. I have but don't seem to get into these conversations anymore, as I'm not alone much anymore.

Women hug and touch, this is something that for me took some getting used to. Some close guy friends will hug me too, as they all see me as a women. These are not random people, they are friends, they know me and I know them. Still there are some that will hug me on first meeting, I always let them make the first move.

[BettyMorgan]

Some of the quotes here are so interesting....

"Things are indeed changing in society today and there is a slow but growing acceptance of homosexuality as a legitimate lifestyle. "
OK, let me stop you here. Being gay is NOT a lifestyle. Full-time RVing is a lifestyle, but sexual orientation (gay or otherwise) is not. Please people, if you find someone stuck in the 70s, tell them that sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression are different and separate. And if you are heterosexual, has anyone ever said to, "I see you have a fondness for women. How's that heterosexual lifestyle working for you?" Probably not.


"Why would lesbians wear pretty clothes?"
Seriously? Lesbians, like anyone else, can wear whatever they want. In fact, if a trans man decides to wear sexy nightgown to bed one night, or a trans woman decides to wear a flannel shirt and pants to work one day, it does not change how trans they are. Gender expression does NOT change or impact your sexual orientation. This goes back to the response some people give when they hear you are a cross dresser - "Hey, are you gay now?" There is no uniform for a sexual orientation despite stereotypes you may hear of.


"Yes, it's changing, but by bit, but Caitlyn Jenner and Ru Paul have a lot more work to do before a real understanding of TG people is common."
No, despite their entertainment value, please don't point to these people as two who in any way represent, speak for, or educate about the trans community. Please. Don't. They ooze with privilege that the majority of trans women don't benefit from.


Even the title of the this thread. "The Mostly False Perception that Crossdressers are Gay" is odd.
Crossdressers can be gay. They can also be hetero, bi-sexual, and even asexual. People who jump to the conclusion that crossdressers are gay have a lack of a basic understanding of sexual orientation, gender identity and expression. It would be great if they learned some science.

[Robertacd]

Why would lesbians wear pretty clothes?

Why wouldn't they?

[ReineD]

The human species survives fundamentally because of sex. We may not talk about it a lot in our day-to-day lives and some pockets of our societies are downright puritanical. Of course as we age it becomes less important, but still sex is at the core of who we are. It has to be. And it drives the beauty and fashion industry. Why do you think that women want to look pretty and men want to look virile. Why do they use all those gorgeous female or virile male models to sell us all kinds of stuff.

And so when a man puts on the things that women put on in order to attract men, the assumption is that he wants what she wants - men. Women don't put that stuff on when they're just hanging out together.

Quick story: a friend transitioned about 7 years ago. She takes hormones but I don't know if she has had SRS. She recently posted a pic on facebook about her weekend getaway at a remote cabin (in the woods by a lake) with 6-7 GGs. Everyone was in grubby T-shirts, jeans, no makeup, etc. My friend was the only one all made up, with jewelry, a plunging neckline showing her cleavage, and shorts. Why. All the comments (there were lots from all the tagged GG's friends) had to do with what fun they must all be having, except my friend's 2 male friends. They commented on her appearance. The GGs in the pic and those commenting didn't give two hoots about makeup and cleavage, out in the middle of nowhere with no males around. lol. Why did my friend feel she needed to look sexually appealing. I don't get it, honestly.

Do you see why many people think that CDs/TGs/TSs are attracted to men? That said, I should hope that most people aren't as prejudiced against gay men as 30-40 years ago. But even if they think homosexuality is no big deal, they may still think that it is the fundamental motive for a birth-male who presents as a female.

[Teresa]

Reine,
I know the feeling , for TGs it's much harder to tone it down , personally it's removing all traces of the man , women don't have shaving shadow so don't need makeup in the same way . Women know they have breasts so don't need to show it , a TG again is trying to prove something , the bottom line is learning not to overdo it , to TGs being natural means reverting to the male mode .

[GaleWarning]

I just enjoy wearing the clothes.
Can't be bothered with the introspection.

[Stephanie47]

Women Who Sport a Close (Butch) Hair Style are Lesbians

Isn't it somewhat similar. I know many women who have had to listen to that crap because their hair was short. My wife, when she was recovering from chemotherapy, had short hair as it was growing in. She did over hear some rude comment coming from another woman shopper about it. My wife tore her an new arsehole.

Too many people are ignorant. Too many people do not want to be educated. They enjoy their blissful ignorance. They would also flunk Logic 101 in college. When I was a teenager back in the 1960's men who wore women's clothing were labeled homosexuals. Nobody thought otherwise with the exception of those cross dressers who weren't. To most it was a logical conclusion, if a man wore women's clothing he wanted to go the distance and have sex with a man. Men and women are wired to have sex. It is a natural act. It is procreation. Natural women use visual enhancements to attract men. It's plumage as in the animal world. Society has a vested interest in having men and women interacting and producing little people to replenish the herd.

Yes, just about every women is going to ask the question of her man, "Are you gay?" because the plumage a cross dresser wears is actually geared to attract men. I cannot fault a woman to ask that question. My wife one time said if a woman were to come after me and try to woo me away from her, she would know how to fight. But, if a man were to try to do the same, she would not know what to do. How does a woman compete for her husband, when her husband turns out to be a closeted homosexual? She can't. And, why would she? It's tough to convince a woman that wearing women's clothing does not automatically equate to homosexuality.

Of course the society input does not help the situation either. Many times it affirms the perception.

What of men who seek out cross dressing men and transwomen for sexual encounters? What is their perception? And, what is the perception of society?

[Ressie]

These are just assumptions. Everyone makes assumptions - often that are completely wrong. Just assume that a lot of people will think you're gay when you're en femme. It's not like it's their fault that they think this.

[LilSissyStevie]

Aw, come on, admit it. It's pretty gay:heehee:. Actually, I've struggled with my sexuality more than with gender. My first orgasm was to a fantasy of having gay sex while crossdressed. So, excuse me for thinking there might be a connection between the two. My problem is that I'm just not attracted to men outside of fantasy. Even in the fantasy the men are faceless abstractions rather than actual people to whom I would be attracted. The focus isn't on them, it's on myself as a fairy. Everything would have been so much easier if I really was attracted to men but I can't even force myself to like them. So, I'm kind of stuck in a sexual no man's land (is that a pun?)

It cracks me up how many CDs will vehemently deny being gay (heaven forbid!) but will readily admit to bisexuality. Yet bisexuality just means you are gay sometimes and straight sometimes or maybe even at the same time if you can get a little group action going. I will admit that I'm not really straight but I'm not really gay either. I'm queer which is just a category for all the misfit toys.

[Marianne S]

Hi Lacy,

There are some good comments on your thread, but when it comes to answering your fundamental question, it seems to me that everyone so far has missed the obvious. Why do people assume that any man who crossdresses is gay? Yes, I'm sure there's more than one reason, but the main reason of all has to be that people form their opinions based on what is visible to them!

Take the matter of gay men themselves as an example. Why do people assume that gay men are "effeminate"? Many gay men--probably a majority for all I know--appear just like any straight man, and I'm sure many are downright macho, possibly taking a kind of autoerotic pleasure in their own hypermasculinity. But ordinary people would never identify them as "gay." The only gay men people notice are those who are visibly effeminate in some way--hence their misguided assumption that "gay men are effeminate," and their identification of male gayness with "femininity."

The same is true of male-to-female crossdressers. A large majority of us, including me, are heterosexual--I'm told it's seventy percent at least (if anyone has any different information I'll be interested to hear it)--but how visible are we to the public? Many of us are hidden in the closet, so they never see us! What's more, if we do go out in public en femme, most of us do our best to "pass" as women! That's something we yearn to achieve! And as far as we succeed in that endeavor, we're not noticed by the public as "crossdressing men." In their minds we might as well not exist!

Who are the crossdressers they do notice? Well, it's the drag queens! It's the flamboyant, "in-your-face" crossdressers who "put on a show" for the public, who want to be noticed! It's "Hey, look at us, we're Here and we're Queer!" It's men like Ru Paul, who was mentioned by Micki Finn. And they, like Ru Paul, typically are gay! So when the only crossdressers that the public are chiefly exposed to are in fact gay, we can hardly blame people for making the assumptions they do.

I wish there were a fix for this, but I can't think of one offhand. I suppose we need more education and more "obvious" crossdressers out on the streets, with T-shirts and placards reading "I am straight, just like you." But who wants to volunteer for that job? ;)

[Tracii G]

I would say 70% of the gay men I know are quite manly.
One is a policeman several are firefighters, two are high schools sports coaches.
The other 30% well a few are doctors, one is a financial advisor.another is a Delta airline pilot for example.
None of them are effeminate at all.
Of course some are but not the pushy in your face type effeminate like you speak of.Those kind are aggravating sometimes.
In my group I think only 3 of us are actually trans and only one or two have even CD'd before.
CDing has nothing to do with being gay we all know that but the public no matter how much you tell them it just doesn't compute in their head.
I keep my self toned down but its pretty obvious I am gay.

[Jodie_Lynn]

Straight. Gay. Bisexual. Pansexual. Asexual. Non-binary, genderfluid, genderqueer. White. Black. Yellow. Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Atheist.


These are all just convenient labels that people can stick onto other people, so that they can classify them in their head.

The labels allow people to put others into a preconceived, presupposed category so that they don't have to think about that person as a person.

Oh, he's gay? That means he... ( insert perceptions about gays here )

Oh, she's black? That means... ( insert perceptions about blacks here )

Most people have perceptions about other groups, not based on real life experience, but rather on what they have been told, or taught to think about those groups.

Even within this thread, I see sweeping generalizations about groups, when everyone here should realize that no two members of this forum share the exact same path, motivations, drives, or experiences. Yes, we have lots of similarities, but overall, we are all clumped under the CD/TG umbrella.

So it is highly amusing to see some of the members here exhibit the same sort of myopic stereotyping of other groups.

[Tracii G]

I see that a lot here too Jodi and when you actually say it they all fly out of the wood work and demonize the one that said it. Tolerant huh?

[Jodie_Lynn]

Tracii, I'm all set for the demonizing. :devil:

[docrobbysherry]

I'm with u on this one Teresa! :thumbsup:

I've met so many T's in the last 10 years! Too many to count. I can't recall many, (or any), confessing to being gay. But, quite a few say they r bi. And, many of those bi's only r interested in trans MtoF males!

I've read a number of posts here saying the % of gay trans is about the same as in regular male population.

But, what about bi trans? And, those that only "date" other T's? I'm guessing it's a very high % compared to % of T's who r gay!?:eek:

[Rogina B]

I've met so many T's in the last 10 years! Too many to count. I can't recall many, (or any), confessing to being gay. But, quite a few say they r bi. And, many of those bi's only r interested in trans MtoF males
Ever been with a "bear" ??? Perhaps Tracii knows where I am going with this.. Gay males run from the over masculine to the feminine for sure.....Some are so masculine that they see no need to take care of them selves in many ways. Trans people are a lot better group to play with as they do take care of themselves....

[MonicaPVD]

No.
One.
Cares.

[Alice Torn]

Marrianne, I agree very much with your post

[LilSissyStevie]

I've met so many T's in the last 10 years! Too many to count. I can't recall many, (or any), confessing to being gay. But, quite a few say they r bi. And, many of those bi's only r interested in trans MtoF males!

I suspect that people say they are bi because somehow they think it means not gay. Yet bi just mean gay but not exclusively so or it can mean not exclusively straight. Six of one or half dozen of the other. The writer Gore Vidal used to say that there are no homosexual people only homosexual acts. Looking at it that way there is a lot more gay going on than there are people that identify as gay. Dr. Ray Blanchard, the guy that coined the term "autogynephilia" (AGP) also came up with the ten dollar term "gynandromorphophilia" (GAMP) to describe those who are attracted to MTFs. That would include both "chasers" and MTFs who are attracted to other MTFs. GAMPs, by his reckoning, are outside the bi/gay/straight paradigm. Like AGP, it's it's own sexual orientation. Personally, I could only be attracted to MTFs under two conditions: They were totally convincing as GGs with the addition of one part and they were tops. I've never met anyone like that in real life and the closest thing in fantasy would be what the Japanese call Futanari. GGs with detachable parts are just as good and they exist. Maybe that's just a variation on GAMP. I don't really know or care to tell the truth. The muggles just divide the world into people who are straight like them and everyone else is gay. That puts me in the gay camp by their reasoning. They don't care about our little distinctions and why should they?

[jacques]

hello Lacy,
you are correct that it is a false perception and that bigotry is on the decline in society.
But, I think that crossdressing is the last taboo. Society can understand if some people are attracted to their own sex. Society can understand if some people wish to change their sex. But wearing the clothes of the other sex - if you read many of the threads in this group you will see that most of us do not know why we do it - so how can we explain it to others?
luv J

[Teresa]

Jodi/Tracii,
I feel much of what we live with in the West is the product of media presentation , they love stereotypes . As soon as censorship allowed it , it started to happen , an effeminate man had to be gay , the first Cders featured had to be gay and so on . OK this gave rise to clubs and bars catering for this emerging freedom , maybe it's why the US has more gay bars , the movies had a greater influence in the US .

We may criticise the media but it has also opened up the whole scene for the LGBTQ community , in the UK I do feel it's now working in our favour now some of the old sterotypes are being dropped . Factual programs are showing the TG commuity as a separate enitity from the LG community , personally I feel it needed to happen , being trans does not mean being gay .

Jacques,
I'm wondering if the act and label of crossdressing is taboo but not being TG .

To some people being told the husband / male partner wears their female partners clothes is creepy and weird . To be told he's been to counselling and has been diagnosed as TG isn't considerd in the same light even though he still wears his partners clothes .

[Tracii G]

Rogina funny you mentioned the "bears" and yes I know of a few.
None personally tho'.
There are just so many variations in the gay world just as there is in the regular world.

[Jodie_Lynn]

No.
One.
Cares.

So insightful! We can just shut this thread down, Monica has spoken!

So sad if this distracts from the current "My favorite panty" thread, but this is a valid and appropriate subject regarding how the non-CD/TG world see the community.

It is a somewhat logical assumption to think that a male who dresses in feminine attire is doing so to attract another male. especially since males are still in the catbird seat for the most part. Why else would a man choose or desire, to represent as, what many people think, is the 'second class' sex? Hell, in some parts of the world, the family goat has a higher social standing than a woman!

I am NOT stating that all crossdressers are gay, have gay tendencies, or are even bisexual. But the majority of the muggle world see it a little differently.

And it is something that needs to be discussed. Both amongst ourselves, and the uninitiated world at large.

[Ressie]

I suspect that people say they are bi because somehow they think it means not gay. Yet bi just mean gay but not exclusively so or it can mean not exclusively straight. Six of one or half dozen of the other. The writer Gore Vidal used to say that there are no homosexual people only homosexual acts. Looking at it that way there is a lot more gay going on than there are people that identify as gay.

I'm seeing a lot of men on other websites identifying as "Straight" but they're looking for action with CDs or with other men. It seems they're just in search of getting their rocks off with whoever. Maybe they're in denial that they're really bisexual or...

So how many crossdressers out there say they're straight but have either engaged in homosexual activity - or at least fantasized about it?

[sometimes_miss]

Why would lesbians wear pretty clothes?
Perhaps they like feeling pretty. But you'd have to ask the particular one, who does go through all the trouble to look great. Then again, if you're a woman, trying to attract someone who is attracted to women, what better way than to emphasize everything beautiful about yourself?

And so when a man puts on the things that women put on in order to attract men, the assumption is that he wants what she wants - men.
^this seems to be forgotten, no matter how many times it is said.

Why did my friend feel she needed to look sexually appealing. I don't get it, honestly.
She wore what she wore, to feel good about herself. We each may interpret what feels comfy to wear, in a different way. Some prefer physical comfort, some prefer the psychological comfort of wearing what we think we should be wearing, along with all the tactile, visual, auditory, and perhaps even olfactory clues we desire.

Everything would have been so much easier if I really was attracted to men but I can't even force myself to like them.
Same here.

So, I'm kind of stuck in a sexual no man's land (is that a pun?)
Seems to be a pretty big 'land'.

[Leelou]

Lacy,
I'm inclined to agree with Micki , it is a dated assumption . All the time I've been out in the RW not one person has asked the question or made the obvious camp gestures . As far a I can see the non-tolerant camp are in the minority .

While I accept we all crossdress , I've never used that label and again no one has said , " Oh you're a crossdresser !" Being TG has become a more common way of life and lets not forget the number of F/M is a catching the M/F community up very rapidly , some clinics now have a 50-50 split , the point being M/F are possibly more obvious .

Most people are intelligent enough to segregate the TG needs from homosexual needs , I thought it would pose me a problem when being out in the RW with other members of the TG community but the public just hasn't responded the way I feared . Personally I'm not gay but some of my TG friends are BI , I have light hearted banter with them but they know it's not my scene . ( As Mararet Thatcher famously said , " The lady is not for turning !" OK it was said with a totally different meaning but quite a relevant quote for me .)

I also agree with Micki, this is a dated assumption. I've brought up Ann Landers before, but I knew in the 70's that most crossdressers were straight and many were married with kids. There is nothing new under the sun.

[Tracii G]

Good point Jodie

[Teresa]

Jodie,
I'm sorry but I still don't agree , modern thinking has moved on , at least in the UK they don't associate one with the other , eventhough we come under the LGBTQ banner . More to the point are some of the comments others have made where some guys might be hoping to get some action with a trans girl but then some guys just can't help falling for anything in a skirt !

[Lacy PJs]

...So how many crossdressers out there say they're straight but have either engaged in homosexual activity - or at least fantasized about it?

Equating fantasy with reality just doesn't work... at all. We have all fantasized about something that couldn't be possible or at least extremely unlikely in our lives. I've fantasized about piloting an F-18 but that doesn't even remotely make me a pilot. I've fantasized about being a star football player in the NFL but have never played a down in an organized/sanctioned game in my life. I'd bet the farm that there isn't a person on this board who hasn't fantasized about doing something that they would NEVER do in real life. So the two are totally separate.

Lacy PJs

[Jodie_Lynn]

Jodie,
I'm sorry but I still don't agree , modern thinking has moved on , at least in the UK they don't associate one with the other , eventhough we come under the LGBTQ banner . More to the point are some of the comments others have made where some guys might be hoping to get some action with a trans girl but then some guys just can't help falling for anything in a skirt !

Teresa, you don't agree with what, exactly? That the uninformed associate crossdressing with homosexuality?

Perhaps the UK is more enlightened than the US ( hell, I know it is! ), I've mentioned in other threads that I work in a place where they have little understanding, or tolerance for anything that isn't 'pure vanilla', and I hear the vicious comments that are made anytime there is a LGBT+ issue mentioned on the radio or an article in the newspaper.

They don't know about Jodie, and if they did, I'd be out of a job.

So even though your experience may be different, please do not disregard or devalue my experiences.

There is still rampant homophobia in the US, and all the "Political Correctness" movement did was to make go undercover.

The people at my job? They feel safe in expressing their true feelings because "we're all normal, right thinking folk" with none of those weirdos around.

[Robertacd]

Jodi is right, none of the "old way of thinking" has gone away in America. It just had been subdued for a period of time.

I am pretty lucky, I live in a small Liberal town in the Pacific Northwest. So I feel safe walking into any business or any part of town regardless of how I am dressed.

But I don't fool myself into believing that this bubble I live in covers the whole world. Because I didn't have to go very far outside of town to not feel safe.

[Vickie_CDTV]

It is very odd that crossdressing and homosexuality are still confused when you think about it. Heterosexual crossdressing, particularly in the fetishistic sense, has been a well documented phenomenon since at least the Victorian era (the idea of a man being forced to wear corsets and petticoats by his GG SO is not a new idea, and such hetero crossdresser erotica was published even back then.) Sexologists were aware of heterosexual crossdressing, and wrote about it in professional journals of the day (and have since.) Talk shows in the 1980s often discussed heterosexual crossdressing. Somehow it didn't quite trickle down to the average person... but at least some people out there know the difference. Over the years, I have told a number of people about my dressing and some of them knew the difference.

[Jean. Ann]

As long as you are not in some way very closely
connected to the other person
, who cares , I think most are way past caring
If a person is gay , or wears pnnties or whatever

JAS

[Ressie]

Equating fantasy with reality just doesn't work... at all. We have all fantasized about something that couldn't be possible or at least extremely unlikely in our lives... the two are totally separate.

Lacy PJs

Good point but not always. Having a the same fantasy repeatedly usually leads to wanting to experience it in the real world. Dreams become goals to achieve whether it's an occupation or a sexual act. Furthermore, if one fantasizes about homosexual encounters without acting on them that person still isn't exactly totally straight. There will always be that inner conflict.

[SFrances]

I just don?t think in today?s day and age, that it matters

[Lacy PJs]

I just don?t think in today?s day and age, that it matters

But it does... there are certain things I'd like to wear in public if it didn't matter to others... but it does... so I won't...

As many have mentioned previously, in many circles, crossdressing and and hence the assumption of being gay does affect ones social status, professional career and a host of other important things in life. Funny but as I lay awake in bed this AM, I thought to myself, "If I could, I'd feel comfortable going out to the kitchen then making & eating breakfast with my better half while wearing my baby doll pajamas." But since I don't want to run around the house with the shades all drawn, I got up and got dressed in my usual male attire. Why? Because where I live, it still DOES matter to some people in my circle of acquaintances.

Anyway... the reason I made the original post here was to open the discussion of what it might be like for us if we could wear what we wanted to wear all of the time without that prejudice of being considered a homosexual. Opinions have ranged far and wide with some being on topic while others have drifted a bit but it has been very interesting to read all of the responses and I hope there are several more before this one winds down.

Lacy PJs

[StevieTV]

I consider myself an effeminate gay. Yes, I dress as an androgynous person and I am happy being called a woman in public. When check out clerks mention about my items I just tell them they are for me as they fit better. I have no concerns what they think. If it supports the notion that gays are crossdressers than I plead guilty. I'm an effeminate gay, so I do as I do.

[Jodie_Lynn]

Good point Jodie

Thanks! :)

[DaisyLawrence]

So sad if this distracts from the current "My favorite panty" thread, but this is a valid and appropriate subject regarding how the non-CD/TG world see the community.

True that.

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Straight. Gay. Bisexual. Pansexual. Asexual. Non-binary, genderfluid, genderqueer. White. Black. Yellow. Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Atheist.


These are all just convenient labels that people can stick onto other people, so that they can classify them in their head.

The labels allow people to put others into a preconceived, presupposed category so that they don't have to think about that person as a person.

Oh, he's gay? That means he... ( insert perceptions about gays here )

Oh, she's black? That means... ( insert perceptions about blacks here )

Most people have perceptions about other groups, not based on real life experience, but rather on what they have been told, or taught to think about those groups.

Even within this thread, I see sweeping generalizations about groups, when everyone here should realize that no two members of this forum share the exact same path, motivations, drives, or experiences. Yes, we have lots of similarities, but overall, we are all clumped under the CD/TG umbrella.

So it is highly amusing to see some of the members here exhibit the same sort of myopic stereotyping of other groups.

Welcome to crossdressers.com!

[TerryWa]

Although I believed I was hetero when I first began cross-dressing, it wasn't until within the last ten years that I accepted my bisexuality. I no longer dress because I make a better man than a woman (I lift weights '). So, for me, it took longer to accept my bisexualiy than it did to accept that I was a cross-dresser. But, i'm all the better for riding out the journey. I'm now attracted to submissive men who cross-dress to attract men like me. They could be gay, bisexual, gender fluid, etc.

[Maid_Marion]

I went to a Carly Rae Jepsen pop concert at the Big E and there seemed to be just as many same sex couples as male/female couples. The Big E is the largest agricultural event on the East Coast.
It was an hour long dance party! :) I think they opened up the showers for anyone who needed to do that after the show.

[maya1]

The human species survives fundamentally because of sex. We may not talk about it a lot in our day-to-day lives and some pockets of our societies are downright puritanical. Of course as we age it becomes less important, but still sex is at the core of who we are. It has to be. And it drives the beauty and fashion industry. Why do you think that women want to look pretty and men want to look virile. Why do they use all those gorgeous female or virile male models to sell us all kinds of stuff.

And so when a man puts on the things that women put on in order to attract men, the assumption is that he wants what she wants - men. Women don't put that stuff on when they're just hanging out together.

Quick story: a friend transitioned about 7 years ago. She takes hormones but I don't know if she has had SRS. She recently posted a pic on facebook about her weekend getaway at a remote cabin (in the woods by a lake) with 6-7 GGs. Everyone was in grubby T-shirts, jeans, no makeup, etc. My friend was the only one all made up, with jewelry, a plunging neckline showing her cleavage, and shorts. Why. All the comments (there were lots from all the tagged GG's friends) had to do with what fun they must all be having, except my friend's 2 male friends. They commented on her appearance. The GGs in the pic and those commenting didn't give two hoots about makeup and cleavage, out in the middle of nowhere with no males around. lol. Why did my friend feel she needed to look sexually appealing. I don't get it, honestly.

Do you see why many people think that CDs/TGs/TSs are attracted to men? That said, I should hope that most people aren't as prejudiced against gay men as 30-40 years ago. But even if they think homosexuality is no big deal, they may still think that it is the fundamental motive for a birth-male who presents as a female.

Just an observation - I find it a little peculiar that so many people on this forum vehemently deny being gay and re-enforce they are straight over and over. Perhaps some of that is because of misconceptions from uneducated people. But there is probably more going on lol.

I'm very attracted to men, especially when in Maya mode and fantasize about men sexually a lot.

[Teresa]

Maya,
Why do you have to question it , I have no misconceptions and I'm educated enough to know my sexual preferences , some of my TG friends are BI , very few appear to be outwardly gay , we do have some interesting conversations and a little arm twisting goes on but I know the score and so do they . If you're not wired that way nothing is going to change it !

[Jodie_Lynn]

True that.

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Welcome to crossdressers.com!

Thanks! I saw your original, and it was spot on! :)

- - - Updated - - -


Although I believed I was hetero when I first began cross-dressing, it wasn't until within the last ten years that I accepted my bisexuality. I no longer dress because I make a better man than a woman (I lift weights and prefer to 'top'). So, for me, it took longer to accept my bisexualiy than it did to accept that I was a cross-dresser. But, i'm all the better for riding out the journey. I'm now attracted to submissive men who cross-dress to attract men like me. They could be gay, bisexual, gender fluid, etc.

Not to hammer the point, but do you identify as gay? Or do you consider yourself straight, with the effeminate crossdressers being the 'gay' ones?

I am asking, because I know a man who identifies as "straight", even though he has no problem topping another man ( crossdressed or not ). His opinion being that, as long as he is "throwing" and not "catching", he is the hetero guy.

[char GG]

I am closing this thread. It is going in a direction that was not intended by the OP.