Rising Male Femininity

[Rhonda Jean]

Sort of a take-off from JessieMay's thread on men's beauty...

I'm old enough to recognize the shift, and probably too old to have a good grasp on it. I think the change is real and permanent. It has little impact on Joe Sixpack of my generation, but the younger you go, the more impactful it is. YouTube, Instagram and the like are full of it. Parent supported and encouraged things that run the gamut from boys with long (feminine) hair, boys wearing makeup and long acrylics, wearing girl's clothes as boys or as girls, gender fluid, gender creative, kids performing drag, male and trans homecoming queens... more examples than I can name.

Some things have kind of sneaked up on us (me). Athletics, that used to be so stridently everything-masculine is just not anymore. No one bats an eye over their earrings, long hair, braids, or updos anymore, and that's ON the field or court. Until probably 10 years ago I never saw a guy in the nail salon, much less see one wearing polish in public. Still far from common, but the fact that it's out there is worlds apart from where it used to be. Same with brows. I see a lot of guys who get their brows done. A few years ago that was unheard of. It wasn't long ago that I never saw a male SA at a makeup counter or store. Then I started seeing guys working there. Now it's not uncommon for them to be wearing obvious makeup. Boys presenting female or transitioning at an early age, teens and pre-teens doing drag... controversial, but it's out there.

I feel like were seeing a massive loosening of social constructs as they relate to gender and sexuality. Kids now have never known a time when gay marriage wasn't legal. Boys kissing boys and girls kissing girls is now common on TV. Most of us remember when that was massively demonized. Things relating to gender and sexuality that used to be WAY out on the fringes are now as close as a mouse click away for anybody of any age. We will never go back to the way things were. The internet has mainstreamed things that were largely unheard of not that long ago.

I think we're seeing the emergence and the normalization, even the celebration of this part of "us" that we, for the most part, kept locked away.

Comments?

[Mariabella]

You are spot on and indeed I am part of the freer feeling in society.
As a kid therapy for my deviancy would have been electroshock so with the changes away from being tortured and mentally mutilated so does the fear of expression dissipate

[CynthiaD]

I think we’re seeing more of the breadth and depth of what it means to be human instead of seeing everything shoe-horned into a couple of little boxes. I know a lot of super-macho men. (I live in Texas.) They’re still the majority. But those of us who prefer to be feminine now have much more freedom to be who we are. What you see on TV isn’t necessarily representative of the real world.

[Karmen]

TV and art world are definitely not a good representatives of the real world we live in, but it's much easier to be gay, CD or gender creative than 20 or more years ago.

[LilSissyStevie]

Rising? I wonder how that works with the theory that gender and sexuality are entirely innate. If you follow the mass media you might think that a third of the people are LGBT. Polls have indicated that people WAY overestimate the percentage of LGBT in the general population. But it may actually be true among the so-called cultural elite. I don't really know. Down here among the proles, I'm not seeing it.

[Stephanie47]

What you observe is not limited to sexuality or gender expression and identity. Increasingly there is more diversity shown on television, especially in advertisements. Now there are ads of boy/boy and girl/girl relationships and ads of mixed race couples; white man/black woman, black man/white woman, Asian/white. Given the current climate it is everyone job to make sure things do not backslide.

[Micki_Finn]

Nope. It’s always been there. You’re talking about long hair and earrings being shocking, but Thomas Jefferson would be scandalized that you’re not wearing heels, hose, and a wig!

Times change, fashion changes. These changes you’ve mentioned (which are purely changes in VISIBILITY, not composition) have been going on since the 50’s. Just because you’re suddenly aware doesn’t mean it’s happening suddenly. It’s just visibility, which is part of acceptance.

[Alice Torn]

As a veteran, and 65 yrs old, and remembering the America and world of my youth, i have mixed feelings on this. I am fascinated by history, and especially the American War between the States, WW1 and WW2. I know some will be ticked with me for writing this, but I do not have a gut feeling , that all is good about the feminization of males. I believe males need a lot of refinement, as too many men have been crude, brutish, insensitive, mean and nasty. And we can learn from the real ladies who are GGs. On the other hand, I really do not believe we could win a WW1 or WW2 with today's males. To completely, trash masculinity may backfire on us, in a real crisis like WW2. i myself am a Highly Sensitive Person and male, and have a split between my male and lady sides. I am blue collar get dirty, greasy, and sweaty guy, but highly sensitive, unlike most males. As much as I think a lot like a woman, i am still a man, and think like a guy in many ways yet. Just my ramblings/

[Robertacd]

Alice, a new study shows that twenty percent of transgender people have served in the military, which is double the percentage of the U.S. general population that has served.

https://www.thetaskforce.org/new-study-finds-transgender-people-twice-as-likely-to-serve-in-military/

Makes sense as Transpeople will often turn to hyper masculine pursuits to try to fight off their feminine side.

[char GG]

Nope. It?s always been there. You?re talking about long hair and earrings being shocking, but Thomas Jefferson would be scandalized that you?re not wearing heels, hose, and a wig!

Times change, fashion changes. These changes you?ve mentioned (which are purely changes in VISIBILITY, not composition) have been going on since the 50?s. Just because you?re suddenly aware doesn?t mean it?s happening suddenly. It?s just visibility, which is part of acceptance.

I also think it?s always been there. Look at the 60?s/70?s/80?s, hair bands, flamboyant clothes for men, freer thinking.

It seems maybe the difference is social media puts everything more things in people?s faces that many wouldn?t ordinarily see or seek out.

I think people have always been the same. As many of you are aware, they used to keep their true feelings hidden. It just seems many are now more open without worrying about what others think.

It sounds like this way if thinking is what many on the forum seem to wish for.

[Rhonda Jean]

These changes you’ve mentioned (which are purely changes in VISIBILITY, not composition) have been going on since the 50’s. Just because you’re suddenly aware doesn’t mean it’s happening suddenly. It’s just visibility, which is part of acceptance.

Without visibility, how would we know it's there? I think there's a new freedom to "be", which is a freedom to "be visible".

[Alice Torn]

We never seem to learn from history. I hear that men are not needed anymore. We would be speaking German now, if that had been the mantra in 1941.

[Tracii G]

Rhonda I think it has just become apparent to you so you think its more than it is.
We will always need manly men and men/women to fight for their country.
I am totally OK with gay and trans in the military IF they can take orders and do their assigned tasks.
Not to demand the taxpayer to front the bill via the VA for SRS or BA.
I in fact know a trans FTM that joined the military with that in mind and is going to try to make us the taxpayer pay for it.

[Alice Torn]

Tracii, I agree. There is a time for war and a time for peace, and every purpose under heaven.

[suzanne]

Men as a group are not being feminized, nor are they being encouraged to feminize. What is happening is that those who wish to express their feminine nature are being granted more latitude without fear of repercussions.

I dress to please myself and the only political statement I'm making is "I'm claiming my space in this world to be who I want to be." I do not dress up and go out for the purpose of recruiting or selling anyone on dressing like me. I have no right to coerce anyone, man or woman, into putting on a skirt against their will. By the same token, no one has the right to compel me to remove my skirt and "dress like a man". And I don't see how any of my preferences indicate a breakdown of society. The only things getting broken down are barriers based on fear and prejudices. Clearing the way for increased diversity is a good thing and is only a threat to those who have benefitted in the past by excluding whoever they can. A healthy society needs everyone's full participation.

[Vicky_Scot]

Some men prefer to show their soft side, be more loving, caring and understanding. This is what I do as I am certainly not a mans man, far from it.
Most woman so they say would prefer a man who shows his soft side but would not dream of saying that's true in all cases.

Hate the term feminized as there are a lot of brash, harsh and brazen woman out there that I would hope never to emulate. Maybe men are not as afraid to show their
true self now and do not feel that they have to be the Neanderthals that we grow up being told be.

X x x

[GaleWarning]

I think that sport, in particular, is having a positive influence on shifting men's attitudes to things like
1. wearing a sports bra
2. wearing an earing
3. having a flamboyant hairstyle
4. having a woman in charge of a major men's league match
5. having a female presenter on the televised men's league matches
and so on

[Alice Torn]

I think there could also be a thread on "Rising Female Masculinity"/ Vicky Scot is right on this. I see a lot of brazen unmannered GGs now, too. I see modern western society becoming a mixture of incivility selfish brutishness, but some very kind people too.

[kimdl93]

There is some evidence that man-made environmental contaminants are significantly reducing male hormone levels throughout the world (how ironic is that!). Who knows what social changes may accompany the impact in the womb and beyond of pesticides and other hormone like substances.

But some of the changes are simple a release of social rigidity dating back to the Victorian era. Male and female roles, at least as presented and espoused, were stereotypes...and didn?t encompass the diversity of actual human experience and lives lived. So challenging stereotypes may give the impression of growing femininity among males that was actually there all along.

No one can deny that the civil rights movement helped reduce oppression of marginalized groups. And real progress has been made over the past few decades. Though often maligned, the media has revealed the diversity of society and revealed that even among such diverse groups, people are fundamentally the same. Empathy grows from familiarity, even for those of us presenting vastly different gender identities.

Things have changed mostly for the better. One hopes that change and social justice can continue on an upward arc, despite the willful efforts of some to undo decades of painfully slow progress.

[LilSissyStevie]

We never seem to learn from history....

I think that if there are laws of history, that would be the first law. There have been many periods of liberalization throughout history but they have always been followed by some kind of crisis which resulted in more regimentation. The "Roaring '20s" was followed by the Great Depression, WWII and the Cold War. I don't have to say what followed the Wiemar Republic. The current thaw started it the '60s and has been going on for over 50 years. Something will end it but we know not what, when or how. Don't get too excited about "progress" because it is ultimately an illusion. Enjoy the current climate while you can.

1920's

https://youtu.be/iSlfQ49Bq1s

1960's

https://youtu.be/yDpGsFI3WNg

[docrobbysherry]

I also think the USA is suffering from a backlash to these new freedoms! :straightface:

Without going into details, there have been significant resistance to these changes from various political and religious individuals and organisations!:sad:

[Jenny22]

1920's

https://youtu.be/iSlfQ49Bq1s Listen to the ones that follow, too!

- - - Updated - - -

Might the rise and publication of genetic and DNA research on 'why trans' have some impact?

[jacques]

hello Rhonda,
I think this a good trend, whether it is rising femininity in young men or a move towards unisex clothing. I have noticed in the UK more young men wearing leggings or tights as sportswear (under shorts) for sport and in the streets - I wish it was age appropriate for me!
luv J

[April Rose]

I have read a lot of history as well, and I feel that one need only look at how many major wars, since the dawn of history, have been started by women to realize that rising femininity in men is probably not such a bad idea.

[LilSissyStevie]

I also think the USA is suffering from a backlash to these new freedoms! :straightface:

Without going into details, there have been significant resistance to these changes from various political and religious individuals and organisations!:sad:

I doubt any "backlash" will come from traditionalists who had their day and lost. Most likely it will come from the new puritans of say the "gender critical" variety. Same thing, only different. As the sage said, "History doesn't repeat itself, it rhymes."

[Vickie_CDTV]

I don't know how popular this really is. I live in a pretty liberal area, and I don't often see men wearing nail polish, and I can't remember the last time I saw a man (non trans) wearing makeup unless they were goth or they were performing on a stage or something.

Most men in a society will do things that women find attractive, and will not do things women find unattractive. Men are often told women want a man who is sensitive like a woman, and are willing to step outside gender norms, but this is, in most cases, really not true. Men who are successful with women can tell you this. Men who were traditionally masculine were often more likely to succeed in life. Both reasons fathers have wanted their sons to be masculine, they wanted them to be successful and to find a mate. (Though in my case, it was about him being embarrassed to have a not-so-masculine son, not about concern for my future well being.)

I think the bigger issue is not so much men indulging in traditionally feminine things, but the villainization of masculinity. The mass media drones on and on about "toxic masculinity", "manspreading", "mansplaining" and on and on about how evil it is to be traditionally masculine. It is getting old, and even men who are not masculine like myself are getting tired of it.

[Alice Torn]

Vickie, Well said. Women i wanted a close relationship with, chose men who were more traditional alpha males, and considered me just a friend. I am 65 now, still single, dont really care if i dont marry now. Peace and quiet with cats here.

[dallasmann]

Fascinating thread. From my vantage point, it's a combination of all the things that make life beautiful. At the same time, I have seen a rise of "hey, men need to be MEN!" types of shares in response to whatever threat on masculinity it is that they perceive.

[Alice Torn]

Highly sensitive men that CD. like me, who have had this compulsion to dress, can also be strong as males. We just have a dimension most men do not have, are threatened by, and to often are called names.

[TheHiddenMe]

I think we?re seeing more of the breadth and depth of what it means to be human instead of seeing everything shoe-horned into a couple of little boxes. I know a lot of super-macho men. (I live in Texas.) They?re still the majority. But those of us who prefer to be feminine now have much more freedom to be who we are. What you see on TV isn?t necessarily representative of the real world.

Exactly.

I believe it isn't any more prevalent now in the general population now than there was a generation ago. It's just more accepted and more media (FB, Instragram, Twitter, et al) to witness it, generally among younger people.

There are still plenty of men stuck in the stone ages. At my transgender group dinner last Saturday night, I was talking with two nembers who are considering transitioning. Both work at blue collar jobs (one auto repair, the other trucking), and work predominantly with men. One discussed the harassment he's received from his co-workers, the other is worried about the reaction from his co-workers.

The change in society has been for the better. There is less sexual harassment than when I started working 40 years ago. Acceptance of gay marriage is at all time highs.

Clearly, these changes have been beneficial for people on this board.

There are still plenty of men (and women) who are willing to serve in the military.

We are a much better society than we were 25 or 50 years ago.

[GaleWarning]

We are a much better society than we were 25 or 50 years ago.

Really?
Then please tell me why the youth of today are far more threatened with violence, both physical and mental (cyber bullying) than we were.
Why do more and more people live in gated communities, rather than in suburbs where children can safely play on the streets?
Other examples spring to mind, which I will not mention just now.

[Alice Torn]

I think we are in the best of times and the worst of times at the same time. Moore freedoms, but more violence in schools, horribly violent video games rampant crime. Record homelessness in big cities and smaller cities. Drugs killing more people than ever. Record suicide numbers. Massive record numbers in prison. Horrible division and corruption in politics. Yet, we have the internet, cellphones, I phones, amazing technologies, plenty of food, though much or most food is degenerated with chemicals and GMOs, and fat causing additives. Obesity is pandemic as never before in world history. People are estranged, families are estranged. Engulfed in our electronic devices too much, not connecting in person much anymore. We are lonelier, and emptier, not communicating in person much. The love and respect between the sexes is at an all time low. Music is mostly very depressing. Depression is pandemic. Love is vanishing. Horribly violent video games are spurring real violence, too. Best of times and worst of times. The problems are spiritual. General Douglas MacArthur, after WW2 and Korean War, in his farewell speech, said we have had our last chance. If the flesh is to be saved, it will need to be of the spirit. Lincoln, though i disagree with some of what he did, said , it must be be the better angels of our nature, iif we are to survive. I see the mixture of some good, and some bad in the changes going on.

[LilSissyStevie]

Something about this thread made me think about the mouse experiments of John Calhoun. I wonder if "rising male femininity" correlates to Calhoun's "beautiful ones."

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-1960s-led-grim-predictions-humans-180954423/

[Alice Torn]

Interesting LSS. Overcrowding is not good for most people or animals. Ants and schools of fish don't seem to mind it. Remember the old song, " Don't fence me in"? I think we've gotten off the thread topic. Sorry mods.

[TheHiddenMe]

Really?
Then please tell me why the youth of today are far more threatened with violence, both physical and mental (cyber bullying) than we were.
Why do more and more people live in gated communities, rather than in suburbs where children can safely play on the streets?
Other examples spring to mind, which I will not mention just now.

Actually, crime is down substantially from the 1990's.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/17/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/

Gated communities exist because of the perception of increased crime, but there is no evidence that residents of gated communities are actually safer.


Divorce rates are down.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/10/divorce-united-states-dropping-because-millennials/

Teen pregnancy rates are down.

https://www.cdc.gov/teenpregnancy/about/index.htm

And there is an opioid crisis, largely driven by the greed of certain pharmaceutical companies.

Public opinion on gay marriage has soared.

https://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/

By any number of measures, society is better today.

[Alice Torn]

Many more drug deaths now, too.

[TheHiddenMe]

Does everyone know the state with the highest rate of drug deaths?

West Virginia.

Does everyone know that West Virginia is 97% white?

A vast majority of the drug deaths in West Virginia are males. Same with obesity.

Does anyone think here that moving away from macho male stereotypes--guzzling beer and wings--the same causes that lead to obesity and drug overffoses--isn't a good thing?

[LilSissyStevie]

West Virginia's problems probably have a lot more to do with it's relative poverty than with being white or macho. Belgium has a higher suicide rate than the US. I don't think it's known for it's machismo. Pakistan has a much lower suicide rate and a super macho culture. Suicide rates are higher for males most places in the world with the notable exceptions of China and the aforementioned Pakistan (where suicide rates are low overall). Suicide rates for the US are roughly the same as in the feminist utopia of Sweden. There are no simplistic answers for why any of this is true.

[Alice Torn]

The drug , excuse me for a possible misspelling, Fentinol? I hear an amount the size of two rice grains will kill in a few minutes, causing breathing to stop. It is pandemic now, as it is mixed with cocaine and other drugs.

[char GG]

This thread has gone off topic and is now closed.