Why I think CDers will never be fully accepted

[Jill]

In more ways then one I often kind of feel like the odd ball around here. There literally are hundreds of members here but I generally think that I think differently then most here, not that it's a bad thing, but I wonder if I sometimes rock the boat a little too much. I know that depending on your location and cirmcumstances, there are different levels of acceptance for you. Those living in a bigger, liberal and diverse city are gonna have an easier time. Not me though, I believe that I have really good friends and even though they would still be my friend and accept me, it would never be the same. But I believe that in general, there will never be a true acceptance for CDers. The reason? Bottom line, too many weirdo's out there and unfortunately, some of those weirdo's are CDers.

The CDers that good husbands and fathers who have good careers and go to church every sunday will never get the main stream attention because those ones don't shock and awe people like the ones I described above. You tell someone you crossdress and what is their first question? Are you gay? Do you want to be a woman? They ask that because they're seeing all the gay ones on TV that are taking hormones, the ones that are ******** etc. The screwed up ones are stealing the show and will continue to do so and that is why I believe we will never gain real acceptance.

[Jennaie]

Hmmmm...
Do you really think it is fair of you to place your "catagory" of transgenderism above the rest? Do you really believe that a transexual is any less of a person than you are? Is there something wrong with being gay?

The term "Transgendered" covers a wide latitude of individuals who do not fit into the social norms of gender identity.

I may be reading your message wrong but what I am hearing you saying is " Hey, I'm not like the rest of these freaks, I'm a good church going man with a wife and family, I just like to dress up in womens clothing".

Is that what you are saying? Because if it is, you offend me.

[sherri]

Jill, I've been reading your posts for a long time now and have always thought two things about you:

1. Great legs.

2. A tad too pessimistic.

It's very easy, even normal, to have a fearful attitude if you never get out there and experience interaction for yourself. While we are a far cry from mainstream acceptance, I do believe nevertheless that acceptance is on the rise. There will always be the bad examples and there will always be the bigots, but those extremes do not define the whole.

[Melanie R]

Jill,

I think from my 25+ years in the TG community that you are wrong in your assessment that crossdressers will never be accepted. Compared to where we were in society in 1980 we have come a long way. Since 1992 my wife and I have sponsored 25 crossdressing cruises where we are 20-30 CD's and 10-20 wives/family members. We have seen the acceptance level change dramatically. On a cruise with 2000-3000 other passengers who are with our group and up close and personal for 7-14 nights, there has never been a better arena for measuring society knowledge, understanding and acceptance. There will never be a time where we have 100% acceptance. Nor will there ever be a time when gays are accepted by all in society or chistians or any other group. Many in society are ignorant about transgendered persons including crossdressers. Ignorance brreds confusion and non-acceptance. Many still think that any man who puts on a dress is gay.

This coming Sunday we have a smaller group of 9 crossdressers and 10 wives and family members leaving Galveston on the 3400 passenger Conquest for Jamaica. Most of the CD's in our group including myself will remain enfemme during the 7 days and nights. The cruise line and ship knows our group will be on board and have instructed the staff on treating us as ladies - not as men in dresses. I will report back on how we were treated on this cruise and address the question again about will we ever have acceptance.

Melanie

[Kathycd]

Jill:

Interesting analogy and thought provoking to be sure. But then there are places for diferent things and different attitudes. I agree about the visable ones out there. Most don't really have a clue. But then one comes to a venue like this and meets people who share and care.

I, like many here I am sure, have been in the chat rooms starting way back in the old mIRC days to present day MSN and Yahoo, and your right, about the diversity found there.

However keeping a perspective (myself) I have made some friends here and there, but the close friends I have made are very dear to my heart. Un fortunately there will always be the "other side" and even more fortunately there are venues like this Forum where one can be themselves and just enjoy the life style chosen and really get an overall perspective of who, why, where we, as individules, want to be or do.

You made some good points and thought provoking, thank you sis.

hugs

kathy

[Joy Carter]

I think that to be accepted into the main stream we need to be a good example of womanhood. I don't judge thouse who have a different approach to the gender thing I just know how I feel and conduct myself. But we just are not going to be judged as idividuals only as a whole.

[claire angie]

my dear jill
i am in total agreement with you on your throuhts ,i do not have a problem with the gay people but you can just get so anoyed by them as they start shouting homophic at you,and me a TV. not that i go and shout out LOOK at ME. to me thats mostly their problem, and so they should learn to deal with it better.
but as you say we will not get acceptance(well not in my life time):happy:

[Amelie]

I agree with Jennaie, Jill's post is quite offensive.

I would like to know one thing, How am I being a gay CD hurting things for you straight people? How am I hurting the image of straight CDs?

Jill, you answered tour question in your post. It is not gay CDs that hurt your image. it is the church that you speak of that wants to prevent you from being a CD. If there were no gay cds, or no weirdo Cds as you put it, the church and it's members will still keep your ass in the closet. They don't care if you have a family or how decent you might portray yourself, it's just because you wear women's clothes is why they won't accept you.

Oh What a minute, you're from Utah, I now understand where you are coming from.

My opinion: I hope you and some others here remain in the closet for the rest of your life, this is where people like you belong.

Me. I am a gay CD who goes out whenever I wish.

[Tamara Croft]

The CDers that good husbands and fathers who have good careers and go to church every sunday will never get the main stream attention because those ones don't shock and awe people like the ones I described above. You tell someone you crossdress and what is their first question? Are you gay? Do you want to be a woman? They ask that because they're seeing all the gay ones on TV that are taking hormones, the ones that are ******** etc. The screwed up ones are stealing the show and will continue to do so and that is why I believe we will never gain real acceptance.Do you go to church dressed enfemme? or in drab? Do you take your family out whilst you are enfemme or not? Do you go to work enfemme? I'll bet your answer to all those questions is NO!! So you won't get any attention or shock people because your CD'ing life is in the closet and not in their faces. Your comment about gay CD's giving you a bad name is out of line. I've seen 'supposedly' straight CD's on this forum, married, happy in their lives, take a complete turn around and go have sex with another male and they think this is justified because they are a CD. So, please don't condem the minority you think are giving you a bad name, when so many what you call 'normal' CD's are doing exactly that.

I'd like to see some evidence of shows, with 'gay' cd's and ******** that you speak of, because I've not seen any you are talking about.

[Julie York]

I think you're all being a bit harsh and picking out a couple of badly worded statements in a post that has a good point.

I think what Jill said is that it is the CDs who are at the bottom of the "sleaze and nutjob" heap who get the publicity and therefore most of the ignorant public assume we are all in that same group because that's what they get to see. "And tonight on Jerry Springer...a really nice well balanced guy who has a feminine side." Sure!

It doesn't matter if they are gay, straight, go to church, or are decent people (by whatever way you want to measure that).....they will be lumped in with the guy who stole panties off a line, the guy who robs a bank in drag, or the ******* on the net with a carrot up her jacksy on webcam.





(And very amusing it was too.)

:D .

[Cathy Anderson]

I wonder if I sometimes rock the boat a little too much.

Rock on.


The CDers that good husbands and fathers who have good careers and go to church every sunday will never get the main stream attention

Never say never.


The screwed up ones are stealing the show and will continue to do so and that is why I believe we will never gain real acceptance.
Personally, I think the media are MAKING these people the center of attention, not the other way around.

It's nothing new IMHO.

Cathy

[Tamara Croft]

Yeah but Jerry Springer..... oh come on, only in the USA ;) No wonder I haven't seen these 'screwed up ones'. And as for these screwed up ones, does anyone ever shout 'hey.... don't lump them with us', I bet they don't, so it's no wonder these 'screwed up ones' are lumped with all TG's.

[Amelie]

I think you're all being a bit harsh and picking out a couple of badly worded statements in a post that has a good point.

I think what Jill said is that it is the CDs who are at the bottom of the "sleaze and nutjob" heap who get the publicity and therefore most of the ignorant public assume we are all in that same group because that's what they get to see. "And tonight on Jerry Springer...a really nice well balanced guy who has a feminine side." Sure!

It doesn't matter if they are gay, straight, go to church, or are decent people (by whatever way you want to measure that).....they will be lumped in with the guy who stole panties off a line, the guy who robs a bank in drag, or the ******* on the net with a carrot up her jacksy on webcam.





(And very amusing it was too.)

:D .

A bit harsh over a couple of badly worded statements?????

So, if someone here makes a very decent post and then says one derogatory remark then we should ignore that remark?
So if I made a really nice post and in the post I say something bad about GGs then this would be OK and no one shouild respond harshly? Jill doesn't say straight in her post, only gay is mentioned.

I don't care what you say Julie, if someone says something that I feel is aimed at me, I will respond and harshly.

[Julie Avery]

Point well taken about what Julie York calls the CD's at the bottom of the "sleaze and nutball" heap getting a disproportionate amount of attention.

Point not well taken lumping "gays" as a category into that group.

How often modern history has shown two groups of people at the bottom of the social ladder kicking each other in order to win the worthless prize of feeling better than at least *someone* else in the face of all the disapproval, disdain and discrimination the bitter, next-to-the bottom group faces.

I think CD's should examine their consciences concerning motives for expressing disapproval of gay people.

[Aileen]

I wouldn't expect acceptance, unless I had the operation, which I don't want to do. I know that men get uncomfortable around men in drag, because I've experienced it myself when I wasn't in drag and I was around men in drag. The situation was just a midnight movie in which a couple guys decided to come in drag for no good reason ( the movie had no crossdressing in it ). I thought, "Man, I hope they don't sit next to me."

Wanting to come to work in a dress would just be too disruptive for the work environment. Now I know you'll say it's disruptive because everybody's intolerant, but sometimes you can't expect everyone in the world to change just for you. Black people, gay people have no choice in being black or gay, but I have a choice as to whether I wear a dress or not.

[Bonnie D]

I'm not going to jump on you Jill because you have your own environment to deal with. I just want to point out a few things.

The people who bring issues to the forefront are those who are flamboyant, confrontational, this is who I am too bad if you don't like it, controversial, brave, etc. They are the ones who turn society's attention towards them and not usually in a very positive light. But then from there it begins to grow and society begins to see that the subject needs to be looked at closer and that everyone under the "umbrella" is not so extroverted and challenging. Also, there a lot more people who think along the same lines as those who brought the issue to forefront in the first place. So what is this issue really about and can it be looked at in a more positive manner. "Should women be allowed to vote?" and of course many other issues....

I think you get my point. If you don't like what someone is doing try to show some compassion for them there may be a hidden reason for what they are doing and persecution will do no one any good.

Bonnie

[Sharon]

You tell someone you crossdress and what is their first question? Are you gay? Do you want to be a woman? They ask that because they're seeing all the gay ones on TV that are taking hormones, the ones that are ******** etc. The screwed up ones are stealing the show and will continue to do so and that is why I believe we will never gain real acceptance.

Well, I guess I owe you an apology for dragging you down.

Seriously though, I think you're visiting the wrong sites and viewing the wrong programs. If you ever want a list of more positive programming, just let me know and I'll be happy to assemble one for you.

In the meantime, I hope it's all right with you if I continue to live my life.

And one more thing -- what have you personally done to alter the perceptions of others? Or are you just waiting for others like you to take the ball?

[Jennaie]

Julie York: Your words, "I think you're all being a bit harsh and picking out a couple of badly worded statements in a post that has a good point."

I politely ask her if that was what she was saying, I am still waiting for her response. I may have misunderstood her message as many do in chat rooms and this type of venue. That is why I gave her an opportunity to clarify what she meant.

Jennaie

[Julie York]

A bit harsh over a couple of badly worded statements?????

So, if someone here makes a very decent post and then says one derogatory remark then we should ignore that remark?
So if I made a really nice post and in the post I say something bad about GGs then this would be OK and no one shouild respond harshly? Jill doesn't say straight in her post, only gay is mentioned.

I don't care what you say Julie, if someone says something that I feel is aimed at me, I will respond and harshly.

Ooh you're so sexy when you get angry.:cheeky:

I didn't mean that you can't rip someone's throat out for making an offensive (to you) statement. And very well you did it too.

I was just pointing out that most replies to the post by Jill had little to do with the point which was initially being made....though maybe expressed badly.

[Marla S]

The people who bring issues to the forefront are those who are flamboyant, confrontational, this is who I am too bad if you don't like it, controversial, brave, etc. They are the ones who turn society's attention towards them and not usually in a very positive light.
:thumbsup: Good and important point.
After that, it is the job of the "mainstream" to rise attention, respecting the provisos and insecurities of non-CD-world, as we wish to be respected.

[sherri]

If acceptance is on the rise, and I believe it is, it's not because of tranny hookers or drag queens or the Jerry Springer types or their high profile, sensationalized visibility.

It's because of a growing awareness of the legitimacy of unconventional gender issues and adaptations such as that depicted in the movie Transamerica. It's because of organized initiatives to force law makers and law enforcers to make room for us in society and protect our civil rights. It's because of ordinary people like you and me who swallow their fear and gently insist on our place in society by proving to people on a one-on-one basis that there's nothing to be afraid of.

It's also because of the slow but steady influence of cultural diversity and acceptance hard fought and hard won by racial minorities and gays, establishing a foothold of integration and an atmosphere of tolerance that paves the way for the likes of us.

[Yes I am]

Whatever, the mainstream is boring anyway. What bothers me are the types that insist on reiterating to everyone how perfectly normal they really are despite their transwhatever tendencies. Forget that, it's not normal, it is abnormal, it is weird and different and shocking to most and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. What we do cuts to the core of the institutions that have been the bedrock, for better or for worse, of our respective civilizations. I take pride in the knowledge that my crossdressing does in fact subvert the mainstream view of gender roles and sexuality. We don't need the mainstream to accept us, what we should demand and strive for is a complete obliteration and restructuring of what the mainstream is, and make it acceptable to us. Then again, that is just one man in a dress's opinion.

[sherri]

We don't need the mainstream to accept us, what we should demand and strive for is a complete obliteration and restructuring of what the mainstream is, and make it acceptable to us.

"You say you want a revolution
Well you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know you can count me out
Don't you know it's gonna be alright"

[BethGG]

I think it's like that in any minority group though. For example, I'm vegetarian...when you think vegetarian, what do you think? Many people think "those crazy PETA people, so annoying!". Because the ones that are all vocal and militant are the ones that get the attention. I've had people sarcasticly ask if I'm going to get PETA stickers all over my car now, after telling them I'm veg. I figure the best way to represent the image I want, is to just be myself, and show people I'm not some weirdo, I'm just me, and I don't eat animals. I think the same should go for you and others...act the way you feel you should, and remember that other more "out there" people are NOT you, and don't let anyone compare you to them. Work to change the image to what you want it to be.

I think one reason CD'ing may take a long time to get more accepted, is that many CD'ers present themselves as regular heterosexual guys(when not dressed obviously). CDers can stay in the closet as long as they like, whereas someone who is black/a woman/ect, cannot. They have to fight for equality, because their "difference" is out there. Where CDers can enjoy the comfort of being seen as your standard male, which is a pretty comfortable place to be as far as discrimination goes(but probably not internally). Sure there are people who go full time, but think of what percentage of the CD population does that, probably not much. I'm not blaming anyone for not being "out" enough, but I'm just saying I think this is one reason why CDs being accepted has/will take a long time(though not never!!).

And I don't see why you're saying gay CD'ers are bringing you down. What does someone's sexual orientation have to do with anything?? :frustrated:

[Trinity_cat]

Exhibitionists / extroverts are the people who get noticed and remembered first.
If they make an arse of themselves, then they condemn the whole of their community.
They may be gay straight CD or don’t knows, It’s all the same to me. But HE, SHE should be held responsible for their actions and not the “group” they belong to.

What I find most offensive, is the fact that this bucket of “sleaze & nut jobs” are perceived as “male”. There are just as many GG’s in this here shit pile.

[paulaN]

Church or should I say [religion] is the biggest reason for suppresive thinking in the world IMHO. Not true in all cases but in very very many, probley most. Now Jill where are you? Can you clairfy your statment? Sista's have we been trolled? Ok I should not say trolled. but this thread has gotten peoples dander up (troll like) nuff said.

[sharifemme]

Jill...

I think I get the gist of what you are trying to say even though your wording is offending a few people. It's difficult to work for acceptance from the masses as long as those masses are focused on the few who are sensationalized.

However, we are gaining and someday we will surely have the same human rights as everybody else. Our main problem is that we are so closeted that we don't speak up. This is the same problem all civil rights movements have at their beginnings. Now we really do not have to become out of the closet radicals to effect change. We can get an anonomous E-mail account and E-mail our legislators and executives. We can thus tell them we deserve human rights and that if we don't get them they will lose our vote. If we would all do this, we WOULD have a movement!

Sharifemme


In more ways then one I often kind of feel like the odd ball around here. There literally are hundreds of members here but I generally think that I think differently then most here, not that it's a bad thing, but I wonder if I sometimes rock the boat a little too much. I know that depending on your location and cirmcumstances, there are different levels of acceptance for you. Those living in a bigger, liberal and diverse city are gonna have an easier time. Not me though, I believe that I have really good friends and even though they would still be my friend and accept me, it would never be the same. But I believe that in general, there will never be a true acceptance for CDers. The reason? Bottom line, too many weirdo's out there and unfortunately, some of those weirdo's are CDers. The ones getting most of the attention are the gay, tampon wearing, exhibitionists who like to show their genitals and talk about how much dick they like to eat. (Pardon my loose language.)

The CDers that good husbands and fathers who have good careers and go to church every sunday will never get the main stream attention because those ones don't shock and awe people like the ones I described above. You tell someone you crossdress and what is their first question? Are you gay? Do you want to be a woman? They ask that because they're seeing all the gay ones on TV that are taking hormones, the ones that are ******** etc. The screwed up ones are stealing the show and will continue to do so and that is why I believe we will never gain real acceptance.

[sherri]

Exhibitionists / extroverts are the people who get noticed and remembered first.
I don't think that's necessarily true. I don't think RuPaul has any more impact on any given person's conciousness than a first-person encounter with me.


If they make an arse of themselves, then they condemn the whole of their community.
I used to think like that, and it is true to a certain extent. But I think that assumption discounts the judgement of the "audience". Example: I hold the rap community in very low regard. Does that mean I should regard all black people as gangstas and ho's? Well, on the other side of the coin, I watch intriguing interviews on Charlie Rose with a professor emeritus of Duke University, who happens to be a black man, or Magic Johnson and my faith is restored, even elevated.

I'll tell you something else - it's not safe to presume who is free of prejudice and who ain't. It might be that gay intellectual at the college, but it just might also be that sweet clerk at the 7-11, too. Ya never know.

[maid phylis]

:c9: :doll: being from new york i have to walk about five city blocks from my station to get to our apt in manhattan where cdi meets ,i do this fully dressed and have been doing it for about four years,i feel that acceptance is just around the corner and more girls should be out there doing what me and my sisters are doing ,getting out there like they say in the commercial for the cruise lines ...get out there and show the world that we are and we are not going away.hugs phylisanne

[KathrynW]

;)
The CDers that good husbands and fathers who have good careers and go to church every sunday will never get the main stream attention because those ones don't shock and awe people like the ones I described above. You tell someone you crossdress and what is their first question? Are you gay? Do you want to be a woman? They ask that because they're seeing all the gay ones on TV that are taking hormones, the ones that are ******** etc. The screwed up ones are stealing the show and will continue to do so and that is why I believe we will never gain real acceptance.
Interesting...
Folks getting steamed, and a potential full blown crap sling in the making and I'm not involved...imagine that...;)
Jill: You said -

CDers that are good husbands and fathers who have good careers and go to church every sunday will never get the main stream
Think about what you've said here...
How much really GOOD NEWS have you ever seen or heard reported anywhere?
Not much, because GOOD NEWS doesn't sell newspapers or keep people glued to the TV. The majority of news than anyone hears is when someone screws up or something goes wrong. That's simply the way it is, so I'm not sure how valid your comment is.
And...as far as T folks appearing on Springer and other exploitation shows hurting our image, well...people who watch that stuff are watching it to see something outrageous. And who takes that trash seriously anyway?
Now...gay cd's...
I don't really see how they're hurting anyone other than themselves by the lifestyle they choose. And...it's their choice, they're not forcing it on you. Admittedly, I've made some not-so-positive comments about these folks in the past. But, I've experienced first hand...that some of these people are the nicest, most compassionate individuals you'll ever meet.
Yes, I know my redneck status is seriously in jeopardy by making that comment... ;)
However, I will also say, that I have seen some quite inappropriate comments made on this forum by gay cd's, but they are definitely not the norm and are usually soon deleted.
Jill: I'll ask what it seems everyone so far has been afraid to ask...
I see you're in Utah, so are you a Mormon?
If so, it seems that would explain a lot.
There's enough people who hate cd's...I'm thinking our best option would be everyone attempting to get along and not create more division among ourselves. Whatta ya say?

[Amelie]

;)
Interesting...
Folks getting steamed, and a potential full blown crap sling in the making and I'm not involved...imagine that...;)
Jill: You said -

Think about what you've said here...
How much really GOOD NEWS have you ever seen or heard reported anywhere?
Not much, because GOOD NEWS doesn't sell newspapers or keep people glued to the TV. The majority of news than anyone hears is when someone screws up or something goes wrong. That's simply the way it is, so I'm not sure how valid your comment is.
And...as far as T folks appearing on Springer and other exploitation shows hurting our image, well...people who watch that stuff are watching it to see something outrageous. And who takes that trash seriously anyway?
Now...gay cd's...
I don't really see how they're hurting anyone other than themselves by the lifestyle they choose. And...it's their choice, they're not forcing it on you. Admittedly, I've made some not-so-positive comments about these folks in the past. But, I've experienced first hand...that some of these people are the nicest, most compassionate individuals you'll ever meet.
Yes, I know my redneck status is seriously in jeopardy by making that comment... ;)
However, I will also say, that I have seen some quite inappropriate comments made on this forum by gay cd's, but they are definitely not the norm and are usually soon deleted.
Jill: I'll ask what it seems everyone so far has been afraid to ask...
I see you're in Utah, so are you a Mormon?
If so, it seems that would explain a lot.
There's enough people who hate cd's...I'm thinking our best option would be everyone attempting to get along and not create more division among ourselves. Whatta ya say?


Wow,,, Who are you? And where did you come from? I never saw you here at the forum before. lol

[KathrynW]

Wow,,, Who are you? And where did you come from? I never saw you here at the forum before. lol
oh stopppp......;)

[Christina Nicole]

Ugh!

This thread is terrible. I will allow that Jill picked some of her words and phrases badly. But what followed was worse. It's one thing to point out behavior that she finds to put CDs in a bad light. is overboard to name call.

Yet the over-reaction to Jill's post was appalling. Jill was called offensive. Not that her posting or words were offensive, but Jill, herself, her personality, was called offensive. Others attacked the premise without refuting it. Really ladies. Lets all try to behave as ladies.

If one looks at the material written about cross dressing, one often reads the point that cross dressing is not being related to sexuality. But one often sees, in the media, and in many of the posts here, where cross dressers act in, depict, or describe homosexual or bisexual behaviors. Thus there appears, falsely, a linkage. This perpetuates the perception problem for the heterosexual cross dresser. There usually is at least one thread about sex on the first page of the male to female forum. If there is no connection, as the articles say, why the apparent connection? (That's rhetorical.)

The really offensive thing to see is how little tolerance there is amount this group of "sisters" for Jill's opinion. How can one expect acceptance, or even just tolerance from general society when so little acceptance is shown not only to the ideas of one of us, but also to the person?

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[Tamara Croft]

The really offensive thing to see is how little tolerance there is amount this group of "sisters" for Jill's opinion. How can one expect acceptance, or even just tolerance from general society when so little acceptance is shown not only to the ideas of one of us, but also to the person?Are you having a laugh or what? Jill offended the gay CD's, yes JILL, she wrote it, she said it, she offended them. According to JILL, if you aren't church going and have a good job etc, then you are not doing the CD community any good at all. Puh-lease, she wrote those comments, not the media, not someone one in her head, SHE DID, jeez....

If someone insulted what I was, I'd be bloody mad as hell too. Just because one gay CD is bad, does NOT make them all bad. Where's her tolerance for the Gay CD? Where's her acceptance?

[Bernice]

Christina Nicole,
:iagree:

Fantastic! Here I was, dreading having to come up with a thoughtful response to soothe hurt feelings, and try to inject some civility in this discussion, and I get to the last post and Voila! Bless you! You have it so together girl!

There's nothing left for me to add. What you said was just perfect!

Hugs,

Bernice

[size7satin]

Why would a vegetarian have a:

P.eople
E.ating
T.asty
A.nimals

Bumper sticker?

[Rikkicn]

I've just seen a documentary called "Screaming Queens"
In 1966 a group of transgendered women were being harrassed by the police at Compton's Cafeteria in San Francisco.
This harrassment had gone on for years and years and this one night these women had enough.
They pushed back and it began a 24 hour riot. It was an early step in what would become the gay liberation movement. Three years latter would come Stonewall in New York. It was 1969 and this time the riot lasted 2 -3 days.
The first push back came from the drag queens. Shoes and purses flying they forced the police out of the bar and into the streets.
Up until these two events cder's et al where being arrested, harrassed beaten and raped by the police consistently. It was illegal for a man to be wearing even one article of women's clothing.

With out these two events and these brave drag queens and transexual women the GLBT movment would probably be far behind where it is now.

Even though many of us don't like being part of that community they are are only allies and supporters. And just to be fair many in the gay community don't want us to be any part of it. Some don't like us much.

Why? you'll love this! We make them look bad and they will have a harder time being accepted by society if we are seen as part of them. We're too freaky, they say, wearing dresses, wigs and make up and such.
That's exactly what we say about some of the subcultures in our own T community. "They makes us look bad and if wasn't for them we would be accepted"

If there are gay cder's, I would love to hear your comments, perhaps you can confirm this. I live in San Francisco and spend all my time inside the GLBT community but perhaps this is a local thing.
Rikki

[Kitty Sue]

I'm bi and it could be taken as an offensive post. She certainly gives me the impression that she is trying to say her form of CDing is okay and therefore acceptable as she takes here CDing in a different dirction from others. It is understandable as we all want to be accepted and seen as "normal."

My thing is as long as nobody is being hurt, the parties involved are in agreement and over 18 do whatever floats your boat. I do not understand why a guy would want to wear a tampon but I am not going to bash him for doing so. That is money that I can use for panty hose.:happy:

[Jennaie]

I'm bi and it could be taken as an offensive post. She certainly gives me the impression that she is trying to say her form of CDing is okay and therefore acceptable as she takes here CDing in a different dirction from others. It is understandable as we all want to be accepted and seen as "normal."

My thing is as long as nobody is being hurt, the parties involved are in agreement and over 18 do whatever floats your boat. I do not understand why a guy would want to wear a tampon but I am not going to bash him for doing so. That is money that I can use for panty hose.:happy:

I have no desire to wear a tampon but I do have a couple in my purse just in case I am in womens bathroom and ask for one. I don't know if that ever happens but I do like to be prepared.

[KathrynW]

I do not understand why a guy would want to wear a tampon but I am not going to bash him for doing so. That is money that I can use for panty hose.
I don't mean to de-rail this thread, but I've seen this topic come up a few times, here and on other cd forums...
Obviously cd's have no real physical reason to "wear" a tampon. But part of this whole cd-ing thing, is how certain things and actions make some of us "feel". If a cd imagines that a tampon greatly enhances their feminine experience, I say hey...whatever floats your boat. ;) I've heard some stories from hospital ER's that are stranger than this. ;)

[GypsyKaren]

And that will be the end of the wearing a tampon talk, or I'll be a using the delete key.

Karen

[ReginaK]

It's not the media, the church, or the "rednecks" that's keeping us from being accepted. We're not going to be accepted because we spend so much time picking each other apart. Just like crabs in a bucket.

It's just that much easier to not be accepted when a lot of us don't even accept each other.

[Jill]

First of all, I want to apologize to anyone that I offended, I came across in ways that I did not intend to and I think people read into what I was saying more then I thought they would and misread my intent. I am not saying that the only good people in the world are the straight people who go to church. I didn't mean to stir up quite a controversy. What I am saying is that there are a lot of those out there that are giving us a bad image and those are the ones that get the most attention. There's a stereotype attached to CDers, just like everything else, and those that are creating the stereo types are the ones pulling in the most attention. Am I hypocrit? Yes I am, I believe we all are. Am I perfect and do everything right? Absolutely not, I never claimed that I was nor did I ever claim that my opinions are right.

What I am saying is that if you like to wear tampons, don't announce it to the public. If you like to take pictures of your erect manhood in pantyhose and put them on the internet, please don't. Cause I believe the ones doing stuff like this are the ones giving us a bad name. Again, I'm sorry that I offended some people, that was not my intention. All of this is strictly my lowly, worthless, stupid opinion.

[Sweet Susan]

Jill,
I'd like to just say that you have gorgeous legs, and I, for one, am really glad you haven't changed your avatar, though I would love to see what you look like, cuz if you are half as pretty as your legs, you must be a knock-out. Now how's that for a compound-complex sentence?! Oh, yes, before I forget, it's good to see you posting again, as I haven't seen you around in quite some time. And double oh, yes, it is 'than' (t-h-a-n) not then. Just trying to be helpful.

Susan

[Jennaie]

First of all, I want to apologize to anyone that I offended, I came across in ways that I did not intend to and I think people read into what I was saying more then I thought they would and misread my intent. I am not saying that the only good people in the world are the straight people who go to church. I didn't mean to stir up quite a controversy. What I am saying is that there are a lot of those out there that are giving us a bad image and those are the ones that get the most attention. There's a stereotype attached to CDers, just like everything else, and those that are creating the stereo types are the ones pulling in the most attention. Am I hypocrit? Yes I am, I believe we all are. Am I perfect and do everything right? Absolutely not, I never claimed that I was nor did I ever claim that my opinions are right.

What I am saying is that if you like to wear tampons, don't announce it to the public. If you like to take pictures of your erect manhood in pantyhose and put them on the internet, please don't. Cause I believe the ones doing stuff like this are the ones giving us a bad name. Again, I'm sorry that I offended some people, that was not my intention. All of this is strictly my lowly, worthless, stupid opinion.


Jill, Thank you so much for your response. I have been waiting all day to see what you had to say. I am sorry that this turned into such a mess. I understand what you were trying to say now and I think you are right. Those people do portray a very unrealistic image of the transgendered community.

Thank you again for making your thoughts clear.

Jennaie :be:

[Lisa Golightly]

The CDers that good husbands and fathers who have good careers and go to church every sunday will never get the main stream attention because those ones don't shock and awe people like the ones I described above. You tell someone you crossdress and what is their first question? Are you gay? Do you want to be a woman? They ask that because they're seeing all the gay ones on TV that are taking hormones, the ones that are ******** etc. The screwed up ones are stealing the show and will continue to do so and that is why I believe we will never gain real acceptance.

Maybe you want to get out there and be counted amongst the few then. In my view human beings are all made from the same stuff and it is tolerance that is required rather than censorship. I live as I live and to be honest I really don't have any problems. I think you are speaking from a viewpoint of fear, rather than experience. I have my own company, my customers know me as Lisa, my friends know me a Lisa, everyone really...

It is ignorance of the subject that leads to people to accept tabloid moralism on TG'sm. If you want to change it, then walk outside, show your face and change it. Some of us have been doing it for years.

Until we get out there and teach the masses we'll never be accepted anyway.

[crusadergirl]

Hey everyone i think it doen't matter if ur gay are not thats not the point its just ppl take things to far. Lets go with the gay ppl they get pissed off everytime someone says the word gay its just dumb who cares your wasting ur time jills not wrong for saying what she said its ppl like u amelic that take dumb stuff like this personal. Don't get mad accept life for what it is u live ur life and everybody else can live theres and grow up Kid>CG

[TVStevie]

Vaguely on topic, although I hope I don't offend anyone, I recently saw an article about the alleged promiscuity within the gay community, which claimed that the only reason why gay males are more promiscuous than straight males is because they are having sex with other males. As a gender (sweeping statement alert!), women are less promiscuous and as such, the opportunity for straight men to have no-strings sex does not arise as frequently as it would for gay men. However, this perception of gay men having a greater number of partners occurs as a result of this, when the reality is that it's not gay men that are naturally promiscuous - it's actually a large majority of men, most of whom don't get the chance to express this.
Here's the link if anyone wants to read the full article. I'm not being deliberately inflammatory, just posting something that I thought was slightly relevant regarding mainstream perception toward a social minority.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/09/60minutes/main1385230.shtml

From my own perspective, I think I understood what Jill was saying. For every Eddie Izzard, there's a Tory MP found dead in stockings and suspenders with a satsuma in his mouth or a outrageously flamboyant and provocative CD, such as Pete Burns who recently appeared on UK's Celeb Big Brother. I don't feel that this helps the crossdressing cause, to be honest, as all that the majority of non-CD's see is that CD's are weird sexual deviants or bizarre caricatures with severe psychological issues. Very few of them are going to take the time or energy to actually research and understand it, so the unwelcome stereotype prevails.

Just my 0.02 , feel free to pick the bones out of it. :)

[Ellaine]

This whole thing about how we are seen and perceived by others is just so hard to agree on.
We comment about various sub-groups within the TG lifestyle, and fall for the sweeping generalisations that we hate to see elsewhere.

We talk about "society", as if we are not part of it. We talk about "society" as if it were a constant, and yet minimal thought is required, to realise that "society" is totally fragmented, like alphabet spaghetti!
Yes, a few strange looking disgruntled Tg's on a program like Springer, will arouse disgust from some viewers and disappointment from others; but I think most folks are not very aware, or don't wish to think about how common and serious, TG issues are. The vast majority will never realise they are seeing the very manipulated visible tip of some great iceberg.
Levels of tollerance will vary with location. It is significant that some of the least tollerant areas are where religion is a strong influence. Even non-religious folk will quote biblical lines to justify their condemnation of a man presenting his femininity. Even the most cosmopolitan areas, where TG venues prosper are fraught with danger for the unwary TG. And yet surprising levels of tollerance can be found in the most unlikely places. There are no rules, or generalisations that can be relied on, and with time, this is becoming more true.
Let's not delude ourselves that some magic day is coming, when everyone can be what they wish and dissaproval will be silenced. Each individual is playing a tiny part in how "society" develops, and mostly it is our own perceptions in our own little world that stops us living the dream. Most of the bitching about intollerance comes from closeted TG's, and is born of our own personal frustration at not being free to come out to our own families. For all our fine words we are mostly spineless, afraid to show our true colours, even to our spouse, the person we chose to share our life with!!! Too many of us still can't accept ourselves fully, because we can't understand why we have been afflicted so. Another aspect of this is that we have a mental picture of how we would like to look, and are tormented by the impossibility of that ideal.
Even when there are safe events and venues to go to, many of us just don't bother to make the effort. If all the whingers took the opportunity to get out and do it, these events and venues would be packed to the rafters.

I think our problems really have little to do with Jerry Springer, or "trannie" filth on websites. I don't believe it has much to do with being initially percieved as gay. I think it has as much to do with our appearance, and our demeanour. If you are convincing, attractive and can go about your business with a confident smile you will have little to fear. But too many of us are hoping that a bad hair do, ill-fitting, ill-chosen clothing and the demeanour of a thief will be overlooked. Well, that may be fine for you, but does nothing for the cause! How many for instance, take the trouble to have a proper make over, and find out just what can be achieved?

The old saying...."be the best you can be" is a motto worth taking to heart. "Society", whatever it is, is shallow. Looks, and first impressions are paramount. Dreamers can dream of changing that fact first.
We need to do more for ourselves, don't you think?


ruffling feathers? moi?

Ellaine

[Sharon]

. What I am saying is that there are a lot of those out there that are giving us a bad image and those are the ones that get the most attention. There's a stereotype attached to CDers, just like everything else, and those that are creating the stereo types are the ones pulling in the most attention. Am I hypocrit? Yes I am, I believe we all are. Am I perfect and do everything right? Absolutely not, I never claimed that I was nor did I ever claim that my opinions are right.

You see, it's your connection of gays with "tampon wearing exhibitionists" that is ruffling my feathers. Your neighbor could be gay. That guy who works next to you could be gay. Your minister could be gay. That stereotype, as with all other stereotypes, that you have about homosexuals just isn't true. Believe it or not, not many gays speak with a lisp and prance to Liza Minelli tunes.



The ones getting most of the attention are the gay, tampon wearing, exhibitionists who like to show their genitals. (Pardon my loose language.)

It just never ceases to amaze me that people who cry and moan about stereotypes possess so many prejudices of their own.

Oh! -- Ellaine!! -- well said. :thumbsup:

[Joy Carter]

It's not the media, the church, or the "rednecks" that's keeping us from being accepted. We're not going to be accepted because we spend so much time picking each other apart. Just like crabs in a bucket.

It's just that much easier to not be accepted when a lot of us don't even accept each other.


Regina I totaly agree with you and Jill thank for bringing up this debate. In the sixties the local paper constatly ran stories about "He_Shes" being arrested for their cross dressing (violation of city code to wear womens clothing) their names and addresses were put into the story and it was just another attempt to supress opress or otherwise degrade someone. I can see that things have improved SRS is common now and it's rare that you even see a mention of in the press. We are responsable for our own actions but we are going to be judged by the actions of a few. I have seen some sisters in interviews and was proud that they had the corurage to speak publicly. These were positive images something that does not sell news. We need to make every encounter a positive one and maybe the public as a whole will see us as the people, diverse as we may be worthy of being accepted.

Southern Redneck from Va. Joy Carter

[Jill]

I want to clarify a bit more here. Some people are still thinking that because I used gay and tampon wearing and exhibitionism in the same sentence, they think that I am saying that all gay Cders wear tampons and are exhibitionists, that's not what I am saying. I'm just saying that those that get the most attention to themselves are those doing those types of things, those are the ones that seem to talk the loudest.

I wish I hadn't posted this, I appreciate a lot of things that many of you have said in trying to bring some clarity to my comments. But because, yes, things were poorly worded, people seem to think that I am making brash, generalized statements about gay CDers when that is not the case. I believe at this point that no matter what I say, those people who are the most offended will continue to be offended and for that reason, I wish I hadn't posted. People have said a lot about Springer and yes, this is what I am talking about. CDing is not very well undertood, even by those that do it. When people don't understand something and they only get a glimpse of it, they make generalization, it's human nature. As a result, we have a very bad name and we will for a long time, I believe.

[Julie Avery]

No offense taken here, Jill. I think you generated an illuminating discussion.

[GypsyKaren]

Hi Jill

You shouldn't feel bad about posting this, it made for some interesting debate, and I think you did okay with it. The problem is that with any sexual subject, it usually runs askew (I love that word!) a bit, that's not your fault. Anyway, good thread, keep them coming.

Karen

[TGMarla]

:IWS:

Sorry, Cub fan. I couldn't resist. Anyway, I don't see what the uproar is about here. Jill makes a valid point, that there may never be a day when we, as a community unto ourselves, is accepted. The ingrained macho attitudes that are accepted as manhood in Western Society essentially make a wall that will not fall down, at least not soon. When your average non-transgendered male encounters a subject like crossdressing, his mind immediately jumps to images of limp-wristed fairies running around the streets in skimpy underwear trying to pick up straight men. Hey, like it or not, that's what we're dealing with. And since it's not a subject that many men want to deal with, that image isn't going away any time soon, no matter how many urban, educated, straight, nicely dressed crossdressers who never post their genitals on the web come forth and make themselves public.

Jill hasn't intentionally said anything wrong or offensive. She's just stating the fact that wholesale acceptance isn't coming any time soon, and states that the reasons for this are that your average member of society has a very poor mental image of what we in this community are. They aren't educated to it, and really don't wish to become so.

[Julie Avery]

Sorry, Cub fan.

Now there's a scary thought: a highly publicized bunch of crossdressing Cubs fans. Folks would start thinking all crossdressers are masochists.

[sportschick]

When read as a whole, I didn't take the original post so much as a knock on any given lifestyle choice, but a musing on the likelihood of the mainstream world accepting CD'ing without raising an eyebrow. Given the broad brush look at human nature, I agree that's unrealistic and highly unlikely, although I understand how many crossdressers would like to see it happen. Aileen and Julie York, I think we're on about the same page on this. It would be nice if you could present yourself in any way you choose and not get any reaction at all, but that's not the planet we live on. It's not for me to judge how other people should be, it's just an observation.

[BethGG]

Why would a vegetarian have a:

P.eople
E.ating
T.asty
A.nimals

Bumper sticker?
:p Very funny.

[kwebb]

I have been out of town and missed the post but it transfixed me because of a story that broke last week I think.

About the 70 year old CD who was arrested in the library for allegedly pleasuring hisself in there. What ever became of that?

All I know is I have to turn on MSNBC and catch this headline 'man with sexual fetish is now on the loose'!!

What? Now on the loose?

Man I felt so bad after hearing that.

[sherri]

The following is looonnng. Sorry. I've tried to segment it to facilitate skimming. The impatient can just jump to the last bullet list.

I have no interest in fantasies or wishful thinking. I am interested in a realistic take on this situation. I certainly have vacillated back and forth on this matter, but of late I'm thinking that the issue of acceptance may depend on some definitions and expectations.

First, let's take a look at how acceptance plays out in our culture. In the course of a single lifetime - mine - we have seen some instructive acceptance issues play out:
Racial equity has moved from an era of pervasive prejudice, hardline segregation and violent suppression to one of equality under the law, integration, a toehold in the various professions, athletic dominance, enormous influence in entertainment and a genuine measure of acceptance at the grass roots level. Prejudice, tensions and inequalities still exist, to be sure, but this aspect of our cultural landscape has been forever altered.
There was a time when to be branded gay was a ruinous thing. Sure, Tennessee Williams and Allen Ginsburg might have successfully flaunted their homosexuality within their own spheres of influence, but in mainstream America to be found out as gay would ruin your life. Since then, gays have forged a socio-political agenda, risen to prominence in the arts and entertainment and outed at the grass roots level. Homosexuality is still a matter of public debate, a target of hate crimes; in mainstream culture it can still hinder careers and social standing; but the progress toward acceptance is measurable and indisputable.
Women have radically redefined their roles in our culture, shifting from a norm of subservient homemaker to a force to be reckoned with in the workplace, politics, armed forces, the arts, sports - well, just about every aspect of human endeavor. In the process, they have staked a claim to sexual liberation, thrown off conventions in appearance and behavior, redefined men's roles and entrenched the sensibilities of political correctness so powerful that it spills over to other special interest groups. We are no longer startled by a woman in the boardroom, on the battlefield, in the anchor chair or on the Senate floor, and I might add that these role models coexist with the enduring image of woman as sex symbol.
Divorce was once a scandalous affair, seriously damaging the parties' social standing and careers. Now it scarcely causes a ripple.
Beatniks, hippies, punks, grungers, rappers and other outrageous stylists have all had their turn at flying in the face of convention and flavoring our culture in indelible ways.Analyzing what we know about these examples produces numerous object lessons:
Acceptance doesn't have to be perfect or universal in order to be significant and obtainable.
By and large the special interest groups in our examples haven't given a damn about preconceived perceptions. They considered biases to be the problem of the biased, and their agenda has been on their own terms.
Sometimes acceptance requires organized militancy and a liberal dose of hyperbole.
Acceptance entails public debate at the national level.
Acceptance always requires personal bravery and stubbornness.
Acceptance requires role models and high-visibility test cases.
Acceptance requires sufficient numbers in order to achieve momentum.
Acceptance requires repetitious exposure and encounters at the grass roots level.
Acceptance takes time.These object lessons lead me to some conclusions:
Acceptance of the transgendered in our culture is by no means a given.
A significant degree of acceptance is a given if the transgendered community is of sufficient size.
A significant degree of acceptance is a given if the transgendered community is sufficiently motivated to act cohesively and persistently.
Acceptance requires official sanction and protection. This is underway.
Acceptance will require entertainment value, as in the examples of Dame Edna and Eddy Izzard; moving personal drama with emotional ties to normalcy, as in the example of Bree in Transamerica; and, exposing ordinary people to TGs in the course of their everyday lives.
Acceptance requires repetitious exposure.
Acceptance will take time. It may take longer than some of our examples because our numbers do not measure up - women make up half our population, for instance, and thus wield enormous influence - and we do not evoke sympathy in the way, for example, blacks do, coming as they have to the forefront of social conscience from a historical legacy of imposed slavery.
TGs, though they may achieve a practical acceptance, may in our current form always be marginalized because we are extreme. From the viewpoint of the social mainstream, a CD communicates, in physical appearance and behavior, a shock value more akin to a hippie than a gay person. Our influence, however, could be huge; hippies constituted a fraction of our population, but their sensibilities affected not only their entire generation in pervasive ways, but subsequent generations as well.
Concepts of transgender will morph. Successive generations will put their own spin on it, similar to the way hippies evolved from beatniks, rappers from motown, women as national political figures from women in the workplace, etc. These evolutionary versions invariably involve a blending of seminal postures with other socio-political movements, and are often not without a measure of militancy. Mainstream integration may be more about androgyny than gender-swapping, but it will sustain a tolerance for the extremes at either end of the spectrum. I think this evolution is already underway.So, a realistic appraisal of our situation depends on some definitions and expectations:
Juding from our examples, acceptance may not be a matter of acceptance so much as it is a matter of demanding rights and achieving an acceptable level of tolerance. But for the sake of convenience, we'll use the term acceptance for our definitions.
What follows assumes we act with sufficient bravado and in sufficient numbers.
If you define acceptance as being able to interact informally with the general public without calamity, we're closer than we may think. For the sake of illustration, we might equate this with a black person being able to sit anywhere on the bus without getting beat up or arrested. This is definitely doable in one generation, probably in a decade. Pockets of resistance and occasional flareups are to be expected.
If you define acceptance as achieving equal rights, staking a claim to tolerance in public venues, in the workplace, etc, and encountering a tempered atmosphere of goodwill with a minimum of notoriety, I think this too is achievable in one generation, with some mopping up to do in the next generation. This is a level of acceptance comparable to what gays have achieved to date.
If you define acceptance as wholesale integration, tolerance to the point of normalcy, common place assimilation in our personal relationships, even a quantifiable impact on cultural sensibilities in ways the culture feels good about, then we're talking several generations. What's more, a considerable amount of morphing will have taken place; crossdressers as we now know them may be little more than quaint relics.

[kwebb]

IMHO, what is holding us back as a whole in a word is: FEAR.

And in my case, not just fear of judgement by society, but fear of one's own innermost being.

[KathrynW]

IMHO, what is holding us back as a whole in a word is: FEAR.
And in my case, not just fear of judgement by society, but fear of one's own innermost being.
Fear of the "slippery slope".
Fear of wanting to be more & more femme.
Fear of not knowing "when" to stop.
I know the feeling, and frankly, it scares the hell outa me... :straightface: