The Old "Reversed Situation" Argument

[maggie]

On these and other forums, the question is repeatedly asked, "Why are wives so intolerant of their husbands' cross-dressing?" The response that I repeatedly see, again and again, is the following excuse for such intolerance:

"Just imagine the situation was reversed. You came home and found your wife strapping her chest, cutting her hair short, wearing a false mustache, stuffed jockstrap, and men's clothing, and declaring that she wants to express her 'inner man.' How would you feel about that? How would you feel if she wanted to go out as a man in public with you? How would you like to be seen in public appearing to be holding hands with another man?" And so on.

Often this excuse is quoted by cross-dressers' wives and significant others; sometimes it is put forth by cross-dressers themselves.

Somehow it is assumed that this is a final, irrefutable answer to our complaints. It is assumed that our universal response would be: "Yuk! Of course we couldn't tolerate our wives doing that! We want our wives to be real women, not men! After all, we're not gay!" Therefore, we have no right to complain about our wives' intolerance of our own cross-dressing.

Well, I for one don't buy into this argument.

First, the argument assumes that I would have the same reaction as a stereotypical "macho" homophobic husband. But that's not who I am. I have now accepted the fact that I am a transgendered woman. I understand that gender identity is immutably established even before a person is born. Because I love my wife as a person, and because I myself have known the pain of gender dysphoria, I would be understanding and accepting of her condition. I would not compound her pain by making her feel guilty and ashamed of herself. I would not be cruel, rejecting, and vindictive.

Second, if my wife had her own gender dysphoria (which she does not), I would expect that she would have a better understanding and acceptance of mine. Furthermore, I would be happy to accompany her while she was dressed as a man - as long as I could be the woman!

Although the "reverse situation" example might help some of us better understand our wives' negative reaction, I strongly object to wives' using it as an excuse for their intolerance. It's similar to one group justifying its intolerance of another group on the grounds that the intolerance is mutual. Such an attitude does nothing to advance mutual understanding and harmony.

Maggie

(P.S. Please excuse the fact that I also posted this on another forum. I am interested in seeing which post gets the most responses.)

[Nikki Dee]

But what if you hadn't known the pain of gender dysphoria.?...or perhaps had never heard of such a thing....and surely you must come at this from that standpoint....would you THEN be understanding and accepting.??
Nikki.

[Marla S]

Although the "reverse situation" example might help some of us better understand our wives' negative reaction, I strongly object to wives' using it as an excuse for their intolerance. It's similar to one group justifying its intolerance of another group on the grounds that the intolerance is mutual. Such an attitude does nothing to advance mutual understanding and harmony.

I think "intolerance" is a bit harsh.
A CD has (needs) years and decades to learn to accept himself (if ever completaly), going through guilt, shame, doubts, and needs to sort out his self and its relation to the society.
Why should a SO differ here. They usually have less time to learn to deal with it. So I think an averting attitude is more than natural.
I'd say, to have a supporting SO is a gift and not a implicitness.

[christine55]

In my twenty's and thirties while I did have very strong desires to crossdress I did not have much opportunity. To cover my feminine desires which I was ashamed of I acted very male on the outside. I drank and drugged very much to excess. Of course had facial hair which was usually not neatly trimmed. I smoked unfiltered cigarettes, wore work boots, etc.
If I had gotten married at the time, any woman attracted to me would have been attracted to that man, instead of to the woman/man hidden inside.
Some girls appreciate us for what we are. Some girls prefer very masculine men. Myself, I prefer feminine women. I certainly would not be attracted to a mannish woman.
It is truly asking a bit much to ask a girl to accept our girly side after years of being so masculine on the outside. I don't mean this as being condemning, it is so hard for us to be open about this side of us with others. I find it sad reading of all the problems other cd'ers are having because of failure to be honest with so's early in the relationship.
In spite of the fact of it being so hard for us to come out early the fault is not the so's. If she begins to become accepting and open, great, but some people just cannot handle that kind of thing. She simply got blindsided. Don't accuse your SO of being unaccepting. Think of all the things you would be unaccepting of if you found out after 15 years of marriage.
All cases are of course not the same. I have read here of so's who seem to be using their husbands cd'ing as an excuse to be unhappy.
Hugs, Christine

[Julie Avery]

Maggie, I think you've done a great job of thinking that through. I, too, have felt that "something's not right" with the argument you're taking down, but haven't come near to thinking about it as clearly as you have.

I don't agree that "I understand that gender identity is immutably established even before a person is born." I don't think it's necessary to make that claim, in order to validate my gender issues (and maybe you don't either).

Thank you for this very thoughtful post, and I hope that anyone who's made the argument that's being criticisized takes it, not as a personal slight, but as a thougtful interaction.

[Katrina]

...It is truly asking a bit much to ask a girl to accept our girly side after years of being so masculine on the outside...

You got it right! As much as I'd like to say that my GF should completely accept Katrina, she was originally attracted to the guy she met. I was not outwardly expressing my feminine side when we met - I was very much a guy. Albeit, I was a somewhat sensitive and caring guy, but I was a guy none the less.

[JeanneF]

Personally, I don't find it unreasonable at all for a wife to object to her husband dressing. I would equate it to buying a house...if you bought a house, and despite having a thorough inspection prior to purchase, you find that the previous owner failed to disclose something major, you'd be pretty upset. A wife who finds out after x number of years that her husband likes to dress like a girl, well, she has the right to object to it.

I guess I'm reasonably lucky, in that I've been able to accept this part of me without all the guilt or other issues that a lot of girls go through, but I really can't comprehend the idea of marrying someone without disclosing this to your wife. It's not like it's an issue that's going to go away. Most of us have been this way since our teenage years if not earlier.

I've made it a point to let girlfriends know about this side of me reasonably early on in the relationship. I've had a few cut and run, and others stick around and become very close friends, despite the romantic relationship not working out. I think it's only fair to do this...like Christine said; "think of all the things you would be unaccepting of if you found out after 15 years of marriage".

We all want people to be supportive and accepting, but there's a big difference between having your buddies accept that you like to wear a skirt and having the woman you've had children with accept that you've been hiding a pretty significant part of you from her for years.

[maggie]

I think that some of you girls are missing the point of my post. I am not denying the right of our wives and SO's to feel upset about our cross-dressing. I am just saying that this is an issue that has to be dealt with directly by both parties - including the wife or SO - rather than allowing them to hide behind excuses.

I am questioning the validity of the "reverse situation" argument, because it attempts to justify the wife's/SO's refusal to understand and deal with her intolerance by incorrectly assuming that we would be just as intolerant toward our wives/SOs if we discovered them cross-dressing as men. As I have pointed out, it is not necessarily true that we ourselves would be so intolerant.

Granted that our wives fell in love with us on the assumption that we were real, 100 per cent masculine men. But let's imagine that, instead of Gender Identity Disorder, we were discovered to have a genetic condition that caused us to become disabled as we got older. Certainly, this is not what the wives had bargained for. Certainly they would be disappointed and upset. Nevertheless, many would probably stay with us either through love, a sense of obligation, or because they would feel guilty about abandoning us.

Now, let's imagine that your wife decides to split. "How can you abandon me like this?" you ask. And she replies, "Well, you would abandon me if I became disabled!" In effect, this would be a way for her to justify and to avoid acknowledging her own selfish feelings by projecting her selfish feelings on you - without regard to how you would really feel or react in such a situation. Not only are you rejected and abandoned - your own feelings are ignored and disrespected and, on top of that, you also get to bear all the blame and responsibility!! Sound familiar??

To summarize, I'm not denying their right to feel the way they feel about our cross-dressing. I'm just saying that the "reverse situation" argument is dishonest, unfounded, and unhelpful.

Maggie

[Yes I am]

Not all of us crossdressers have GID, and I'd wager that most everyone of us crossdressers has some idea about their desire to dress up like a girl before getting involved in a relationship or even married. Perhaps some of us would be willing to accept our SO/wife suddenly revealing that they like to dress up like a man with fake stubble and a hairy body and what-not, but I would be willing to bet money that the vast majority would not. And quite frankly, your comparing a husbands deception towards his wife concerning his crossdressing to the onset of an unknown dibilitating disease is insane. The bottom line is if you kept it a secret, especially for years on end, your SO is completely 100% justified in their anger and rejection, as you did rope them in under fraudulent circumstances.

[TGMarla]

Wrong! The argument is quite valid, and an argument that compares progressive disablility to gender dysphoria is invalid as well.

First off, you are only appoaching the theoretical situation of your wife's gender dysphoria from a viewpoint where you also have the same mental malady.
I would expect that she would have a better understanding and acceptance of mine. Furthermore, I would be happy to accompany her while she was dressed as a man - as long as I could be the woman! But most of the women in our lives do NOT have gender dysphoria, neither are they educated about it. They assume that it is an optional situation, where the crossdresser has control over his actions, that he chooses to crossdress, and can stop at any time should he choose to do so. This is the root of the reaction most women have towards crossdressing in the first place, that of revulsion. They wonder why the man she is involved with would choose to do this thing.

Furthermore, as the SO would see it, a progressive disability is something that one has no control over. One cannot stop becomming more disabled if one has a progressive disability. As they would see it, you do have the option to stop your crossdressing. And on a very elemental level, she is right. Simply stop. It's naive and uneducated, but it is nonetheless true.

Now, if you were a "normal" man, and did not have gender issues, and you were to come home to find your wife with a prosthesis and a false moustache, how would you feel? How is that not a valid argument? I argue that it's 100% the very same thing. The only difference, as I see it, is that feminine attire can be very sensuous, soft, and beautiful. Men's clothing is generally a bit rough. Even a tailored suit speaks of power and control, two elements that we often reject when we engage in crossdressing.

As to your first argument, that you would be understanding in such a situation, I argue that this is only so because you are in the reverse situation. Were you not a crossdresser yourself, you might not have any such reaction to her were you to find that she secretly loved male emulation. If your background did not include a familiarity with gender dysphoria, you might well react with that same revulsion that so many of us find in our wives.

[maggie]

It appears that we are viewing this matter on two different levels and failing to communicate. I can't for the life of me understand why some of you girls are defending the "reverse situation" argument or why you find it appealing. I myself find the argument to be offensive and regressive.

It may be true that most wives and SOs don't understand what Gender Identity Disorder is, and that they erroneously believe it is simply a "choice." I didn't understand it myself until recently. I was in no way dishonest when I went into my marriage, because I myself was ignorant about the true nature of my condition. I honestly believed my cross-dressing was in the past, and I was able to repress it for more than 30 years during our courtship and marriage. Then, about three years ago during a time of great stress in my life, the barrier broke and I was forced to confront truths about myself that I could no longer ignore.

Just because our wives and SO's are ignorant about GID doesn't mean that we should perpetuate their ignorance by giving credence to ignorant arguments that do nothing to further their understanding (or ours).

Enough said.

Maggie

[Yes I am]

Even if you did repress your desire to dress for thirty years, I bet you never discussed the struggle of keeping it suppressed with your wife, or told her about how you "used to" dress. Can you really not understand how your wife might be distraught about her husband suddenly and without any warning starting to dress up like a girl? Imagine for a moment that you never had any desire to crossdress ever before in your entire life, and you suddenly find out after decades of intimately knowing your wife(or so you thought) that she all of a sudden out of nowhere has the need to dress up completely like a man, honestly, you'd flip-out, you know you would. Your rejection of the "reverse situation" says more about your complete and total lack of empathy for your wife's current situation than it does about any alleged "intolerance" on her part, think about it.

[TGMarla]

But the argument is not at all regressive. My statements were to put things into perspective from her point of view. The fact that a lack of education on the matter may or may not be at the root of it is not the point. If you did not have any education at all, and found your spouse to be engaging in such activities, you might well have a similar reaction to the situation.

How is that regressive or invalid?

[maggie]

Okay, let me say this one more time:

Yes, I can understand why my wife and other wives and SO's would probably be upset upon learning that their man is a cross-dresser.

Yes, I think that cross-dressers should be understanding and sympathetic regarding their wife's/SO's feelings and reactions.

At the outset I conceded that the "reverse situation" argument might help some cross-dressers be more understanding of their wives' perspective. Maybe there are a lot of cross-dressers who need to be reminded of this. Okay, fine. But beyond that limited value, I think this type of argument has the potential for abuse, as I have pointed out.

While we should be understanding about our wives' feelings, I think that our wives also have an obligation to make at least some effort to understand our condition. They shouldn't be allowed to avoid this obligation simply by saying "How would you like it if I cross-dressed?" (Ironically, my wife and most American women wear trousers and other traditionally male types of clothing about 90 per cent of the time - but that's another matter.)

Don't we also have a right to understanding?

Maggie

[Aileen]

Well, I have no desire to become a woman. I just want to dress up occasionally. So if I came home and my hypothetical wife was dressed like a man with a false beard, I would say, "Do what you want, but I can't be intimate with you this way." Which I think would be fine if she said that to me, or even if she never wanted to see me dressed up.

But I would prefer to not get married, so it's all academic.

[Yes I am]

Okay, let me say this one more time:

Yes, I can understand why my wife and other wives and SO's would probably be upset upon learning that their man is a cross-dresser.

Yes, I think that cross-dressers should be understanding and sympathetic regarding their wife's/SO's feelings and reactions.

At the outset I conceded that the "reverse situation" argument might help some cross-dressers be more understanding of their wives' perspective. Maybe there are a lot of cross-dressers who need to be reminded of this. Okay, fine. But beyond that limited value, I think this type of argument has the potential for abuse, as I have pointed out.

While we should be understanding about our wives' feelings, I think that our wives also have an obligation to make at least some effort to understand our condition. They shouldn't be allowed to avoid this obligation simply by saying "How would you like it if I cross-dressed?" (Ironically, my wife and most American women wear trousers and other traditionally male types of clothing about 90 per cent of the time - but that's another matter.)

Don't we also have a right to understanding?

Maggie


Why is she obligated to accept this? Having an understanding SO is not a right, it is a blessing and it is completely dependent upon openness and honesty. Imagine if someone you loved had kept such a big secret from you throughout your relationship and even through marriage, it's a devastating thing. You're being too defensive, you've hurt your wife and you need to deal with that.

[GypsyKaren]

Hi Maggie

Good thread. I'm sorry I'm kinda late with jumping in, not enough hours in the day. To the matter at hand; if Kat were transgendered, I know I'd be as understanding with her as she is with me, it would be quite hypocritical of me to do otherwise. Also, I'm a very open minded girl, and I accept people for who and what they are. As a matter of fact, we've gone out a couple of times with her wearing men's clothes, it was quite a hoot for sure, and we had fun. I've said this before, I'll say it again; I don't care if Kat wants to walk around in a scuba suit, as long as it's pink.

An interesting thing I learned from my tranny doc the other day, about how boys get to be tg and such. There's studies out now that suggest some sort of trauma to the fetus at 5 weeks causes this to happen...who knows. I gave up trying to figure it all out, the why am I what, the who am I where and such. I just decided that whatever, I'm still a nice person, and that's a pretty cool place to be. Have a nice day!

Karen

[joannejoanne]

Hi All. :happy:

Quite interesting this topic, though i have to admit that i have been married for 32 years now and have been cross dressing for 35 years. My wife has known from almost the first day we met and has fully supported me. We even go shopping together. Apart from the initial tears when i first confessed (i hate that word). she has never questioned me even when times got difficult. I would also just like to point out in case any one was wandering is that she has never got any sexual satisfaction from this.And for the last 5 years now that the kids have flown i crossdress (hate that word too), at all times when at home.I know i am lucky to this end and am very grateful to her. It must be difficult difficult when the other partner does not accept one.But maybe honesty from the start helps.:happy:

[karen fox]

Beautifully put!
If only dreams came true!

[Lilith Moon]

As I have pointed out, it is not necessarily true that we ourselves would be so intolerant.

Granted that our wives fell in love with us on the assumption that we were real, 100 per cent masculine men. But let's imagine that, instead of Gender Identity Disorder, we were discovered to have a genetic condition that caused us to become disabled as we got older. Certainly, this is not what the wives had bargained for. Certainly they would be disappointed and upset. Nevertheless, many would probably stay with us either through love, a sense of obligation, or because they would feel guilty about abandoning us.
I'm just saying that the "reverse situation" argument is dishonest, unfounded, and unhelpful.

You have expressed how I feel much better than I could.

But we don't have to "imagine" that we have no choice about our condition. It may not be hereditary but I'm convinced that it is congenital from the number of CD-ers who say that they had gender issues from an early age. In reality, we do not have a choice about wanting to crossdress.

There seems to be an assumption among many SOs that it is just a matter of choice, or preference, and also that many of us have been less than honest about our true selves by not "confessing" early on. My feelings about this are particularly strong right now because I am in a period of subtly enforced abstainence and I feel as if I am dying inside. My choice is to dress, or to suffer in agony. Huh, some choice.

Regarding the "honesty" issue...we crossdressers were not born as expert gender therapists, we do not automatically understand what it is all about. Despite dressing from an early age, I did not understand myself or the strength of my needs. I honestly thought that my love and sexual feelings toward my SO would overcome everything else...forever. As far as I was concerned my CD-ing was all in the past, along with my previous girlfriends. Of course, I did not expect my wife to furnish complete details of her previous romances and sexual encounters either. It was all in the past, we were starting out together. And this is exactly what happened...for a while. The ensuing secrets, agony and painful confessions are too well known by many of us to need repeating here. 0.02

[Bev06 GG]

Okay, let me say this one more time:

Yes, I can understand why my wife and other wives and SO's would probably be upset upon learning that their man is a cross-dresser.

Yes, I think that cross-dressers should be understanding and sympathetic regarding their wife's/SO's feelings and reactions.

At the outset I conceded that the "reverse situation" argument might help some cross-dressers be more understanding of their wives' perspective. Maybe there are a lot of cross-dressers who need to be reminded of this. Okay, fine. But beyond that limited value, I think this type of argument has the potential for abuse, as I have pointed out.

While we should be understanding about our wives' feelings, I think that our wives also have an obligation to make at least some effort to understand our condition. They shouldn't be allowed to avoid this obligation simply by saying "How would you like it if I cross-dressed?" (Ironically, my wife and most American women wear trousers and other traditionally male types of clothing about 90 per cent of the time - but that's another matter.)

Don't we also have a right to understanding?

Maggie
Hi Maggie,

Hope this doesn't come over wrong, but I also wish people would stop dragging women who wear traditional male clothing into the equation. Im one of those women who likes jeans etc, however, I do not like the feel of mens clothing, I do not shove golf balls down my underpants, and neither do I try to grow face hair, in a bid to look like a man. Infact I make a great effort everyday to apply makeup and make myself look as attractive as I can do. Jeans are worn purely on a practical level, they are comfortable, warm, and not as debilitating as a skirt or dress when your running around after your kids.. The same can hardly be said for a man wearing a frock can it?.
BEVXXX

[Jesse69]

The reverse argument is a strong argument. For me, I don't like a butch woman who loves wearing men's clothes, I like a totally femme women. But I could tolerate her if she occasionally wanted to dress like a man, and I'd be into gender switch with her.

[BeckyAnderson]

I think "intolerance" is a bit harsh.
A CD has (needs) years and decades to learn to accept himself (if ever completaly), going through guilt, shame, doubts, and needs to sort out his self and its relation to the society.
Why should a SO differ here. They usually have less time to learn to deal with it. So I think an averting attitude is more than natural.
I'd say, to have a supporting SO is a gift and not a implicitness.

The difference is really quite evident. As we digress back in time less and less was known about crossdressing. As we digress back in time fewer and fewer of us were visible and we thought we were alone to suffer our "sickness." The argument that we had our whole life to adjust is actually not true. It's only in recent years that information has become available which has helped us to come to terms with our dressing. Today an SO can adjust much more quickly than we as CD'ers did (the older you are the more this is true) because of the wealth of information available to them on the Internet, through organizations, discussion and publications. All they need do is to look beyond the dictates of society and open their mind and heart to learning and understanding. Crossdressing isn't a habit we picked up in life like smoking or drinking or drugs, it's something that seems pre-established before birth. And as such, it really shouldn't be treated differently than any other genetic outcome.

Just my 0.02

Hugs,
Becky

[christine55]

You can hope your SO will be accepting after not knowing but emotional acceptance and intellectual acceptance are two different things. Some woman have a deep seated emotional/sexual aversion for men dressed and or acting like women. If she was mislead in the beginning you can't blame her and just say she's a bigot.
Hugs, Christine

[Bernice]

Maggie: Great post. Very thoughtful. Glad to have you here with us! I suspect we babble ignorantly because none of us on this forum have ever come home to find a wife engaging in serious male impersonation out of genuine gender identity issues. We don't really know how we would react. Those of us with such issues of our own are only potentially apt to be more understanding.

TGMarla: you still speak so eloquently for me!

Yes I am: Objection: Argumentative!

Bev06 GG: I'm sure you are a wonderful person, however, you are clearly not a crossdresser. You merely exercise the clothing options that modern society has granted you. In your opinion, pants are less debilitating. For me, they are not. I prefer a kilt or skirt. But I AM a crossdresser. It is more than just the clothes. For strict non-crossdressers, the analogy holds. Non-crossdressing men are not thrilled with women who prefer pants all the time, and kilts for men are generally acceptable to non-crossdressing women only in Scotland or on very special occasions elsewhere.

BeckyAnderson: I agree that more information about crossdressing is available nowadays, and that this is tremendously helpful. However, TGMarla is right that crossdressers who conceal such from their spouses do have more time to deal with their own self esteem and gender identity issues. For the spouse/SO who learns unexpectedly, there is very little time to come to grips with the situation without acting on the urge to flee the situation altogether.

Hugs,

Bernice

[Delila]

if my wife was like that then i would support her all the way. I mean really its alot more acceptable for two men to be together in public to most people than for a woman and a cd.

[Marla S]

@Becky
It is true that there is a lot more information available today, but I think it needs more than just information. You need to be prepared to assimilate this information. And despite all the information available today there is still a significant difference. A CD usually is well prepared to assimilate the information whereas a SO usually is not. Another point is the selection of the information. You will find information that deals with CDing like a disease and suggests there might be a cure, others see it as a natural phenomenon that can be integrated in your life. Depending of your live history you might tend to prefer the one or other. My point is. Despite the information available today a CD is usually far ahead of his SO due to his live history. Depending on the SOs social and cultural background it might be to far.

This said, I have to agree with Maggie in that that a SO should a least be willing to learn about and understand CDing, whatever the result will be. So, the right answer to the reversed argument "How would you like it if I cross-dressed?" would be: I'd try to understand it, get me information and learn about it.
But besides this, there is another point a CDer has to be aware of that makes acceptance not easier.
As you seek for acceptance in order to come out of the closet you will pull your SO into the closet. Maybe one has to accept that our SOs don't want a life in the closet as we don't.

[maggie]

This has been a very interesting discussion. I enjoy, and am rarely offended by, an honest and open debate. I get to compare notes with other people, learn different viewpoints, and have an opportunity to refine or modify my ideas and means of expressing them.

I guess what I'm feeling is a deep sense of sadness and frustration at not being free to come out and express my gender identity and be accepted for who I am. After a lifetime of struggle, denial, repression, self-loathing, and searching, I have finally come to the realization that I did not choose to be TG, and that there is probably nothing I can do to change it. Although I have sometimes thought of suicide, I would rather find a reasonable alternative before totally giving up on life.

I suppose I must resign myself to the fact that my wife will never be able to accept my female persona - and that she won't even try. It is disheartening to know that the man she loves is not really "me" but a facade, and that the real me inside is something she will always find repulsive.

Maggie