Trying to explain why I asked about male friends....

[DawnLabelle]

First off, thanks a ton to everyone who answered, I really appreciate the sheer amount of support and great input that threads get on this forum.

Anyway, I'll try to explain why I asked this perhaps seemingly odd question. Be warned, im still in a very confused place right now in my life and I tend to ramble, so bear with me if you will :).

Oh, and to answer my own question, my closest friends have generally been female, although overall I have a mix of male / female friends. Right now one of my closest friends is male and knows about Dawn, although he doesn't wanna see me en femme, which I respect.

ok, ramble time. At the beginning of the year I ended my last relationship (which lasted a year) with a girl who knew about Dawn and was fairly supportive, and im still pretty shook up about it. I've been in therapy since last november trying to deal with my own depression, trans feelings and confusion, and overall insatisfaction and hopelessness with respect to my own life. From what my therapist has learned about me, and the traits that I show in relationships with others, he suggested that I pick up a self help book called No More Mr. Nice Guy (any chance in hell someone in here has read it?). I burned through it, and saw myself in many if not most of its pages, how I was raised, how I relate to women and other men, how my relationships tend to progress, my sense of insatisfaction with my previous relationship, etc etc. One of those books which could have been written about you when you read it, almost creepy in certain ways. Anyway, one of the prime points that it makes is that Nice Guys like myself need to reconnect with their male sides, spend more time with "the guys", stop being all their female friends' "best friend" and shoulder to cry on, basically stop being ashamed or afraid of being a guy in order to be happy and proud with who you are.

My issue with all of this, is while I definetly belive in the underlying message of the book (be true to thyself, dont hide who you are, ask for what you want and what you deserve, dont give to get, give selflessly and receive graciously) it also screwed me up in certain ways because well, it made me question my self and the female side of me. It showed me many things that I was doing wrong in my previous relationship that only now I realize and its helping me get over alot of my issues with my parents, and since it was right in so many ways, I keep questioning if Dawn is good for me in the end, or is she holding me back from having a real and healthy relationship with other men and finally a spouse (be it a woman or a man, still haven't gotten that part completely figured out yet to tell the truth although im pretty sure im straight with some bi-tendancies). Basically, im so unhappy with myself that instead of properly dealing with me and my issues, I change myself into a sexy (well *I* like to think so, hehehe) woman who people will automatically treat better (cause women are more taken care of and are socially more permitted to be different) and want to make happy, kind of like a cry for help.

Or is a big part of my unhappiness because I haven't let Dawn out more and because I still don't accept her?

Lately, and during the second half of my last relationship and since its ended, I've been trying to explore Dawn more, and yeah sometimes I feel ok about it, like last week when I went out en femme for the first time, or when I finally got the nerve to buy a nice top and skirt set in a store (as opposed to online shopping), then like a flip of a switch I'll go back to being sad and down and I'll blame it on her, or more in general, of being different.

When I was with my ex, she never outright said that she had a real problem with it. She found me out by snooping on my computer (she had serious trust issues) and finally confronted me with it 6 months into the relationship, and for a while it was ok. I moved my femme clothes from boxes into my own bedroom, and even now I have my dresses in my closet, lingerie in my underwear drawer right next to my boxers and athletic socks, just the heels dont have anywhere to go so some are out, rest still in their box. She told me on a few occasions that we should take a day to make me up completely, then in the same breath would say that we should wait cause she isn't ready to see me completely en femme (which I respected). She seemed fine going to rocky horror with me in drag, yet when those plans fell through and I suggested we do something anyways which gets me out of the house in drag and she exploded at me. She was cool with getting rid of most of my body hair but didn't want me to shave my legs cause "she still wanted to feel like I was a man" even though she would be the first to say that something as trivial as leg hair does not make a man. She helped me shop for makeup and gave me application tips at times, yet there never seemed time for us to take a day for Dawn. She bought me lingerie for xmas, and I wore it to bed a few nights later and we had great sex, then she got upset the next day and asked if I would always need to be dressed. Basically I got a hell of alot of mixed messages which simply added to my confusion. It was like the more I experimented like she had urged me to, the worse things got between us, so even though we had LOTS of other problems, I tend to place alot of the blame on Dawn or on me being different.

ok, now im rambling. Anyway, I know that I need to stop hiding away from Dawn, and I need to let her out to see what will happen. But I'm really scared of not being able to go back incase my life simply gets worse. And more than that, I'm worried that if all of this really is some twisted type of defense mechanism that my psyche created which will guarantee that I'll be miserable and solitary, that I dont want to give in to it (kind of like if an alcoholic has one drink it could be the beginning of the end to him even though he is only happy when drunk), after all, I've had lifelong problems with addiction to various drugs, is Dawn simply another drug masking my true problems?. Is she actually an unhealthy way of dealing with my own issues?.

So in the end, I asked about the male friends as a way of testing the book, are all us t-girls simply scared of being our own type of man?, have we been feminized all our lives to the point of no longer being able to associate with other men?. Or is this really something that is part of me and unless I can deal with it and become ok with it then ill always be miserable.

Hope I didn't depress anyone too much or offend, im just a lonely girl looking for answers to my life.

Love
Dawn

[Jennaie]

Dawn:

I don't think there is anyone here who actually qualifies as a gender therapist, and I think that your questions are very in depth and belong within the walls of that type of therapy.

I would not be comfortable offering you any other type of advice or opinions on this.

I do think that time and patience along with good counseling will help you find the answers your seeking.

Jennaie :be:

[DawnLabelle]

Dawn:

I don't think there is anyone here who actually qualifies as a gender therapist, and I think that your questions are very in depth and belong within the walls of that type of therapy.

I would not be comfortable offering you any other type of advice or opinions on this.

I do think that time and patience along with good counseling will help you find the answers your seeking.

Jennaie :be:

Hi Jennaie,

Thanks for your reply, who knwos, maybe I should see a gender therapist. Its not something Ive ever really considered for a few reasons, (a) apart from when I was just entering puberty, I've never had a burning desire to change my sex (during puberty I did alot of fantasizing about being a girl), (b) when im in a good mood and not depressed, im quite ok being a guy, just like I feel ok when dolling myself up, and (c) my therapist who has diagnosed many true TS'es (and sent them to appropriate gender counselling) believes that I am not TS, just a very confused and insecure CD'er. Either way, thanks for your input and I will definetly keep this in mind. Hell, whats the worse that could happen, the gender counsellor says nah, youre just a confused CD'er ;)? and im out a few bucks for the visit.

I've always said I just want to know who I really am, gay, straight, cd'er, transsexual, whatever, so I can work on building a life which is true to myself.

Dawn

[Yes I am]

Your last girlfriend who found you out, was she the only girl you've gone out with that knew about your dressing? Have you ever been in a romantic relationship where you've told your partner from the get-go about your dressing?

[DawnLabelle]

Your last girlfriend who found you out, was she the only girl you've gone out with that knew about your dressing? Have you ever been in a romantic relationship where you've told your partner from the get-go about your dressing?

No and no, she was the second long term GF that knew about it and as I said, she found me out at about 6 months into it. I know that was too long, but it had been over a year since I had even dressed. I told my last long term GF after 4 years (I was 22 at the time) and she never accepted it and used it against me quite a bit.

For my next relationship, assuming I have one, I plan on fessing up very early.

Dawn

[size7satin]

Only you know what is best in your heart. Many of the people here have been through the confusion & feelings when it comes to just exactly what the whys & how comes of why we are what we are. Everyone approches it diffrently.

We are feed what we are suppost to become in our lifes from the moment of birth. Then we fight ourselfs trying to "portray" what people think we should be. Only ending up fighting ourself to become what we want to be. Keeping "ourself" enclosed for fear of what we may become..... or becoming whatever we are inside to find out thats really wasn't what made us truely happy.

I hope I made a little sense...

S7S

[Yes I am]

No and no, she was the second long term GF that knew about it and as I said, she found me out at about 6 months into it. I know that was too long, but it had been over a year since I had even dressed. I told my last long term GF after 4 years (I was 22 at the time) and she never accepted it and used it against me quite a bit.

For my next relationship, assuming I have one, I plan on fessing up very early.

Dawn

Yeah, the first g/f I came out to, I did so well into the relationship, her reaction was not unlike the one you described in your first post of this thread.I just starting seeing a new girl, and I have already told her everything about my dressing. I think she was more taken aback by my honesty than by my proclivities. She claims to understand it and we've been a bit intimate and she didn't flinch when she felt my clean shaven legs and torso, though she did later tell me that she thinks body hair is sexy. I don't know if this current relationship will work out or not, I hope it does but we've only been seeing each other for about four weeks. But I would most definitely recommend that you do make the fact that you dress, and the nature of your dressing, very clear to any potential future romantic partners. It's so wonderfully liberating to be operating on the basis of truth from the onset.

[Rikkicn]

Confused cd'er, probably true. It makes sense. I imagine that everyone of us have spent huge amounts of time thinking all kinds of thoughts about being a cross dresser. This tends to lead to confusion.
I've spent hours and hours trying to fiugre out how this happened?, What am I doing? This is a little nuts isn't it? These kinds of thoughts. Over and over and over.
I think it was interesting but not very valuable. I couldn't find an "excuse" for my behavior. I was doing something, that most peope in our culture thinks is perverted. I thought that for a long time.
Therapy, reading self-help books, spirituality books, self help seminars and retreats was the path I took to understanding and improving my life. I've spent at least an hour a day for the last 20 years and it has been the most wonderful thing I've ever done.
Even with all that it took a long time and lots of self care to release myself from the shame. Shame is a side effect cross dressing as well as moments of joyous and wonderous fun.
When you refer to Dawn in the third person, it first sounded strange and then familiar. It reminded me that I used to refer to myself that way, too. There came a time however, when I realized Rikki and I had become one and the same being.
What I'm trying to say is it takes lots of work to be a successful cross dresser. Success in that they reach a point of feeling really good about themselves, They have accepted cding into their lives and begin to focus on the blessings it brings to our lives. Success also means having all your cding emotional needs being met and supported.
Dawn is not the "shadow side" of your personality. She is not bad or evil. She is not the casue of your problems. She is a divine part of your being.
YES by all means go to therapy. Learn how to become a good consumer of those kinds of services.
Read every thing else by the author of the book you mention, read everything on that subject and see where that takes you.
Go back to school and take a course in YourSelf. Make it your life's work to find out who you really are.
Thanks for you post. I thought it was of the best I've seen.

Rikki

[Ms. Donna]

Hi Dawn,

The following are my personal opinions and shoud not be misconstrued as otherwise.

As a rule, I think most self help books are crap - one size fits some solutions to people looking for specific answers. The only people they help those who write them. I'm surprised that a therapist would send you down that path.

If you are going to continue in therapy, you need to find one who can address gender issues. I have yet to meet any CD/TG individual who was like we are due to not being in touch with our 'masculine' side. Fact is, many CDers have very 'masculine' sides to compliment their feminine selves. Your therapist's approach indicates that he hasn't a clue in this department.

Realize that seeing a therapist who can properly speak to gender issues does not mean you are looking to transition and you do not need to be a TS to see a gender specialist.

IMHO, we are who we are - I doubt we have 'feminized' the man out of us. Sound like a typical cisgendered POV of CDers and TG male in general. Find someone who can speak to all your issues with equal authority.

If you haven't done so, have a look at my How I Did It (http://crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26327) thread for some idea of how I worked through all of this.


Love & Stuff,
Donna

[DawnLabelle]

When you refer to Dawn in the third person, it first sounded strange and then familiar. It reminded me that I used to refer to myself that way, too. There came a time however, when I realized Rikki and I had become one and the same being.
What I'm trying to say is it takes lots of work to be a successful cross dresser. Success in that they reach a point of feeling really good about themselves, They have accepted cding into their lives and begin to focus on the blessings it brings to our lives. Success also means having all your cding emotional needs being met and supported.
Dawn is not the "shadow side" of your personality. She is not bad or evil. She is not the casue of your problems. She is a divine part of your being.
YES by all means go to therapy. Learn how to become a good consumer of those kinds of services.
Read every thing else by the author of the book you mention, read everything on that subject and see where that takes you.
Go back to school and take a course in YourSelf. Make it your life's work to find out who you really are.
Thanks for you post. I thought it was of the best I've seen.
Rikki

Hi Rikki,

Thanks for your words, it gives me a glimmer of hope :). I realize that I was speaking of my femme side in the third person during my post, and I dont think I usually do that, but I was trying to separate the two sides for the purpose of all that gushing. I guess I tend to think of Phil and Dawn as separate when im down in the dumps, yet when im in a decent mood they combine in my head.

I think that little breakthrough came (the not seeing myself as two separate people) a couple months ago in therapy, it seems I slip back away from it time to time. A thought just popped into my head that day which was "im a crossdresser, wether or not im en femme, its part of me all the time", of course I explained my thought to my shrink with the (negative) analogy to an alcoholic, how he is one wether or not he has drank in the past 10 years. Thats a real sticking point, when I try to compare this behaviour to another, it always comes up as a negative connotation. Got any positive ones?

Thanks again
Dawn

[DawnLabelle]

Hi Dawn,

The following are my personal opinions and shoud not be misconstrued as otherwise.

As a rule, I think most self help books are crap - one size fits some solutions to people looking for specific answers. The only people they help those who write them. I'm surprised that a therapist would send you down that path.

If you are going to continue in therapy, you need to find one who can address gender issues. I have yet to meet any CD/TG individual who was like we are due to not being in touch with our 'masculine' side. Fact is, many CDers have very 'masculine' sides to compliment their feminine selves. Your therapist's approach indicates that he hasn't a clue in this department.

Realize that seeing a therapist who can properly speak to gender issues does not mean you are looking to transition and you do not need to be a TS to see a gender specialist.

IMHO, we are who we are - I doubt we have 'feminized' the man out of us. Sound like a typical cisgendered POV of CDers and TG male in general. Find someone who can speak to all your issues with equal authority.

If you haven't done so, have a look at my How I Did It (http://crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26327) thread for some idea of how I worked through all of this.


Love & Stuff,
Donna

Hi Donna,

Well, in his defence, in our session today I told him about my conflicted feelings about the book, and he was actually happy that I could separate what I wanted to take from it compared to what I didn't agree with. Its funny that you say that about self help books in general. One thing he told me today (im paraphrasing as our therapy is in french) is how no book or psychological theory out there can totally desribe the behaviour and thoughts of any single human being as we are all far more complex than that. He saw that book as a way to help me figure things out for myself, to have a different perspective, and I do appreciate that. Plus, I want to take an active approach to all this, reading what I can, trying what I can, etc.

I've never felt that he has been pressuring me to ditch the CD'ing, or to feel wrong about myself, in fact he has been very pro-exploration and investigation into it. He's suggested to not to get into another relationship right away (im a serial monogamist) and take the time I need to explore both my male life as well as my femme life. Having said this, I'll be the first to admit that he is not the best therapist on the planet to deal with these types of gender issues, and maybe once I've learned all I can from him and if at that time I still feel the need to, then I'll start to explore gender issue therapy. Right now I feel very comfortable with him, and I am getting through lots of other tough issues with my life, so I do feel that its worthwhile.

As for the "feminizing the male right out of us" theory, that was mine and mine alone, one of my confused thoughts. I'll try to describe where that comes from for me. I've spent most of my formative years around female friends and/or girlfriends (7 to 15) and all my time after that in one or another long term relationship. Sure I still did guy stuff, videogames, whacking each other with sticks, dumb boy stuff, but I can't remember a single meaningful conversation with a guy at all, any real emotion or feeling always came from an experience with a female. I have a ridiculous amount of respect for women, so much though that I've often been ashamed of being a guy. So years and years of these types of experiences, feelings, thoughts may have somewhat switched my psyche to become more feminine..... or..... I always *was* that way and this is why I had those experiences and those friendships..... chicken and the egg question I guess (at least *that* one has an easy answer...)

and I'm back to rambling. It's getting late but thanks for the link to your thread and I'll definetly give it a good read tomorrow.

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions, I do appreciate it.
Hugs
Dawn

[Lisa Baby]

Dawn:

I don't think there is anyone here who actually qualifies as a gender therapist, and I think that your questions are very in depth and belong within the walls of that type of therapy.

I would not be comfortable offering you any other type of advice or opinions on this.

I do think that time and patience along with good counseling will help you find the answers your seeking.

Jennaie :be:

I don't think I could say it any better. Continue with your therapist. Does he specialize in gender identity problems? If not, you may wisk to ask for a recomendation to someone else. :)

Lisa

[Yes I am]

... A thought just popped into my head that day which was "im a crossdresser, wether or not im en femme, its part of me all the time", of course I explained my thought to my shrink with the (negative) analogy to an alcoholic, how he is one wether or not he has drank in the past 10 years. Thats a real sticking point, when I try to compare this behaviour to another, it always comes up as a negative connotation. Got any positive ones?

Thanks again
Dawn

It's like, Peter Parker is always Spider-Man, even when he's not wearing his tights. Or whatever superhero you'd prefer to use...

[jillinla]

let me see?

you currently feel life as Dawn
and still as so u have both male and female friends
--
life is good

[ReginaK]

I've been there. I took the easy way out. I spend my male life preaching about how much I hate women (as a way to keep them away and to make myself feel better) and fill all my waking moments with other activities to replace the absence of male or female "friends". Crossdressing, music, racing, etc.

The end result is although I no longer have many friends, at least any problem I have is purely of my own doing. It's not the healthiest way to deal with it, but i'm happier. Much happier than I was being "a nice guy" always getting railroaded, betrayed, and bullied by my so-called "friends". Now i'm no ones "guy" let alone "nice".

In a way, i've divorced myself from society. I don't want to "hang with the guys" and i've gotten to the point where I don't care if I "hang with the girls" or not. I don't have to worry about giving more than I get. I don't have to worry about a girlfriend/wife running the show. I've given up on them. I pretty much do anything possible to avoid being the Nice Guy described in the book you mentioned.

[DawnLabelle]

It's like, Peter Parker is always Spider-Man, even when he's not wearing his tights. Or whatever superhero you'd prefer to use...

Dang girl!, you got it right on the head. And I've been a comic book fan since I was an early teen and I *never* thought of this. Thanks!

Dawn

[TGMarla]

Hi Dawn.

Look, it seems to me that you have control issues. I don't mean control of others, but rather, control of yourself. You are caught up in the currents of your life, but you aren't using your paddles to control where it takes you. It's a big, bad world out there, and when it gets too much for you, you use "Dawn" as a place to run and hide from it. No offense intended, as believe me, there are times when I do the very same thing.

But look, you control your life. You do not have to prove yourself to, or answer to anyone for who you are. Take some time for introspection, and get familiar with who you are in your core being. Find out what it is you really like to do, and go do it. You'll find that you aren't really "Dawn" way down deep, but rather, a hybrid of Dawn in addition to your male persona. They aren't really different people at all, but one person with both male and female traits. This is nothing to be ashamed of, or hidden from the light. It's a gift.

Now stick that paddle down in the water, and make the boat go where you want it to go. You aren't a victim; you control you.

[DawnLabelle]

Hi Dawn.

Look, it seems to me that you have control issues. I don't mean control of others, but rather, control of yourself. You are caught up in the currents of your life, but you aren't using your paddles to control where it takes you. It's a big, bad world out there, and when it gets too much for you, you use "Dawn" as a place to run and hide from it. No offense intended, as believe me, there are times when I do the very same thing.

But look, you control your life. You do not have to prove yourself to, or answer to anyone for who you are. Take some time for introspection, and get familiar with who you are in your core being. Find out what it is you really like to do, and go do it. You'll find that you aren't really "Dawn" way down deep, but rather, a hybrid of Dawn in addition to your male persona. They aren't really different people at all, but one person with both male and female traits. This is nothing to be ashamed of, or hidden from the light. It's a gift.

Now stick that paddle down in the water, and make the boat go where you want it to go. You aren't a victim; you control you.

Thank you for such a poignant post Marla, if you were here right now I'd give you a huge hug :).

Dawn

[Kimberley]

Hi Dawn,
A THERAPIST told you to read the book? Exactly what is his/her function? Librarian?

Self help books should be burned or at the least put behind barriers out of sight. The only ones they serve are the publisher and author.

Sexual orientation (hetero, bi, gay) have NOTHING to do with gender.

A lot of what you are asking are serious therapy questions and it doesnt appear as though your therapist is experienced in gender issues. I would say find one who is. Too many of us figure that because they are a qualified therapist they can help. Wrong. We need therapists who understand and are experienced in dealing with people who have gender issues.

You already have the answers. You just need guidance to find them within.

Good luck hon.
Kimberley

[DawnLabelle]

Ok, is the fact that my therpaist suggested I read through a book (written by a PhD psycologist no less) that bad?. Ok, I did classify it as a "self help book", because it has a series of excercises that you can try in your life to make yourself more proud, assertive, confident, etc (all things I really need overall), but it is a psyche book in the end. I also was very open to reading things and taking an active approach in my own healing. So I ask again, is it really that bad?

As I re-read my own long rambling confused posts I am starting to think that I may want to start looking into an actual therapist with alot of experience in gender issues (Montreal is one of the biggest SRS cities on the planet, so im sure there is no shortage), but dang, I like this guy, and I do feel he is helping with alot of other stuff going on.

Anyway, stuff to think about
Dawn

[Kimberley]

Dawn, you are right, Montreal does have a lot of support. Even here in the doldrums of Southwestern Ont. there is support (and I lucked out to get the best of it).

Still, self-diagnosis is not going to help you one iota no matter who wrote the book. (It is called persuasive argument) Again, we have a lot of issues that are intertwined with our gender issues. An experienced gender therapist can help sort out the quagmire.

My pdoc spent almost a year helping me to go through the other garbage before she would even go near gender. So in that light your therapist is probably helping, but what happens when you have to tie your feelings to the gender dysphoria? Is the therapist experienced enough to help you sort through those issues? Those are the ones that hold us back. How do we overcome the guilt, fear, shame etc that is associated with our gender identity? Can the therapist help you find your real gender?

You can still have more than one therapist although I think it could be counterproductive.

Kimberley