Feminist reading and feminism

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Personally, I've wondered what the response in these forums to these questions would be:

1. Have you ever read any books about feminism or feminist related topics?

2. Do you consider yourself a feminist.


Veronica

[Tamara Croft]

I voted 'I don't consider myself a feminist and I havn't read any books about it.' I think that sort of stuff mainly happened in the 60's which was well before my time. I don't think burning my bra's would achieve much, I'd certainly be out of pocket ;)

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Hmm, perhaps i should have asked also how people define feminism, what they think it is/means.

Me? I'm mostly a third wave feminist.

Some Wikipedia links.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_wave_feminism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfeminism


Veronica

[Jennaie]

I have to go with Tamara on this one. I do believe in equality, as it pertains to a woman being equal to a man in the workplace. I believe that women desreve the right to express themselves as they wish. I also believe that men have these rights as well. Equality means exactly what the word is, equality.

I watched the feminist movement of the 60's in America. Today we are looking at problems that will affect women because of the womens movement of the sixties. One of those problems is the draft. The womens lib movement has set a precedent with the draft that will force women into the military if the draft is reinstated. It is for this reason that congress has avoided and tried to ignore our lack of military personnel. While many men and women have been placed on a stop/hold status and are unable to come home because our military is too small to replace them.


I do not think that any person should have to serve in the military or go to war if they do not feel that they could deal with the hardships it would place on them.

Feminist have done some good in this country, they have also projected onto other females things that are not so good.

Jennaie :be:

[Michelle Hart]

I am curious as to what good feminism has done? Based on the current and previous movement I'm not really aware of anything positive that has come from it.

Every feminist I have every met have been crass hateful and resentful of men. Just my personal observation though.

[Mona]

I am fortunate to know a couple women who define themselves as feminist while remaining delightfully feminine but sadly it has been my experience that they are the exception. I do believe in equality for all genders and think most women would agree.

[EricaCD]

I got a healthy helping of critical feminist thought in law school--so I can at least say with a clear conscience that I read some of the books...

Besides the usual beliefs in gender equality, I do believe that society should at least think through how patterns of thought or behavior that are not explicitly discriminatory may nevertheless create social distortions that correspond with traditional gender roles.

When modern journalism mentions "feminism", it seems that one of two possible manifestations is intended. Pardon the gross stereotyping but it will get the idea across faster:

1. Man hating, bitter, angry, PC person that seeks to use even the most innocuous mannerisms to demonstrate that men hate women, all sex is necessarily equivalent to rape, and all that other collegiate psychobabble nonsense.

2. A pollyanna-esque belief that women can have it all in life (family, job, sexual satisfaction, plenty of spare time), coupled with an inchoate rage at the world when this proves to not be true.

I have no patience for either of these brands of "feminism", but no end of desire to rid the world of overt discrimination and at least commence an honest social discussion as to next steps to bring about a meaningful gender equality.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I am curious as to what good feminism has done? Based on the current and previous movement I'm not really aware of anything positive that has come from it.

Voting, holding public office, owning property in their own name, being able to make their own life choices without a father or male relative forcing them to do something, being able to drive, having their own credit, being able to work in a job of their choosing, able to pursue an education, reproductive choices, laws against sexual harassment, being able to travel as they please. All those things are brought to you by the feminist movement.


Veronica

[Michelle Hart]

This is not a slight nor insult to women only an observation based on history and my current interaction with modern feminism and it's attitudes.


In the 1960s and 1970s, much of feminism and feminist theory represented, and was concerned with, problems faced by Western, white, middle-class women while claiming to represent all women.

Voting: 1870 and later in 1920
1870 The 15th Amendment receives final ratification, saying, "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude." By its text, women are not specifically excluded from the vote.
--1890 The first state (Wyoming) grants women the right to vote in all elections.
--1920 Women were not allowed to vote in the United States until the required number of states ratified the 19th Amendment to the Constitution in 1920

Holding public office: 1917
Jeanette Rankin of Montana, elected in 1917, was the first woman member of the United States House of Representatives.

Owning property in their own name: 1839 & 1900
The first state (Mississippi) grants women the right to hold property in their own name, with their husbands’ permission. 1900 By now, every state has passed legislation modeled after New York’s Married Women’s Property Act (1848), granting married women some control over their property and earnings.

Being able to make their own life choices:
Has never been denied = Not relavant and does not count

Being able to drive:
Privlidge not a right. Common misconception

Having their own credit:
Privilidge not a right. Common misconception

Being able to work in a job of their choosing: 1820 & 1938
1920 The Women's Bureau of the Department of Labor is formed to collect information about women in the workforce and safeguard good working conditions for women. 1938 The Fair Labor Standards Act establishes minimum wage without regard to sex.

Able to pursue an education: 1870
In 1870 an estimated one fifth of resident college and university students were women. By 1900 the proportion had increased to more than one third.

Reproductive choices: 1916 & 1923
In 1916 Margaret Sanger opens the first U.S. birth-control clinic in Brooklyn, N.Y. Although the clinic is shut down 10 days later and Sanger is arrested, she eventually wins support through the courts and opens another clinic in New York City in 1923.

Laws against sexual harassment: 1961
President John Kennedy(R) establishes the President's Commission on the Status of Women and appoints Eleanor Roosevelt as chairwoman. The report issued by the Commission in 1963 documents substantial discrimination against women in the workplace and makes specific recommendations for improvement, including fair hiring practices, paid maternity leave, and affordable child care.


Being able to travel as they please:
Has never been denied = Not relavant and does not count

So it looks like the ONLY thing modern feminism has done is get sexual harasment laws passed which have been used as a club ever since. Based on the above it is debatable weather or not the above is directly caused by "feminism" but Since Feminism did't start until the 60's I highly doubt it.

All of the above are great acomplishments though, and Women deserve them of that there is no doubt.

My point is only that Modern feminism has done virtually nothing in the past 50 years but cause problems.

[BethGG]

I consider myself a feminist and have read some feminist books. If you think men and women are treated equally, you don't pay much attention! Just look at how many women get raped. I believe it's about 1 in 5, and you also need to take into account a LARGE amount go unreported. To me that is not equality, that's being treated like dirt. Women still get payed less then men. Women still don't hold as many high positions. That says women are still not equal.

Also, I'm totally not man hating at all. Guys rock! It's inequality I'm against.

[Kimberley]

Gloria Steinham rocks!!!

[Cathy Anderson]

I am a humanist, not a feminist. I find "feminism" as a theoretical position to be divisive, paradoxical (because it perpetuates the very myth of basic gender differences it wishes to overcome) and counterproductive. Yes, women are oppressed. But the issue is really that *all* human beings are oppressed.

Cathy

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I am a humanist, not a feminist. But the issue is really that *all* human beings are oppressed.

Cathy

yes, good point.


Veronica

[Cathy Anderson]

However, consistent with my previous post, I guess it would be fair to say that I am very sympathetic to and supportive of the basic aims of feminism, if those are understood as the creation of a society less oppressive/exploitative of women.

Also, perhaps it should be mentioned that one accomplishment of modern feminism has been achievement of greater parity of salary and professional opportunities between men and women.

Cathy

[Jerry]

As a mostly Rush Limbaugh conservative (YIKES!! No flaming now, even though I may have asked for it), I think the feminist movement was a great thing. Like the civil rights movement for African Americans, it caused a raising of consciousness to the oppression women have historically faced as noted by others here. Many good things have come as a result.

I have a hard time with the "men are evil, society will evolve to the point that men are not necessary" crowd. (That's the small radical subset RL calles "Feminazis" which is often misrepresented)

The spectrum of male - female that we all are sensitive to shows there are many gender differences among us. As long as we continue to keep the dialog going and shine the light in the "dark" corners, women will continue to make progress. We will make progress. Unfortunately, change is often slow and difficult.

This forum and you girls are the light. I love you all.

Hog hugs from Arkansas
Jerry

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I'm a "third-wave humanist" for the reasons Cathy mentioned. And in fact one of the reasons I liked the late Betty Friedan was she was someone who talked about the need to liberate both sexes from the societal limitations both are faced with.

[Michelle Hart]

I consider myself a feminist and have read some feminist books. If you think men and women are treated equally, you don't pay much attention! Just look at how many women get raped. I believe it's about 1 in 5, and you also need to take into account a LARGE amount go unreported. To me that is not equality, that's being treated like dirt. Women still get payed less then men. Women still don't hold as many high positions. That says women are still not equal.

Also, I'm totally not man hating at all. Guys rock! It's inequality I'm against.

Beth, rape has nothing to do with equality or inequality. It's not about sex either. Rape is all about power. Rape is deplorable but that still does not make it an "equality" or "women's rights" issue. As far as "positions of power", I do not know any men, anywhere who run the house anymore so I'm a little confused by that.....

Larry, Im a Rush limbaugh fan/conservitive too so your not alone. As I pointed out erlier Feminism in it's current for is all about devisive hate mongering. It has'nt acomplished anything but mass confusion and comunication breakdown. That is a truly sad thing.

I love women and wish there was "equality" in comunication. However I don't think there ever will be. Men and Women think and proccess information too diferently for that.

Generally men are happy being Men. Feminists want women to be happy being men too, but as women who are men because they are women who don't need men; but want men to not want them while they are being men. Even though they need men to want them while they are women so they cant be women who are men being women. It goes withou saying that Feminisms ultimate goal is to change the very dynamics of 50 million years of evolution and natural design.

[kittypw GG]

I am a humanist, not a feminist. I find "feminism" as a theoretical position to be divisive, paradoxical (because it perpetuates the very myth of basic gender differences it wishes to overcome) and counterproductive. Yes, women are oppressed. But the issue is really that *all* human beings are oppressed.

Cathy
I have always considered myself a feminist but not a radical one because I am the mother of a male. Some feminists are so radical that they take to shutting out men altogether. I love what you said here Cathy and I think that I will consider myself a humanist from now on.

I think, though, that the reason behind feminism is to gain equality in the areas that are/were considered male teritory which I think was/is needed.
On the other hand I think more effort needs to be placed on men gaining equality in the areas that were once considered female. Like nurtuting yourself and others, taking time to pamper yourself with things that make you feel special and look good like hair products, perfume, clothes etc.

I think that there is such a movement. Take the FAB 5 and the show Queer eye. They do marvelous things for the straight male population. The men that are taken on by the Fab 5 are usually totally suprised by how good it feels to take care of yourself and I think that they want permission from other males to induldge in the tender side of their personalities which we all know is there. Why should it only be ok to do so if you are gay?

The older I get I find that the sexiest men are the ones who have a good grasp of tenderness and responsibility. This hold trues for the females that I consider sexy and admirable.

Kitty

[Christina Nicole]

Yes, I am a feminist, but not in the context of current usage. I am more in the model of Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Lucretia Mott, and Susan B. Anthony. Probably also Abigail Adams also qualifies. She was a smart woman and probably more balanced than John was. Abigail had a pretty good grasp of the difficulties during revolutionary and postcolonial times. Her letters show a lot of insight.

I've read biographies and compilations of Mott's Anthony's and Stanton's papers. Very interesting. It is also interesting how what is called feminism has evolved from one meaning into something very different. Personally, I think social thought died in the 1960s. What passes for social progress since then is simply pedantic agitprop.

BTW, there's a web site (http://ecssba.rutgers.edu/docs.html) that is part of Rutgers University that is putting the papers of Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton on-line. Promises to be fascinating reading.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[BethGG]

Beth, rape has nothing to do with equality or inequality. It's not about sex either. Rape is all about power. Rape is deplorable but that still does not make it an "equality" or "women's rights" issue. As far as "positions of power", I do not know any men, anywhere who run the house anymore so I'm a little confused by that.....

I do believe rape is a feminist issue, because though it affects both men and women, women are raped at a much greater amount. Why is that? Also in other countries, raping women is used as a tool of war. That to me is NOT equality! Besides even rape, there are SO many women who get molested/unwanted touching... I almost don't know any women who have not had unwanted touching of some kind(from minor to major). To me that represents women being treated unequal. As far as "running the house", I meant more higher up positions like in government, in cooperations, managment positions, ect.

[Michelle Hart]

Beth this is not meant to be disrespectful or insulting in any way but I am curious as to where do you do your reasearch??


I do believe rape is a feminist issue, because though it affects both men and women, women are raped at a much greater amount. Why is that? Also in other countries, raping women is used as a tool of war. That to me is NOT equality! Besides even rape, there are SO many women who get molested/unwanted touching... I almost don't know any women who have not had unwanted touching of some kind(from minor to major). To me that represents women being treated unequal. As far as "running the house", I meant more higher up positions like in government, in cooperations, managment positions, ect.


Women CEOs of Fortune 500 companies (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/womenceos)
Even with Carly Fiorina's departure from Hewlett-Packard, there are more women running FORTUNE 500 companies this year than there were last year. Currently, nine FORTUNE 500 companies are run by women


So Nacy Pelossi, Hillary Clinton, Condelizza Rice, Marget Thatcher, Marta Stewart, et all are in lower positions than men??

As far as unsolicited "touching" well it happens to everybody, all throught life.

Edited for clarity.....

[kneehighs]

1. Feminism is for EVERYBODY by bell hooks is a simple book that defines feminism as, "a movement to end sexism, sexist exploitation, and oppression."

2. Yes, with reference to the above definition, I am a feminist.

[Sharon]

Beth this is not meant to be disrespectful or insulting in any way but I am curious as to where do you do your reasearch??

Women CEOs of Fortune 500 companies (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/womenceos)
Even with Carly Fiorina's departure from Hewlett-Packard, there are more women running FORTUNE 500 companies this year than there were last year. Currently, nine FORTUNE 500 companies are run by women

Nine out of 500? And this is good? It may be a slight improvement over past years, but to say that 1.8% of the top 500 corporations are being run by females is hardly an arguement against a need for further change. Feminism doesn't necessarily mean femi-nazis (your friend Rush's term), but a need for education and empowerment. If all things were equal, about another fifty percent female representation in the boardroom should be expected, as well as further representation by assorted minorities.



So Nacy Pelossi, Hillary Clinton, Condelizza Rice, Marget Thatcher, Marta Stewart, et all are in lower positions than men??

The thing is, it looks like you were having difficulty in coming up with a fuller recognizable list of powerful women. And it will be a turning point in our society when we stop looking at people in politics and business and immediately thinking, "wow, it's a female!" It's all too rare to find a woman in influential positions and there is much, much more change that is needed in the coming years. Women in power is not better than having men, but having so few is a disgrace.


As far as unsolicited "touching" well it happens to everybody, all throught life.

No comment -- I'll just let your words sit here like the prattle they are.

[Michelle Hart]

Hi Sharon, I'm happy to see you and hear your input. On some points I agree but on others I disagree. Here are my thoughts.


Nine out of 500? And this is good? It may be a slight improvement over past years, but to say that 1.8% of the top 500 corporations are being run by females is hardly an arguement against a need for further change.

The point is that There ARE women who run major corporations. The numbers may be low but you have to consider many more variables than gender alone. How many women do you know that are willing to never be at home, deal with the extreme stress or sacrifice nearly every personal relationship they have just to "be the Boss". Most women decide to get married and have children, at this point their focus on work changes. Not always but quite often. They would rather spend time with their children than in an airport terminal discussing an impending merger. Did you know that 75% of all small business' are owned and run by women. America's 9.1 million women-owned businesses employ 27.5 million people and contribute $3.6 trillion to the economy.


Feminism doesn't necessarily mean femi-nazis (your friend Rush's term), but a need for education and empowerment.

I agree with that completly. Unfortunately The National Organazation For Women ( NOW ) does not. Hence the term. I am all for education and empowerment so long as it is tempered by personal responsibility. If somebody chooses to not be educated or relegate their power to someone else, that is personal choice. Blaming "the other guy" is simply meritless.


If all things were equal, about another fifty percent female representation in the boardroom should be expected, as well as further representation by assorted minorities.

That sounds like entitlement not equality. Which is more important? Having a QUALIFIED candidate in the position or balancing the gender and ethnic scales. I would much rather have an experienced and qualified pilot on my flights.


The thing is, it looks like you were having difficulty in coming up with a fuller recognizable list of powerful women.

Hardly, I did not see the need to list more. The list mearly illustrates the point that there are women at the top and that list is growing.


It will be a turning point in our society when we stop looking at people in politics and business and immediately thinking, "wow, it's a female!" It's all too rare to find a woman in influential positions and there is much, much more change that is needed in the coming years. Women in power is not better than having men, but having so few is a disgrace.


I agree; so long as "the change" is beneficial and inclusive for ALL people.



No comment -- I'll just let your words sit here like the prattle they are.

Snide comments only cheapen the discussion.


As far as unsolicited "touching" well it happens to everybody, all throught life. .

To further illustrate my referenced point. Have you ever been on a crowded subway, in crowded movie theater, the mall ? It's a fact of life that people will bump into you or otherwise "invade" you personal space. Get used to it. However I am all for punishing sexual preditors and their ilk. Sexual harasment is a crime whether comitted against a male or female.

[BethGG]

To further illustrate my referenced point. Have you ever been on a crowded subway, in crowded movie theater, the mall ? It's a fact of life that people will bump into you or otherwise "invade" you personal space. Get used to it. However I am all for punishing sexual preditors and their ilk. Sexual harasment is a crime whether comitted against a male or female.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about men touching women in ways they DON'T want to be touched. Being bumped into on a subway is nothing, that's not what I mean. I think that's great if you've never experienced what I'm talking about, but I think maybe it also means you are not really understanding what I mean. I mean being molested or grabbed sexually on purpose(not accidently bumping into someone). This happens to a LOT of women, infact I'd venture to say it's almost the standard that by being a woman, eventually someone will do something sexually inappropriate to you from minor to major(maybe that's a big assumption on my part but as far as I've seen, not too many females have not had it happen). Sure it happens to men too, but the fact is it happens MUCH more to women, showing that there's an issue there. In your other post you highlighted my words saying it happens to both men and women...yes that's true, but it happens at a much greater proportion to women. Why is that? If women are truely considered equal, wouldn't the rape rates be about equal? Yet it's not, women are raped/molested at a very high number. To me that shows there's a lot of women hatred going on.

About the Fortune 500, I think that's great that there's some women in there. But they're still such a tiny number, I don't think it's all by chance. It shows that while feminism has gone a long way, it still needs to be here, there's still a need for it.

[Tamara Croft]

Beth this is not meant to be disrespectful or insulting in any way but I am curious as to where do you do your reasearch??I was going to stay out of this thread until I read the above quote. You don't NEED to do research to know that as a MATTER OF FACT more women are raped than men. How many rape cases for men do you see on the TV? I don't remember many, I do however see how many there are in my OWN LOCAL TOWN (and it's a very small one) are raped every month.

As for equality, you only have to look at some of the threads in this forum to see how equal our GG members are to the CD members. I won't go into details, this isn't the thread for it. But equal rights? I'd like to have some of that HERE in this very forum!! Maybe I'll start burning YOUR bras in protest.

[Christina Nicole]

Regarding women reaching to top of the corporate ladder and also board rooms... Reaching the top of a company requires years of dedication and at least 100% effort. More than 100% means long days, nights, weekends, giving up vacation time -- things like that. Getting on a board requires either a very senior position at another company, control of a large voting block of stock, or some persuasive argument to group of stockholders who can vote (or proxy) a large block of stock.

One of the reasons we don't see more women is that some women prefer not to dedicate themselves to the company. For example, in my family, about half of the women stopped working when they had children. Taking 10 or so years out of one's career is a huge impediment to the top of the corporate ladder. Assuming that is a representative sample, which it probably is not, instead of expecting to see 50/50 male/female executives, a 75/25 split might be more reasonable.

The above is assuredly not a rigorous exercise. It is simply meant to be illustrative. There is more to statistical analysis than most people realize.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[Michelle Hart]

I think that's great if you've never experienced what I'm talking about, but I think maybe it also means you are not really understanding what I mean. I mean being molested or grabbed sexually on purpose(not accidently bumping into someone). Sure it happens to men too, but the fact is it happens MUCH more to women, showing that there's an issue there. In your other post you highlighted my words saying it happens to both men and women...yes that's true, but it happens at a much greater proportion to women. Why is that?

Sorry Beth, I did misunderstand. I thought you were speaking about ALL unwanted contact not just sexual. I apologize. I have experienced unwanted sexual advances in the past so I know what it's like. Behavior like that is deplorable regardless of gender. Why it presumably happens to women more often, I do not know.


If women are truly considered equal, wouldn't the rape rates be about equal? Yet it's not, women are raped/molested at a very high number. To me that shows there's a lot of women hatred going on.

There is no concrete information on the frequency or ratio of men or women who are assaulted. Most crimes of that nature go unreported and are only highlighted when the media sensationalizes a story like Debra Lafave or Natilie Holloway. Nobody has an accurate number of sexual assaults. Rape cases involving women are more commonly mentioned in the media, however that does not mean that women are raped more often. Recently the catholic priesthood was embroiled in a series of crimes against young men. Are you suggesting that men should be raped more often to make it equal? Need I mention the volume of sexual assault that goes on in prisons, Which goes largely unreported. There is a lot of male hatred going on too. Wives kill their husbands quite often for insurance or any other number of reasons.



About the Fortune 500, I think that's great that there's some women in there. But they're still such a tiny number, I don't think it's all by chance. It shows that while feminism has gone a long way, it still needs to be here, there's still a need for it.

Christina really did a much better job of explaining this than I did.



Regarding women reaching to top of the corporate ladder and also board rooms... Reaching the top of a company requires years of dedication and at least 100% effort. More than 100% means long days, nights, weekends, giving up vacation time -- things like that. Getting on a board requires either a very senior position at another company, control of a large voting block of stock, or some persuasive argument to group of stockholders who can vote (or proxy) a large block of stock. One of the reasons we don't see more women is that some women prefer not to dedicate themselves to the company. For example, in my family, about half of the women stopped working when they had children. Taking 10 or so years out of one's career is a huge impediment to the top of the corporate ladder. Assuming that is a representative sample, which it probably is not, instead of expecting to see 50/50 male/female executives, a 75/25 split might be more reasonable.
The above is assuredly not a rigorous exercise. It is simply meant to be illustrative. There is more to statistical analysis than most people realize.
Warm regards,
Christina Nicole



I was going to stay out of this thread until I read the above quote. You don't NEED to do research to know that as a MATTER OF FACT more women are raped more than men. How many rape cases for men do you see on the TV? I don't remember many, I do however see how many there are in my OWN LOCAL TOWN (and it's a very small one) are raped every month.

Research is a cornerstone of wisdom. Nobody has the actual number of sexual assaults. It is ASSUMED that 85% are unreported. That is a best guess or approximate number which only deals with women. There is no tabulation for men that I know of since men are even less likely to report crimes of this nature. Since no agency or organization has an ACCURATE number could you please cite where your information came from. So if you see it on TV that MAKES it true? Why would you suggest that just because you see it more often on TV that your belief has more merit than mine. I will concede that women suffering from sexual assault is more publicized.

I would suggest however that you move someplace else. It is Waaaaay to dangerous where you live.


As for equality, you only have to look at some of the threads in this forum to see how equal our GG members are to the CD members. I won't go into details, this isn't the thread for it. But equal rights? I'd like to have some of that HERE in this very forum!! Maybe I'll start burning YOUR bras in protest.

I'm not really sure what you mean so I shall stay my tongue. Please do not burn my bra's, That would be just to much anguish to bear.

Especially my pink one, Please do not burn it.

Please!!

No really, Pretty Please!!

With sugar on top?

Please!!

Not the Pink one OK.

[Anima-87-388]

Am I the only one who is confused by how equal rights would make rape victims 50% male and 50% female?

I agree that more females are raped than males, that's a simple fact but how are a few rights going to stop predators from choosing their victims? I would draw that females are easier to rape or more likely to get raped and yes that certainly is an issue.

I feel badly for anyone who has had some jerk grab their @$$, nobody wants to see that happen to their mother. My mother has told me of many rude encounters she's had (although nothing major happned to her) . My ex gf was molested by her grandpa and one of my old friends was raped by her uncle (they were both under 13 at the time of being raped) it makes me feel really horrible and believe me I know all about what that can do to a person...

But that has nothing to do with a hatred for women, it's just a vulnerability. I feel even worse than some GGs do about it because I share the same gender as some of these pathetic @$$holes. There are alooot of men out there who hurt MY reputation as a male and that's a big part of the reason I'd rather be a girl most the time, but you can't say that's hatred towards women. If you want to be fair there are GOOD men and there are BAD men and yes there are probably even more BAD men than BAD women, but don't think I feel unaffected by any of this.

We all need to accept eachother and work towards an equal society that doesn't discriminate against gender , race or religion. I've met people of all colors and creed , male or female and I have shown them all the same repsect I wish them to show me. "We must be the change we wish to see in the world"

I just dislike seeing this misdirected anger. Being either male or female can have certain advantages in society, also disadvantages. I know that males have the most advantages and probably the least disadvantages but whenever I hear someone base a gender argument on a single point of conflict it just upsets me.

Believe me I can't wait to see more men get raped than women and my mothers and sisters can be in a better (paying) position to help provide for their families and lead fulfilling lives, but threads like this make me feel like people will never understand what equality really means.

I'm not directing this at anyone and i'm sorry if I have offended anyone but this is just something i've been struggling with for awhile and thought it just might represent a few people here.

Good day now, it's time for me to go bake some world peace cookies :)

[Tamara Croft]

Michelle, I do not watch much TV, the news is too depressing. I do however read the newspapers and my daughter works for the police federation, which is where I get my information from. Do you really think the media would be so low as to make up information regarding rape?

Anyway, this has gone completely off topic :slap: self!!! Let's stick to the topic in general... and I'm going to burn one of your nice lacy bras' ;)

[Aileen]

Most women are in favor of equal rights for both genders, and a just and equitable society, and yet not that many women would categorize themselves as feminists. Sort of like, most people want to live in a crime-free society, but very few of us are willing to become cops.

I was very interested in feminism as a young boy, because I naively thought equal rights for women meant equal rights for men as well. I need hardly add what equal right I wanted. But then I realized that feminists had no interest in equal rights for men. I really think that feminism would be much more successful were it an attempt to negotiate with men, a little give and take, instead of an all-out war.

[Ms. Donna]

Hmm, perhaps i should have asked also how people define feminism, what they think it is/means.

Me? I'm mostly a third wave feminist.

Some Wikipedia links.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_wave_feminism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfeminism

Veronica

Hi Veronica,

I voted #1.

Like you, would consider myself more or less a third wave feminist.

My leaning, though, is more towards Queer Theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer_theory) - in case that didn't come through in my posts... :rolleyes:

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Bernice]

This is a complicated and controversial subject. I have not read much about it, and I do not identify myself with feminazis, or even with mainstream femininsts. On the other hand, I do believe women are oppressed almost universally, and that oppresion is wrong. I also believe crossdressers suffer more oppression than do women, but also that some crossdressers themselves also oppress women. Go figure.

There is much about human behavior that is frankly very ugly. I'm not sure that one gender suffers more rape than another, nor that this is worthy of seeking equality.

There are minor differences between the genders - not a binary duality, of course, but, for example, those we label genetic girls can (certainly more frequently than genetic males) bear children without medical intervention. This mere fact may tend to explain some inequlities in executive populations, because some otherwise elligible professionals choose motherhood.

The feminists who are the most vocal seem to be too extreme. Again, this is normal. Not ideal or laudible, just normal. I support equal rights, but not special rights, and not quotas, and not reverse discrimination.

I also think that minorities banding together to publicly demand some respect serves a worthwhile purpose. Some civilized people can be educated. There is hope.

Hugs,

Bernice

[Bev06 GG]

Like most causes the feminist movement goes just abit too far, and the majority of women agree in principle but wouldn't be that radical.

[KewTnCurvy GG]

I'm a socialist and pro-sex feminist. Go figure:p

[KewTnCurvy GG]

I really think that feminism would be much more successful were it an attempt to negotiate with men, a little give and take, instead of an all-out war.
As usual, I'm sure my words will fall to deaf ears here. But, why do WE (genetic women or transwomen) have to negotiate at all? Although, we do all the time. It is war baby. Again, I know I hold the minority opinion here, but it's you lil' boiz who started it all. We're just taking back our power and what should have been ours to begin with.

[Sharon]

As usual, I'm sure my words will fall to deaf ears here. But, why do WE (genetic women or transwomen) have to negotiate at all? Although, we do all the time. It is war baby. Again, I know I hold the minority opinion here, but it's you lil' boiz who started it all. We're just taking back our power and what should have been ours to begin with.

When I was a young, comic book reading goof, I always wanted to live in Amazonia. Queen Hera as my ruler? -- it sounded like a perfect society to me. :)

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Most women are in favor of equal rights for both genders, and a just and equitable society, and yet not that many women would categorize themselves as feminists.

That's because of the stereotypes about feminism: "The feminazi's are all ugly man hating lesbians" that sort of thing. So even if women are truly feminists the word itself has negativity attached to it so people don't identify as such.



I was very interested in feminism as a young boy, because I naively thought equal rights for women meant equal rights for men as well.

Actually that's what it's about as a whole, at least for us Third Wave types.

I
I really think that feminism would be much more successful were it an attempt to negotiate with men, a little give and take, instead of an all-out war.

Again, that's what Third Wavers are trying to do...in general


Veronica

[VeronicaMoonlit]

As usual, I'm sure my words will fall to deaf ears here. But, why do WE (genetic women or transwomen) have to negotiate at all? Although, we do all the time. It is war baby. Again, I know I hold the minority opinion here, but it's you lil' boiz who started it all. We're just taking back our power and what should have been ours to begin with.

The "war" and "battle" rhetoric is one of the things that upsets the "dittoheads". You have to remember they don't realize that they do have excessive privilege just for being born male, and that the privilege was unearned, and that they should give it up voluntarily.

But, I admit, asking people to give up unearned privilege and power is somewhat futile. It often takes the force of law to get people to treat other people different from them as they would want to be treated themselves.

It shouldn't have taken a law to get business to treat women equally in financial matters or to pay male and female workers doing the same job the same pay. It shouldn't take a law to get men to stop pinching their female coworkers butts.

Veronica

[BethGG]

Of course I don't believe equality means men should get raped more, come on now :p Like I said, I love men! The reason I say rape is a feminist issue, is because NO ONE should be raped, yet women are raped at such a high rate. Yes, there's always going to be sick people who want to rape. The fact that the rates are so disproportional towards women show me that there IS a lot of women hating going around. I don't think it's vulnerability (although that can play a part). I think there are a lot of people who want to see females being weak, and want to feel power over them. As women, we should NOT have to just accept that we probably will be raped/molested/inappropriatly touched at some point in our lives, and just deal with it. I think it's awful that priests were molesting little boys, definitly! But for example, if 1 in 5 gay people were killed verses a much smaller percentage of straight people, wouldn't that signify homophobia/hate crimes?

But it's not just that. It's tons of things. Look at sports for example...in the past 50 years women have come such a long way in sports! But still not all the way yet. Howcome in high school, there was no girls baseball team? They were only allowed to do softball. Apparently girls can only hit bigger balls, we're too delicate for the smaller baseball :rolleyes: Why is women's football so small, considered a joke, and called "powder puff"? Howcome in gym class girls are told to do "girl pushups"(on the knees) when guys are told to do regular ones? Girls are taught to be weak(and don't even say girls can't do pushups...I always did the regular kind instead when told to do the girly ones!). I could list tons of stuff really, but this post would be too large.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Howcome in high school, there was no girls baseball team? They were only allowed to do softball. Apparently girls can only hit bigger balls, we're too delicate for the smaller baseball :rolleyes: Why is women's football so small, considered a joke, and called "powder puff"? Howcome in gym class girls are told to do "girl pushups"(on the knees) when guys are told to do regular ones? Girls are taught to be weak(and don't even say girls can't do pushups...I always did the regular kind instead when told to do the girly ones!). I could list tons of stuff really, but this post would be too large.

Don't foget that a lot of the progress in women's sports came about because of Title IX (here in the US) and now there are people who want to repeal it and complain when they are told they should spend as much money on women's sports as mens


Veronica