Thinking about accptance and passing

[Patricia_Campi]

Hello girls and happy New Year!

I have a crossdressing friend that is working em femme now. Sometimes she needs to be um drab due to her work and for her safe (far cities she need to visit).

First of all, she is really very good at her job, so competence is not a problem. She made a huge job at her work to be accepted. Talking with management, coworkers preparation and a lot of other things to receive her femme side.

She said it was all very good. Everyone is being nice to her, so it look like a dream for all of us crossdressers.

And, don?t get me wrong please, I am very happy for her, but was wondering, she can pass as a woman, for sure, a body to die for, elegant and so on.

I imagine myself in her place. I am an ogre. I would not pass as a woman, I would be recognized as a man the first time someone see me.

If I had made the same work as she (management, coworkers preparation, etc) would I be accepted? Or people tend to accpet crossdressers who can pass as a woman??

Again, this thinking has nothing to do with the person herself, I know her personally and she is a one of a kind! A lovey person!

Kisses

Patricia

[VS Fan]

Passing helps I think, but I?m at theme park in Florida right now and one of the security folks at the gate was clearly a man but was wearing lipstick and had painted nails and no one said a thing. A hotel I stay at occasionally also has a front desk worker that is a CD or TS at some level and no one makes any comments. I think while people may notice and *think* something or another they certainly for the most part know better than to say anything.

Edit: I guess the job in question may also play a part... some jobs may be more difficult (I.e. the board room may be a different situation than many other jobs)

[Charlyne]

Hi Patricia, I definitely don?t pass. I dress nice, but of course have a man?s body and face. I once shopped in a thrift store dressed. The few people did not notice me. The check out lady was quite polite. People have noticed me pumping gasoline, but never said a word. I hav gone into uncrowded convenience stores and the clerks have been very nice. Even the prettiest CD girls often don?t pass close up. I have been doing baby steps on going in public for a long time. Hope this helps, Charlyne

[Tracii G]

Passing is something very few of us can do 100% so don't worry too much about it.
Its more about your attitude than anything.
Are you wanting to transition or something because why are you thinking about coming out at work?
Will you be accepted? How would any of us know ?
There is more work to CDing than just putting the clothes of a female on and expecting to look good.
Lots of work if you want to be honest if you want to be taken seriously anyway.

[Tracy Irving]

people tend to accpet crossdressers who can pass as a woman??

Yes, if a crossdresser can pass as a woman the default position is acceptance. There isn't another option.

[Stephanie47]

I think there is a difference is perception among the general public between a transsexual and a cross dresser, although without having knowledge I think nobody would be able to tell. In my state cross dressing falls under "gender expression." Over the years there have been some controversy is school districts when a teacher returns from summer vacation as a woman when before the summer vacation she presented as a man. In none of the instances has it been said the person was a MtF crossdresser. Cross dresser or pre-op transsexual I would conjecture your friend realizes she would not be as accepted in some areas of the country as others Perhaps there is more tolerance in some companies that have a strong policy of inclusion. If you are in a state with strong anti-discrimination laws her coworkers have to accept her as far as the work environment. However, that does not mean she would be invited to a summer BBQ.

I don't know what constitutes an "ogre." My son is six foot four and quite hairy. He would stand out like a sore thumb if he presented as a woman. On the other hand a man who is the average height of a woman may pass as an unattractive woman using societal standards.

[Gardener]

I do think there are also issues around how one sees oneself. Men, women, people come in all shapes and sizes and ?ideals? are maybe rare? If we do not believe in ourselves, who else will?

[Tracy Irving]

If you are in a state with strong anti-discrimination laws her coworkers have to accept her as far as the work environment.

We can force tolerance but forcing acceptance is another can of worms entirely.

[April Rose]

There are a lot of studies that show that people who are attractive and/or dress well get treated get treated better than people who aren't/don't. In that regard it would seem that your odds of success would be better if your presentation was appealing regardless of whether it was passable or not.

If you're not a natural beauty, you're going to have to work harder at your presentation. In the case of employment, that is going to mean every single day. Only you can decide whether you are up to that challenge.

[Teresa]

Patricia,
Very few if any pass 100% , I also pose the question , " Pass as what ?"

The way you describe your friend she comes over as being comfortable and confident with herself , she's probably not thinking of herself as a woman but is just being herself . Ok she may be very good at presenting herself , making the most of what she has .

It's also important to remember most of us have good days and bad , sometimes the guy surfaces and catches us out .

The other point is don't compare yourself to her you may have some attributes she doesn't have so make the most of them , don't forget women also come in all shapes and sizes you will fit in somewhere , you just have to start believing in yourself , choose the right clothes and find out how makeup and possibly a wig can help you .

Thinking about the comment , " People tend to accept crossdressers who can pass as women " . I don't think people actually consider that label , I feel the acceptance comes from us showing we prefer to present as female , they know we aren't women but they are comfortable because we are acceptable enough both in looks and manner . Some of my painting group know me in both modes and some only know me as Teresa but their acceptance is the same , some have told me they prefer me that way but none have suggested I revert to male mode .

[docrobbysherry]

Patricia, I believe u r confusing CD's with transexuals? I would define a CD as a man who dresses like a woman on occasion.

While a TS usually feels like a woman and many present and/or live as one. It sounds like your friend is a TS. While u and I r CD's.

Most CD's and TS's don't pass most of the time. But, most vanilla folks either accept or tolerate men in dresses. If they act like regular people. And, not odd or shameful!:battingeyelashes:

A number of my T friends r quite tall and/or large. But, they don't act weird so they nix with other trans and vanillas just fine!:thumbsup:

[Rachelakld]

I tend to agree with the Doc.

My co-worker is transitioning (not a CD).
Shaving and make up is now a twice a day routine, same for hormones - it really is a struggle for her especially when we get referred to as a "couple of blokes" when we visit other companies.

It was hard for her to dump the very masculine work uniform, because she didn't want special treatment, but I've managed to get her into a professional business blouse, which helps with her presentation although there's still a lot of people/clients questioning me about her gender - she's high functioning and brilliant at her job, something I feel is essential if you work with as many clients as we do.

Basically, "coming out at work" is a real pain, extremely stressful and shouldn't be attempted unless your planning to be a female the rest of your life.

[Patricia_Campi]

Hello Girls, and thank you for all the answers!!

But I believe there is a confusion about my post.

I was not talking about acceptance from the crossdresser point of view, but from other people point of view. I mean, my friend is ok with her. But, If she was, let?s say a MIAD, would people be the same to her as they are now??

Do I cleared a little bit more? :D

Kisses

Patricia

[lingerieLiz]

When I was young I could pass. Today, I'm not going to pass, but I've accepted that and wear clothes that while female are acceptable. There is no question that they are women's attire. I receive very little negative feed back.

[MonicaPVD]

In my experience, passing or whatever you want to call it is all about attitude. If you are a thin, beautiful 20 year old with on point makeup and hair and you have a sketchy attitude, people will react poorly to you, pay extra attention and figure out that there's something off about you. I have seen this happen more than once. If you are older and not exactly gorgeous, but you are relaxed, confident and outgoing, people will treat you as you present yourself. I have proven this myself many times, even among rural, skeptical and not very sophisticated people. It's all about your attitude. There's no bigger red flag than a crossdresser walking around all nervous and shifty as if they're about to rob a bank or something.

[Aunt Kelly]

I was not talking about acceptance from the crossdresser point of view, but from other people point of view. I mean, my friend is ok with her. But, If she was, let?s say a MIAD, would people be the same to her as they are now??


It is likely that they would not. In general, people are less comfortable with a flagrantly non-binary presentation; the MIAD, for example. This is true even amongst the TG community. Mind you, I said "generally". There are always exceptions, but they will be just that, exceptions.

[suzanne]

Passing and acceptance are actually two different things. You can pass without being accepted, maybe by acting in an objectionable way or by trying to identify with women's groups who reject that transwomen are real women. And you can be accepted without passing. That's my story. I make no effort to pass as a woman. I dress up without the aid of wig, bra, makeup, or voice training. I am clearly a man in a dress, nothing more. I use the men's room, but always in a stall, not the urinals. I am accepted because I speak politely and behave appropriately for the situation I am in, and that is something that transcends gender identity.

Blending in is a different matter. As an obvious MIAD, and a large one at that, I know I am noticed and stand out in a crowd. I just have to deal with that. I do it by putting together the most tasteful, presentable outfit I can. That automatically puts me in a positive state of mind and I am able to face everyone with a smile as well as answer any respectful questions with equally respectful answers.

I see the desire to "pass" as a need some CDs have to stay unnoticed and hidden. They are still unsure of whether or not they will be accepted and try to pass to avoid perceived problems. Of course, the very fortunate few actually can pass and I am envious. But I am certain that, given my size and age, any effort on my part to pass will place me in the creepiest part of the uncanny valley, with me looking like a tragic joke. I feel that I am much better off by just owning my MIADness.

[Teresa]

Patricia,
From your friend's perspective I would say she is doing better presenting fully as a woman than being a MIAD . I feel people want a clear picture to work with rather than a confusing one . If she's dealing with clients they are more likely to accept her as TS because she is giving a clear message .

Suzanne,
I'm not sure if I go along with your reasoning on passing or not , if you are out in the RW is it possible to go unnoticed and hidden ? I interact with people everyday , I have my daily jobs to do so I'm certainly not try to hide away , I guess I'm noticed as much as anyone else in society maybe more so .

[Jean 103]

In general the public doesn't see a difference between a CD and a TS.

Suzanne is right, you just need to dress well and have the right personally.

Transitioning at work as a MAID(or looking like one), not easy in my opinion. I've attended enough support group meetings, so I know a few. Although the two that come to mind are not having problems at work.

I'm a service tech. I meet new people every day , mostly homes but sometimes businesses. Attitude is everything, if I'm my normally upbeat, happy, bubbly self , I don't have any problems. If I'm having a bad day and let it show that's when people complain, so I have learned to always put on a happy face.

I am out. I work as a guy and live as Jean. I do this because for me it is easier. At work I'm wearing all woman's clothing with the exception of a oversized company t-shirt. Tennis shoes, no show socks, skin tight skinny jeans, an oversized company t-shirt that covers my breasts so that they don't show as much. My hair pulled back in a ponytail.

[Fullerton]

In my last work place, 95% male / 1800 staff, there was one of us that started to coming to work as MAID/TS/DRAB depending how they identify that day.
A lot of discussion with management and direct colleagues was done before coming in MAID for the first time.
It was made aware to those in the same office it was to happen and the companies acceptance policy. 99% of people were fine and had no issue. Very occasionally the 1% would say something to other people but never direct, this reduced to no one commenting after a couple of months as it basically become the norm and everyone was use to it.

[Maid_Marion]

There are also the issues of confidence and power. A good outfit can add to your confidence. And someone in a position of power can show this by the way they dress.
As a petite hourglass both objectives are more easily achieved with women's clothes.

Marion

[Sallee]

Here is my two cents No one rally cares as long as you're nice person and spending money or doing a good job for the employer no one cares There might be a few that make a strange knowing glance but everyone for the most part has their own problems to worry about.
But at least for me going full time or a lot of the time would take some of the fun out of CDing and dressing I would be doing most of the time and it would be come normal or just another day

[Lydianne]

Patricia,
From your friend's perspective I would say she is doing better presenting fully as a woman than being a MIAD . I feel people want a clear picture to work with rather than a confusing one . If she's dealing with clients they are more likely to accept her as TS because she is giving a clear message .

Suzanne,
I'm not sure if I go along with your reasoning on passing or not , if you are out in the RW is it possible to go unnoticed and hidden ? I interact with people everyday , I have my daily jobs to do so I'm certainly not try to hide away , I guess I'm noticed as much as anyone else in society maybe more so .

You love to debunk observations others make about what you do, while reserving the right to have your assumptions hold about what they do. Suzanne is telling you about the experience of what she does. You might want to listen ;). Also note:


Suzanne is right, you just need to dress well and have the right personally.

Transitioning at work as a MAID(or looking like one), not easy in my opinion. I've attended enough support group meetings, so I know a few. Although the two that come to mind are not having problems at work.



- L.

[Jean 103]

I'm trying to stay positive but you asked for it.

I have had a couple people try and get me fired and at least one tried to get me band from the bar.

First sent pictures of me in a mini skirt to the owner of the company I work for.

The other complained about me wearing nail polish.

Also If I go out as a MIAD I am not treated the same, by people who don't know me. I have been out for years now. I could bore you sissy with stories as I go out every day and I don't live alone.

There is a FTM having problems, this is the exception to women can't be crossdressers. He is having problems with the owner of the company he works for. It's the same just backwards. If it were me, I would just quit, which is what the owner wants.

I'm not worried about being fired as it's not going to happen.

The idiot at the bar, well he was told he can go somewhere else. My ex-roommate is a security guard and at the time the head bouncer at the roughest bar in town. He told me the idiot has been thrown out of every bar in town and that he has knocked the guy out.

[Lydianne]

Heh, OK. If you want to speak up for Teresa, no probs! :D.

( btw, apologies, Patricia, about the tangent, although pertinent. I swear, I won't go on and on. I'll make my point and then leave it. )

If we can find a way somehow to put aside for a second what you wrote of your own experiences that mirrored what Suzanne wrote of the influence of attitude . . . I trust that what you report is true, and I am aware that in some states, they might have succeeded in their efforts. But:

1. Do your non-binary experiences outweigh the experiences of those non-binaries who haven't had those issues; two of whom, you know?

And

2. Do your positive experiences of binary presentation outweigh the negative experiences of those of binary presentation?

If so, why?.. Because it's you?..


You see, what I'm getting at here is not who experienced what - I know that will vary even within presentations.. but my point is double standards. Obviously both binaries and non-binaries have struggles; the process is extremely difficult, but Teresa seems to be extremely ready to concede ground to those that are uncomfortable with non-binaries, but not for those who are uncomfortable with her. Why?... Because it's her? :strugglin.


- L.

[Jean 103]

I'm only speaking for myself.

I don't think you can really take someone's personality out of it.

It's pretty much impossible to tell what people are thinking unless they tell you.

The premise I believe is whether a MIAD has a harder time than someone who wants to be the other gender.

I found early on that people are more likely to understand TS more than CD. I haven't tried to figure out why, I have just accepted it.

I have met and talked to a lot of people when I was first looking for answers a few years ago. It is part of why I became so popular. I would talk to anyone and did, now most of the time when I'm out in a social setting I'm with friends (GGs).

I have also met and talked to a couple of MIADs. One came up to me when I was having dinner at an outdoor cafe. The ma^tre d came rushing over to save me. I took it, as he was just doing his job. I told everyone it was ok. The MAID who was only wearing a skirt and his traveling companion sat down and joined me. The other one also only wearing a skirt I met in Vegas at the center.

OK think of it this way, if I have a hard time understanding why someone would want to be a MAID, how do you expect the general public too? I am not saying that being a MAID is wrong or anything other than it is not me. I do understand how they feel.

I'm sorry but all I have to back up how I feel are my personal experiences.

I do not have a problem with you dressing anyway you want, and you don't make me uncomfortable.

I have found that just because people don't understand you doesn't mean they will not give you the respect you deserve, as most people don't want conflict.

[Rayleen]

On the subject of passing, my female friend told me and I quote " if you decide to go out dressed , at least dress accordingly and you probably not get negative remarks from other female "

I do not want to go out, just an in house dresser and am satisfied. If I would go out, I would dress accordingly.

[Patricia_Campi]

Girls, thank you very much for all your opinions.

My opinion about my post is: it easier to be accepted for those who can pass. A person like me (the Shrek in a dress) would have a really hard time to be accepted.

And that have nothing to do with my own acceptance, it is about people around me.

Kisses

Patricia

[Patience]

The closer one can resemble a woman, the easier it is for one to be accepted as such, which means less problems overall. Those of us who pass don't need to worry about blending.

As far as the rest of us (also most of us, since the majority of us don't pass), You better be darn near indispensable at work if you want to keep your job and as far as going out in public, well you have to pick your moments.

Just looked at your profile pic. You don't look like an ogre from behind...