If I get an inch will I take a mile?

[Star01]

This new year got off to a difficult start prior to the virus so I thought I'd share my experience. A relative on my wife's side passed away unexpectedly at a young age on March 2nd. Three weeks after we laid her to rest my mother-in-law passed away on March 24th. My wife worked in conjunction with hospice and was by her side when she passed. We paid our last respects on the same day that our state's stay at home order went into effect at midnight.

In the meantime I had started therapy in January and had a handful of visits before the lockdown. I was offered the option to continue using their teleconference provider but we were busy clearing out my mother-in-law's apartment so it took a while to verify with my insurance and setup a webcam. I missed about a month of therapy but I was able to get back on schedule and am making good progress again.

When I got involved in forum discussions last year I learned a lot but I felt intimidated reading about going out in public dressed and questioned how and if I fit in. Therapy has helped me to realize that I'm a low key person when in drab and that dressing isn't going to suddenly transform me into something I'm not. I don't dance, I don't drink, I don't live in a big city, I don't go out clubbing and I avoid drawing attention to myself. Therapy helped me to realize that we all have a wide range of personalities and dressing in women's clothes isn't going to change who we are at our core. I'm quiet, low key and don't like to make a scene, that's who I am no matter how I'm dressed or what gender I identify as.

As I have mentioned I'm in a DADT situation. I didn't initiate the "talk" but was confronted by my wife about eighteen years ago. Out of the blue she demanded to know what my shaved legs, long hair and earrings were about. She asked are you gay and are you going to transition into a woman?" At the time I was still in denial and replied "no, I just like doing this" and she said "I don't want to see it and I don't want to know about it". My wife likes to control the narrative (something that came out in therapy) so her approach was to "put her foot down" and put a stop to it and make it go away. Consequently, I'm in a vague DADT and my submissive personality and eagerness to make her happy gets in the way of pushing the issue any further. I don't want to give the impression that I'm not happy, we celebrated our fiftieth under quarantine by getting takeout. Aside from the elephant in the room, my dressing and the DADT, ours is a quiet low key existence. As far as telling her before we married, I didn't have that "ah ha" moment when I realized that I've been dealing with this my whole life, maybe it's here to stay until a few years ago. I ignored it as a sexual kink until I realized recently that there is more to it.

I'm not posting to ask for advice on any of the things I have mentioned so far, all of these issues and more are on the table in therapy. My main goal is to work up the courage to revisit "the talk" on my terms as I was taken by surprise and didn't give any input or ask questions eighteen years ago. My wife is liberal almost to a fault and a lot has happened since then including our oldest daughter coming out as a lesbian. My wife is fully supportive of her and always takes a tolerant understanding position in every discussion regarding sexuality and transgender issues so I'm encouraged by that. I think I have grown since "the talk" and so has she and sex has fallen off the table since then so I think that removes some of the tension that was part of our first conversation.

Basically I want to amend "the talk" and clarify exactly what I can do and where things stand. I've got dysphoria but it's not all about the dressing. I'm discussing that in therapy and I have read the sticky about coming out to our SO as well as watching videos on the subject. One concern that is the topic of this post is if she gives me an inch will I take a mile? Not that taking a mile is wrong but I recognize that I'm holding myself back and don't really know what I'm capable of if I had the freedom. I have thought of going on hormones "not to change my appearance but so I can get the calming effects" that are often discussed in posts on that subject. Deep down inside I think I might be fooling myself and can see me taking it further than I'm admitting to myself that I would. I know that's a serious step and do not take it lightly and will work through all of this in therapy before doing anything. One thing that I have learned so far in therapy is that I need to take my time and not rush anything. These are all serious long reaching decisions.

I don't know where this will end up but I do know at this point that I can't sit still and never progress beyond my vague DADT and the feeling that I am trapped in an impossible situation. It has been especially stressful as I had a bout with my blood pressure when the news turned all bad and that took a few weeks to resolve and killed my urge to dress. I didn't dress the whole week and a half that my wife was staying with her mother but finally felt up to it after a week and a half. I was all set to dress fully that night when I got a phone call that my mother-in-law had passed and my wife would be home that evening. The hospice nurse had visited earlier that day and her vitals were good and we didn't expect it to happen for a few more days so it was a sudden turn for the worst that evening. If my wife had not called I would have been caught fully dressed by an emotionally distraught wife who had just held her mother's hand as she took her last breath. That would have been the worst circumstances imaginable to get caught.

Thanks for reading this longer than normal post.

[GaleWarning]

You write well and explain yourself clearly, Star.
Perhaps when you revisit 'the talk', you should initiate via a well-written explanation of your position, along the same lines as this post.
Good luck.

[Star01]

Thanks for the compliment. I spent quite a few years writing a column for a motorsports paper and occasionally contributed articles to a nationally distributed magazine. I didn't go to school for writing but did learn a few things working with the publishers.

[Micki_Finn]

I see this ending badly. She made her feelings clear the first time. (“I don’t want to see it and I don’t want to know about it”). If her feelings had changed, she likely would have let you know. And “she’s supportive of our lesbian daughter” is a complete non-sequitur. She’s not married to your daughter, she’s married to YOU and it sounds like she’s pretty sure she wants to be married to a man. Just because she supports gay people, doesn’t mean she wants to be on a lesbian relationship. Heck, there are even gay people who are Anti-trans.

For gods sake you haven’t even figured out you yet, but you intend to explain yourself to your wife? Are you going to tell her you’ve thought about hormones?

And what about when it comes out you lied to her? “No I didn’t!” You say. Oh yes you did, wether intentional or not. “No, I just like doing this” is a far cry from “I’ve been considering hormones” and “I don’t know where this will end up.”

I mean, if you need to end your marriage in order to live authentically, then do what you need to do, but if you’re going j to this thinking all of a sudden your wife is going to start supporting your transition when she was DADT about your dressing, this will likely end badly.

[Teresa]

Star,
I know what it's like to have a controlling wife but I didn't realise how much until we separated , so may I ask whose life are you truly living ?

You say there was no "Ah ah ! " moment but do you accept either from what you know now or from therapy that were possibly born with this trait ? At some point the " Talk " does have to happen , perhaps you shouldn't excuse yourself by saying you don't like attention or make waves but you are still a person with needs , at some point you have to be honest with yourself and admit what you are , I hope therapy will help you with achieve that .

A controlling wife will think she can stop you but no matter what your personality , what we are dealing with is unstoppable until we can come to terms with it and find a balance . Your wife asks all the obvious questions but you're still not in a position to give her all the answers . Is it possible it may help if your wife was involved with your therapy ? I believe it might but my wife refused , I was the one that was broken and needed fixing , often they hope therapy leads to a cure , if you have dysphoria there is no cure , therapy will only help you live with it .

We are about the same age and been married the same timespan and truthfully I never expected to be separated and living full time , it's not a case of being introvert or extrovert it's more to do with being honest with yourself and everyone around you .


To come back to your question , of being given an inch and taking a mile , I'm not going to say it's inevtiable but you do need to find youself even if it takes more than a mile .

[kimdl93]

I won?t offer advice other than to discuss DADT with your counselor. I don?t see any reason to blow up a relationship that has lasted 50 years.

[Tracii G]

Just because she accepts your lesbian daughter don't think that means she will accept you as anything other than a man.
Why CDs assume if someone accepts gay people they will accept them as CDs it doesn't work that way.
Same goes for progressive areas of the country being more open to CDs again it doesn't work that way.
Go ahead and take that mile.

[Stephanie47]

I cannot imagine over the past 18 years your wife has not given you any clues as to whether she has mellowed or not towards cross dressing. A woman may be "liberal" towards the issue in the general population, but, also find it is not her "cup of tea." There is a good probability your wife has some knowledge of the extent of your cross dressing, but, chooses to not make an issue of it. I concur it is probably best to ask for guidance from your therapist. The advice you get here is worth exactly what you paid for it. Does your therapist believe joint counseling will be of benefit? How far do you really want to take it? If you're given an inch what will happen if you do take a mile?

[Aunt Kelly]

Tracii is right. A lesbian daughter is definitely not the same thing as a TG spouse. Don't make the mistake of equating them. You must accept that your wife's feelings are valid. This not what she signed up for. It may be that you work things out. It does happen. When it does, it seems like it's almost always when both partners come at the problem in a loving manner. BOTH partners.
I do wish you good fortune on the journey before you.

[SaraLin]

Star, I only have a couple thoughts I'd like to add.

You say you're in counselling. I'm assuming that your wife knows this - but do the two of you ever discuss what's talked about in these sessions? It seems to me that this would be a good way to bring up the difficulties in your current situation. Maybe something like "My counselor thinks I should talk to you about..."

Also - you don't strike me as the "runaway train" sort. It feels to me more like, even if given free rein, you'd probably still be slow and timid in your progress, constantly looking back at your wife to see if it's OK with her.

[Star01]

I knew when I posted that I'd be getting honest evaluation and the comments have been what I expected. True that I am timid and would likely not take a mile very quickly and likely would take things slow and deliberate. This post doesn't do justice to many years of casual comments that might put it into a clearer perspective as the post would be a mile long if I included the entire timeline of events and all of my thoughts.

I have been taking one for the team for years in the sense that I surpress my needs and defer to hers. I have a lot of experience in life but as you all point out very little experience with CD and TS issues. In a way I'm like a clueless country bumpkin with issues that are way out of my wheel house.

I will continue to monitor replies and take the advice and observations to heart.

[Di]

Star, I only have a couple thoughts I'd like to add.

You say you're in counselling. I'm assuming that your wife knows this - but do the two of you ever discuss what's talked about in these sessions? It seems to me that this would be a good way to bring up the difficulties in your current situation. Maybe something like "My counselor thinks I should talk to you about..."

Also - you don't strike me as the "runaway train" sort. It feels to me more like, even if given free rein, you'd probably still be slow and timid in your progress, constantly looking back at your wife to see if it's OK with her.

I agree with SaraLin,that would be a great way to get things opened up. You express yourself in writing ( wish i had that gift) you could even write it if you have a hard time talking about it to your wife.
Best Wishes.

[Star01]

My desire is to preserve the relationship with more freedom to explore my needs. Easier said than done but that is my desire as I have no compelling reason to sabotage the relationship. Hopefully that will be possible and there is a lot of work to do on myself before I get to that point.

[GretchenM]

In terms of personality it sounds like you and I are a lot alike. In reading your post there were many passages that sounded spookily familiar. My wife and your wife are similar in many ways with regard to attitude, although my wife may be just a bit more conservative. And the NIMBY attitude is present in both (NIMBY = not in my backyard). A line in the sand with regard to transgender.

A lot of that comes from thinking in terms of the gender binary which doesn't leave much room for gender reversal. That is why I think a good approach is to get her to be involved in your therapy more. It may not change her mind, but at least it may help her to understand her husband a little better. Beware of the "You need therapy and I don't" attitude in her. You may be able to break through that by appealing to her empathic tendencies which are apparently strong in her.

Being a controlling woman in some respects combined with a strict gender binary attitude, if that is the case, is not unexpected, but is a bit of a contradiction with being liberal which both my wife and I are. It is crossing the red line that separates gender based on sex rather than behavior that is the problem. My wife resists change; I love change. Not real compatible in that way. So, I respect her position and feelings and have no desire to dominate her the way she tries and sometimes successfully dominates me. That is stereotypical gender binary crap that has no place in the modern human world. That said, stereotypical thinking is hard to break through.

So, acceptance of your behavior is not likely to happen, but tolerance and understanding is possible. But she needs to make that change in her attitude and that is why getting her involved in the therapy is important. Talk to your therapist about how to gently pull her into some of the sessions. She obviously has a strong empathic streak but with this issue it is held back for some reason. I think you need to work on that aspect with her - to get her to be more open and accepting while not forcing her to comply with making a choice. By the way, that is a really masculine way of approaching it and as she is exhibiting male-like behavior in her thinking about gender expression that is just going to produce a battle. I think you may need to approach her through the empathy door.

I suspect we are of about the same age as my wife and I recently celebrated our 51st anniversary. It is tough to deal with change at this age, no matter what your sex. But as gender is actually a different thing from your sex and is actually non-binary except at the superficial level and can shift around even in old folks it is important at our age to recognize that some of the things we have believed for a long time actually make life far more difficult than it needs to be. If we loosen up our stereotypical thinking, life can become quite interesting, even in your 70's or 80's.

[Teresa]

Star,
You don't have to recall all the history as so many of us have been there and lived through similar circumstances .

It is sad to think you may sabotage your relationship , none of us set out with that intention . Personally it is fustrating to see some members living very happy lives with their wives/partners while totally embracing their TG issues . The problem is we never know the outcome until the " Talk " has happened and we all know those words can't be undone .

[Star01]

I know the implications for our relationship and that I am in a difficult situation. Just a general question and observation. I see a lot of posts celebrating life as crossdressers but I often feel like it's an affliction that is making my quiet low key life difficult. Does anybody or have any of you tried to run away from this and found that it became more and more difficult? That's how I feel, like I don't want to be what I am but I can't put it behind me because every time I push it back it pushes me further down the rabbit hole. I would love to be an average old guy without having to deal with this but that isn't working for me.

[April Rose]

I certainly would not have chosen it. There are too many downsides to it from a sociological and personal perspective. But as a challenge to be overcome or lessons to be learned I can think of a lot that I would choose cross dressing over. For all the discomfort there has always been an upside for me as well. Not the least is the pretty clothes and fabric crafts.

[Helen_Highwater]

Star,

Are you out to your daughter? If not how do you think she'd react?

It'd be wrong to out yourself to your daughter and hope she'd be your ally in any discussions with your SO. It may be however a way of sounding out an opinion of just how she thinks your SO may react. We all change and your SO's stance taken all those years ago may have softened as views in society have mellowed. Having an input from someone from within the family might just give you a more insight.

[Paulie Birmingham]

I know the implications for our relationship and that I am in a difficult situation. Just a general question and observation. I see a lot of posts celebrating life as crossdressers but I often feel like it's an affliction that is making my quiet low key life difficult. Does anybody or have any of you tried to run away from this and found that it became more and more difficult? That's how I feel, like I don't want to be what I am but I can't put it behind me because every time I push it back it pushes me further down the rabbit hole. I would love to be an average old guy without having to deal with this but that isn't working for me.

If you don't want to go down that path, and your current therapist isn't helping, maybe you should look for another therapist.

[Teresa]

Star,
Twenty years ago I nearly did the ultimate in running away but thankfully lived to tell the tale , it was not through feeling it was an affliction but simply because I felt so rejected and unloved by my wife after I came out . I do feel I have something to celebrate now and why not ? It's been a long time coming .

The fact you feel this way won't make it go away , how you truly feel has nothing to do with your wife whether she fully accepts it or not , you have to come to terms with it through your therapist and accept the truth . You really can't spend the rest of your life putting yourself down for something that has no cure . You may not believe this but after all I've been through my wife now respects me for being honest with myself , no matter what she did or said couldn't solve my dysphoria I had to do it for myself and take the consequences .

[Jenny22]

Star, Helen Highwater touched on something, for the first time in these discussions. Are you out to your daughter?If you are and have a loving relationship, she can be an ally, if she's willing. Talk to your therapist about it. Your daughter could be of great help, if you decide to discuss the situation with your wife, If she respects your daughters POV, that could work in your favor.

[Teresa]

Jenny,
You have to be careful with suggesting that way out , my daughter is very supportive of me , I've been out with here to shows ,shopping and also with her and her daughter . my wife was furious , she had many heated arguments with our daughter , eventually she did back off when told she's an adult and now free to make her own decisions . It hard to say who was right or wrong but I felt it was unfair on my daughter being made " Piggy in the middle "

[Paulie Birmingham]

Star,
you have to come to terms with it through your therapist and accept the truth . .

Whose truth? Yours? You have this habit of thinking everyone on this site wants to go down your path or will inevitably go down your path. That's simply not the case for many people on this forum. We have all found our own truth which is vastly different.

The OP needs to find his own truth. And that I think takes some work. If the OP's therapist isn't helpful, he should find a second one to talk to.

If I told someone I wanted to do hormones, I hope someone would have critical discussions with me rather then someone tell me its the truth

[Star01]

It's easy for readers to assume things about my situation from a truncated post that only scratches the surface. One big thing in my life was 25 years spent in a fundamentalist sect as a lay minister but I can't go into detail about that and how it affected me due to rules. That produced much guilt including shunning and a fractured family. Crossdressing and gender issues and my fundamentalist past are two huge issues that shape who I am and my current situation. I apologize if I said too much but that is a huge part of my life that I can't go into detail about. I was force fed an apocalyptic world view that still messes with my mind twenty years after I walked away from it. One of four adult kids is still involved and would report me and get me in trouble twenty years later and would guarantee losing one of my daughters and opening up a lot of trouble from my past. Hopefully I have addressed that part of me in the proper way without going into detail on the subject.

[Teresa]

Paulie,
Sorry but that's an absurd comment , I'm obvioulsy not talking about my version of the truth , it would be between Star and his/her therapist . Whatever road Star feels should be taken it will be her decision not mine . Some people have never been through therapy , I'm only using my example for possible guidance for Star .

Star,
I hope you didn't feel I was putting words in your mouth , now you've revealed a little more background it is obvioulsy making the situation more difficult for you .

Like you I feel now I've said too much !!

[Star01]

Don't worry, I take no offense over anything anyone could possibly say to me in a forum post. It's impossible to convey every issue and how they intersect without going further than is allowed on here due to the subject matter of one of the major issues that affects my life and relationship with adult children.

- - - Updated - - -

I have a good relationship with my oldest daughter but I wouldn't think of putting her in that position. Obviously I'm certain she would be accepting and likely relieved to no longer be the focus of family attention. She left a twenty year marriage when she came out and it got pretty messy with extended family but everyone in the immediate family except one religious daughter were fine with it.

[Di]

To those that gave their opinions no more back and forth ....you had your say.
Thank you Star for explaining about the religious aspect without saying much because- rules.
We all give advice from our life experience/ what we have gone through.
We want to help and Star I am glad you get that’s where the advice comes from and take no offense.
Everyone else you made your point drop it and let others join in.

[Star01]

Thank you Di. My past religious experiences are a huge part of my life and directly affected my crossdressing over the years. I felt like I was coming across wrong without at least being able to acknowledge that as it had such a profound effect. I'm glad that I was able to broach the subject without going too far and getting myself in trouble. I take no offense and know that everyone means well so no worries.

[MichaelM]

Star

Lots of good advice here.

My thoughts: if you are not sure where this will end up, you have two choices. Either come clean and have "the talk" again but tell her that you are not sure where it's going to end up but you need time to explore and you will let her know as soon as you can. Or take the time with your therapist to work out what you want and where this is going to go and then tell her.

Neither is ideal.

I wouldn't worry about "taking a mile" if given a inch. If you have a latent desire to progress the CDing then there's nothing you can do to supress it. It will only make you unhappy. Unfortunately whilst DADT may have worked for a number of years, taking things further may well put a strain on your relationship with your wife that becomes unsurmountable.

Whatever you do, good luck!

[Star01]

Your first paragraph pretty much sums things up. I only dress fully when she or I am spending the night somewhere as that is the only time I can be certain nobody will walk in on me. Under normal circumstances that can be as often as a couple times a month but this lockdown brought those opportunities to a screeching halt. I think that has caused me to go kind of stir crazy and yearning for more freedom. The freedom to shop online and take deliveries is another thing I long for. Hasty thrift store shopping while worrying about being seen in the store by someone I know and not being able to size or inspect items closely leads to a lot of wasted time and money. My experience reminds me of the scene in the movie called Normal where the lead character would nervously grab things in thrift stores only to find they were stained or didn't fit properly after he got them home. The setting of the movie was a small Midwestern town where everyone knew each other by name and that resonated with me. I underdress, paint my nails and dress a little late at night but that isn't a substitute for dressing fully with wig and makeup and my wardrobe is feeble so the combination of those things is causing a lot of frustration. I am tired of hiding and am getting depressed by those circumstances and my post reflects that frustration.

I'm working towards the goal of opening up and getting myself some wiggle room so I don't feel so trapped in a hopeless situation. My therapist is helping but the whole thing really boils down to me overcoming my fears and making it happen. I think my wife and I are both in a different place now and with sex off the table I think that changes the dynamics of the "I married a man" narrative. At this point in our lives I think she would appreciate a garage sale partner who can admire pretty things more than the stud women want when they're younger. That is my feeling knowing her as well as I do and our current situation. It really comes down to me as I see us being able to work something out. We have both grown a lot as people since this first came up years ago. My biggest problem is that I'm too meek to say what's on my mind and I'm not going to get any results positive or negative until I work up the courage to open up.