best way to get our rights

[Donna O]

I like to hear others thoughts on how they feel is best way to get the legal,civil rights.

1) brave but failed court cases like Oiler v. Winn Dixie.

2) lots of local laws that have little reach.

3) state laws that only help a few more then local laws

4) inclusion in current Federal law

5) new and gender only laws


I like to hear from person in and out of closet

[Kimberley]

Forgot.........Social Change.

Kimberley

[KimberlyS]

IMHO,
Laws will make people put up with anyone, legally. Most people do not like being told what to do.

If we want "True Acceptance", this is only going to be gained through education and getting out in the public. And IMHO the CDers that are out and about and "Pass" and no-one to a few know they are out, are not what we need.

We need to be out and be known that we are out and be seen as crossdressers or guys wearing alternative or feminine clothing

IMHO a non-passing cder or a guy in a dress, that is out in public and dressed in a tasteful/conservative/appropriate manor will gain alot more acceptance than a "Passing" cder that no-one or only other cd/tg people know about.

We need to be known and seen as decent people. Not just the idiots that commit crimes and make the news or the fetish dressers that are offen just seen as Rebels .

KimberlyS

P.S. I did not say it was easy to do.

[Donna O]

I am out dressed most weekends and days off, wife at my side.
The point I was trying to make, is that social change take time and a hard kick in the a**

The Oiler vs. Winn Dixie was by most account's was a total failure. So that said what is the next correct step

[kristine239]

Suggest you go to www.nctequality.org and see what others are doing for you.

this is a good way to start.

[Georgette]

I like to hear others thoughts on how they feel is best way to get the legal,civil rights.

1) brave but failed court cases like Oiler v. Winn Dixie.

2) lots of local laws that have little reach.

3) state laws that only help a few more then local laws

4) inclusion in current Federal law

5) new and gender only laws


I like to hear from person in and out of closet

As I have always said and I still stick to it the world as a whole does not accept us as we are and I don't think it ever will accept us as to who or what we are. Lets face it we are already sterotyped as being either Gay or Lesbian, and they seem to be winning thier battle, maybe we would be better off claiming that we are one or the other, I think we would get just maybe a little further in or battle.
I hope I have made my point and not offended anyone.:)

[KimberlyS]

Donna, Rights IMHO are given based on society's view on whether you need to have rights. Just a few examples, slavery, womans vote, gay/lesbian rights.

Prior to the change, the staus quo was that these people did not have certain rights. But in each case the group stepped forward, took a Very Public stand, Worked and Educated for a change in rights.

We as cders are not standing up as a whole group. We are standing in small groups, in behind the gay/lesbian groups saying include us. We tell the TG/TS groups that CDers are TG also, include us. The only CD based group that I know that promotes CDers is Tri-Ess, and please inform me if there is others. And Tri-Ess often takes heat for having too focused of a support area. I hope all of us join and support an organization trying to make a difference for everyone even if you do not agree with all of their workings, being it Tri-Ess or some other group or organization pushing for increasing the rights of TG people.

Yes there are cders like you out and about and that is so wonderful you can be out and be yourself. But you are some of the few, and often those that are out are not known as cders, just another person in the public. I have heard of no one wearing a sign that says "Hi I am a crossdresser, please accept me for who I am". So often how is the public/society suppose to know we are cders if we are trying to pass and be mainstream???? All the public sees for the most part are those cders that are in the news and talk shows. Yuk for acceptance and education for the most part.

Legally there is some change taking place on city and state levels with the TG / GLBT / CD national and local organizations. But it is slow because so much of it is one on one education.

If you want major change to rights and acceptance, then I propose a national coming out day for all TG people (CD to TS). Go to work in a dress, if you are a panty CD, wear the panties on the outside, if you are a bra cd, wear the bra on the outside, if you are a guy in a dress or skirt be that for the day, if you are a full femme cder go to work in full femme. And give society the "hard kick in the a**" that you propose.

But in reality, myself, like many, will go to work as normal wishing we had, but we did not want our wifes to find out that way, or we did not want anything bad to happen to our family, we do not want our kids to have to deal with the verbal abuse at school, or we do not want to loose our jobs, or ...., or ..., or worse. Just look at the number of us that can not even tell our wifes or girlfriends often until we are caught and forced to do it.

And guess what history shows us, the people on the forefront of changes in rights can go through some bad times, as I am sure you can tell me. Some will loose alot, familys go through alot and very trying times to hold the family together, people loose jobs as you know, people need to move because those around them make it unlivable, people go to jail, and some die for the cause.

IMHO, until we can get some critical mass showing of the TG population to the public, our rights are going to come alittle at a time. And not because there is not proof that we need them. But a large visible show of hands is the best way to get things done. Power in numbers.

If there was a better and easier way please someone tell me.

KimberlyS

[Ashley in Virginia]

good luck

[KimberlyS]

Thank you kristine for the link to the National Center for Transgender Equality. It looks like another good group to support.

KimberlyS

[stephanie100]

I dont know the law in other countries. Here in the UK we can change birth certificates but only after the op. We van marry etc but only after the op a start but a long way to go yet.

[Deborah]

"Our" rights are not going to be handed to us or given by those who don't accept. It's going to be one of those things where we'll have to fight in court and on the streets.

[sharifemme]

Kimberly...

Well said! The more we can be out and in public acting like normal(?) people, the sooner we will impress on others that we aren't as terrible as the news and entertainment media has made us out to be.

Sharifemme




IMHO,
Laws will make people put up with anyone, legally. Most people do not like being told what to do.

If we want "True Acceptance", this is only going to be gained through education and getting out in the public. And IMHO the CDers that are out and about and "Pass" and no-one to a few know they are out, are not what we need.

We need to be out and be known that we are out and be seen as crossdressers or guys wearing alternative or feminine clothing

IMHO a non-passing cder or a guy in a dress, that is out in public and dressed in a tasteful/conservative/appropriate manor will gain alot more acceptance than a "Passing" cder that no-one or only other cd/tg people know about.

We need to be known and seen as decent people. Not just the idiots that commit crimes and make the news or the fetish dressers that are offen just seen as Rebels .

KimberlyS

P.S. I did not say it was easy to do.

[Butterfly Bill]

IMHO,
If we want "True Acceptance", this is only going to be gained through education and getting out in the public. And IMHO the CDers that are out and about and "Pass" and no-one to a few know they are out, are not what we need.

We need to be out and be known that we are out and be seen as crossdressers or guys wearing alternative or feminine clothing

IMHO a non-passing cder or a guy in a dress, that is out in public and dressed in a tasteful/conservative/appropriate manor will gain alot more acceptance than a "Passing" cder that no-one or only other cd/tg people know about.

We need to be known and seen as decent people. Not just the idiots that commit crimes and make the news or the fetish dressers that are offen just seen as Rebels .

P.S. I did not say it was easy to do.
Been doing that for the last 12 years, and it is a lot easier than you might think. I'll say to a policeman that I consider myself a transgendered person if he asks why I am wearing a dress, but that's really kind of a fib. I am not really trans anything, I am a male who wants to be super liberated, and the concept of the liberated man I have found to be easy for lots of people to accept, moreso than a man who wants to be a woman.

I agree, all these people who are trying to pass aren't presenting any kind of force of people for change. They ain't gonna know how many there are of us if they can't recognize us.

[Felicity]

Well, I am against anything outside of education and just getting out and making yourself known. We have all the legal rights we need.


The Oiler vs. Winn Dixie was by most account's was a total failure. So that said what is the next correct step

I tried to search the case, but came up with close to nothing. All I found was the person was a crossdresser outside of work and was fired. My experience tells me that most the times, a person is terminated for some reason and the employer doesn’t even have a clue of their personal habits. However, in the society today of frivolous lawsuits, it is common for people to unethically use the legal system for personal gain and revenge.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t know what happened in this case. Most places have legal recourse for improper firing. Without more facts, I cannot see this as prejudice. Can you link the court case findings please?


"Our" rights are not going to be handed to us or given by those who don't accept. It's going to be one of those things where we'll have to fight in court and on the streets.

Back to court… This is why I responded. I think the biggest problem with using the courts is most the time, there is no prevailing case. As long as people bring up cases that are not rooted in bias, but trying to show a bias when often something else occurred, things will only get worse for the CD community. The average population will just see us as trying to hurt others.

I have chiropractor friend who was sued once because he could not treat a certain injury and referred a patient to a real doctor. Some days later, he was issued a court summons because he would not treat a homosexual. He didn’t even know his sexuality bet the patient saw dollar signs. My friend won the court case, couldn’t collect legal fees, couldn’t see his regular appointments so his patients used a different chiropractor. He went bankrupt defending himself.

I would suggest that anyone who want to see laws changed consider the consequences to society if they are improperly created! Frivolous lawsuits today are already destroying many hard working citizens!

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Well, I am against anything outside of education and just getting out and making yourself known. We have all the legal rights we need.

No we don't. Not when you can be fired for being GLBT in most states and have no legal recourse.


I tried to search the case, but came up with close to nothing.

Apparently you didn't search very hard.

http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/transgender/12291prs20001023.html

http://www.ntac.org/news/01/12/15wd.html

http://www.tgcrossroads.org/news/archive.asp?aid=565

The text of the actual complaint itself:
http://www.aclufl.org/legislature_courts/legal_department/briefs_complaints/oiler_complaint.cfm

http://www.tgcrossroads.org/news/archive.asp?aid=390




a person is terminated for some reason and the employer doesn’t even have a clue of their personal habits.

Peter Oilers employer knew.


However, in the society today of frivolous lawsuits, it is common for people to unethically use the legal system for personal gain and revenge.

The most common type of lawsuit in the US are lawsuits between businesses not lawsuits against businesses from individuals.


Most places have legal recourse for improper firing.

Except in states with "right to work" "Fire at Will" laws, like most of the states down south.


I have chiropractor friend who was sued once because he could not treat a certain injury and referred a patient to a real doctor. Some days later, he was issued a court summons because he would not treat a homosexual.

Question, how do you know your friend wasn't lying. You weren't at the person's appointment, maybe the doctor said something homophobic? You simply don't know.


Veronica

[Donna O]

Hello Everone;

Outed, What does it really mean. Being found out? Being out in public? Being all over the mass media for awhile? Peter Oiler of Oiler vs Winn Dixie has done that already.

A lot of people were educated on the subject. Peter Oiler got a lot of support that he did not expect. Winn Dixie got a lot of publicity that they did not want.

[Julie Avery]

Kimberly...

Well said! The more we can be out and in public acting like normal(?) people, the sooner we will impress on others that we aren't as terrible as the news and entertainment media has made us out to be.

Sharifemme

I vote for what Shari said, which goes back to what Kimberly said. I couldn't say it any better or add anything to it, and I strongly agree with it.

[Glenda]

We as CD'ers love to feel that we pass. We don't really need to pass. We just need to be accepted without guilt, shame or reprisal. I don't wear a dress to work. I would love to at times. I don't wear a suit either. I do wear lipstick, necklace, bracelet, feminine ring, ankle bracelt, eye shadow or mascarea on occasion, have manicured nails, etc. Girls, we can't wait for some legislature to pass a law that tells everyone to like us and accept us. We already have laws which forbid discrimation. That doesn't make anyone accept us.

I love to dress, put on full makeup and feel feminine. If I go somewhere there is a better than even chance that most people won't give me a second glance. All that proves is that life today doesn't encourage a lot of interaction with others.

If you want to make a difference then come out to your friends, family and neighbors. You don't have to flaunt it. Elderly parents may not want to know. That's OK. But if you want others to accept you then you have to give others a chance to accept you. When I go out dressed I can choose to go where no one knows me.....or I can choose to go visit a friend or out to eat with friends or whatever. The point is, whether the people around me know that I'm a man wearing a dress is not important. Interacting socially with those that I care about is important.

You can wait for others to legislate your rights or you can assume you have rights. I choose to feel that I have them. Acceptance is wonderful and it really hasn't been as hard as I believed it would be. Not everyone likes it. Most don't care. If they like you, they like you. When our family, friends and neighbors learn to accept us then society as a whole will follow suit.

[Helen MC]

Over here in the UK we have strong Laws against Racial and Sexual discrimination and abuse and prosecutions have taken place. HOWEVER there is still hatred for Blacks, Asians, and Homosexuals. You can't legislate people to love each other.

I do feel that we should have some legal protection but it will take a long time to be "accepted". Ironically in modern British Society there are now those who will accept a Male Homosexual or a Lesbian but still rankle at a Heterosexual Crossdresser.

[eleventhdr]

Skirt and Dress march!:.

Suzy!:.

[Helen MC]

As I said on the Leader Thread we could do with a high profile and already popular public figure, preferably in the world of entertainment or sports to come out as a CD. The "Gay" movement had this advantage when Actors, Sportsmen, Entertainers, and later Politicians , came out of the closet, and although as I have said, hatred still exists in certain quarters and will still be held, as far as the average man in the street is concerned a male homosexual is neither here nor there if he encounters him in a bar, restaurant, in work, on the golf course, etc, etc. Where I work we have some "Gay" workers on the shop floor and nobody is bothered by or about them, they are simply part of the workforce and are judged on their abilities at work and how they interact with others and not on their sexuality. However, were I to come into work wearing a skirt instead of trousers , I know I would meet with cruel comments and verbal , and possibly even physical abuse.

I have often wondered about the famous and indeed iconic Nick Kaymen advert for Levi Jeans where he takes them off in a launderette (laundromat) and is wearing a pair of Boxer Shorts underneath. This did a lot for the sale of these dreadful male undergarments which had been out of fashion before then. Now if Kaymen had been wearing a pair of women's PANTIES under his Levis would that have given a positive spin to men wearing them and possibly have made a break in the dam as regards further M to F CD activities? I had hoped that when David Beckham (the once famous Soccer Star for US readers who are unfamiliar with him) admitted to wearing his wife's, Victoria Adams of Spice Girls fame, panties and also a sarong that this would have been beneficial to CDs here in the UK but perhaps he wasn't a powerful enough figure to precipitate a paradigm change in this regard. Alas, we still await our "Messiah".

[KimberlyS]

.... Being all over the mass media for awhile? Peter Oiler of Oiler vs Winn Dixie has done that already.

A lot of people were educated on the subject. Peter Oiler got a lot of support that he did not expect. Winn Dixie got a lot of publicity that they did not want.

Donna, I really do understand your frustration. As you really have done your part and more to progress the education and rights issues. What I am saying is we need more of us also doing the education and getting out being known in public. While one person can do alot as in your case, it usually will not win the entire war, only minor battles. What has been done by you and others so far has brought us ( CD/TG ) into view of people/society. The general public/society now needs to see a visual of truly how big of a population of us there is.

When the Gays and Lesbians were at this point many of them came out to their friends and family and there were peaceful gatherings to show their numbers. When Rosa Parks would not move to the back of the bus, things did not end there, there were mostly peaceful gatherings, and large numbers of people pushing for change.

While we have large numbers of people wanting change, I do not see these large numbers of people coming out to be counted for us. And you know as well all I do, while we know there are lots of us, what is the true count. Most of us are too scared for what ever the reason to even raise our hands and be counted, let alone come out of the closet.

KimberlyS - CD

[Donna O]

Hello Everyone;


One way to get the numbers out is public, state and Federal documents.

The 2000 Federal Census did include a space that you can tell them if you were transgendered. It might be one the 2010 census also.

When you see on a application or form the words sex/ gender underline
gender, and put what you feel fits you best. Even if you have to hand write the word Trans.

Lane Bryant no longer asks your gender on credit applications.

[Donna O]

Hello Everyone;


Let me introduce Myself ---- I am Lady SMO. I have been doing most of the latest post under Donna O name with her permission.

I am the person that keeps mentioning Peter Oiler and Oiler vs Winn Dixie.
I am the spouse of Peter that ex " Crossdressing Truck Driver ".

I saw what the descimination at work; the loss of his job; the trial;
and the aftermath has done to us both. The whole thing had a lot of bad points but some good did come out of it. Education of the public was a big plus for the good side. On a sad note; It did come to close to breaking up our marriage a few times.

The trial may have not been the best way to go. But there were not a lot of options for remedy at the time. Things have not gotten much better thru the court system still where we are located.

[Felicity]

Since you know so much, what happened? Where can I find the findings and evidence?

[Donna O]

Dear Felicity and Everyone;


If you want proof of who I am look up information on Oiler Vs Winn Dixie.
Articles can be found on the following sites : NTAC, Genderpac, ACLU and other places. Some might mention his wife Shirley M. Oiler --- SMO.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Since you know so much, what happened? Where can I find the findings and evidence?

Ummm, I posted them earlier in the thread?


Veronica

[Donna O]

Dear Veronica;

Thank you for posting the web sites earlier.....

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Laws will have some effect -- they played a significant role in reducing racial discrimination by society drawing a line in the sand and saying it wouldn't tolerate that sort of thing. Does racial discrimination still exist? Of course it does -- but the sort of blatant bigotry of 40 years ago is the exception rather than the rule and typically is condemned when it comes to light.

Enforcing those laws will mean some court battles by folks with the courage to pursue them.

But the real change will come as more people meet folks along the TG spectrum. There was a recent poll in California that found tolerance for gays and lesbian has risen in recent years. A major factor in someone's tolerance was whether they knew a gay or lesbian and that number has been steadily growing.

Gay and lesbian activists have been adept at using the "we're just like you" argument -- although one of the side effects has been that they've often marginized bisexuals and trans folk, both of whom blur lines in ways that larger society tends to more uncomfortable with. As one interesting essay (http://phobos.ramapo.edu/~jweiss/glvsbt.htm) on the issue put it, we both pass too well and not nearly well enough. For better or worse, the "just like you" argument has also been adopted by trans activists, with the same side-effect of sweeping things we're not comfortable with under the rug. Which may work for the short-term, but could well bite us later on.

To be honest, transsexuals are probably going to continue to take the lead on it -- when it's something you're living 24/7 you don't have a choice of not dealing with it. Plus they're usually out, whereas the vast majority of CDs are in the closet. I've raised the issue with some trans activists, but no one's really come up with a good way of ways that CDs could become more involved in while still retaining their privacy. Unfortunately, it's a bit of a Catch-22, until there's a less of a social stigma CDs are less likely to be activists, but it will take CD activists to reduce the social stigma.

OTOH, there are things we can all do. Letter-writing -- I may be writing under a nom de femme, but I still vote. Outreach -- some of us have volunteered to speak to college classes. Or when you buy something writing the retailer and letting them know that you're a CD and letting them know what kind of service you received. Greed has a funny way of sparking tolerance and the business community is reaching out to gays and lesbians because they realize they're a big market. Or do something as simple as being out and being proud. You don't have to buttonhole people about trans issues, but try making some small talk with a stranger while your out. And if it's appropriate then raise a few points about crossdressing. Or if you're not comfortable going out in public, join some other online group (about something you're interested in) as your femme persona and don't hide the fact you're a CD.

In short, move enough pebbles and the avalanche begins.

[Bernice]

Marlena's post is the most inspirational so far. Thanks Marlena!

Still, I identify with KimberlyS, who said:


While we have large numbers of people wanting change, I do not see these large numbers of people coming out to be counted for us. And you know as well all I do, while we know there are lots of us, what is the true count. Most of us are too scared for what ever the reason to even raise our hands and be counted, let alone come out of the closet.


My personal challenge to myself is to come to grips with what I really fear the most, and figure out how to do exactly as Marlena proposes.

Wish me luck. I am afraid.

Hugs,

Bernice

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Thanks Bernice,

OK, here's a real-life chance to do something. Chicago's first openly gay alderman, Tom Tunney, is working (http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-baton01.html) to free male and female impersonators from a zoning restriction that classifies drag shows as "adult entertainment cabarets," which basically means they're unable to operate in 95% of Chicago.


If somebody walks on stage and they're a female acting as a male, what part of that is so objectionable? It's commonly accepted as mainstream entertainment. It's an artistic form now. There's not the fear surrounding it that there was 40 or 50 years ago.

Granted Tunney is probably doing this for his drag queen consistuency, but here's a chance to thank someone for helping to "mainstream" crossdressing -- and to let him know there's a lot more of us than he may realize. And that we not only vote, but also remember who our friends are (I'm sure that like most politicians Tunney probably has ambitions for high office on of these days.)

It doesn't really matter whether you live in Chicago -- part of it is simply building awareness, since you can be sure politicians talk to each other and discovering a constituency that may gain them votes will get their attention.

You can contact Tunney's office at Ward44@cityofchicago.org

[Helen MC]

More power to Alderman Tunney's elbow! Frankly, I don't give a damn HOW we hetero CDs and TVs achieve the right to cross-dress in public, protected by Law and if it comes on the back of pressure from the Gay lobby (which is now very powerful and influential here in the UK) then that is just fine by me.

[Kimberly]

If we truly want acceptance in our society, it should not be the legislation that is passed that will change people's view on our style of living... Social change is reflected in movements: 1st and 2nd phase Feminism, Civil Rights movements of Martin Luther King, and hopefully stuff like Live 8. Therefore, what we need to is make ourselves known publically (I'm not talking coming out - rather having faces in the media that show that we are good people who are trying to enjoy life and make it our own.) Figures do this very well: Eddie Izzard, Boy George for example. Although the second is true transgenderism, it still pushed gender boundries of the nineteen twenties. The bonus that Eddie Izzard has at his disposal is that he can make people laugh, making him something that is not threatening.

Beliefs are constantly changing though: I feel as though most of my friends would have no problem, (most don't - those I've come out to,) about my dressing and active transgenderism. This kind of day to day stuff is fine, but for social change something bigger needs to come out. Hopefully in the next 20 years, some of the younger transgendered generation will have the will and determination to show the world who we are and what we stand for.