Are we LGBTQ?

[Michelle Vinova]

My employer offered an optional seminar to raise awareness about LGBTQ. Discussion on gender, sex, pronouns, challenges, etc.

The speaker was a transfemine non-binary person from an Los Angeles LGBT organization.

This individual (they) clearly thought of Crossdressers as excluded from LGBTQ.

During their presentation, Drag was described as only for entertainment and not part of gender identity.

And then when later asked specifically about cross dressers inclusion in LGBTQ, their response was that CDs do it for sexual reasons and not part of their identity. So No.

I know some of you will say who cares about whether or not we?re in the LGBTQ community. And here we go again with the labels. ..But I was pretty surprised by the explicit exclusion. Particularly when gender fluidity was part of the conversation.

What do you think? Are we in or out and why?

[CarlaWestin]

I'm a crossdresser for pleasure. It used to be an escape obsession but now it's just a unique personal comfort zone.
I am none of the other letters and never will be. I don't consider any denial by being excluded from anything.
The latest awareness escalation is political at best IMHO. So, add me to the don't care list.

[Robertacd]

Like it or not I think CD's fall under the Transgender umbrella. But I have had quite a few CD's here adamantly disagree with that

Drag Queens maybe or maybe not. As I know some of the local Queens are theater majors at the local university, and are basically doing it just for the tips.

[Michelle Vinova]

As primarily heterosexual males, it makes sense that most CDs not really caring about being part of the LGBT activism. And thus, LGBT dont view us as part of their community.

But I agree with you Carly that CDing is part of personal comfort zone. I think transgenderism is a spectrum and CDs are on the lower end where we do have the need to express our femininity but don?t need to transition full time.

Where it matters beyond silly politics is the recent Supreme Court decision in the U.S. ... if we are included, we are in the protected class if we were to be fired from our job because our employer found out we CD.

[Sandi Beech]

Wow this one could be a hot potato discussion so I am not going the weigh in other than this thought. One of our local drag queens was also Miss Gay America as I believe the title said a few years ago. So where would that leave her?

I guess it would really just depend on how the person feels about their orientation, not how they dress or choose to entertain.

Sandi

[Kimberly A.]

Michelle, I think it's really a matter of opinion and who you ask..... It is of MY personal opinion that CD'ers are not LGBTQ, unless they are gay, bisexual or transgender. Also, I guess, unless you just wish to identify as such.

As for me, I do not wish to identify as being part of the LGBTQ community. I am a 100% straight guy who likes to cross-dress and I have NO desire, whatsoever of being transgender. I cross-dress, not because it's a fetish, but it is very pleasurable for me and I just like to temporarily be a woman every so often..... If that makes any sense. LOL

- - - Updated - - -

[QUOTE=Robertacd;4454379]Like it or not I think CD's fall under the Transgender umbrella.

Roberta, I must respectfully disagree with that..... If most, if not all M to F CD'ers here who are like me and do not wish to transition to the opposite gender, then it would stand to reason that we don't identify as being transgender, or part of the LGBTQ community.

Now, for those of us who go out in public while dressed, if we were to be figured out by other people that we are, in fact, men in women's clothing, then yes someone may assume that we're gay or transgender...… But you know what they say about assuming. :D

[Sarah Doepner]

If we are to use the term "Transgender" as an umbrella term, there is no reason not to include CD's. You can say what you will about where you or someone you know will end up, but I doubt there is a consistent way to forecast any one person's future. So where is the benefit in excluding anyone who experiences any value in exploring beyond their assigned gender at birth?

My definition of Transgender is any behavior that breaks away from the normal ranges that define Cis-gender and provide any satisfaction or comfort. It extends all the way to a full medical, social, legal and psychological transition. That's what an umbrella does, it covers and protects as much as possible. As soon as that protection is removed from someone arbitrarily classified as a Crossdresser, just pushes them away and exposes them to unnecessary and unwanted judgement.

From the age of 5 or 6 until I started hormones over 60 years later I was attempting to understand the complex relationship I had with gender. Each time I was crossdressed I was probably dealing at some level with dysphoria, even if I didn't recognize it at the time. As I changed, so did the dysphoria. I spent those years exploring and coming to terms with who I have become and would argue there is no single point in that timeline where I was not Transgender. I may have called myself a Crossdresser and I may have convinced others there was no chance in the world I would consider transition, but here I am. When I crossdress now, I pretend to be a man, am I no longer transgender when that happens? It's not time to split hairs or be exclusionary, open it up as wide as possible and let's have as many members and allies as possible as we move forward.

[MichaelM]

It depends.

I'm low on the scale so see myself not part of LGBT as I'm a heteroosexual male who just happens to have a particular sartorial affection.

But I can also see that those who take things further could and should be included especially if they are then discriminated against in society.

[Stevie Lane]

So crossdressing is an effect that has a consciousness based/psychological cause. Transvestism. Though usually it is a temporary crossing over from one thing to the other, as perhaps a coping mechanism. Perhaps the temporary nature of it does not fit in with LGBTQI.... So it depends on the individual circumstances and what impact it has on ones life overall.

Well that post achieved a lot. :)

[MarinaTwelve200]

Some LGBTQs Cross dress----But it is more of an IDENTITY thing and sometimes a dating "Strategy". But us CDers / Transvestites are straight and do not Identify as women being part of the definition. It has a Direct connection to Sexual feelings but varies, as in fetishism, sadomasochism (Humiliation) autogynephilia, and other non sexual identity based urges like "escapisim" and the "rush" one get from violating Taboos etc.---- As the REASONS we Cross dress vary widely and are more Psychologically based rather than A congenital biological condition like in LGBQT cases.

[Aka_Donna]

Have you listened to the agony on the forum? I don't see this agony being any different than the agony of being gay. I guess some LGBTQ are not LGBTQ+ and are more NIMBY

[Micki_Finn]

They are correct on Drag not being gender identity, though there are gender variant people who do drag. As far as the crossdresser thing, it?s a semantics issue. Many within the LGBT community will say that if you?re NOT doing it for sexual pleasure, that makes you trans. Just because you don?t want to transition doesn?t make you not trans. There are LOTS of trans folks who have no desire to modify their bodies surgically or hormonally.
So it?s more that the LGBTQ community uses a wider definition of trans, and a narrower definition of ?crossdresser?. I?ve mentioned this a few times on these forums.

[FairyCrossdresser]

If you Google ?what does the Q stand for in LGBTQ? you get the answer ?queer? or ?questioning?.

On that basis, it probably boils down to, do you think you are LGBTQ? - as the Q would seem to be fairly open to interpretation.

[Michelle Vinova]

They are correct on Drag not being gender identity, though there are gender variant people who do drag. As far as the crossdresser thing, it?s a semantics issue. Many within the LGBT community will say that if you?re NOT doing it for sexual pleasure, that makes you trans. Just because you don?t want to transition doesn?t make you not trans. There are LOTS of trans folks who have no desire to modify their bodies surgically or hormonally.
So it?s more that the LGBTQ community uses a wider definition of trans, and a narrower definition of ?crossdresser?. I?ve mentioned this a few times on these forums.


Thanks Micki

I think that?s what caught me most off guard was to so narrowly define CDs as only doing it for sexual reasons.

If they would have described it as you have ...or others above have with the nuances ... would?ve been appreciated. Instead, they left a group of people thinking that cross dressers just do it for a sexual fetish.

[Megan G]

Right from glaad’s website (https://www.glaad.org/transgender/transfaq)

“ Transgender is a term used to describe people whose gender identity differs from the sex they were assigned at birth. Gender identity is a person's internal, personal sense of being a man or a woman (or boy or girl.) For some people, their gender identity does not fit neatly into those two choices. For transgender people, the sex they were assigned at birth and their own internal gender identity do not match.”

So with that said since you all identify firmly as males, your gender identity matches your birth gender..... you do not belong under the “transgender” label. I’ve seen stuff that does include you but honestly if you read above you can see why this is not possible.

As for being a part of the LGBT...... unless your gay than again the answer would be no...... your a bunch of heterosexual dudes that like to dress up..... that’s it....and nothing to be ashamed about..

[HelpMe,Rhonda]

If we're not, we're adjacent. We certainly can face some of the same issues.

As for GLAAD's definition, I'd say my gender identity does not fit neatly into those two choices. And these pages are filled with stories of other people judging members to not be the gender they were assigned at birth when that side of them is revealed.

[Patience]

It's funny. I once posted a thread asking the forum if we were queer and a lot of people thought that the term had far too much baggage for comfort.

My personal first outing was during a Pride weekend and like de facto LGBTQ folk, CDers are usually either suffering in closets and dying to come out or being chastised for wanting to be who they are. We definitely benefit from any social advances LGBTQs enjoy, as well as the flak whether we feel we deserve it or not, so I'd say we're on the fringe of that group, at least. How deep varies from person to person.

[Natalie5004]

According to what I have read. Transvestite is for people that wear opposite sex clothes. Trans- means change and vestite is a Latin term for clothes. It has no sexual references.

Therefore I am a part time Transvestite. I do not desire to change my sex or alter my body, (other than pierced ears). I am not a woman trapped in a man's body.

I also understand that as straight men wearing womens clothes there are circles in the LGBQT (Letter of the month) that are not thrilled with us. Personally, I dress at home exclusively so far. So I am not part of the conversation.

Those of you that have read my posts in the past, here is some good news. My false eyelashes went on in about 30 seconds today. It is getting easier. As a side note to a side note, my wife call me at home and told me what time she was coming home from work. We both knew what that meant and why she did it. I thanked her.

- - - Updated - - -


Right from glaad?s website (https://www.glaad.org/transgender/transfaq)

? Transgender is a term used to describe people whose gender identity differs from the sex they were assigned at birth. Gender identity is a person's internal, personal sense of being a man or a woman (or boy or girl.) For some people, their gender identity does not fit neatly into those two choices. For transgender people, the sex they were assigned at birth and their own internal gender identity do not match.?

So with that said since you all identify firmly as males, your gender identity matches your birth gender..... you do not belong under the ?transgender? label. I?ve seen stuff that does include you but honestly if you read above you can see why this is not possible.

As for being a part of the LGBT...... unless your gay than again the answer would be no...... your a bunch of heterosexual dudes that like to dress up..... that?s it....and nothing to be ashamed about..

Megan. For me you are spot on.

[Robin-in-TX]

Everyone has to answer that for him or herself. To me, CD and transgender are separate things. CD's were born with a body that matches their soul, but they prefer to present as the opposite sex from time to time. Trans peoples' body and soul do not match. My parents gave me the body of a man to hold the God given soul of a woman. Nature makes lots of mistakes and that is one of them for me.

Robin

[Robertacd]

I am a 100% straight guy who likes to cross-dress and I have NO desire, whatsoever of being transgender.

Good luck with that, I said the same thing for over 40 years. In fact you can go back through this boards archives and probably find a post with me saying basically the same thing.

I was lying to myself most of all...



Roberta, I must respectfully disagree with that..... If most, if not all M to F CD'ers here who are like me and do not wish to transition to the opposite gender, then it would stand to reason that we don't identify as being transgender, or part of the LGBTQ community.

Where does it say that all transgender people desire to transition?



Now, for those of us who go out in public while dressed, if we were to be figured out by other people that we are, in fact, men in women's clothing, then yes someone may assume that we're gay or transgender...? But you know what they say about assuming. :D

LOL IF We are all nice to each other here, but to be honest I have yet to see pictures of any MtoF CD on this forum that fully passes, myself included. Yet I have been going out in public dressed almost daily for over a year and I can count the number of times I was called Sir instead of Ma'am on one hand.

Am I %99.999 passing? Am I fooling everyone?

Not a chance, but then I am not trying to fool anyone.

I am Transgender and people accept that.

[lingerieLiz]

I find it interesting that now that the LGBTQ have been recognized and protected CDs are not included. If I wear women's clothes full time, because I find those are closer to how I want to be treated and admired. As for sex, if I prefer women does that now make me a lesbian or just a straight man? It would have been much better if the court had said you can't fire someone for personal presentation or sexual conduct.

As a manager I had several people that I knew fit into the various letters. I never once rated them based on presentation or who they chose to be with. Basically I think that some of the letters got theirs and could less about those left behind.

[Kimberly A.]

Good luck with that, I said the same thing for over 40 years. In fact you can go back through this boards archives and probably find a post with me saying basically the same thing.

I was lying to myself most of all...

Roberta, I'm not lying to myself...? I'm comfortable being a man, most of the time, (meaning I'm in "male mode" most of the time and am comfortable with it) and comfortable temporarily being a woman when I get the chance and I do not now, nor have I ever had the desire to be transgender and I never will. I don't care WHAT anyone says, simply being a CD'er does NOT make a person trans.



Where does it say that all transgender people desire to transition?

Ok, I'm confused by this..... Don't ALL transgendered people desire to be the opposite gender than what they were born with?


LOL IF We are all nice to each other here, but to be honest I have yet to see pictures of any MtoF CD on this forum that fully passes, myself included. Yet I have been going out in public dressed almost daily for over a year and I can count the number of times I was called Sir instead of Ma'am on one hand.

Am I %99.999 passing? Am I fooling everyone?

Not a chance, but then I am not trying to fool anyone.

I am Transgender and people accept that.

Well, that's one difference between you and I..... See, I try to pass as a female when I go out and I have yet to be addressed as "sir" when I'm out dressed..... However, I do doubt that I'm fooling everyone who sees Kimberly. LOL

[lingerieLiz]

Everyone has to answer that for him or herself. To me, CD and transgender are separate things. CD's were born with a body that matches their soul, but they prefer to present as the opposite sex from time to time. Trans peoples' body and soul do not match. My parents gave me the body of a man to hold the God given soul of a woman. Nature makes lots of mistakes and that is one of them for me.

Robin

Are you saying that if I live as a woman I'm transgender, but if I wear women's clothes sometimes I'm a CD. even if most of the time I wear women's clothes?

[amandagurl2014]

The speaker in the opening post is wrong to exclude cd's. That want hold up in court.

[AllieSF]

This is always a topic that is debated by many on this site and elsewhere. However, that being said, the site's official definition includes crossdressers. If you want to argue that with the mods and admins to change it, have at it! You probably won't get too far. The umbrella term is used on this site and other reputable sites like Susan's Place (susans.org). It is used to try to avoid these senseless arguments. Plus, it is accepted by most medical organizations too. On this site anyways, if you walk like a duck and quack like one and look like one then you will be labeled one. Identify yourself as you wish, but do not expect others to see what you see through their own eyes. Have a happy day everyone!!

[Jean 103]

What you have run into is this we are better than you opinion that some have.

I have seen it in group many times. They feel CDs are in denial. That they tarnish the image.

The group I go to meets at a LGBT center. in this college town an hour north of me. I had heard that a new gay bar had opened up in town there. After the meeting I asked Trans woman running the meeting if she had heard of it. She snapped at me, "we don't go to bars!" Really, I didn't bother telling her I was asking for a friend who is a GAY MAN.

This center sends out announcements about meeting at some bar for a mixer, all the time.

[AngelaYVR]

I would say that technically the speaker was right. It all boils down to whether you actually are more than a crossdresser but have not wrapped your head around the idea yet. Are you a CD who goes out in public, interacts with others and for all intents and purposes lives a life as another gender? My opinion is that you are transgender. It is also my opinion that the term is grotesquely lacking but there we are.

[Pixie_94]

I'm not trans or any of that, so, no.

[franlee]

I'm not trans or any of that, so, no.

Me either!

[Helen_Highwater]

I spend a very small percentage of my time dressed for all the world to see. Like many others I'm constrained by family/social issues. I dress indoors as often as I can as presenting as we do is an intrinsic part of who I am. It shapes not just my bust line but also the person I am.

I see no reason why I should have less protection of the law for going about living my life as I see fit. I'm not breaking any laws by dressing in public so why shouldn't I have the protection of the law to enable me to do so safely?

Take a random selection of males, line them up and ask others to "Spot the gay". Many gay men, and women, are indistinguishable from anyone else if simply looked at. There will be a few who's demeanour will stand out, appear that little bit more femme. Hence it's they who are perhaps most at risk because of how they present. So how are we different?

What we share, where we have common ground is it the fact that there are those who view anyone who strays away from their idea of the binary gender stereotype as deserving of persecution. Freaks, aberrations of nature. So my view is yes we fall under the LGBTQ umbrella, it's just that the community has been slow to actively present it's case in the same way the Gay community has.

[sara66]

dido to pixie_94.
Sara

[SheriM]

I look at it this way. The LGBT movement really exists to bring awareness and acceptance and to stop the bias/hate against people that some feel do not conform to their norms. There is certainly a public negative connotation to being a crossdresser or we wouldn't hide it. So yes, in that respect, I do feel that crossdressers could be part of the LGBT community. At least, with more acceptance of transgenders, etc, crossdressing is becoming more accepted as well.

[Paulie Birmingham]

Nope, not any part of that

[Ressie]

I'm repeating myself again but we're all individuals and unique. Some of us aren't sure what we are yet. I have friends that started out as CDs and it turned out that they wanted to transition and now consider themselves TG. Some thought they were TG yet found that they didn't want to transition.

The fact that we all wear women's clothes puts us all into a set that includes fetishistic CDs and MTF TGs. We can call the set "biological men that like to wear women's clothes". BMTLTWWC!

[NancySue]

I agree with Kimberly. From my view, there are three kinds of cders....straight, bi and gay. The latter two clearly relate to LGBTQ...check out the definition of each acronym. I?m straight, enjoy dressing and though I have nothing against them, have absolutely no interest in being associated with the LGBTQ community, even though, I think society puts us in their arena.

[Star01]

I am one of those who realized late in life that my crossdressing is here to stay and I am still trying to figure out where I fit in. Nevertheless, I can pay claim to having a foot in the door of LGBTQ status but not because of my crossdressing. I have dabbled with the B in LGBTQ but I don't think of myself as part of the LGBTQ community. There are a lot of people who fit in that category but aren't involved in the movement and don't go to the parades and events. I guess one could say that I punched my ticket to the pride parade but lost it somewhere in my purse.

[GretchenM]

There are at least two concepts of gender at work in the world that provides a definition to gender and gender variance. One fundamental concept is the gender binary. Here gender is determined by sex - if male then you are normally masculine and if female then feminine. Transgender becomes some kind of reversal of some indefinite degree and therefore classified by artificial criteria based mostly on a biased view of differences while pretty much ignoring similarities. Unfortunately, reality doesn't follow this simplistic way of looking at gender which is actually one of the most complex parts of human behavior that there is. And the gender binary opens the door to the development of hierarchies that usually end up with males being dominant and females being subordinate and justifying it with made up reasons. The classic and exaggerated "Leave it to Beaver" world view.

The other concept is something along the lines of the gender mosaic where there is only variation between people and precise classification according to some immutable characteristic such as a person's sex simple does not exist. Sex does not determine gender or even have much to do with gender. Gender in a very large majority of people is a blend of traits and characteristics that mostly are found in people of either sex with only a few being more strongly expressed in one sex and not the other. Gender is produced by the constantly varying configurations and neural pathways in the brain with very little influence from sex other than to define reproductive behavior. Gender is based upon looking at the entirety of gender characteristics rather than cherry picking those that support an assumption that men and women are different in all respects because they have different sexes. They look different so they must be different. That is part of the neuraltrash thinking common in the gender binary. The evidence says otherwise. But after thousands of years thinking that way, erroneously, the gender binary idea is kind of fused to our thinking in spite of being false in most respects.

Gender variance in each of these concepts creates a chaotic and rapidly changing mishmash of thinking, most of which is inconsistent or even illogical and full of contradictions and exceptions. The gender mosaic and similar non-binary concepts solves this problem by basically taking the position that gender cannot be broken down into a well structured classification simply because it is too complex to create a classification. In other words, when a very large population of "normal" and "variant" people is examined what you find is, when attempting to classify them, a continuous spectrum that is even more gradual than the colors in a rainbow which tend to have fuzzy but definite boundaries that are a result of quantum jumps in the breakdown of light produced by electrons in atoms jumping from electron shell to shell. Color in a rainbow represent different energy levels that do have a natural reality. That does not seem to be naturally present in gender identity and expression. In short, with gender, we are simply all different when one looks at the total package of gender traits and characteristics rather than only looking at the aspects to define our differences.

So, in this view, it is all a blending. CDs occupy their own zone, but at the boundaries they blend into adjacent forms and none of it can sensibly be represented with a linear concept. It is multi-linear and multi-dimensional. You are wherever you are in the multidimensional continuum that is gender. Any attempt at classification of genders creates breaks in the continuum where there are no breaks. Are CDs transgender? In such a complex continuum, perhaps the real question is whether the term transgender actually makes sense anymore with the biological reality apparently being that we are all different and therefore we are all equal because we are all different?

[Robin-in-TX]

Are you saying that if I live as a woman I'm transgender, but if I wear women's clothes sometimes I'm a CD. even if most of the time I wear women's clothes?

No, I did not say that at all. Again, I'm speaking for me and my world view, it could be different to you.

Being trans does not have a thing to do with the clothes you wear. Being trans is a sense of self and not a form of dress. I am trans, my soul does not match the 46 chromosomes I was given by my parents. I should have received a female body. Even if I never put on an article of female clothing, I still see myself as female.

If a person feels that their body matches their sense of being, then they are not trans. If that person wants to wear the clothes of the other gender, it does not change their sense of being.

Clothes do not make one trans.

[jacques]

hello Michelle,
I would say that if we self-identify as LGBTQ+ then that is what we are!
And perhaps there is an argument that we should... Crossdressing is very much still a taboo; that is why most of us do it in private.
Some feminists think that M2F trans-people are not real women and should not use women's toilets &c. (the author of the "Harry Potter" books has caused a controversy about this in the UK recently); so hobby crossdressers may not get much support from that "community" yet.
There seems to increasing public acceptance of the LGBTQ+ "community" - so perhaps we should become part of it is we wish to end discrimination?
It is worth thinking about.
Stay healthy,
Luv, J

[Krisi]

"The speaker was a transfemine non-binary person from an Los Angeles LGBT organization."

Well I wouldn't have bothered to go. You're listening to a person with a pretty obvious agenda who is trying to promote his/her agenda, not trying to listen or accept anyone elses.

[Robertacd]

It pains me to read all the mental gymnastics people use to explain how even though they are exactly the same as the group of people they claim to not belong to.

They are not one of "those people"...

Threads like this reek of Transphobia and it makes sad that they are continually allowed here.

[Teresa]

Michelle,
So right we are discsussing the problems with labels , the speaker is only half right but then also half wrong .

Basically what drives the majority to dress is a level of dysphoria , I do wonder hand on heart any of us would wear women's clothes if we had a choice but we don't . Some may pass it off as an enjoyable pastime but there are other pastimes that don't have many of us scuttling off before we get caught .

The point I'm making is we all have levels of transness , Natalie , you got it partly wrong trans = to cross , vestite = clothes/garb , hence we get crossdresser .

So do we wish to come under the LGBTQ label or not ? I argued that I'm not gay but then the T label isn't suggesting the trans part is gay . So should we look at it as safety in numbers or are we being misrepresented , the speaker is suggesting division within our community , she has no right to do that because in doing so she is misrepresenting us .

So what's the alternative , do we have a strong enough presents to stand alone ? I'm sorry I think not , the divisions within our own community means only a small percentage will want or need representing because so many are still totally or partially in the closet . Those who are out and making their presence known may wish to bang the drum for everyone but the problem is not everyone wants that . Eventually a trans person possibly not necessarily fully transitioned may just want to get on with their own lives without needing to keep banging the drum for themselves or others .

Reine often talks about what happens to members after the forum , she suggests some have stopped but the ones who haven't enter that period of their lives when being trans is a normal way of life .

Looked at the situation in that way we are lucky to have the forum because it fills the need to be heard in a very succesful way , lets also not forget this forum is read by many people other than members, from deeply closeted CDers to wives/partners and possibly their famillies and possibly friends or work colleagues who need to learn more .

Personally , I keep beating the drum , I suffered for many years before I came to terms with what I am , if I can help one other with their suffering then it's been worth remaining a member . Do I feel I need or get support and help from the LGBTQ community , not really , I feel most of the noise they make is in support of the gay community which is wonderful , I feel the Trans label is added mostly for appeasement , the verdict is still open if they do good or not for us .

The bottom line is as an inidividual if you feel the LGBTQ banner helps you no one is going to stop you joining them , the problem is some of the community don't or won't try and understand the trans community so we get the comments made in the opening thread . I question is it worth taking on that battle as well ?

[Kimberly A.]

Well then Roberta, if that's your opinion then don't read threads like this..... However, I'm not homophobic or transphobic; I say live and let live. However, I don't identify with the LGBTQ community at all and if anyone has a problem with that, well, that's their problem.

- - - Updated - - -

I have something else to add...... I think that it's OK for straight guys, if we so choose to NOT identify as being transgender or part of the LGBTQ community. It's a matter of choice and while I know some here feel they have no choice but to be a CD'er, it IS a choice and simply a hobby for me and I can stop doing it anytime I choose..... But I choose not to stop. Lol

Some of y'all can argue that all you want, but that's my 2 cents.

[CarlaWestin]

If you Google ?what does the Q stand for in LGBTQ? you get the answer ?queer? or ?questioning?.

On that basis, it probably boils down to, do you think you are LGBTQ? - as the Q would seem to be fairly open to interpretation.

Quicksand!

[Genni]

I can't say if "we" are part of the LGBTQ community, but I am. The most apt description I could come up with for myself is "fem-leaning gender fluid." Physically I'm male, and sexually I'm straight, but I am somewhere on the transgender spectrum. My preferred pronouns are he/him or she/hers consistent with how I'm presenting. Transgender is not all-or-nothing. You get to decide what label, if any, fits you.

[CarlaWestin]

............ that they are continually allowed here.

Allowed? Transphobia?

[Asew]

I think this boils down to wide definitions versus narrow definitions (with a side of stereotypes to make it narrow). And these kind of definitions then boil down into being inclusionary or divisive. I think we should all prefer umbrella terms and being inclusive :)

[Stephanie47]

During their presentation, Drag was described as only for entertainment and not part of gender identity.
And then when later asked specifically about cross dressers inclusion in LGBTQ, their response was that CDs do it for sexual reasons and not part of their identity.

I can see where "drag" performances may be considered entertainment as drag is usually presented in an entertainment venue. That does not mean the person in drag and performing is not a transgender woman or transgender man. I think the general public thinks of drag as an "art form." I don't think one can gauged somebody's "gender identity" at a "drag" performance. Can you determine a person's sexual orientation just by looking at the person? No!

Crossdresser or crossdressing is no more than a word; a noun or adjective or verb. The word has nothing to do with a person's motivation to wear the clothes of the sex opposite of his or her birth sex. I'd like to see that person's credentials. I agree the person has an agenda to present which will accomplish nothing more than to muddy the waters for the general public. Would it be valid to paint transgender women as mere sexual creatures because there is transgender pornography? That person fails a basic course in philosophy.

Me? I have no idea why I do what I do. I can express how I feel when I don women's attire. But, I cannot tell you why I do it. Do I do it for sexual pleasure? No, not at all. Am I a transgender woman in denial? I do not believe so. I am totally fine functioning as a male in a male environment. But, that does not negate there are times I feel compelled to act in a different manner. What does it take to "flip the switch?"

A counselor I see for issues related to war induced PTSD is of the opinion there is some dna in everyone of the opposite sex. In some the opposite sex dna is greater than in others. I like her answer/opinion because it may be the answer as to where an individual falls on the continuum of a sexual being.

[Aunt Kelly]

Damn... Here we go again with the "labels" debate...

Labels and, indeed, the definition of any noun, are tools we use to communicate. They work as such by convention (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/convention), and only to the degree that a given definition is agreed upon.

If a CD'er wants to insist that he is not transgender, there's little harm. There is a convention that anyone who is "gender non-conforming" is properly included in the "transgender" group. If you don't feel that you derive any benefit from using that label on yourself, or if you are afraid that using that label might make "less of a man", feel free to avoid it.

Some observations I've made over the years:

A lot of crossdressers are "fetish" dressers. They almost invariably identify as "straight", sometimes stridently so.
Some crossdressers actually do suffer from gender dysphoria. If we exclude the fetish motivator, "I just like the way it makes me feel... more relaxed... less anxious..." is kind of a giveway.
Most crossdressers will deny that they suffer from gender dysphoria. I know that I did, for a long time.
Most self-identified crossdressers who are motivated to proactively come to terms their gender dysphoria are happier for it.



That last one is a tough leap to make. It is markedly counterintuitive, but transphobia and homophobia are common in the group who identify as "just a crossdresser". I'm not saying that most crossdressers are anything other than "just" that, or that most aren't heterosexual, but I've yet to see a meaningful study on that, and if this group (forum members) is any indication some are not, or won't be, given enough time.
:)

[josie_S]

I can't say if "we" are part of the LGBTQ community, but I am. The most apt description I could come up with for myself is "fem-leaning gender fluid." Physically I'm male, and sexually I'm straight, but I am somewhere on the transgender spectrum. My preferred pronouns are he/him or she/hers consistent with how I'm presenting. Transgender is not all-or-nothing. You get to decide what label, if any, fits you.

i think this is a great answer and overall applies to me as well

[BrendaPDX]

Always the Bridesmaid never the Bride.

[Meeshell]

Don’t you find it “odd” that a group, whose very label includes a synonym for “odd” would exclude a man who dresses as a woman for sexual reasons, or don’t they find that “odd”?

But, seriously, it seems to be the nature of any group to form around a common interest, and then proceed to internally start trying to define who has the “biggest dog in the fight” and establish a hierarchy of who most deserves the group’s attention. For instance, how many times have you seen the sentiment expressed, on this forum, along the lines of: Your issue is contemptible. If only you were (insert personal situation here) like me, you wouldn’t have this issue?

Do I consider myself LGBTQ? Never really thought much about it. Do I consider myself “trans”? Well… I don’t feel I would define myself as transgender, nor have I, or do I want to transition, but, I would have to say I am undeniably a transvestite at times.

Although I take umbrage with someone trying to define me by their own experience and observations, I really don’t care what you call me or think I am. I’ll just worry about what I think I am if that’s ok. If you don’t feel I’m a part of your group, then, fine, but, I have to agree with Sarah. Excluding a group of people, who may have a modicum of understanding, and maybe even more sympathy for LGBTQ concerns and challenges, by ostracizing them in a presentation aimed at encouraging tolerance, seems ridiculous and detrimental to the message.

LGBTQ? Trans? Odd? You decide. I would just like to be pretty once in a while.

Hugs
Meeshell

[Jenny22]

from the thread ...."And then when later asked specifically about cross dressers inclusion in LGBTQ, their response was that CDs do it for sexual reasons and not part of their identity. So No." Doing it for sexual reasons includes gays and lesbians.Personally, the "Trans umbrella" does cover CDers as well.

[Territx]

I know this is important to some people, but it really comes down to how you want to define the groups . . . and yourself; so maybe you fit in someone's definition and maybe you don't. For example, when you are dressed you may have tendencies that move you towards gay or bisexual interests that you do not have in drab mode. That might put you within one of the definitions -- so I just see it as being a very subjective issue.

For me, Carla has the best summary . . . and attitude about this issue.

[BobbiKay]

I consider myself to be under the LGBTQ umbrella, broadly defined. While I am married to a woman, I don't think that defines me -- "straight, but not narrow", perhaps. If my spouse were more accepting, I would present more feminine more often, both at home and out in the world.

I am surprised that an LGBT advocate would be kicking allies out of the tent.

[Robertacd]

Don’t you find it “odd” that a group, whose very label includes a synonym for “odd” would exclude a man who dresses as a woman for sexual reasons, or don’t they find that “odd”?


Makes perfect sense for people who dress just for sexual reasons to not be included. For them it's just another kink. The S&M crowd and countless other sexual kinks are not included.

[suzanne]

I think I agree that drag is more performance art than gender identity. But most of us in this forum aren't doing drag. We are expressing our inner femininity and it places us on the transgender continuum. Whereas many people tend to think in binary terms, ie either you are or you're not. Like a light switch. Gender identity is really a continuous variation, like a dimmer switch. Some of us have only a small desire for feminine presentation while in others the feeling is so strong that they feel it imperative to pursue SRS. And everything in between. In that woman's binary thinking, you only qualify as trans if you are in the latter group. Big mistake. Ignore her and live your life as you see fit and don't think too much about labels.

[Micki_Finn]

Right from glaad?s website (https://www.glaad.org/transgender/transfaq)

? Transgender is a term used to describe people whose gender identity differs from the sex they were assigned at birth. Gender identity is a person's internal, personal sense of being a man or a woman (or boy or girl.) For some people, their gender identity does not fit neatly into those two choices. For transgender people, the sex they were assigned at birth and their own internal gender identity do not match.?

So with that said since you all identify firmly as males, your gender identity matches your birth gender..... you do not belong under the ?transgender? label. I?ve seen stuff that does include you but honestly if you read above you can see why this is not possible.

As for being a part of the LGBT...... unless your gay than again the answer would be no...... your a bunch of heterosexual dudes that like to dress up..... that?s it....and nothing to be ashamed about..

What an ugly and bigoted statement. First off ?we all? don?t identify as males. There are MANY of us who identify differently. There is a whole section for trans people for God?s sake! Second, there are also gay and bisexual members here. And ?dudes that like to dress up? is dismissive, ignorant, and the closest thing to outright hate speech I?ve ever seen on this site.

[Patience]

[..]Therefore I am a part time Transvestite.[...]
I'm sorry, but that's a bit like saying someone's half dead or partly pregnant. ;)

You may dress part time, but you know there is no off switch. Might as well own it.

[Michelle Vinova]

Thanks for everyone for sharing your thoughts! I wish I could like or comment to everyone but such is the forum design.

It seems pretty split about whether or not CDs are included in LGBTQ, or even want to be.

I?ll leave it at this. To narrowly define Crossdressers as only doing it for sexual reasons is wrong. We are males who on some percentage of our lives dress like females and even wear wigs, forms, and take a female name. Maybe we are just a lower case t? Haha

Seriously though, we face similar self and societal acceptance. If we haven?t felt same hate & discrimination as most LGBT that?s likely because we hide it so well. We may be the last group still so deep in the closet?

If heterosexual, we?ve always been able to marry the one we love, but as so clearly shown in a pinned thread, getting SO acceptance & support is still a major hurdle for us.


Again- thanks everyone for chiming in!

[KimberlyJean]

I'll never understand why y'all are so intent on putting everyone into neat little boxes, I remember as a kid when playing in cardboard boxes I used to always end up tearing the box open.
I am more complicated than your label.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Whats the difference between a Crossdresser and a Transsexual ? ...................... Time.


That was my first real conversation with a longtime friend when I finally took my first steps out of the closet. At the time I found it an amusing anecdote. Now years later I find it a truism for a lot of people.
For myself I would have transitioned if not for some medical issues. Also there have been many here who have made the journey. At times I envy those who find peace with transition.
This is just my observation.

[Pumped]

Roberta, pretty hard to stuff all of us in one box. I can't say I am transgender. Certainly have no interest in going that far. CD'ers fall into all kinds of groups, straight, sexual play, to those that desire to transition.

I am in the middle somewhere. No interest in transitioning, enjoy the "play" side of CD'ing, but still wonder if I don't have some female genetics floating around inside. I don't feel I fit into the LGBT alphabet.

As for the speaker mentioned by the OP, I find it hard for them to rigidly exclude CD'ers as some definitely fit into the LGBT somewhere. Perhaps, in her mind, at that point they are gays or queer that crossdress.

[HelpMe,Rhonda]

I can't say if "we" are part of the LGBTQ community, but I am. The most apt description I could come up with for myself is "fem-leaning gender fluid." Physically I'm male, and sexually I'm straight, but I am somewhere on the transgender spectrum. My preferred pronouns are he/him or she/hers consistent with how I'm presenting. Transgender is not all-or-nothing. You get to decide what label, if any, fits you.

Yup.

If I was just a guy who was just wearing some clothes, why do I desire my hips to be wider and my chest to be chestier? Why does it warm the heart to have someone say something about how feminine a picture of mine seems to them?

[AngelaYVR]

What that discussion really underlined is that a lot of people still think crossdresser = fetishist. It is deeply ingrained. I think it is why I am presumed to be full time trans by people I talk to, because I am outside in public and not wearing miniskirts and hooker heels (an oft quoted trope on this site). I do have to admit I do not give a jot one way or the other, I have zero time for activism and identity politics. Free yourselves of these linguistic shackles!

[Samm]

I can't say if "we" are part of the LGBTQ community, but I am. The most apt description I could come up with for myself is "fem-leaning gender fluid." Physically I'm male, and sexually I'm straight, but I am somewhere on the transgender spectrum. My preferred pronouns are he/him or she/hers consistent with how I'm presenting. Transgender is not all-or-nothing. You get to decide what label, if any, fits you.

I stopped reading this thread after this post, and before my head explodes. Well said, Genni!

[Robin-in-TX]

I take back everything I wrote in my two posts except that what I wrote applies to me. I am trans and that makes me "T". However, while there are bright lines,such as, you are gay or bi or some other label, this isn't written in law. There is no clubhouse or secret handshake or special discounts. If you feel that you are outside of the main pack and relate to LGTBQ, then I guess you do. This is all about self-identity and you decide that for yourself.

Robin

[bobbi1957]

for me i dress as a woman and feel like a woman when dressed. my life would be torn apart if i did transition,so i wont , but i am transgender

[LucyLondon]

Why does society feel the need to pin a label on everyone?!

I dress in fem clothes cos I prefer them to drab, I'm married to a great wife who accepts that side of me at home. I have no need to be a full time girl, sexually when in guy mode I want women, when in girl mode I want men, does that make me bi? well yes it probably does, but do I feel the need to identify as anything other than me, well no I don't!

[Vale]

I think labels are best understood in the specific context in which they are used. Membership can change depending on the specific context. Let us take the context of the recent us Supreme Court ruling in LGBTQ as an example. In my reading, the majority opinion states that if you are fired for doing something that a person of a different sex would not be fired for, that is sex discrimination. So if a man gets fired for wearing skirts to work, skirts that would be acceptable on a women, that is discrimination. So in that context that person is a member of the protected LGBTQ class. In other contexts that person may not fit in the LGBTQ class. Membership is context sensitive.
As a second example, I only fit in the class football fan on Super Bowl Sunday. At other times I do not fit in that label. Regards, vale

[Star01]

At the end of the day the old saying you can call me anything as long as long as you don't call me late for dinner. Or in the case of crossdressers in the eyes of LGBTQ, you can not allow me under your umbrella and it doesn't mean much in the big picture. Some very good points were made that crossdressers should be included and I think we rightfully could be.

For me it's kind of a moot point because I pinched my ticket to that club in another way but there aren't any Pride parades up here in a one feed mill town and I'm not big on being any kind of activist for any causes.

[Robertacd]

Roberta, pretty hard to stuff all of us in one box.

Not a box, an inclusive umbrella that covers everyone from fetish crossdressers to post-op transexuals.

The only reason I can think of why so many here do not want to be included in this umbrella is transphobia.

[JuliaGirl]

What an ugly and bigoted statement. First off ?we all? don?t identify as males. There are MANY of us who identify differently. There is a whole section for trans people for God?s sake! Second, there are also gay and bisexual members here. And ?dudes that like to dress up? is dismissive, ignorant, and the closest thing to outright hate speech I?ve ever seen on this site.

Was coming here to say exactly the same thing, Micki.

The two parts that hurt the most were: "you all identify firmly as males" and "your a bunch of heterosexual dudes that like to dress up". Who said that was me? Or anyone on this forum? How remarkably callous, dismissive, and assumptive are those two statements? Wow, I just had to shake my head in amazement and sadness. And you wonder why some CDers like me hide in a closet? Because of statements like that meant to shame me. Guilt me. Dismiss me. Attitudes just like those, or the tropes that it's nothing more than a sexual fetish thing, or I must be secretly gay.

Megan ... Not sure why the falling back to definitions that clearly do not account for a wide spectrum of emotional and physiological feelings. I identify in so many ways I can't put myself into a simple silo. I am "straight" I guess, but "bi-curious" at other times. I dress for so many reasons at different times and depending on my mood ... to feel pretty, relaxed, calm, to express a feminine side of me, and sometimes for (self) sexual pleasure too. Dysphoria, who knows? It varies as well; for example, I do not want to be a woman full time, but want to feminine sometimes. So what does that make me?

A complex dynamic human being with emotions that does not fit into any one definition, especially that one. I do NOT identify as fully male, despite my sex and outward appearance. Julia is inside me as sure as I breathe. I am heterosexual? Physically, yes, to date, but mentally and as my bi-curious nature grows? Who knows? But I sure as hell am not a dude that likes to dress up. To call me, or anyone else that without considering the person's uniqueness, is horribly offensive and emotionally in really poor taste. That hurt, hun.

[Lily88]

I?ve got no desire to transition but also believe LGBTQ is all about challenging gender norms and binary definitions so very happy to identify as trans or queer

[Miel GG]

From a GG's POV...

In view of social condemnation (which is the first level of discrimination), I am puzzled by the repeated fight between minorities...Instead of searching the lowest common denominator indispensable to achieve a wide grouping !

I believe that the LGBT+ label is already inclusive...But maybe you can all (CDs and Trans') agree to federate under MOGII (Marginalized Orientations, Gender Identities and Intersex) or GRSM (Gender, Romantic and Sexual Minorities) flags wich are more inclusive : no label because everyone is included (CD, genderfluid, genderqueer, non-binary...to trans'). :)

:winkp: Just for fun I will add that some historians said that DRAG was used to mean petticoat... Finally don't all MtF love petticoat ?! ;)

[Sometimes Steffi]

They are correct on Drag not being gender identity, though there are gender variant people who do drag. As far as the crossdresser thing, it's a semantics issue. Many within the LGBT community will say that if you're NOT doing it for sexual pleasure, that makes you trans. Just because you don't want to transition doesn't make you not trans. There are LOTS of trans folks who have no desire to modify their bodies surgically or hormonally.

So it's more that the LGBTQ community uses a wider definition of trans, and a narrower definition of ?crossdresser?. I've mentioned this a few times on these forums.


If drag queens are only into dressing as a job, are probably not T, unless they're LGBT when not "working".



So with that said since you all identify firmly as males, your gender identity matches your birth gender..... you do not belong under the “transgender” label. I’ve seen stuff that does include you but honestly if you read above you can see why this is not possible.

Who said that we all firmly [no pun intended] identify as males Some days I'm sot so sure.

Some assorted responses without quoting.

That's the problem with labels; they're not specific enough. Remember, T stands for Transgender, not transexual.

As for passing. I've seen many GGs who don't pass as women as well as I do.

I would probably call myself bigender or gender fluid. Am I CD or T.

Don't forget that you can be a non-op T.

Some people believe that the difference between a crossdresser and a transwoman is 2 years. So, at worst, we're only 2 years from T.

I happen to personally know a lot of Ts who fit that cliche. Maybe they knew that they were T at the when I met them as a CD, but they had me fooled; I thought that they were "just a CD".

Lastly, if you are assaulted on the street while dressed, do you or they care whether you're CD or T? If the person assaulted you thought you were T, that could be a hate crime. If that person thought you were a CD, no hate crime?

[Lydianne]

As for passing. I've seen many GGs who don't pass as women as well as I do.

I think we need to refrain from the idea of applying the notion of passability to genetic females. It's like division-by-zero, and it probably loses us support... lest another genetic female challenges us to give birth, for example.

We also need not to confuse attractiveness with passability. Not being attracted to a genetic female is totally fine, but that is a different assessment than passability. Unless most of us pass with real hair, real breasts, no makeup, independently of clothing, without clothing, etc, we probably shouldn't go there.


( There are plenty of women to whom I am not attracted, with whom I would trade places in an instant ).

- L.

[Pumped]

Not a box, an inclusive umbrella that covers everyone from fetish crossdressers to post-op transexuals.

The only reason I can think of why so many here do not want to be included in this umbrella is transphobia.

Could be. Personally, I don't care where a person fits in any of these labels. I joke with friends that I hate everyone equally until they prove themselves. I have gay friends that I enjoy being with. I can't say I know any trans people, but I would give them the same chance I give anyone. If you are a decent trustworthy worthy person you are ok with me. Nothing else really matters.

[Robertacd]

We also need not to confuse attractiveness with passability... we probably shouldn't go there.

- L.

Exactly!

You may be prettier than some GG's but all GG's are still more feminine than any of us GM's will ever be.

[Jodie_Lynn]

My employer offered an optional seminar to raise awareness about LGBTQ. Discussion on gender, sex, pronouns, challenges, etc.

The speaker was a transfemine non-binary person from an Los Angeles LGBT organization.

This individual (they) clearly thought of Crossdressers as excluded from LGBTQ.

During their presentation, Drag was described as only for entertainment and not part of gender identity.

And then when later asked specifically about cross dressers inclusion in LGBTQ, their response was that CDs do it for sexual reasons and not part of their identity. So No.

I know some of you will say who cares about whether or not we?re in the LGBTQ community. And here we go again with the labels. ..But I was pretty surprised by the explicit exclusion. Particularly when gender fluidity was part of the conversation.

What do you think? Are we in or out and why?


Forgive me for quoting your entire post, but there are several things I wished to address in it.

During their presentation, Drag was described as only for entertainment and not part of gender identity.

This is true. Look at Benny Hill, or the cast of Monty Python. They often dressed in drag, for a role in their shows. Or take the movie "To Wong Foo..." Swazye, Snipes and Leguizamo dressed in drag, for a role. Or imagine a costume party where some guy shows up in a cheerleader outfit, unshaven, with beachballs in a bra. Is he a crossdresser, or doing drag? Would they be classed as crossdressers? Would ANYone point to Wesley Snipes and say "Hey, look! It's the crossdresser!"?

And then when later asked specifically about cross dressers inclusion in LGBTQ, their response was that CDs do it for sexual reasons and not part of their identity. So No.

I don't agree that the ONLY reason for crossdressing is sexual, there are a multitude of reasons, but sexual fulfillment IS a part of it, for many.

Is crossdressing part of your identity? When going for a job interview, do you agonize over going as "male self" or "female self"?

Lets suppose that you are at work, and for whatever reason, a CD that you know is there, en femme. Would you go and greet them? Duck away, or pretend not to know them? Why, or why not?

Ever been turned down for a job, or a loan, or an apartment, because of how you presented? Ever freaked out, while driving en femme, because you came to a police checkpoint? Ever have a panic attack at work, because you missed a speck of nail varnish?

Crossdressers, and I am NOT degrading them or negging them, don't live the life. They ( and this is a total generalization based on years of reading posts here! ), don a disguise. They take clandestine trips out. At 3 in the morning. On a deserted road, take a selfie, and tell how bold they were. They might meet with a group of like minded people, showing up at the venue, in drab, changing into their glam self, and changing back on leaving.

They tend to have very specific preferences for garments. "I ONLY wear Vanity Fair panties, in peach!", "I love how open bottom girdles make me feel soooo femme!", or, "I love to flounce and swish around in my ultra-feminine 1950's skirts and petticoats!" "I never wear jeans or slacks in girl mode!" Again, I'm not knocking CD's; you do you and more power to you!

BUT, CD's can shed that disguise at a moments notice, and present as "normal" to the rest of the world. And let's face reality, a lot of CD's (not all, and I don't have stats, so don't ask! ) DO get an emotional or sexual thrill from dress up.

So, in my opinion, if you feel that crossdressers belong on the LGBTQ+ spectrum, then builders of model airplanes should be on the aeronautical engineering board. Or that by saying "Hey, I sat next to a POC on the bus, so that proves I'm all about equality!", means you support BLM.

[DianeT]

I personally couldn't care less about labels. Being called a heterosexual dude who likes to dress is fine with me, transgender is fine with me, everything goes as these tags are just revealing how the beholder is seeing or trying to understand you, and not what you are.
The need for a brand name for a group takes a meaning when this group has battles to fight (e.g. for equal rights). If you want to marshall its members, make them realize the wrongs they endure, you need a team name, an identity. If LGBTQ people and transvestites consider they are all being treated unfairly and consider themselves sisters and brothers in arm, maybe they can add a letter to that long acronym, or consider the + does it, and like a member dear to my heart said in her post, try to find what unites them and will make them stronger together rather than spending time arguing about what divides them.

[Marianne S]

First, in the interest of mutual understanding, I want to point out how often misunderstandings happen on message boards like this one. I'm referring to Megan's post about GLAAD's supercilious dismissal of anyone who doesn't fit their definition of "transgender" as "a bunch of heterosexual dudes that like to dress up," Was Megan really echoing the same contempt of crossdressers along with that crowd? Or was she drawing attention to the same disgust I feel at such exclusionary hypocrisy from some outfit like GLAAD? I hope she'll return to clarify that. Please be careful how we interpret another's words, and try to give them the benefit of the doubt!--even "doubts" we may not think of at first blush, as I confess I didn't myself. More on that crowd later.


Not a box, an inclusive umbrella that covers everyone from fetish crossdressers to post-op transexuals.

The only reason I can think of why so many here do not want to be included in this umbrella is transphobia.

Thank you for this post, Roberta, which is a good starting point for discussion. I certainly agree with your concept of "T" as an umbrella, in which we all ought in principle to be included. What I have a problem with is that second statement.

Although some people "hate labels," I think labels are generally useful anyway. The real value of labels is that people are simply different from one another and want to be understood for "who they really are" and "what they're really like." "Different" doesn't imply "better" or "worse"; just "different" in ways that others often don't understand. It reminds me of a Web site somewhere about an entirely different topic--Myers-Briggs personality classifications--accompanied by a publication called Please Understand Me. The point of course is that people don't always "understand" others who for various reasons think, feel, or act differently from themselves, unless they're educated about it.

So under this T "umbrella" there's a burgeoning list of subcategories like "LGBTTTQQIAA" and whatnot, which can be found (among other places) on a Web site with the delightful name of "ok2Bme.ca," (ok2bme.ca), a philosophy I thoroughly sympathize with. This ever-growing alphabetical sea serpent is not only compendious, but cumbersome besides, so no wonder people shorten it to "LGBT+," or sometimes "LBGTQ+." Still, I think the reason for its growth is not so much that anyone doesn't want to be seen as "like those other people" we get confused with," more that they want their own individuality to be understood.

Sometimes this leads to needless objections by hypersensitive people, such as some who insist "I am not a 'transsexual.' I am simply a woman now." Or those who want us to know that "in our culture, which is different from yours, when somebody has both a feminine and a masculine soul in the same body, we call it 'Two-Spirit.'" Point acknowledged, but from a gender perspective it's still a "distinction without a difference," and when we bring "different cultures" into the mix as well, we only multiply the existing number of labels.

Despite all this, there is a reason why "B" is the third letter in "LGBT," and I'm sure it's not because "bisexual" people are "looking down" on anyone who's purely gay or lesbian. It's just because they want to be understood for themselves, that they're different from others, that they swing both ways and son't belong as "straight" or[//b] gay.

It all reminds me of that ancient but classic comic song a group called the Southlanders did a lifetime ago, back in 1958 when so much music was just plain lighthearted fun: [b]"I Am A Mole" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAzQ7Pn0Bbc):


I'm not a Bat or a Rat or a Cat
I'm not a Gnu or a Kangaroo
I'm not a Goose or a Moose on the loose
I am a Mole, and I live in a Hole!

It's appropriate for some of us who crossdress. Even if we don't live in a "hole," we can be "deeply buried" in the closet!

So with apologies, that's where I don't believe "transphobia" is the reason why some people may not want to be included under an umbrella titled "transgender," which, if it's taken to mean their gender identity is primarily female, does not properly describe them.

It's also a practical matter of how we're understood by others--especially those we treasure the most: our wives, partners and girlfriends. We wouldn't want them to fear that we're gay and might cheat on them or worse, leave them for another man. Just as important, we wouldn't want them to live in groundless fear that the "man" they loved and married is going to disappear forever and abandon them by morphing into a woman.

If your mileage is different, if crossdressing led you to understand that you are truly transgender, that's fine. But the point I'm making above all is that I believe most of us who crossdress, for whatever reason, do sympathize with and support those who are truly "transgender" (whatever exactly that means) and struggle with it, since we've struggled with related issues ourselves. The bogeyman of "transphobia" is only a "threat" as far as transsexualism leads uneducated members of society to misunderstand the rest of us who crossdress, which frankly doesn't bother me one bit.

What DOES bother me is the lack of reciprocity. How some members--not all--of the "trans" community "look down" on us as "mere" crossdressers, when we don't look down on them! The universe of gender is a horizontal spectrum, not a vertical "hierarchy" where some are "superior" to others. If some people are "further along" that spectrum toward the feminine side, that's fine, but it doesn't make anyone "better" or "worse" than anyone else--any more than men are "better than" women, or vice versa. The sexes are just different, that's all, and we're both necessary to the world. It's about as stupid as asking "Is a bolt 'better than' a nut?" If we're ever going to put anything together and build anything worthwhile, we're going to need both bolts and nuts to join them. Otherwise the whole thing is going to fall apart, and we're left with nothing.

Unfortunately that is not the attitude of some people in the community, and I sometimes wonder how this relates to Heinlein's depiction of humanity in Stranger in a Strange Land. His hero, raised on Mars and previously unacquainted with Earth, "never laughed" before--until he saw monkeys in a human zoo. How one monkey, bullied and deprived of his banana by a bigger monkey, immediately reacted by picking on a smaller monkey and taking his anger out by bullying him too. For the first time, the hero laughed until he couldn't stop, at the comedy, the tragedy, and the absurdity of it all.

How many male-to-female transsexuals have forgotten how they and their sisters were rejected, despised, and looked down on with contempt by a gang of females calling themselves "radical feminists," or "womyn," to distance themselves from any dreaded suggestion of "men" in the proper spelling? It didn't matter that the MtoFs in question were just as much "women" in soul and spirit as the genetic females who were shrieking about their so-called "oppression." It didn't matter that transsexuals were battling far greater difficulties of their own., worse than any "cisgender" person, male or female. It didn't matter if transsexuals were entirely in sympathy with the political goals of these "womyn." It was oh, no, you were 'born male,' so you 'enjoyed privilege'"=the biggest load of garbage I ever heard, about some myth of so-called "male privilege"--"so you can't come to our 'womyn's' music concerts, because they're for 'womyn born womyn' only, and because you were 'born male,' you're not 'one of us."

What a load of snotty, "superior," objectionable females! "Eww, you can't be a member of our club, because you "don't belong"! They're like a gang of immature, cliquey high-school girls playing their wretched "exclusion" games on other girls. Isn't it time they grew up?

Yet we find exactly the same attitude among some other "girls"--mind you, I'm not saying "all," just some---who, being "transgender," are pulling the same snotty, contemptuous attitude on crossdressers at large, who, because they're not truly "transgender," are in some sense "not as worthy as us" and "don't belong in our club." Heaven knows what these garbage attitudes are based on: some sniveling idea that "our struggles are greater than your pitiful little struggles," or some assumption of female privilege: that "you're not as good as us because you're not as fully female as we are!"

At any rate it's disgustingly objectionable, and it's exactly what Micki and JuliaGirl spoke of when Julia quoted that contemptuous line about "a bunch of heterosexual dudes,,," I've heard this crap myself. When I lived in Massachusetts I was a member of the Tiffany Club for crossdressers, though some members were fully transgender. Yet on the Web back then I've heard a snotty bunch, who ought to have known better, dismissing the group as "just a men's club."

The same attitude is present anong "persons" like the "non-binary" one who gave the lecture Michelle described in her original post. As somebody remarked, he, she, or it "has an agenda"--and it is not one of "inclusion." All this nonsense about "inclusion" is nothing but hypocritical crap--as is all this petty nonsense about pronouns as well. It's nothing but an excuse to pick on others and create divisiveness. Just as it's ironic that some transsexuals dismissed by "womyn" should show the same dismissal to "mere" crossdressers, I find it ironic that a person calling itself "non-binary" cannot stretch its understanding far enough to encompass other and finer distinctions among humans. What does "non-binary" mean anyway? Only that we don't have to belong wholly to one of two poles--"male" and "female"--and there's whole spectrum of possibilities in between. Some are feminine in nature despite the sex they were born in, and want to transition entirely. Some just need to express their female side socially, much of the time. And some of us just need to "dip our toes in the water" of femininity, whatever our reason, "sexual" or otherwise. Some swing between the two, while other just can't make up their minds. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in [his, her, or its] philosophy!

The same goes for any attempted definition of "transgender" such as the one Megan quoted here, by GLAAD or any other organizaion. Who gives a damn what they think? They're only about gay and lesbian stuff anyway, with an agenda of their own. As important as that may be, what they hell do they know about gender issues, which are entirely different? But to be charitable, maybe they didn't even think about us! Nobody has to buy their definition of what "transgender" means.

We're surrounded by a bunch of wretched "clubs," and some of them want to exclude us. If they do, well, screw them! Groucho Marx famously said that "I refuse to join any club that would accept me as a member." But that was a joke of course, and why would the rest of us want to join a club that wouldn't accept us as a member? If it won't, it's full of rotten snobs anyway, so who wants to socialize with them, when we've got better things to do with our friends and with those who love us?

Yes, we do belong under the "umbrella," whether it's titled "transgender" or something else. If we're "mere" crossdressers, we have the right to create our own "umbrella" definition of what it all means. I know that alphabetical sea serpent is getting a bit long already when "LGBT" was extended to include "Q," meaning those who are "Queer," or better still, "Questioning" their sexuality or gender identity. If those Qs can get themselves added in spite of its length, there's still room for us to plant a firm stake in the ground at the end of it with a big X for us CROSS-dressers.

How does "LGBTQX" sound? We won't get heard if we don't SHOUT! Though I'm not gay myself, I've never forgotten that delicious quote from a man named Robertson Davies, who famously groused that "The love that 'dare not speak its name"--itself a quote from Lord Alfred Douglas--"has become the love that won't shut up!" No doubt the drumbeat of insistence on gay acceptance ticked Mister Davies off a bit, but "marketing" oneself relentlessly is the only way anyone retains recognition in an always competitive world. If that other lot thinks we're not "part of them," the least we can do is push for "LBTGQX" as a legitimate title that we belong under that "umbrella," no matter what the umbrella itself may be called.

[Tracy Irving]

The only reason I can think of why so many here do not want to be included in this umbrella is transphobia.

Except that there is this other reason...


Makes perfect sense for people who dress just for sexual reasons to not be included.

and a whole bunch more that I can come up with without batting an eyelash. Additionally, there are some great comments earlier in this thread.

I made my own umbrella. It is a happiness umbrella and all are welcome. It is for everyone who has found their own happiness as well as those still searching.

[DianeT]

What a load of snotty, "superior," objectionable females! "Eww, you can't be a member of our club, because you "don't belong"!
I can tell you obviously suffered from some attitudes, but you are heading to one more rant against feminists (no short supplies of that in these forums) and denying of male privilege (like most males at birth you enjoyed it so you couldn't see it).



Yet on the Web back then I've heard a snotty bunch, who ought to have known better, dismissing the group as "just a men's club."
So they're calling you names :) Why do you even care?

[Marianne S]

Male "privilege"? There is no "male privilege" to speak of. The whole concept is nonsense, a mere invention, pure duckspeak that unthinking persons keep parroting. A "privilege" is a special advantage conferred on someone by people, by society in general, that less "privileged" persons don't have. The main advantages men have are what Nature, not "people," conferred on them. If women are jealous of that, they should blame Nature, not "men" or "society," and stop abusing the meanings of words like "privilege."

When the Titanic went down, people didn't call for "MEN and children first," did they? That's one example of the real meaning of a "privilege." People who buy this stuff about "male privilege" should open their eyes to some reasoned discourse based on facts. Like Warren Farrell's classic "The Myth of Male Power," or Jack Kammer's "If Men Have All the Power, How Come Women Make the Rules?"--a highly readable book.

[DianeT]

A "privilege" is a special advantage conferred on someone by people, by society in general, that less "privileged" persons don't have.
You take the "male privilege" term literally, when it is just another name for discrimination against women. It is a constant that persons who don't suffer certain discriminations (males here) deny that they exist for others (women here). A young boy taking for granted and normal that he can keep watching TV on the couch while his sister has been called to help setting the table will typically deny any male privilege once grown up, despite the abundance of such examples in ordinary life.
Anyway it's an old debate and I don't expect to convince you.

-- EDIT --
As for the male power "myth", anybody can write books cherry-picking facts to demonstrate this or that, but the numbers are stubborn :
https://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/leadership-and-political-participation/facts-and-figures
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_representation_on_corporate_boards_of_direc tors
So much for a myth.

[ShelbyDawn]

Oh, my this thread has taken some interesting turns since I last looked at it. I am glad it has stayed civil.

As to the question Are "WE" LGBTQ? I'm not sure it can even be answered. "WE" are as diverse as the people the acronym represents. For the thousands of us in this forum, there are that many reasons times two why we do what we do, we are fetish dressers, transgender men and women, purists(only full attempts to pass are good enough for me) and dedicated MIAD's, we are casual under dressers, drag enthusiasts and a million more variations of what we do. Do we all fit under the LGBTQ umbrella, no. Do many of us, perhaps even the great majority, I would say yes but that is just my opinion. Should we, as a collective, be accepted, I honestly do not know.

What I do know is that you as an individual have every right to claim your spot if you want it. For me, I have had experiences that indicate a more than passing interest in more than one letter in the rainbow, to the case in point, in the famous 'pink pill blue pill' threads, I am decidedly in the pink pill camp, unfortunately my reality will never support that choice, If I cold only be 18 again, LOL.
Does my being a forever frustrated trans woman exclude me since I will never start down that path or is it enough to just have the desire? Again, I don't know.

[StephanieCLT]

In disclosure, I haven't read through the 86 responses to date, but I had to respond to the comment that "CDs do it for sexual reasons and not part of their identity."

In my opinion, that is a na?ve, and disappointing for in the LGBTQ world, comment. There are many reasons why we crossdress. Sexual reasons is certainly one for many people, but to make that a general comment lumping all CDs into that category is unbelievably immature.

[manemami]

What I think in my opinion LGBTQ Community is a umbrella which covers people who want to express their inner side freely. We crossdressers need to express our feelings through our clothes.

[Maid_Marion]

You may want to adopt the label to fight job discrimination based on the latest Supreme Court ruling.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Male "privilege"? There is no "male privilege" to speak of. The whole concept is nonsense, a mere invention, pure duckspeak that unthinking persons keep parroting. A "privilege" is a special advantage conferred on someone by people, by society in general, that less "privileged" persons don't have. The main advantages men have are what Nature, not "people," conferred on them. If women are jealous of that, they should blame Nature, not "men" or "society," and stop abusing the meanings of words like "privilege."

When the Titanic went down, people didn't call for "MEN and children first," did they? That's one example of the real meaning of a "privilege." People who buy this stuff about "male privilege" should open their eyes to some reasoned discourse based on facts. Like Warren Farrell's classic "The Myth of Male Power," or Jack Kammer's "If Men Have All the Power, How Come Women Make the Rules?"--a highly readable book.

Marianne

I believe you misunderstand the concept of "privilege" and it's conjunction with a noun
Privilege - is a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group
Noun - a word used to identify any of a class of people, places, or things.

Put them together as in "male privilege" "white privilege" "gender privilege" or "chef's privilege" and you DO have a meaningful phrase.

Take Chef's privilege as an example if Gordon Ramsey walked into your kitchen and said "I'm going to cook you the best meal ever , you would confer him the privilege of using the most expensive ingredients to cook for you, whereas if a McDonalds 'chef' offered to cook, you would not let him near your truffles or expensive wine.

The richness of language is that it is robust and changeable to fit the needs of the moment to help people discuss things and to communicate (and yes, it does not mean every one agrees on what they are discussing)

[MaryAnn1963]

" comment that "CDs do it for sexual reasons and not part of their identity."....

sorry, but I'm not sure that I would want to be connected with a movement as narrow minded as that. This certainly IS part of my identity!!! Currently it seems to be the GREATER part of it. if they were as understanding as they say they are, they would know more about us.

[Peggie Lee]

The LGB part is about sexual preference and TQAI are about identities including non binary also call gender Queer these are about how you like to express yourself.

[April Rose]

I don't really care where I stand within the spectrum of LGBTQIA. I stand in solidarity with them and in gratitude to them for the courage and hard work that has liberated so many people, and made America a better, freer society. The recent supreme court decision is just the latest hard won victory for under represented people.

United we stand, divided we fall.

[TheHiddenMe]

One word: Yes.

[HelpMe,Rhonda]

We CDers may not be to the speaker in the OP or to some of the trans community but put on your prettiest outfit and wig and go out and ask the general public what they think and I think there won't be any hair splitting.

[Cdsissymtl]

In my case, I?m bi. The CD part it?s more of a sexual aid, a fetish to look better when meeting a guy.
I do understand that for some of you, it means so much more.
Here in Montreal, the LGBTQ has an extra + at the end (LGBTQ+) to include the rest.

[HelpMe,Rhonda]

I'my happy to be a +

[DianaPrince]

I think we are.

[MissAlexisRae]

I think it's completely dependent on the individual, which is why CDs are not usually included in LGBTQ+. For straight-identifying men who identify as men and nothing more, and wear "women's" clothing (IMHO clothes are clothes), then I'd say those people are not LGBTQ+, but that's only my opinion. Myself, I don't identify as 100% male or 100% female, so I'm technically transgender, and part of the whole alphabet of options. There are members of the community, usually lesbians but not always, that think trans people shouldn't be included at all.

The gatekeepers of the LGBTQ+ community will let this debate rage for whatever reason. It's been happening since Stonewall, so I don't see it changing any time soon. Identify how you want and screw anyone else that says otherwise.

[Cdsissymtl]

We?re the ?extra?. The icing on the cake!

[Brandi17]

I don't think it will matter one way or another, because if an employer tries to fire anyone for cross dressing at this point I am pretty sure they would get fined. They would have a heck of a time proving your not Transgender or why they should be allowed to fire someone for how they choose to dress (unless there is a dress code, then maybe they have a case if you do it at work).

[mbmeen12]

What I think in my opinion LGBTQ Community is a umbrella which covers people who want to express their inner side freely. We crossdressers need to express our feelings through our clothes.

Well said!

[Vicky_Scot]

The speaker should be banned from taking these seminars as they are clueless coming out with nonsense like that.

We are indeed part of the trans community. X x x

[Susan_onmydayoff]

Hi all,

Heres my thoughts, I definitely think that the lecturer in the OP is wrong to say that CD-ing is a fetish or sexual thing?
I see it all as a spectrum.

Imagine if u can, a long line that starts deep, dark blue at one end and fades to a kinda lilac in the middle before turning shocking pink at the other end.
At one end, in blue, we have the totally masculine, mans-man (the for real mans-man), for him its totally binary, I?m a man and I do man stuff and there is no question, about it and the idea of wearing anything female would be a total mystery. At the other end is the person who has known ever since (s)he was old enough to understand the difference between boys and girls, that something was different about them.

For that person, there is a journey to understanding, acceptance and in some cases, action?

So I think that all of us who dont do the totally binary thing are perhaps positioned somehwere along that line and I think that where we are on that line can alter? (Like when the pink fog hits?), some accept it indulge it and try to live and engage with it, some may reject it, purge and pretend it isnt there? Some may be troubled, guilty, ashamed of it and hope that with the love of a (new or) good woman that itll go away but most of us already know the outcome? Others may have a different view on it? Or for some, transition is the only outcome that fits for them? For others, maybe a different outcome but whatever that outcome may be, its always going to be somewhere along that blue/pink line?

I sometimes think that many other factors can sometimes cloud the issue? Such as what would my SO/wife/friends/family think? What about work/career? What about loads of other stuff? And thats fine because only you know how your life works and what will work for you?

When I started to look at it this way, it kinda helped me get a handle on it, if it helps someone else, jobs a good-un! 😉

Just my thoughts?

Im gonna go do something very manly in the garage now, I do hope I dont get oil on my pretty dress?

Stay safe, have fun

TTFN & Mwah!
Susan xx

[Stephanie47]

You may want to adopt the label to fight job discrimination based on the latest Supreme Court ruling.

This statement is not so far fetched as one would think. I have not read the court ruling, i.e., in its entirety. The media has centered the discussion concerning the case around gays and lesbians and transgender men and women. If one is adopt the idea cross dressers go what they do for sexual pleasure there may be a tough fight ahead. Washington State law since 2006 includes cross dressers under the umbrella of transgender men and transgender women. I have not read any cases in Washington State where an issue of a cross dresser suffering discrimination has arisen. There had been issues of transgender women under employment actions, but usually from the general public. The cases that come to mind are usually male transitioning to female at the elementary school grades. In states where there has been no protection for gays and lesbians and transgender men and transgender women there may be disagreements as to the scope of the law if the notion is adopted cross dressers dress for sexual pleasure and are no among the transgender community.

[DianneM]

Hi All
i feel that the term LGBTQI has two parts, LGB dealing with sexuality and TQI addressing gender and self expression. The analogy I think of LGB is who you look at through the window while TQI is who you look at in the mirror. I am part of the LGBTQI community not because of my sexuality but because of the way I like to express the way I feel. But doing this calls into question ones sexuality which more often than not is not part of the discussion. As with those that have come out to their partners, typically one of the first questions is 'Are you gay?'. Much of the early struggle for acceptance was carried by the LGB community and they have laid the foundation for acceptance for LGB's. As time has moved on more of the "undesirables" have been attached to an already fringe group of "deviants".
We are now LGBTQI+ , a community so varied that a single moniker can seem too small to comfortable cover everyone as some may still not want to be associated with others.
Disclaimer. The use of some terms was not intended to offend but highlight the way the general populous viewed people who were not vanilla.

Love and be Safe.
Dianne

[Teresa]

DianneM,
I'm glad you added the disclaimer but I'm still very disappointed you should use such words , I can only speak from the TG perspective but it truth I've found those words really don't ring true in the RW , if that is the true feelings of people to the LGBTQ community then maybe I don't want to be part of it .

[Jodie_Lynn]

@Teresa, it isn't the mainstream view, and I was also a little put off by some of @DianneM's word choices.

Disclaimer or not, leave the negative word baggage to the muggles.

My 2 centavos, YMMV

[Michelle Vinova]

Hey Everyone,

Thanks again for the thread discussion. Good and different perspectives added.

To close the loop on the OP. I was able to get the speakers contact information and emailed them to let them know about the issue.

They graciously heard the feedback and took full responsibility for the error....even admitted to not liking their own, outdated response at the time it was said. We?ve gained an ally.

[josie_S]

that's great Michelle! good for you :)

[candice.aihara]

Identity is much more than the clothes you wear. So, from the very narrow context of 'wearing clothes typically tailored for the opposite sex', my opinion is: Are crossdressers part of the LGBTQ community? No. Are there members in the LGBTQ community who crossdress? Yes.

[Marianne S]

I definitely think that the lecturer in the OP is wrong to say that CD-ing is a fetish or sexual thing?
I see it all as a spectrum.

[...]


I thoroughly agreed with your post, Susan. Lots of good details in there too. And it's good to hear from Michelle that the lecturer in question has changed her mind.

I only wanted to add that it's not even possible to draw a hard-and-fast line between "fetish dressers" and "non-fetish dressers." There's a mini-spectrum there too: a "spectrum within a spectrum," as it were. Quite a few people have reported starting off as "fetish dressers," but find later in life the fetish aspect becomes less important to them, though they continue dressing more for reasons of gender expression. Of course the reality might be that while the power of sexual urges is what prompted them to crossdress in the first place, the gender aspect was also there all the time, but would have remained inhibited, latent and unexplored without being kick-started by the fetish aspect. Anyway it's clear with some CDers that they're not just "fetish dressers" or just expressing part of their gender identity, but a mixture of both.

[vanphair]

Short background, I am a mostly cisgender male and fully heterosexual. I like many am in a DADT marriage, effectively. I underdress when I can, and am working towards incorporating blouses designed for women into my wardrobe. I may wear more in private, but I don't want to pass nor do I want to adopt a feminine look or completely feminine style when out. I'm simply not interested in that.

I have played out this internal debate many, many times with my therapist, including the question of whether this is "just" a fetish or if its more. Her comments to have been to the effect that labels only matter to the extent they matter to you.

And to me, I have finally decided to identify as part of the LGBTQ spectrum. Why is that? Because I have worked hard in therapy to understand myself and my feelings about wearing women's clothing. I've come to the personal conclusion that when I do so, especially when I underdress, it speaks to a feminine component of my being that I would like to now embrace. I no longer want to fear or feel shame about the fact that I enjoy wearing bras, panties, and more, and that a significant portion of the happiness comes from feeling feminine and enjoying the "femme" feeling of being pretty, sexy, delicate, and more.

Not everyone will feel that way. Nor do they need to. This is a personal decision. And as far as the expanding definition of the LGBTQ community goes, I would absolutely now consider myself a part of it as its breadth is now commonly understood to also encompass persons who do not strictly adhere to the gender "binary."

Intellectually/academically speaking, there are several terms that can apply to individuals like me who "crossdress" and feel feminine when they do it - demimale, demifemale, gender expansive, gender non-conforming and more.

I don't know that any of them fit me perfectly, and that's okay. What matters is that I am one of those people who not only wear apparel designed for women because it feels good and makes me feel sexy/beautiful when i do it, but because it speaks to a feminine portion of my personality and I choose to embrace that. With that embrace of crossing traditionally defined gender boundaries, I can legitimately and authentically define myself as part of the LGBTQ community.

I also find it ironic that anyone in the LGBTQ community would be so judgmental and dismissive of a class of persons who might think that they might belong to the "community." In my mind it's an utter and inexcusable rejection of the message of inclusion, diversity, and tolerance that LGBTQ activists are known to fight for. And it's so strange to think that someone would have to try to justify why they belong in a community that historically considered itself to be oppressed, discriminated against, and subject to so much violence and hatred.

Finally, regarding the recent Supreme Court decision, "crossdressing" is absolutely now a protected activity as a result of the holding. The majority said in effect "One cannot be fired or discriminated against because they do not behave in a way that is consistent with their sex." The holding builds upon an earlier decision that said it was sex-based discrimination to treat a woman differently/poorly in the work place because she "acted like a man" (she drank, cussed, was aggressive, smoked, etc. - in other words acted like a member of the old boys club).

The Roberts court expanded that holding to say that any behavior that falls outside heterosexual gender norms, including homosexuality, identifying as a different gender, etc. is protected because the law prohibits discrimination based on your sex. So if you are man that wears women's clothing and your employer treats you differently in a negative way as a result, you have been unlawfully discriminated against.

Yes I am a lawyer, and that's how I read the decision. In addition, I spoke to my employment law colleagues and friends and they all read the decision the same exact way. In my case, they told me that if I was treated poorly in any way at work because I wore a blouse, a dress, lingerie, etc. while on the job, it would be a slam dunk case of discrimination and the employer would be liable for damages.

You still have to dress "appropriately" and in a way that's consistent with the office dress code, but that means you simply have to adhere to the dress code or portions thereof that relate to your specific gender expression. In other words you can wear a blouse if you are a man, but you have to follow the rules that are set forth as it relates to wearing a blouse (it has to cover your midsection, for instance). Or your skirt has to be whatever length is set forth in the office dress code, but no one can tell you not to wear said conforming skirt because you are otherwise a "man."

It's a huge relief to know that, frankly. It helps embolden me to dress in a way that reflects the "true me" without undue fear of losing my job. Sure I may get looks if people can tell that I have on a bra or realize my buttons are on the "wrong" side of my shirt, but that's they can do. Anything more and they violate the law.

And I will say I hope to volunteer to do more to help people in "our" community understand this new interpretation of the law and how it effects them. Do PM me if you have questions and I'll do my best to direct you to the right resources to allow you to live your best life without fear of unlawful employment discrimination.

[candykowal]

....it seems to be the nature of any group to form around a common interest, and then proceed to internally start trying to define who has the ?biggest dog in the fight? and establish a hierarchy of who most deserves the group?s attention. For instance, how many times have you seen the sentiment expressed, on this forum, along the lines of: Your issue is contemptible. If only you were (insert personal situation here) like me, you wouldn?t have this issue?
Do I consider myself LGBTQ? Never really thought much about it. Do I consider myself ?trans?? Well? I don?t feel I would define myself as transgender, nor have I, or do I want to transition, but, I would have to say I am undeniably a transvestite at times.

Although I take umbrage with someone trying to define me by their own experience and observations, I really don?t care what you call me or think I am. I?ll just worry about what I think I am if that?s ok. If you don?t feel I?m a part of your group, then, fine, but, I have to agree with Sarah. Excluding a group of people, who may have a modicum of understanding, and maybe even more sympathy for LGBTQ concerns and challenges, by ostracizing them in a presentation aimed at encouraging tolerance, seems ridiculous and detrimental to the message.

LGBTQ? Trans? Odd? You decide. I would just like to be pretty once in a while.

Hugs
Meeshell

Well said...Meeshell. I feel the same way! I agree! :battingeyelashes:

[Robertacd]

You still have to dress "appropriately" and in a way that's consistent with the office dress code, but that means you simply have to adhere to the dress code or portions thereof that relate to your specific gender expression. In other words you can wear a blouse if you are a man, but you have to follow the rules that are set forth as it relates to wearing a blouse (it has to cover your midsection, for instance). Or your skirt has to be whatever length is set forth in the office dress code, but no one can tell you not to wear said conforming skirt because you are otherwise a "man."


Your state may be different, but from what I understand it has been this way for a long time as far as dress codes unless the company provides a uniform.

That is why dress codes have to be non gender specific to begin with. For instance my company's dress code basically says Monday through Thursday, Business casual: Then offer a few acceptable suggestions like slacks, button down shirts, dresses and skirts knee length or longer, and a few things that are forbidden like t-shirts and jeans.

It doesn't say men wear slacks and button down shirts or women wear dresses and skirts knee length or longer.

[Alice Torn]

Ressie, You hit it. We are all unique individuals with unique finger prints. I am sick of group think. It stinks, and we are like you say, some of us are just not sure what the heck we are, and we are always evolving and changing with age. Group think is a control thing too. I refuse to be put into a box/

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Pumped, Right on!

[Ressie]

Alice, well put and I agree with you.

[JulesLynne]

Last time I checked, there wasn?t a formal application, exam, or certification. So yes if you think so and no if you don?t.

[Kimberly A.]

After reading a lot of replies to this, plus the original post, my whole thing is this..... If you just simply choose to be only a M to F crossdresser, but you're a straight guy, then who says you HAD to identify with LGBTQ+ If you choose not to identify as such, then simply don't and I think it's as simple as that. I mean, I don't identify with LGBQ+ because I'm a straight guy and I just choose not to.

[Paula_56]

We are all queer

[Michellebej]

Wow, I didn't even know there was a question about this.

In my community cd's are part of the LGBT community. The only place I see any issue is with the male gay community.

I know Gay men who are ok with you dressing if you are there to be picked up. Or if you use it as a fetish, but can come down negatively if you are just dressing to dress and are straight.

On the other hand I hang out with Lesbians and they include us, no matter our orientation.

I have seen, now that I think of it, some resistance from a few radical sisters.

Shrugs....I really never thought we were not part of the community till now.

[Alice Torn]

Paula, Yes we are are unique individuals with our quirks, and we are always evolving, and very complex beings. i do not being put into a box. I am a bit or very odd and crazy for sure!

[Sally Paradise]

I never really thought about this either, I tend to avoid labels in general though. I?m okay with ?crossdresser? because I crossdress, but I don?t feel it defines me any more than most adjectives do. I?m just me.

[Suzie Petersen]

Vanphair (snip of a longer post): I also find it ironic that anyone in the LGBTQ community would be so judgmental and dismissive of a class of persons who might think that they might belong to the "community." In my mind it's an utter and inexcusable rejection of the message of inclusion, diversity, and tolerance that LGBTQ activists are known to fight for. And it's so strange to think that someone would have to try to justify why they belong in a community that historically considered itself to be oppressed, discriminated against, and subject to so much violence and hatred.

Finally, regarding the recent Supreme Court decision, "crossdressing" is absolutely now a protected activity as a result of the holding. The majority said in effect "One cannot be fired or discriminated against because they do not behave in a way that is consistent with their sex." The holding builds upon an earlier decision that said it was sex-based discrimination to treat a woman differently/poorly in the work place because she "acted like a man" (she drank, cussed, was aggressive, smoked, etc. - in other words acted like a member of the old boys club).

The Roberts court expanded that holding to say that any behavior that falls outside heterosexual gender norms, including homosexuality, identifying as a different gender, etc. is protected because the law prohibits discrimination based on your sex. So if you are man that wears women's clothing and your employer treats you differently in a negative way as a result, you have been unlawfully discriminated against.

Yes I am a lawyer, and that's how I read the decision. In addition, I spoke to my employment law colleagues and friends and they all read the decision the same exact way. In my case, they told me that if I was treated poorly in any way at work because I wore a blouse, a dress, lingerie, etc. while on the job, it would be a slam dunk case of discrimination and the employer would be liable for damages.

You still have to dress "appropriately" and in a way that's consistent with the office dress code, but that means you simply have to adhere to the dress code or portions thereof that relate to your specific gender expression. In other words you can wear a blouse if you are a man, but you have to follow the rules that are set forth as it relates to wearing a blouse (it has to cover your midsection, for instance). Or your skirt has to be whatever length is set forth in the office dress code, but no one can tell you not to wear said conforming skirt because you are otherwise a "man."

It's a huge relief to know that, frankly. It helps embolden me to dress in a way that reflects the "true me" without undue fear of losing my job. Sure I may get looks if people can tell that I have on a bra or realize my buttons are on the "wrong" side of my shirt, but that's they can do. Anything more and they violate the law.

First, I agree with your regarding the irony of what you describe there!
Second, Thank you for sharing your professional and informed opinion regarding the recent ruling.
- Suzie