voice transitioning

[Swottie]

Hi everyone,

I came across some videos of several mtf people on YouTube talking about how they have trained their speaking voice to natural feminine tones, and they sounded as close to cis female as imaginable, no trace of masculine voice or falsetto voice. I was wondering if anyone have had success in achieving a feminine voice from voice coaching alone, without going through surgery? How long did it take you? One video said it took her 3 years to get to where she was.

Thanks
S

[Jeri Ann]

Voice training is possible for some people but not everyone, just like singing, impersonations, etc. Some people are anatomically equipped to be more versatile with their voice.

It is a very complicated process involving pitch, timber, inflection, pace, breathing, vocabulary, sentence structure, etc., etc.

I did training at the University of Houston's Department of Speech Pathology for about a year. I gave up. It hardly matters anymore. There is just too much life to live to invest the time it was taking.

I even went to Houston Methodists Voice Institute and consulted with Dr. Thedke, one of the noted experts on voice. The surgery is still not perfected.

I still get misgendered on the phone sometimes but it doesn't bother me as much anymore. The last two times I went through a drive through I did not get misgendered.

Also, statistically, of those who eventually achieve a convincing female voice, only a small percentage will be still maintaining it a few years later. I forget the exact numbers.

Three years! That is a lot of time to invest.

[Katya@]

I am on the second semester of training through the speech pathology center at the local college. They provide servicef for free as it is part of the training for their graduate students. It is a slowly process but it progresses nevertheless in the right direction. I saw quite a few videos on YouTube and was discouraged by professionals at the center to use some of the techniques discussed on YouTube like trying pull the Adam's apple up and forward. There are many ways to damage the voice permanently so you should not necessarily do what others suggest just because it appears to work for them.
Katya

[Teresa]

Jeri Ann,
So good to read your reply , there's no denying the facts on this issue .

Swottie,
No one can stop you taking those steps if it's what you feel you need to succeed . To me we have so many small traits or telltales that can't be corrected , the first being the part of our brain that will remain forever male , there will always be instances when that part surfaces , we can't control every aspect 24/7 .
I still feel our visual aspect comes first , how we are read in those first few seconds of contact , what we sound like comes secondary to that .
To take Jeri Ann's point about our voice , some can achieve it better than others , at 69 my voice is nothing like it use to be also I hear myself differently now I wear hearing aids , I really can't say what my natural voice sounds like but it doesn't appear to be a problem . If you have to speak for long periods sustaining the altered voice is very hard if you wish to talk coherently , it's better to be natural than risk making a fool of yourself .

Sometimes we have to take Youtube with a pinch of salt , some of it is make beleive , the RW is the great leveller not the internet .

[Nadine Spirit]

Hiya - I am working on my voice, and it has been going very well actually. I first did some voice therapy, private online sessions once a week, for about 4 months. I got a good grasp of the concepts Jeri Ann spoke of. I had some things going for me already, like inflection, not a super low starting pitch, my sentence structure has always been more feminine, also I never restricted my more feminine physical gestures either. My therapist and I worked on things like pitch, tone, and increasing inflections. Lots of discussion on using musculature to reshape the vocal tract like teeth, tongue, cheeks, lips, etc. It can be a very technical process. Anywho about 2 months of this and I stopped being misgendered on the phone and it has not ever happened since. After four months I felt I had learned all I was going to and I stopped working directly with my therapist however I had lots of practice materials to keep working with, which I did.

After a year or so I realized I thought I could a bit better and so I asked my therapist if we could start working together again, but only seeing each other like once a month. I am very particular with some things, as well I do a podcast, and I am middle school math teacher. My voice is very important to me and expect a lot from it. As well, I am realizing how affirming it is to me to sound more like I think I should. I've been working again for a few months now and my voice is sounding better than ever, and continuing to get better the more I practice.

So yeah, voice training can work. I know for me trying to follow YouTubers was not a method I wanted to attempt. Being a teacher I can see a difference between someone who can do something and someone who can explain to someone else how to do something. There is a difference. Many girls have changed their voices far better than I have, but they are not teachers and really can't figure out your voice and your needs like a fully certified SLP can especially when they are experienced in working with transgender clients, both MtF and FtM. If they can help one way they should be able to help the other as well.

I LOVE my voice therapist and will gladly give referrals to her for I think she is the absolute best! My voice has given me so much! Yes, it is not perfect and I am picky as heck, but hey, I have not been misgendered on the phone once in 1.5 years, that's pretty cool!

[kimdl93]

I am still falling short of my personal voice goal: to sound like Terri Gross on Fresh Air.

[Sarah Doepner]

I am still falling short of my personal voice goal: to sound like Terri Gross on Fresh Air.

I'd be happy to sound like Bea Arthur. :battingeyelashes:

[Maid_Marion]

I had speech therapy after a traumatic brain injury. Spent a month in a rehab facility so I had plenty of time to observe others going through rehab.
I found it very useful. I had a very monotonic speech but I did learn to enunciate words clearly. It took just a few months to learn how to modulate sentences.

The biggest factor is how much you are willing to practice. If you can, a couple times a day for short periods is better than one long session. If you can only practice once a week I doubt therapy will help you.
But, it also has to be good practice. If you aren't pushing yourself you aren't learning. This is where the therapist comes in. They can make sure your practice sessions are appropriate and that you aren't learning bad habits.

Marion

[KimberlyJean]

I believe it's more about speech patterns and what you say more than the pitch of your voice. Unless of course you are a deep baritone, then you are screwed. My voice can go either way, depending on what I say and how I say it.

[Aunt Kelly]

I'd be happy to sound like Bea Arthur. :battingeyelashes:

You did know that Bea Arthur was transwoman. Right? ;)

[mechamoose]

I'm learning about the spoken voice part now too.

However, I have been singing in choirs since I was six, and currently take voice lessons from an instructor who specializes in musical stage and opera. I'm a "Tenor", with a working range of F2-E5. I can go higher at the cost of clarity.

This is all done with body positioning, breath control and head resonance. I don't feel any of my singing in the throat any more.

That said, I can snap into that resonance mode and use a higher register voice without an issue. I already talk in the 'sing song' kind of tones that females use just because.. well, its me.

But in watching videos on how to speak with a female voice, there is a bit more 'there' there.. There is phrasing to use and avoid, methods of framing sentences, etc... so I still have a bunch to adsorb. I'm trying to get into the habit of using that higher register voice, and its tricky to make it happen without MAKING it happen. I know it will eventually become habit. I *totally* blew it at the deli counter this morning having to shout my order to the clerk.

<3

- MM

[Peta_T]

I've been trying to decide if I should reply to this thread or not with the results of my investigations. Ok Here goes.

NOTE: I've investigated this issue due me being a male bass, I mean seriously bass, so anything to lift that close to a feminine register is something I'm going to look hard at.

As Jerri said, voice training has varied results based on individual physical anatomy, Just by training them, my overly long male vocal chords are never going to be anything other than male. Trust me I've tried for years.

That brings us to the surgical methods which Jerri also touched on in passing.

There are two comments I want to make here regarding the surgical mechanisms.

1) As Jerri said, these are NOT perfected yet, not even close. (The most promising method for me was not even thought of just 5 years ago.)

2) On YouTube or Doctors websites you'll find wonderful examples of the successes of these procedures. These are great as they give hope that in the near future, people like me can actually fix one very big problem.
HOWEVER, it is NOT the success stories that should be keeping you in that Doctor's office. It's the failures that should be doing that.

Right now, the rate at which these procedures fail is significant. (Thus the need for more research into them)

Failures range from procedure failure to vocal damage to total and complete loss of voice.

Basically what I'm saying here is that surgically there is hope, in time.
What you need to do, if you are thinking of going down this route, is the research the crap out not only the procedure but the doctor as well. Look at not only the successes but more importantly the failures of the procedure.

These surgeries are NOT something that can be undone if it goes wrong.

[Devi SM]

I'd been a musician since I was 5 years old and my mom put me on the conservatory and I was there for 6 years plauing violin but I wanted piano.
So with what I said is that I know what Jeri Ann was talking and she's right.
The voice is an instrument that can be trained.
When a kid I remember to hear my voice in a tape recorder and it sounded like a woman. Later it changed a bit darker but my voice was always high pitch in the upper range or tenor. Singing in a quartet, the 4 voices were first tenor, that goes high as a woman, then tenor, the more common male pitch, then baritone and bass.
I had a great wide register and could go down as a baritone using all techniques learned when studying music like imposing the voice, but I was always more comfortable being a second tenor.

When I started living full time I started paying more attention to my voice. I could sing the whole day while driving pushing my register with some techniques and achieve high tones so people could feel OK with me but there was a problem, as in the movie "Normal"

When I got upset, when the "natural" me comes out the natural male voice appears and is hard to control. The voice and pitch more than be rooted physiological is rooted in the unconscious that is almost impossible to control or modify.

I'm starting my own business and that means to talk by phone a lot, at the beginning is easy to keep in the woman's range but soon when relaxed, the pitch goes a bit down and I can easily be misgendered.

After all these struggles I arrive at the same conclusion with other "male" feature issues: I am a transgender woman, when people know me they can feel uncomfortable, feel OK or feel great with me. It doesn't matter how many efforts I can put in my presentation, acting, mannerisms, voice, etc, there will be always people that will catch me and that used to triggers the dysphoria on me so I prefer to be more honest, transparent and let people to decide if they will do business with me for being honest than to look, speak and act like a woman so after all,

THE WORLD NEEDS TO KNOW WHAT A TRANSGENDER WOMAN IS.
We're no fakers, we're the most honest people in the world because after leave the closet there's nothing else to hide.

it's like to try to hide the sun with a finger, I can't tell my three kids, married men to call me mapa or whatever other people like to be call, they will never call me mom because they have just one mom and one Dad and that's the way they will keep calling me forever.

It's like to deny that I'm and immigrant. It's doesn't matter how much I can learn English, my habits, food preferences etc tell I'm Hispanic.

After all, I left once the closet to my wife and I don't need to keep pretending I am a man or a woman because I'm a a trans woman.

MHO.

Devi

[Jeri Ann]

This is all great information on a subject that gets obscured by misinformation and fantasy.

I failed to mention that before my training could begin at the University of Houston, I had to get medical clearance from an ENT. The director of the program told me that the training would be very strenuous. The next step was 2 1/2 hours of testing and evaluation. All this is done by graduate students. After the eval it was several weeks of exercising muscles of the mouth and neck plus breathing exercises before specific sounds and words were started.

Again, it just was not worth it to me. Life needed to go on. I was never talented with my voice and could not make it happen.

As I have said before, the ways that we communicate are; the tone of our voice, the words we use, facial expressions, gestures and body position. You can develop a perfect female voice but walk like a dude and you will not fool anyone. Besides, it is not necessary to fool anyone. Being honest, authentic and natural has worked for me everywhere I go. No one mistakes me for a guy that I know of. Of course, I never bother to notice anyway.

One thing that Pita didn't mention about the still experimental surgeries is that you can not talk, sneeze or cough for two weeks. Doing so ruins the surgery. Sheesh, that would be impossible here in Houston with the Saharan dust blowing in from Africa all summer.

Devi has done an excellent job of explaining how you can get caught up in the struggle to look and act the part. The most important thing to do is just be natural.

[Dorit]

This thread is EXACTLY what I need to hear now. I am over my medical transition(Except for a minor GRS revision that is yet to happen) and very pleased and happy with my body. I am always correctly gendered in public, often complimented, and even occasionally receive a surprise reaction if I tell a new person I was once outwardly male. They see the whole picture! However, on the phone I am consistently misgendered. At 73 years old and never being musically gifted I just have to let it go and be me! You girls are such a gift to me, this forum has been such a help in my transition. Thank you!!

[Teresa]

Perhaps we should get this question in perspective , and appreciate we can communicate at all .

My daughter is a qualified speech and language therapist, she has to take people after strokes or severe accidents or children who fail to communicate and teach them how to speak . Consider also totally deaf people, while I've never heard of a deaf TG person I'm sure there must be some , imagine the obstacles these people face .

I content myself that the majority of the time I'm accepted as Teresa , my life is enjoyable now and I'm happier than I've been in along time , my voice is part of me , it doesn't raise any problems , so what if I get misgendered on the phone at least I can speak and hear the person on the other end , to some I'm very lucky .

[Jeri Ann]

At my church there are three interpreters for the deaf. One of them is a trans man and one is gender nonconforming. The dozen or so deaf people that attend all sit together at the far right, in front of the interpreter on duty (they swap out). I have always wanted to learn ASL. About a year ago I started sitting with them. During the singing I would follow along, imitating the interpreter. I learned quickly and learned a lot.

It never occurred to me how feminine and expressive ASL can be. I miss it.

[Krisi]

Aside from the obvious pitch and inflection differenced between male and female voices, I find that females tend to use many more words to say something than a male typically does. Stop sometime and listen to your wife or a female friend talking to someone and you will see this is true.

[Jeri Ann]

Yes, I have already mentioned vocabulary which includes the choice, quantity and order of words.

The op asked if anyone has had success in achieving a convincing female voice. The answer is, some but not most. I think, statistically, of those who achieve a convincing female voice, only 40% have maintained it after two years.

Even if you do achieve the holy grail, and can maintain it forever, there is so much more to communication than just the voice.

[Devi SM]

As always Jeri Ann have the reason but I'd like you ladues do an experiment, check the documentary Disclosure, it's in Netflix, you can see a lot of famous trans women and men as well, like Laverne Cox, very popular, she has a very femenine worked voice but you can say that she had before a male voice. My point is after a while, you don't pay attention on the pitch or how femenine is the voice but to the message.

I'm a follower of Jennifer Finney Boylan on Instagram and had seen some videos of her giving lectures in the university where she teaches literature, her voice is not from a woman but everybody learns a lot.

if the job of feminization of the voice is not good will be an unpleasant experience for the hearer, so for me, again, the message is to be honest and show the world that we are the most honest people and no a bunch of fakers imitators or a woman.

Mho.

Devi

[Teresa]

Jeri Ann ,
I must take care not to sidetrack the thread too much . I'm also grateful to read deaf people can succesfully live a trans lifestyle .

I must admit I'm slightly guilty of not learning sign language , my daughter is obviously an expert as it's part of her training , luckily it came in useful when her own daughter lost the ability to speak through her autism . I agree with your comment how it is a more feminine attribute , the movement of the fingers, wrist and arms and to a point the mouth . I still managed to communicate with her , I'm so glad she recovered just at the point when she started school . Now she is just as cheeky as my two grandsons but I can forgive her for that .

[Aunt Kelly]

I have been a singer for most of my life, and a voice actor for the last several years. My natural baritone is virtually impossible to overcome, even with concerted attention all those nuances, so I don't worry about it. Oh, I still pay attention and try to affect those things I easily can (things beside resonance and pitch), but at the end of the day, who we are, how we're perceived and treated, is defined by so much more than just our speech. I couldn't begin to count all the times I've seen that wide-eyed double-take (you know the one) that comes after I open my mouth and speak to someone who had assumed I was cis female. It's amazing, the number of times that's as remarkable as the interaction ever gets. Most will recover, smile, and pick up right where they left off. Even more amazing is how, for those who find themselves really flustered, a smile and unfazed demeanor will put them at ease. No, I'm not leaving out the haters, for whom there is usually no help, but they're a statistical anomaly. As I've said before, most people will treat you pretty much how you deserve to be treated, regardless of the pitch of your voice.

[IamWren]

I have had some relative success in teaching myself through videos and researching the physical mechanics of the throat and voice. But still, after more than a year and a half of working at it, there is just something that is kind of off.

I think every trans person has a sort of... I don’t know. Like... priority list of things that is important regarding their transition. For some it’s the need to have breasts, others it’s smaller muscle mass, for some changing the structure of their face is important to feel like it helps and obviously the list could go on for a while and include minutia.

What is important to one may not be that important to another but whatever that “thing” is... it takes time and effort. Unless of course you’re willing to take on the risk of a surgery that may or may not give the desired result.

[SusanLeigh3454]

Voice has been difficult for me. I do much better when I speak softly, but if I make a loud sound, I feel like I have been blowing up balloons with helium

[Lana Mae]

I do not have any voice training and do not plan any! I have found Lana Mae's voice and will use it! So far my daughter is the only one who has complained! She says it is higher pitch than hers! There is another but I can not find it on demand that is perfect! It is between Harry's baritone and Lana's soprano! It is what it is! Hugs Lana Mae

[Nadine Spirit]

A couple of add-ons to my original post on this topic.......

If you do decide to go the route of surgery please be aware that most surgeons want you to at least attempt voice therapy prior to surgery. And yes what Jeri Ann said is correct, there is no speaking or sound making for some time after the surgery, I've heard 2-8 weeks. Eeek! As well, after voice surgery you will still need voice therapy as typically you do not just speak your first words after surgery with a beautiful high pitched smooth voice. Oh and I do know someone who had the surgery and it didn't work so well, by her statements she likes my non-surgically achieved voice better.

Secondly, yes my voice is good, but I practice all of the time. As in several times per day, and have been doing so for the past 1.5 years, and will continue to practice until it becomes automatic, if that sort of thing will ever happen. I think it will, but only time will tell for sure. I have sayings that I do before I speak that help me to put my voice at the right pitch, I also have flashcards that I flip through and practice, multiple times per day. I have a voice support group I began with some friends. I practice with my wife, my sister, my students, in my car, while singing, blah, blah, blah. I'm a teacher and have been for 25 years. I am paying for my voice therapy out of my own pocket. I'm going to approach it with the attitude of an A+ student that knows she can succeed as long as she puts in enough time, effort, energy, dedication, and persistence.

[Katya@]

Hi Nadine,

Kudos to being diligent. I have found that doing daily homework is hard for my voice therapy. I practice in the car when I remember, and when I read book to kids. Otherwise, trying to use what I learned every day I talk to someone.

[Jeri Ann]

There have been many sincere responses to this thread that began three weeks ago. The op has never responded. Thread closed.