Told my wife...

[Brandi Christine]

Hi All,

So I told her on Saturday, it was a rollercoaster for sure, lots of tears from both of us?

Sunday and Monday we talked a lot about things to do with what I am, who I am, and while I'm not thinking she's too interested in seeing the fem side of me, she doesn't hate me for it. I told her I would answer any questions she has and have done so, some were hard to answer, or maybe embarrassing is the better term. The big fear she has is me wanting to continue on with transitioning in the future, something I don?t think I want to do, as long as we are married I would not go there, and even If I were suddenly single I'm still not sure, as I said before the costs, personally, socially, economically (on top of divorce too?) are high.

Then last night I woke up to her crying at 11:30, she said she couldn't do it, couldn't go through with us staying together, she was also physically ill & shaking. We talked for a couple hours and got her to fall asleep in my arms, so at least it got a little better. It seems she had read some psychology forums and is truly afraid that I will continue in becoming more feminine no matter what. She is very unhappy with the current trend in therapy to reassure you that you are OK doing what you are doing, rather than aversion/avoidance and dealing with the issue and stopping it. My therapist helped me to not hate myself, and I am now accepting of what I do, and yes I like it? It is not something my wife likes to hear. She does understand what I do is due to my history, but she does not believe there is a biological component to it, and that there is a possibility of me stopping it in the future if there is something else to fill that void. I told her I have tried in the past, and it always has come back into my life.

She did say she is not going to make any hasty decisions and as given us 90 days to come to terms with all this. We are also working on our marriage through a therapy "App" called "Lasting" and have honestly talked to each other more in the last week than in the last year, we are making progress on several issues, but I'm still not sure how things will work out in November. She did stress that she is not expecting me to just quite crossdressing, so there is a glimmer of hope...

[Visitor]

How brave and how disturbing to be unpacking all these feelings Brandi. However this unfolds, the fact you're still engaged in conversation about it is good. As a single person I don't have to take the feelings of another person into account as I make choices. Yes, there are the other things you mention that might be too costly if you moved to transition. We all have to come to terms with those and I'm pretty clear that is not something that will be part of my journey. Listen closely to what your wife is saying and listen deeply to what your heart is telling you. There is no one size fits all for men who express this way. You are at this moment finding what it true for yourself and doing so with a person you've chosen to love. Be exquisitely gentle with yourself and kind to her.

[Samm]

Brandie, I often think of what it would be like to live full time. But the costs (on all fronts) are too great for me as well. But I'm ok with that. The more I've thought about it, I've realized I dont think full time is right for me anyway.
What's important for me is that I maintain a balance. My wife supports me, and knows I need this part of me to have relevance.
The only thing with your wife's reaction I disagree with, is putting a time limit on things. For me, that would add unneeded stress on both parties waiting for that clock to run down.
It's taken some here years to find that balance. Including me.
But of course, you lnow you better than any of us here.
Hang in there, hun.

[TheHiddenMe]

She is very unhappy with the current trend in therapy to reassure you that you are OK doing what you are doing, rather than aversion/avoidance and dealing with the issue and stopping it. My therapist helped me to not hate myself, and I am now accepting of what I do, and yes I like it? It is not something my wife likes to hear.

The reason that it the current trend in therapy of acceptance is BECAUSE THE OLD THEORY ABOUT AVERSION DOESN'T WORK. It harmed more people than it ever helped. In the past, tons of gay men when through aversion "therapy" and they were just as gay at the end of the "therapy" as they were at the beginning.

None of us know exactly why we wish to cross dress, or why our gender doesn't match our sex organs. We just do.

Yes, these are things your wife won't want to hear, because her beliefs are completely wrong, and probably 25 years out of date.

Good luck.

[RADER]

THE BIG THING TO DO IS TO TAKE IT REAL SLOW
Yes I used all cap's. but I want to make the point that too much to fast,
and she will run away. So go slow. ask her what you should wear or what
she would like to see you ware. Good luck.
Rader

[Just Dana]

Hi Brandi,

I can't give you any advice, but I did want to offer my long distance good wishes to you and your wife. What you've done is very brave. I hope she can be just as brave and give you two a chance to make things work.

Hugs,
Dana

[Pumped]

One thing I think helped my wife and I, is I told her I want to include her in my dressing. Even though she was not interested at first I kept telling her I wanted her to stay with me and we would get through this together. Even when we had pretty much DADT the subject of CD'ing would come up and I would tell her when she was ready I wanted to include her. We have gone from DADT, to full participation. I dress around her now, but it took a million tiny steps to get this far. Some forward, some backwards. I asked her a while back that I wanted to buy a wig, shave and have her do my makeup. She said no way! I am going to ask again one day, just maybe...

Baby steps! Keep her informed, let her you love her and she is important to you, (My wife is!). Don't force the Cd'ing on her. Let her know when she is ready for the next step. "Boil the frog!"

Tonight we sat and watched TV. When she got up to get ready for bed I went and selected an outfit. My black faux leather "fetish" dress, thigh highs with a garter belt, high heels and bra with forms. The dress is so short the garter straps and tops of the stocking show. She just looked and me and said I guess it is time to put your boobs on. We visited a bit more while I got dressed and she got ready for bed, then she came over and sat on my lap for a couple minutes and talked and snuggled before she went to bed.

[GretchenM]

It concerns me that she has put a deadline on the process. Ninety days is not very long because it often takes a long time to adjust. It is also important to know more about why she is concerned. The fear of you transitioning may only be a part of it. There is also trust and a perception that she may have that you don't respect her needs as much as she needs. In the gender binary world it is very easy to get that out of balance because males are dominant and females are submissive to his dominance in that style of thinking. Not useful if you claim to be more feminine than if it is a contradiction for you, a male, to pull rank on her and dominate her. Check and make sure you are being more womanly toward her and also discuss how you two view that male/female relationship within your own marriage. It is best to try and keep it as equal as you can, especially if you are showing vastly more feminine than the average male. But she may not like that kind of relationship and really wants a more traditional structure. Explore that aspect thoroughly and understand where each of you are on that.

It is really important for you to be fully aware of her feelings and not do what some try to do which is put pressure on her to conform to your wishes. Not saying you are doing that but make sure to check your feelings and motivations often and if you feel you are emphasizing your feelings and needs more than hers, do some correcting. The idea of taking tiny baby steps is really important. This is all very new for both of you and moving too fast does not allow your relationship to catch up and adapt.

Both of you need to talk about boundaries and observe them carefully. It builds trust which she may not have much in you right now as a result of visiting psychology forums. Those damn things are dangerous because they are not based on your circumstances but only the general thinking of mostly non professional people. Too generalized to take with confidence and insufficiently applied to your circumstances and the details of your relationship. That is a bad blend.

I went to therapy at first and then my wife went a few times as well to get a feel for what the future might hold. She is not a participator and does not want to meet Gretchen and that is OK. Our boundaries are set to a good job of protecting each of us from what we can't do that she can't unsee if they happen. You also need to get really in touch with your own feelings. I wanted to transition and then realized transitioning would just reverse the situation - I would be a woman who would want to be a man a lot of the time. That's pointless. You may be different, but find out now so you can calibrate your compass initially in a direction that is not just appropriate for you but appropriate for your relationship.

Care can save your marriage at times like these, but it is not that different from other situations that require a big shift in the relationship. You need to work out a mutual understanding of each other through respecting the rights and needs of each other, perhaps even more than yourself. I view a marriage as a threesome - you, her, and the union of the two of you in a more or less mutual direction with mutual respect for individual needs without dominating each other forcing one to sacrifice their values to satisfy the other person's needs when they are not consistent enough to accomplish that. That is very much a part of loving each other - otherwise you are more like roomies.

[DianeT]

Don't force the Cd'ing on her. Let her know when she is ready for the next step. "Boil the frog!"

Pumped, forcing the CDing to your wife in baby steps seems to me like still forcing the CDing on your wife. Does she know how far you intend to take your crossdressing, and her with it? Because otherwise that would mean that you are playing games with her, and many GGs around these forums have said at length how they resent this.

[docrobbysherry]

These days, Brandi, most marriages end in divorce. And, they have nothing to do with CDing!:sad:

It is what it is. I hope things work out the best for u and your SO!:brolleyes:

[char GG]

I agree with many things said here, particularly Gretchen, Diane T, and Pumped's posts. I would just add that 90 days is just a start, really. I would think in terms of "years" for a newly informed wife to learn about her husband's CDing. Of course, everyone is different to times may vary. I hope things work out for you two, however, 90 days doesn't seem realistic.

[MonicaPVD]

This is certainly a difficult situation to be in. You may have to decide between giving up this aspect of your personal life or giving up your family life as you know it. Either way it is a very difficult choice. From what you describe, my sense is that you won't be able to negotiate a compromise. Best of luck. Sometimes a family is worth sacrificing for. People have been doing it for hundreds if not thousands of years.

[Joyce Swindell]

WOW! Good for you!
I told my current wife before she was my wife. My first marriage Joyce was not know of for many years into the marriage until I was caught. There was the hard times you are experiencing now but I consider the way you have brought the information out to her is the right way. Seems she is giving you kudos for the honesty and maybe realizes how hard it must have been for you. So just the fact she is talking and asking question is a good sign. Even if it ends it doesn't sound like a brutal separation.
Good luck

[Teresa]

Brandiaz,
It might help your wife to see a gender counsellor to get her to undestand what drives most of us . It does sound familiar my wife thought counselling would be a cure rather than helping to come to terms with it . Perhaps you also need to honest with yourself first , never rule out going further down the road because many do after promising they wouldn't . I can understand the fears both of you face but they often prove surmountable , being TG is not the end of the World , it's perfectly livable , I know my wife has many regrets now , I have none .

I'm not sure if any deadline should be laid down , it can be worked out given time but not a deadline .

[Liz Jones]

Perhaps She means 90days to the reassesment of things.......
Liz

[kimdl93]

I have some concern about the on-line sources she may be consulting and any on line counseling for that matter. One of the grave problems of ?research? via the internet is confirmation bias. Google searches tend to lead towards information that confirms preexisting ideas. When dealing with a cross dressing partner, these searches can easily lead one to sites that are deeply biased towards negative and destructive responses. I also tend to think that counseling demand a level of candor that is hard to attain with an online resources.

[Micki_Finn]

Well said Kim. The availability of “information” on the internet is the source of a LOT of our problems today. You can come up with any crackpot idea and find someone who will agree with and reinforce that idea.

It’s a tough situation Brandi, and sometimes relationships end over this. It’s not anyone’s fault, but there does seem to be a tendency to blame the spouse for “not being able to accept” their partners dressing. Don’t fall into that trap. Just do what you can, and if it ends, accept that it is what was ultimately best for you both.

[Pumped]

Pumped, forcing the CDing to your wife in baby steps seems to me like still forcing the CDing on your wife. Does she know how far you intend to take your crossdressing, and her with it? Because otherwise that would mean that you are playing games with her, and many GGs around these forums have said at length how they resent this.

I understand, but don't most force CD'ing on to there wife? How many just quit dressing because their wife is not accepting? We all push it onto our wives. (At least the married ones)

[Micki_Finn]

I don’t push anything on to my wife thank you very much. She shops for me more than I do. She’s frequently wanting me to get dressed. So no, not all of us push this on our wives.

[JIJI Xx]

my very longterm 'girlfriend' left me, no reason given, but I assume JIJI had something to do with it..... but I had never tried to hide (couldn't actually) because it's just me, and if I had to hide from the person I was closest to in the world, what would be the point of the relationship?

[Pumped]

I don’t push anything on to my wife thank you very much. She shops for me more than I do. She’s frequently wanting me to get dressed. So no, not all of us push this on our wives.

But what would change if she was not accepting? Would you stop, or keep dressing and make her deal with your decision.

You and a few of us here are in a good place with our wives, but most all here have had issues with dressing and their wives, some lead to divorce. When you told your wife about you dressing was she all for it from the start, or was there some reluctance?

[DianeT]

I understand, but don't most force CD'ing on to there wife? How many just quit dressing because their wife is not accepting? We all push it onto our wives. (At least the married ones)
I wasn't talking of the CDing itself, but of the fact of gradually pushing the envelope once revealed. For a wife this makes it impossible to adjust as you move the goal posts every other moment, and the whole thing looks like a spiral with no end. Also, she doesn't know what's in store for her, and the moment she may think she does you will push one more challenge onto her. In her shoes I would feel like a mouse in a roll cage, it would drive me nuts. This is what I call playing games with her. If I did this to my wife it would end really badly. If I were you I would not "boil the frog" but rather discuss boundaries with her and listen to what she has to say about it. She may be silently suffering a lot from these seemingly innocuous baby steps. Also what may seem small steps to you may be huge challenges to her.

[Jenny22]

Try to get her onto the GG forum. We often don't know why we do what we do, and you should tell her that. Both of you go to counseling/therapy with a qualified therapist. Don't overly push her in the 90 days. Nudging a bit is OK, but don't shove, Baby steps. If the 90 days pass, ask for another 120 days! If there is a true love between you, there is an answer. Good luck!

[nvlady]

Just because a guy likes to crossdress doesn't mean he is going to transition. I've been crossdressing for over sixty years and I have no desire to transition.

[Pumped]

I wasn't talking of the CDing itself, but of the fact of gradually pushing the envelope once revealed. For a wife this makes it impossible to adjust as you move the goal posts every other moment, and the whole thing looks like a spiral with no end. Also, she doesn't know what's in store for her, and the moment she may think she does you will push one more challenge onto her. In her shoes I would feel like a mouse in a roll cage, it would drive me nuts. This is what I call playing games with her. If I did this to my wife it would end really badly. If I were you I would not "boil the frog" but rather discuss boundaries with her and listen to what she has to say about it. She may be silently suffering a lot from these seemingly innocuous baby steps. Also what may seem small steps to you may be huge challenges to her.

Trust me, in our case it includes a lot of discussion. IMO, no discussion will lead to failure.

I guess when I said "boil the frog" I meant to take it slow and not toss everything on her at once. My wife responded very well to taking it one step at a time. If I had walked out on her wearing a full outfit, Dress, heels, lingerie, including forms I think her head would have exploded. I introduced my CD'ing one step at a time as she was able to accept it.

[Brandi Christine]

I think I made a mistake in telling her.

Had a bad night last night, we were up much too late and I am getting from her that while she isn't telling me to stop right now she is telling me I need to stop? She is asking specifically for me to stop seeing my therapist and find another, one who will help me stop.

From her point she is afraid I will continue to "push the boundaries" as stated above in this forum, I in no way want or expect her participation, only her acceptance that this is a part of me, and it is something I can't stop, and in all honestly, and I told he this, something I do not want to stop, at least by a part of me? My plan before telling her was to take this to my grave as a secret that no one in the world knew about, I feel I can continue in that way, sort of a don?t ask don't tell thing, now I don't know.

I also don?t know why I do this, it makes me feel good? It is something I just do? But as to the whys I don?t know, I wasn't abused, I wasn't dressed up as a little girl, I wasn't traumatized, and when the therapist said it could very well be biological, at least in part, it made me feel better, less of a freak, accepting that it was ok. In all truth does it matter why? It is a part of me.

She doesn't buy the biological argument in any way, in her world there is no "just born that way," and is pressing me in ways I don?t want to be pressed. I feel smothered right now, I have always been a person who needs a lot of alone time, something I feel she has never really liked. Now I am afraid I am losing one of those things I enjoy in my life, she wants to fill that void with her, and I feel I am losing my identity, who I am, and I don?t want to have to choose between her and it?

I love this woman, I adore her, and I understand that she wants to fight for me, needs to fight for me, but she is fighting a part of me, that hurts and I don?t know what to do. I have told her I'm not going anywhere, not moving forward, that I am happy to dip my toes into femininity, not jump into that ocean and drown myself. I don?t think she will accept that.

[Nadine Spirit]

I know it is hard and I know it seems like a mistake to have revealed your secret, but personally I think you still made the right choice. Living a truth is better than trying to live a lie and hoping you don't get caught.

She is fighting a part of you that can't be fought. The fact that she wants you to go to a different therapist that will help you to stop, and that you referenced current therapeutic practice as a "trend," to me says that there is some misunderstanding going on.

Personally my wife said she would leave me if I ever transitioned. I transitioned about 2 years ago and we are still together. Why? We have been in therapy for about 3 years now, separate therapists, and we also did marriage therapy for a little while. This helped to educate us on what it means to be transgender. Which is what you are missing. Your wife is not educated and the education she is getting off of Google right now is a jaded viewpoint. In order to salvage things she needs to be willing to become more educated and less reactionary to what she thinks it means to be transgender. She is afraid right now and it is that fear that is driving her and making things very difficult. Fear is a tough thing to combat and the only thing I have found that works is education.

So, good luck!

[Paulie Birmingham]

Tough choices to make. Most women are ok with CD in general but not with their husband. It would be interesting if someone started a poll, but even here the percentage is low.

[char GG]

I'm very sorry that you are going through this. It's hard to comment on other people's lives because we don't know you or your wife. However, just remember that this is very new to your wife and she is going through an emotional turmoil. Please try to be patient and help her learn all that she can about you. For her, it may take a lot time to digest something that you have know most of your life.

[JennyMay]

Hi Brandiaztv, I don’t really know what to say but I wanted to send some love your way. I think that what you have done in telling you wife is both very brave and very respectful of her. All I can say is to tell her you love her, but I’m sure you're doing that already. I just wanted to join my voice to those expressing care.

[Dannigirl]

Hi, I agree with Char. This is some big news that you have sprung on her, once again, you've known for a long time and like most of us at first you were confused and wondering about your own actions. It is only natural that she will need some time to digest and mull things over. Work over all the different scenarios in her head and figure things out for herself (most of us haven't figured ourselves out). Give it time and hopefully she will come around, it might be a long time.

[Dutchess]

I agree with Char and Dannigirl also .
I know that some of you wont see it this way but to find something like that out really does feel like you have died . You hear about crying , acting out , all kinds of things here because it feels like you are dead when you just suddenly find this out after alot of years .

I understand she wants you to see therapist that will make you stop because right now thats all she can think of but I think it will eventually come down to her wanting you to see a therapist that doesn't tell you only what you want to hear . Too many "gender" counselor people do that ( My SO was the victim of one ) and I have seen more than one person here really get burned by that .
This is really a huge thing . She may take years to finally get where she is comfortable with all this .

[Paulie Birmingham]

I understand she wants you to see therapist that will make you stop because right now thats all she can think of but I think it will eventually come down to her wanting you to see a therapist that doesn't tell you only what you want to hear . Too many "gender" counselor people do that ( My SO was the victim of one ) and I have seen more than one person here really get burned by that .
This is really a huge thing . .

After reading over 100 people's experiences with gender counselors on this site and others, I completely agree. Never once have I read that " I went to a counselor specializing in gender and decided to dress less, etc. "

I suppose part of reason is apa no longer considers it something that needs to be changed or whatever. Not sure how it would go with someone who doesn't specialize in gender issues. Maybe same. Maybe different

[DianeT]

Your wife is in shock and her reaction seems normal. She lost her husband and is grieving (really). Asking you to find a therapist that will make you quit is the bargaining stage in the Kubler-Ross model. She will probably go through different phases, that his her way to deal with the blow. Do not despair. If she gets angry do not respond with anger (easier said than done, been there). Be there for her and don't give up. You did the right thing, but the road ahead may not be easy (11 months in for my wife and I in that same situation and there's still a lot to work on). Be patient and be loving.

[Dutchess]

After reading over 100 people's experiences with gender counselors on this site and others, I completely agree. Never once have I read that " I went to a counselor specializing in gender and decided to dress less, etc.

We have a member here now whos gone away on yet another sabbatical to think about things after a gender counselor told him everything he wanted to hear instead of what he NEEDED To hear . Now he is upset , marriage ruined and he said ,"I was one who needed to hear the brutal honest truth ". Th medical community needs to learn more about Pink Fog before they just nod yes to everything a person says .

Nothing at all wrong with dressing but some people just go to such dramatic extremes . My SO would just leave feeling so triumphant after he would tell her only want he wanted her to hear ..... not the whole thing and it just really alienated me . I knew everything - not just what he wanted me to hear . Some of it was wildly inaccurate - like claiming to have missing/misshapen body parts etc - which she totally believed .. so yeah , I wanted him to see a different counselor also !!

We never know because we aren't there but I can see how she might want him to see someone else , if even for a second opinion on what they think . Not for stopping it but to be able to manage together and not apart .

[Teresa]

Paulie,
It only needs changing if it's wrong and who makes that final decision ?

No you won't see evidence of counsellors suggesting their client should dress less , people usually seek help to deal with it so most will continue and possibly dress more . I have no regrets in seeking counselling help , I'm in a much better place now , that is the bottom line , I discovered how to comfortably live with being TG .

[Stephanie47]

Before putting my two cents in I went to some of your old posts. I particularly surprised by your post of February 2019. In that post you gave an outline of the near relatives around you. I cannot understand how you are able to put up with such anti everyone who is not like me people....including offspring. I don't see a chance in hell your wife is going to ever understand you, because she does not want to understand. You live in a toxic environment. Your wife is surrounded by her support group. Given your age and headed off to retirement in the next decade, please be aware your life is going to be a living hell. You may want to explore this toxic environment with your counselor.

[Brandi Christine]

Before putting my two cents in I went to some of your old posts. I particularly surprised by your post of February 2019. In that post you gave an outline of the near relatives around you. I cannot understand how you are able to put up with such anti everyone who is not like me people....including offspring. I don't see a chance in hell your wife is going to ever understand you, because she does not want to understand. You live in a toxic environment. Your wife is surrounded by her support group. Given your age and headed off to retirement in the next decade, please be aware your life is going to be a living hell. You may want to explore this toxic environment with your counselor.

One of the things that truly frightened me is her reaction, she is very anti-trans, but I was surprised, she may never fully come around but right now we are talking, and yes I think it will be a long journey. We have both agreed to keep it between ourselves for now, if we did tell them, I think my step-daughter would accept me, my step son would not... I think not knowing anyone like us, and hearing what I have gone through has softened her stance. Too much of our exposure in the media is salacious, demeaning or just hurtful, and we are seen as a caricature, she knows now that we are people, most of us are not voluntarily what we are, we didn't ask to be what we are. But we are who we are...

I am afraid of what my future holds, but for all it's worth I want her in it.

- - - Updated - - -


Paulie,
It only needs changing if it's wrong and who makes that final decision ?

No you won't see evidence of counsellors suggesting their client should dress less , people usually seek help to deal with it so most will continue and possibly dress more . I have no regrets in seeking counselling help , I'm in a much better place now , that is the bottom line , I discovered how to comfortably live with being TG .

Teresa,

You are one of many who I look up to in this forum, and your statement scares me, there are times I feel so much the pull, I feel so happy when en-femme, my therapist allowed me to accept myself, not have my self or think of myself as a deviant.

I have to ask myself, am I making a mistake? Would I be happier in the long run knowing it would cost me my family? Even dressing will be a problem, at least in the near term. How will I handle it???

[JIJI Xx]

WOW! . My first marriage Joyce was not know of for many years into the marriage until I was caught.

I have no similar experience to Brandi's (and, it seems, many others) but..... your point, Joyce, touches on what I have often thought is the crux.

it's not necessarily even about the crossdressing.... but if a husband suddenly reveals some hidden life, that may have been going on for years and years, the main shock may well be that the person the wife thought she knew, is not that person at all, has been living a lie, doesn't exist..... whether it's crossdressing, or cottaging, or S & M, or secret gambling, affairs, whatever, discovering that your SO has been hiding themself from you, is a hell of a thing to deal with.....

just by way of context with regard to my opener above about my 'experience'.... I was in a serious, longterm relationship, though we weren't married. when I first started finding myself 'interested', bought my first garter-belt, then stockings, shoes, and so on and so forth, it never occurred to me to try to hide it, because it felt so natural, and anyway I'm not into hiding, having spent 60-odd years just trying to be me. Miwako never said anything negative, seemed to just accept me as me, but.... a couple of years later, and without preamble, she left, no reason given, other than "you've got your new life now". it took a long time to get over that (more or less), but in any case I can't not be me.....

- - - Updated - - -


Living a truth is better than trying to live a lie and hoping you don't get caught.

absolutely!!!! living a lie is being unfair to two people.....

[TheHiddenMe]

I'm going to read between the lines.

It's not about dressing, it's about gender dysphoria.


Given these circumstances, there is no middle ground, no compromise.

I strongly suggest that you continue seeing your therapist, as it appears, based on your comments, is helping you deal with your gender dysphoria.

Unfortunately, none of us can give to advice as what the right decision for YOU is. Only YOU--working with a therapist--can decide whether your self-identify as a woman or your relationship with your wife and family is more important to your long-term mental wellbeing. Based on the facts you have described, it's either going to be one or the other.

[alwayshave]

Brandi, I hope that your wife comes around. I told my wife before we moved in together so it has worked out OK for me. She was able to read some positive information on crossdressing, so was OK with it.