Wanting only the best parts of female 'privilege'

[phili]

I have been working hard to just let myself be a woman [social definition- not biological] and follow my inner impulses. As many of you know, I gave up on trying to look female and just look as feminine as a 70 yr old male can. But- I feel it as much as any teen girl or mature woman, and so I discovered at several points how I started to feel restricted as a woman, in sort of a reverse of being restricted as a man. The gender norms are kind of a division of labor and sets of privileges, and it is an uneasy bargain that males tend to get the better deal with and keep women down.

So when a female woman sees me verging into her area of society by wearing 'women's" clothes that are nice and having a day out, I am clearly playing dressup and cherry picking the presumed 'best of times-. But they understand just how much more there is to being a woman, from their own biology [ok- I said social definition- but most people, like my wife, still feel their biology and their norms are linked], to the work involved in dressing up and grooming for performing 'woman's day out' , and it is meant to be their assigned reward- something they rarely actually get to do, and it is meant to counter the suppression and burdens they have had since being little girls and told they can't climb trees or get muddy or whatever. I sometimes think that the attention getting for looking good is meant to be intense, so it can counter a lot of less good experiences we also lay on them- like not taking their opinions seriously.

So I am specially appreciative of the generous spirit of females who are willing to support me in my foray into these pleasures- knowing that I am a tourist in a way. I do think some feel that my freedom means they are also now free to be perfectly expansive around me- that I won't be enforcing norms on them. It is a break from the guarded tension they feel around men who are either bullies or predatory. At the same time, they no longer see me displaying cave man signals so they aren't sure of my status as protector until I signal it in conversation.

My wife says she feels I am competing with her, and that is an example of the backstory behind what we see. Females learn to wear skirts and dresses as a way of showcasing their prowess as females, to each other and to men. But when they see me, it is a little awkward bc I am now behind the curtain- and their first thought is who am I competing with them for? The male lesbian concept is not one that comes to mind except for bi women.

I feel that women who want to be more liberated are generally tolerant. After all it is still a drag show in their eyes, but not campy or exaggerated, so kind of a social protest. More young women are actively appreciative, I think bc they still believe life is supposed to be good for us all, and free thinking appeals.

So many others seem to feel that life is just hard enough and my protest is pointless, I think. They have found a way to live with the imposed 'natural order' and would just as soon I did too.

Does anyone else see these same dynamics? How has it played out in your SOs acceptance or lack of acceptance?

But my main point is that so much of the tension over going out is founded in deep social bargains.

[Robertacd]

Huh? I am not sure if I am following your argument...

I don't think very many GG's see us as any sort of competition.

But My wife and I have talked about how there's things that I being raised male didn't get drilled into me. Like being "submissive" for lack of a better word. GG's are kinda taught to not be assertive, to let "the man" lead, etc. She said even the way I move through a crowd is not like a GG.

[Asew]

My wife has seen at one time as a competition in a way. But it is more like that I was wearing things I wanted her to wear and she either didn't want to (dresses and skirts) or things she couldn't wear (heels for medical reasons). So that perhaps my dressing was really because she wasn't good enough. And she went on a dress buying shopping spree and wears dresses way more now. Every once in a while she used to ask if she just dressed more like what I liked could I stop dressing. And my response was that it would be nice but it wouldn't work long term so don't wear anything because of me.

How can we steal the best parts of female 'privilege' by losing cis-privilege? Overall it is a net loss. I don't think women hold the ability to wear cute outfits as a privilege as a compromise for the lack of male privilege. In particular many women see the feminine items like skirts/dresses/heels as part of the shackles holding them down which is why a growing number of women barely wear them any more except for special occasions.

[darla_g]

My wife have had conversations along this line. She has stated that some women if they're not comfortable with their self or their sexuality they may feel threatened in the relationship. They want to be the "Female in the relationship" and having a CD there threatens them. Sometimes it is a matter of very traditional upbringing. It really doesn't matter, there can be a bunch of reasons.

The bottom line is that every CD will end up having the "talk" with their spouse. Do they really want to become a Woman? , Does this mean you like men now?? I think most CDs can fill in other questions here.

[Miss Melissa]

I think that's a brilliant post, phili. I couldn't agree more with everything you say.

[Teresa]

Phili,
My wife did accuse me of competeing with her when I cooked the Xmas meal for my daughter and her family but it wasn't based on what I wore but more to do with actually replacing her in her female role as a mother .

I do feel you are making the point from just what clothes you wear , as I've been told heatedly by other members on occasions " It's not all about the clothes !". I posted a thread titled " It's totally possible " where I proved to myself wearing women's work clothes with a liitle makeup and my wig it's possible to jobs I would normally prefer to do in male mode .

I feel your problem still revolves round your wife's acceptance and possibly concerns about what other people think , going full time removes those problems , I certainly don't feel I'm out there to compete with women and on the whole I don't feel I'm seen as competition or perhaps a threat . If people are comfortable with what they see , there is no tension , if a seventy year old wants to look like a tenage girl then maybe it might raise a few eyebrows and awkwardness .

I also don't really see either gender exhibiting a privilege now , I'm not taking the best bits I'm dealing with my dysphoria the best way I can .

Darla,
That is usually the obvious question but I'm no more interested in men as Teresa as I was in male mode , I can't help it if that's what some people choose to think . I do feel you have a point about women feeling we're competition if they lack confidence as a woman .

[Kelly DeWinter]

Social norms are not static, but evolve and change as society changes . Usually at the speed of the fastest communications. Prior to the 5th Century Women and Men both wore skirts, aprons and tunic skirt combinations. Around the 8th century in western culture men began wearing pantaloons and such along gender lines. Although in Eastern and other cultures skirts were still the norm. Fast forward to 18th to 20th century and pants were split almost exclusively by men until the latter 20th century when women began wearing pants. in the early 21st century we see a resurgence of men wearing skirts.

I'm not i see your point of "Females learn to wear skirts and dresses as a way of showcasing their prowess as females", I think it's more a result of advertisers and popular culture have for years showcased a strict delineation of who wears what.

It will be interesting to see where the next 200 years lead to fashion wise, I expect western society will become more poly androgeness where fashion is concerned.

We can probably hasten it as a group by making every day of the week a wear what you want to work day.

[CD Rachel]

Phili,

An interesting line of thought. I remember the first time I came out to my wife (15 or more years ago?) She rejected idea of me cross dressing in a very aggressive manner. I remember her saying something along the line of "I want to be the girl" Just the way she said it made me feel like i had violated her secret territory???

Rachel

[docrobbysherry]

Phili, interesting post except for the heading. I read very little "female priviledge" in it!:straightface:

My college girlfriend and I kept in touch and often met for 30 years. Until Sherry showed up. After a few months of seeing and hearing about her, my old girlfriend disappeared! Of course, Sherry is shapelier and 25+ years younger than her! So, maybe she had a rite to be jealous?:heehee:

As far as younger women accepting trans? My daughter's r in their 20's and 30's. They've both told of multiple cases of strange acting and appearing males and females that they grew up with. It isn't that they're that open minded. It's just that they're more used to gay and trans folks than our generations r!:thumbsup:

[phili]

Thanks for the feedback so far! All good points.

Teresa, I accept your kind caring and I can tell my philosophical treatises ring through for you as me struggling with my wife, and certainly that is true. I am also an academic theorizer and practical synthesizer at heart, so I would be analyzing the dynamics of gender variance no matter how happy and accepted I was. In fact, I basically feel very accepted- thanks to my local college classes. I really found complete ease there as a mirl, middle-aged appearing though I am actually 70.

I really appreciate the contrary POV on privilege. The fun things so many of us talk about [cute sensual clothes and space and time to enjoy feeling like women in various ways from casual to sexual] seem so basic as human pleasures that as a teen I concluded they are privileges and understood that way by females. I saw it as a social bargain, and actually I think many females did see it that way, based on comments.

Simply put, as a boy I had more freedom and girls got to be emotional and pretty. I had to go to war and get killed, and they had to do all the housework. I had to set aside feelings and make sure the family was safe and they got to be nurturing and emotional. I know that this is not universal, but it certainly was my world.

However, I also see that has changed- women's liberation has thoroughly penetrated the culture, and dress wearing and even the fashion runway seem very out of date, and women feeling like they have to excuse/explain why they are wearing dresses. Those that do seem very clearly to want to enjoy the same things we want to enjoy- and it is a kind of tragedy that it is going away, but I am enjoying while it lasts.

[Teresa]

Phili,
I see the situation more from the number of single parents male and female having to adopt and adapt to gender roles not always associated with them .

I also agree we both come from a generation where gender was more defined , I also can see where little girls appeared to have all the fun by dressing and doing things some boys were exempted from . I'm probably right in saying you also feel it's a wasted opportunity today for the modern female , I do sometimes wonder if some women miss the lack of those choices . I can't help asking the basic question , what is wrong with being FEMININE ? It feels like modern society has taken that choice away , is it a privilege also being denied to some women ?

[phili]

Hi Teresa,
Yes to all of that. In our generation females had to learn to adapt and make the most of their role as best they could, as we did. And for the lucky ones, at least the occasional privilege to be safely vulnerable while enjoying the freedom of joyousness in their expression. I think that is the inexorable draw for me- the liberation of my emotional self. I can hardly believe my good fortune in being able to experience total freedom to be emotionally expressive [in a normal way] and to be able to enjoy the comfort and style and swish of a dress as the way I am known in the world [outside the house, obviously and unfortunately- but I'll take it!]

When I am femme all day, though, I may find my masculine directness and object orientation bubbling up so I can focus on getting something done, not diluting my attention and eating up psychological space with delighting in my feminine pleasures. I think- oh this is what women feel when they are trying to maintain their identity as women, but none of them really have anything to do with moving that rock.

I think females do recognize that there is huge diversity among them in every respect, so they understand me in that context- I am grooming myself as a woman might who is rather male looking- but their generosity of spirit allows them to say- well- you are entitled to share in that task! And they know that task inside and out. And that task has different meanings for different women. My wife and others feel that it is their badge for a defined social role as wife and housemother and commentator, etc. And for me to dress in a way that suggests I am horning in on the woman's world is a form of illegal immigration! They want a wall.

Many men continuously reaffirm their masculinity to each other, and to female women. My wife expects that from me. She listens to the rhythm of my steps in the hall, and expects them to be clumpy, not light. She expects my torso to be stolid, not sinuous, etc. She expects me to be attentive, and to expect respect, but not to desire attention. That keeps her world view and habits intact and, in her mind, safer than the alternatives.

[Vickie_CDTV]

I am an ugly person, and I am not "competition" to anyone, much less a GG. I never even thought such a thing. I just wear fancier clothes than most women choose to wear. Nothing is stopping them from wearing skirts and nylons and heels too if they wish. I am not attracted to men, and they are definitely not attracted to me, so no competition there either.

Young women may be tolerant of gender diversity than older women, but they are no more attracted to feminine/passive men than older women are. Women still expect men to stay in their traditional gender roles if they are to be potential partners.

[Cheryl T]

My wife told me she thought I was competing with her from the outset.
I explained this is for me not to compete with you but she was adamant about it saying this is what women do. From the very beginning of puberty women compete with each other for peer approval, for partners, to look better than their girlfriends. She said it's just natural. I suppose it's the same for men, but they just don't notice it the same way.
Even now nearly 20 years after I came out to her and we initially discussed this it still appears. She ordered a few dresses for summer and when they arrived she tried them on. She was disappointed in the way she looked in one and said "here, you try it on". Then she stood there with this look and when I asked what was wrong she said, "you look better in it than I do". It's still a competition of sorts and most likely always will be. That's just the way it is.

[PetiteDuality]

I'm not out, but sometimes I shave my legs. My wife is ok with it now, but she didn't like it at the beginning. She thought she would be pressured to be spotless.

Not at all! But that's how sometimes ladies read our feminine side.

[Teresa]

Cheryl,
I must admit it is a problem with my wife but she's never going to admit it , she may to another woman but not to a TG husband .

I guess it does pose the question when you buy something new and you wonder how good you will look but how good , are we really competing ?

[Stephanie47]

"I gave up on trying to look female and just look as feminine as a 70 year old can be."

I found that statement to be rather perplexing. There are physical attributes a female possesses by virtue of her dna; breasts, hips, etc. There are other attributes which are dependent upon a woman choosing to express herself; hair style, clothing, makeup. The vast majority of cross dressing men seem to want to mimic the physicality of women. Hence, the breast and hip enhancements. The wig. The makeup. In the eyes of women, not men, does that make the man feminine? If a man chooses to just wear the clothing currently sold to women, and not don the body enhancements, does that make the man look feminine to the observer? Or, does that confuse the observer? I always thought "feminine" was more of an expression of a woman's self. I related many times on this forum of seeing a young female with long hair and wearing all the vestments of a construction worker driving and operating a cement mixer; steel toed boots, hardhat, flannel shirt, jeans. She had a big smile on her face which was not directed to an observer. It was herself. Happy. I,as the viewer, thought she looked very feminine. Very feminine. It was NOT the clothes. It was how she carried herself. There enters the male observer. How would another woman observe her? I do not know as I am not woman. What would the observer think if that cement truck operator were a man standing there in a dress with unshaven face, hairy arms and legs? I do not believe any man or woman would view him as feminine, but, rather projecting confusion.

When my wife and I had "The Talk" which was long before the internet was here I tried to express my feelings with the line of trying to "express my feminine side." That did not work well at all. She retorted "When you can have a baby tell me about your feminine side!" That really sunk in. Can I really proclaim I have a feminine side? Of course, my physical appearance out and about in the world will give the reality of my genetic sex as a male, i.e., I do not pass! I have seen others who I am sure do pass. Personally, if anyone were to ask me now, "Why do you try to emulate a woman?" I would say "I do not know why I do what I do!" I can say how I feel. The process relieves stress. I love the colors, etc. But, I cannot claim femininity, only the attempt to outwardly look like a female. My wife proclaimed, "If I wanted to marry a woman I would have married a woman!" not a man pretending to be a woman.

My wife does not feel certain tasks fall within the domain of a man or a woman. Feel free to push the vacuum. Cook. Bake, Clean the bathrooms (ugh). She mows the lawn. She states whenever one calls her a housewife, that she is NOT married to a house. If I were to suddenly appear to my female friends wearing a dress and heels they would think I had flipped my lid. I would not appear as a threat to their femininity or womanhood. They would probably ask my wife, "What happened?" They would want to assured I am not unbalanced. Maybe, over a period of time they would dismiss my attire as non-threatening to them, physically. The word feminine would not enter the equation.

None of this has anything to do with a transsexual. My wife and other women who I associate with do accept the premise there can be a genetic mismatch between mind and body.

[Jodie_Lynn]

My wife told me she thought I was competing with her from the outset.
I explained this is for me not to compete with you but she was adamant about it saying this is what women do. From the very beginning of puberty women compete with each other for peer approval, for partners, to look better than their girlfriends. She said it's just natural. I suppose it's the same for men, but they just don't notice it the same way.


What your wife said is true: women compete against each other, and men compete against each other as well. It's just that the form of competition is different for both genders.

Men tend to display macho "alpha" traits and will try to 'dominate' their peers with income, cars, or physical prowess and strength. They will publicly ridicule each other for their failings, especially in front of a female audience.

Women, generally speaking, are far more subtle, sly and insidious, from my experience. Especially, if two women are interested in the same guy. Machiavelli could take notes....

As for the concept of "female privilege", I'm not sure what the OP is driving at. Women still make less money than their male counterparts doing the same job. Women are still treated as second class citizens, their opinions disregarded, they are continually talked over, "mansplained to", and generally treated as precocious and amusing 'pets' by a patriarchal society.



And the OP, in my opinion, is spreading the patriarchal BS by stating that a "Girls Day Out" is some kind of "reward" for good behaviour!

I have been living, 24/7, as a woman since March of this year. I've found a job with an employer who accepts me as the person I present as. My co-workers have accepted me, and I've experienced some 'privileges' of being female. Men have helped me, thinking I was physically challenged by the task at hand; a male colleague intervened when I was confronted by a belligerent customer, placing himself between the customer and me. A female colleague dragged me into the Ladies room, in order to give me a bag of cosmetic goodies she had! Never used, she thought they were "too young" for her!

I have had men explain to me aspects of my job that I have TAUGHT to others, in other jobs! And I've seen the confused look on their face when I point out where they were wrong. I had one gau say "you're pretty smart about this", the unspoken part being "... for a girl."

Then, there is the flip side.... "female restrictions". Not feeling safe at certain times, in certain areas.

Last night, 10/14/20, I attended a town hall meeting. When it ended, it was totally dark, and I realized my car was parked in an isolated area. I stood by the entrance of the venue for a few minutes, hoping someone else was heading in the direction I needed to go. No luck. I was dressed in court shoes ( 3" heels ), a skirt ( pencil, to my knees ), and blouse. Now, I'm sure many of you are competent in your ability to defend yourselves, BUT, ever consider having to fight while en femme?

After a few moments, a Sheriff's Deputy approached and asked if everything was OK. I explained my dilemma and asked if he would keep an eye out. He did better... he escorted me to my car, and wished me a safe night. I'm 100% certain he knew I wasn't a GG, but he treated me like one.


So, what in holy hell is "the best part of female privilege?"

[Helen_Highwater]

Phil,

Some of the scenarios you describe possibly had greater relevance some decades ago and while not totally changed society has altered in how womenn are judged. It does remain a truism that females are the ones expected to be more flamboyant, dressy, showy, in their appearance. We know this from the vast difference in choice women have in clothing compared to men's attire. How many men have the bottom of their wardrobe covered in shoes?

What were once solely male dominated jobs are now adding women to the ranks. True it's not a flood but it's happening. Countries around the world either have or have had women in the top political post. The UK has had two female Prime Ministers.

I think that what is sometimes referred to as male privilege should actually be referred to as male bullying. The "lads" using their physical size to intimidate the women in their lives. Men getting jobs over women isn't the reason there are women's refuges. Women don't campaign for safe areas because of a perceived glass ceiling. They're there because of physical violence and not some actual privilege although some males may think they're superior and justified in their actions.

When any of us go out dressed we enter the female world and it's a foolish CD'er who doesn't take personal safety seriously. We not only know just how much effort goes into getting ready to go out but also that there are knuckle dragging morons out their who think might is right. We're allies to women not competitors. We understand at least in part what they experience and are far from looking for the best of both worlds.

[ReineD]

To those of you who say that your wives think you are competing with them (several of you have written this), can you tell me what you think they mean? Or can you ask your wives directly what they think you are competing for, in other words, what is the prize for the winner of the competition.

If your wives say it is a competition to be the prettiest, or most attractive, or sexiest, then ask yourselves why some women think they want to be the prettiest, most attractive, or sexiest. After all, these are not qualities that help to attain major life goals such as career advancement, or realizing personal goals such as getting in shape, achieving artistic merit, mastering a new skill, etc, or establishing close and loving relationships with family, children or friends.

But I can tell you why some (not all) women think they want to be the prettiest, or most attractive, or the sexiest (which applies to younger women more than mature ones). Fundamentally, it is a competition for men - whether to get a new one, or to keep the current one if he has a roving eye. Or simply to please the current one. :)

So if your wives say that you are competing with them, then what do you think they subconsciously feel about your sexual interests. Do they think that you are competing with them (or women in general) for men’s attention and if so, what does this say about the sexual relationships you have with your wives.

Just sayin’ :p

[char GG]

I can relate to this. This is exactly how my ex-wife felt whenever I wanted to dress in the bedroom. She wanted to be the "desired one", the "pretty one", the "sexy one" etc. She was clearly threatened by my use of traditionally female "temptress signals" like heels, stockings, garter belts etc.

My thought would be that your ex just wasn't attracted to "women". A female "temptress" in the bedroom would probably turn off some wives.

[Stephanie47]

But I can tell you why some (not all) women think they want to be the prettiest, or most attractive, or the sexiest (which applies to younger women more than mature ones). Fundamentally, it is a competition for men - whether to get a new one, or to keep the current one if he has a roving eye. Or simply to please the current one.

My wife made a comment once attributed to one of her female friends. She discovered her husband was gay. She said, "If I had to compete with another woman I could do that. But, how to I compete with a gay man for my husband?"

IMHO, I don't think many women are going to enter a competition with the "female" side of their husbands just because he wants to get all dolled up and sit on the couch and watch "chick flicks."

[Dutchess]

i have never ever ever felt a cder as a threat or any kind of competition . I wear alot of dresses but is mainly because i have had so much abdominal surgery that pants hurt alot , I also dress mainly like Stevie( since 1977) or other major hippy gypsy wear because of who I am . I could care less what others think .

Now I have mentioned porn before and with my ex husband I wasn't threatened but turned off . This was used to replace me and I knew I could not compete with those folks in the videos that were female on top and male on the bottom so I just finally checked out . That was too complicated and I have better things to do with my life than compete with that , plenty of guys that would like just a regular cis girl .

Kat however as you all know made me feel like a total goddess and s/he was totally out and only sometimes would dress very androgynous , so I dont know what was so different but something was , I think it was in the attitude and what and WHO they were thinking about .

My ex husband was thinking only about himself , Kat thought about me .

[ReineD]

My sense is that she just couldn't wrap her head around sharing her "female domain" in any way.

Words like "female domain" are just so vague! Can you be more precise? I can tell you what I consider is a "domain" that is strictly female: the ability to give birth and lactate. Anything other than that is totally fair game for both sexes! Feel a need to dominate or be passive in bed? Both men and women can feel either of these needs, just look at the BDSM community. Feel a need to protect loved ones? Both men and women feel this, just look at how a mother protects yer young. Feel a need to compete with others to get ahead or "win"? Again, both men and women feel this, just look at female entrepreneurs, female sports figures, female career professionals, etc.

But if to you "female domain" means a need or desire to attract men, then in the cis world this is indeed a "female domain", just as a need or desire to attract women is strictly a "male domain" (in the cis world). This doesn?t apply to same-sex attracted people, obviously. And so I understand if your wife felt frustrated because she perceived that you desired to be female more than you desired her. Every woman wants to feel as if her partner desires her more than anyone or anything else. So this is not wanting to retain one?s "female domain" as much as wanting sexual attraction to be mutual with one?s partner, with nothing else getting in the way.


It was more like she couldn't perform the gestalt shift needed. My cross-dressing desires just could not fit into her models of male and female roles and interactions.

What perception or belief of hers needed to shift? That you were a woman? She probably didn?t see you that way. There are indeed wives who dislike the crossdressing, but it?s not because of any firm ideas of what male or female roles should be (because we really don?t have firm male or female roles anymore, not like in the 1950s, if you consider modern career options, modern sharing of household chores, etc). So these wives dislike the crossdressing because they don?t want other things taking away their husband?s attention or attraction to the wife.

I suppose some wives also don't like the crossdressing because they don't like the negative fallout (like being at the receiving end of gossip or being ostracized by some people) because we do live in a society that is largely intolerant of men who present like females. But, even some crossdressers don't like that either, which is why so many choose to keep the crossdressing private from family and friends.

[Micki_Finn]

All I can say is that I disagree with practically everything.

[Vickie_CDTV]

If your wives say it is a competition to be the prettiest, or most attractive, or sexiest, then ask yourselves why some women think they want to be the prettiest, most attractive, or sexiest. After all, these are not qualities that help to attain major life goals such as career advancement, or realizing personal goals such as getting in shape, achieving artistic merit, mastering a new skill, etc, or establishing close and loving relationships with family, children or friends.


People who are attractive are more likely to advance in their career and make more money then those who are less attractive, especially women. Right or wrong, it is human nature and the way it is. Can't say, as an ugly person, I am happy about it but I can't change human nature either.

[char GG]

I also believe this is a myth, Vicki. For the last 20 years of my working career, I worked in a predominantly female company. Sure, there were plenty of men employed in the company but even the CEO was a female. If there were a "pretty" female who didn't have the brains or guts to do a good job, she was out. All of our female (and male) leaders are extremely smart and qualified. Most of the female leaders are middle age - plus some.

Your idea of, "People who are attractive are more likely to advance in their career and make more money" may be true in some sectors but in my working career, I have not seen it. In fact, from what I have witnessed, an attractive person (man or woman) had to prove their worth, just like everyone else.

[DianeT]

I think too that brains and a bit of charisma will take you anywhere. Beauty will get you exploited, mostly. There once was a question from a CDer in an old Ask-the-GGs thread about what it was like to be a beautiful woman. One of the GGs answered about a friend of hers who was considered beautiful. If I remember it well, the bottom line was that no one took her seriously and she had to prove her worth twice as much as the other women.

[Teresa]

Reine,
To answer some of your points in your reply #22.

My wife didn't like the idea of role reversal , obvioulsy I didn't see it like that , she was working and didn't have time to cook , clean etc . The fact I didn't mind possibly made her feel slightly guilty , also she was seeing role reversal obviously knowing I was dressing some of the time when she was out .

There is also the sexual angle , I appreciate women are going to be confused , why would some of us want to dress as women if we didn't want to attract a man ? So if it suggest we might want to attract a woman she is going to be offended suggesting she is a lesbian . I don't want to sidetrack this thread too far but that is the point when counselling possibly needs to happen , the male needs to find some answers the wife needs to find the meanings behind the labels being used .

I also know my wife had a problem with her older sister , the competition was an uphill struggle for her , so personally I can see her point of view when her trusty husband decides he needs to appear as a woman , when I gave her so much as a man .

[SaraLin]

just throwing this out there...

I haven't noticed this thought yet, but I can see where the wife could feel she's competing with the "other woman" (him, dressed).
Not only could she fear losing her man to "her", but how on earth can she win this fight - and keep the MAN she fell in love with?
It's got to be terrifying.

[phili]

This rousing discussion is really a nice study in the diversity with which each of us experiences and feels the many layers of gender in society. I think I share most of Natasha's POV, and feel like we would see things very similarly around us- enough to go out for lunch downtown, or in a strip mall cafe, feel comfortable with ourselves and the reactions of others to us. And I am left feeling more relaxed about the storms of protest I get some times over my views.

I like the Forum because it is like a living personal journal, with the benefit of random commentators peering over my shoulder. I habitually tend to universalize my own experience, but this is obviously wrong and I am grateful for learning [slowly] to understand that there is no harmonious common understanding, except that we all are trying to deal with a jagged series of environmental cues from people we know and from social and cultural platforms, interacting with the dynamic dialog with body feelings, dream, unresolved conflicts, ...whew!

I understood already that females do not all see the sensual delights of dresses and lingerie, or the lightness of their walk, as particularly a privilege. I saw it that way, but this is an artifact, I see, of my upbringing in the 50s with its highly structured gender roles and idealizations. That is now out of date, and Reine's perspective was very clear and helpful to me. I still carry the childhood gender training as a bondage I am struggling with- and that is the core driver of my angst, Teresa!

As part of my bid for freedom, I distinguish now between female and feminine. Reine makes the case that there is no universal 'feminine' besides the province of female sexuality. I interpret it as just being able to wear a swishy dress and special underthings, and be able to be relaxed and receptive, or perky and chatty, and NOT tense and having to display manhood signals to ward off men from nearby women. on guard, ready to fight. That on its face seems like it could be resolved by just not being that kind of man. That so far doesn't feel like the right solution. I believe now that the reason is that I have some kind of transsexual residual and I literally feel a female-like sexuality. Without being too graphic, not having pendant genitals makes a huge change in my sense of myself- restoring a feeling of centeredness and peace.

It may not be biological, and it may still be some infantile psychological choice as an infant, but so far that works the best to leave me feeling that I am a male girl, essentially- who is generally a competent tomboy but also wants to be able to at least 50% of the time be 'the desired one'. I am bisexual, which means that a person of any sex could desire me and I would not consider their plumbing.

That said, few will desire me, but the really nice thing I found is that finally being myself with others in a genuine way is very satisfying, so if others don't desire me sexually that doesn't feel like a problem as much as a fact, like the weather. My wife does not desire me, which is a problem, but is really moot since there are other major longstanding personal difficulties at play. She actually thought first that depriving me of sex led to my crossdressing. But she subscribes to the domain theory, and also feels the more personal bits of jealousy and competition and worry about gossip, etc.

I don't amplify my breasts or hips or hair, and I have a trimmed small gray beard. But I do like to wear blouses that conform to my breasts and with style lines that frame them, and to wear skirts and shorts that flare so as to counter the underlying male shape. I don't want my maleness to lead in my messaging. It can be 50%, and that seems to work well, either with dresses that are full skirted but not hyperfeminine with bows and frills, or feminine tops and regular pants or shorts. I am married, I am not dating or advertising for dates. I feel I am communicating 'feminine' in the sense of sharing the domain normally occupied by females, with respect to public appearance and general attitude.
As an example, you could expect me to be gentle and politely disengage if you were rude or pushy, rather than bulking up my shoulders and hardening my eyes and jaw to indicate I have the capacity for violence. I do have the fact of maleness as a backdrop, so I am not a clearly vulnerable target for a predator.

I am not flirting, I am just being, and it seems to work. I think I give people the correct impression that gender roles are many stranded, and there really is, based on seeing me, no particular reason to insist that males not enjoy feminine memes.

[ReineD]

People who are attractive are more likely to advance in their career and make more money then those who are less attractive, especially women. Right or wrong, it is human nature and the way it is.

Echo Char.

Nonsense. Here's a list of just some powerful women. They run the gamut from ordinary to attractive, just as in the general population, keeping in mind the practice of publishing the most advantageous photos - as many crossdressers do here. Physical beauty is not a bigger predictor of success than intelligence, expertise, confidence, drive, and discipline, no matter what internet "opinion" and clickbait say. :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes_list_of_The_World%27s_100_Most_Powerful_Wom en

But, this is off topic. The point that I picked up on as part of this thread was crossdressers who say their wives feel threatened because they reportedly view the the crossdressing as a competition - which has been rather a popular sentiment among some crossdressers in this forum over the years. And my question was, "competition for what, exactly". I also argued against the notion that wives feel there is a competition between themselves and their crossdressing husbands.

[tooshytogoout]

...Of course, Sherry is shapelier and 25+ years younger than her! So, maybe she had a rite to be jealous? ...

I'm a bit gobsmacked over this comment. "Sherry," as you refer to your suit and a mask, is inanimate and effectively a costume. No woman is jealous of a costume, if they were, they could wear the same costume!


.... So when a female woman sees me verging into her area of society by wearing 'women's" clothes that are nice and having a day out, I am clearly playing dressup and cherry picking the presumed 'best of times-. ...

What privilege do women have? That they get to earn less money? Have to fear walking at night or alone? That they have to be the primary care giver? Women have zero privilege, that's reserved for white men. There's a lot of words here, but basically I see you saying that wearing a dress or skirt is a privilege. It's not. It's clothing. But even that shows what privilege they DO NOT have. How can little girls crawl on play in a dress like the boys in jeans on the playground? They can't. You are a crossdresser and wishes it were more socially acceptable to be dressed as a woman so you are jealous of that. That's fine, but admit what it is.

and this whole "competing" thing, I don't buy in to that at all. Women are not jealous of men dressed as women. Single, married, or otherwise. Someone is misunderstanding the message.

[AngelaYVR]

Ah, life in the playground! Boys are better than girls, girls are better than boys!
Apparently to contribute to this thread you need to put your blinkers on and assert the world is how you WANT it to be. If anyone thinks that the average man and woman don’t have little mental cubicles for what is manly and what is womanly then they are just being obtuse. Saying that you’re “only” competing with a woman with regard to dressing attractively is like saying you’re competing with Usain Bolt “only” in the 100m!!

[DianeT]

Ah, life in the playground!
I see what you mean. Like these persons jumping late in the discussion and dispensing snide remarks for their own narcissistic pleasure, without contributing a bit to the discussion. Some people.

[phili]

To return to the subject of privilege- we speak of male privilege, but are more inclined to speak of female lack of privilege/oppression, as this view of the social context is popular right now. However, I think privilege really means anything we do that no one objects to strongly or prevents us from doing. Normally it refers to something that can be seen as desirable and that others are excluded from enjoying. Specific example would be that men often exercise the privilege of speaking over women, and women often exercise the privilege of taking charge and asserting authority in matters of emotional soothing. Men have the privilege of combative or competitive stance being accepted, while women have the privilege of administering self-focused personal care like moisturizing lotion. But any so -called privilege is just one face of a coin with many faces. A woman may suffer from lack of respect for primping. A man may be dismissed as a poser or loose cannon if too tense and argumentative. Being an attractive woman is just great as long as the right kind of man is attracted. Being a no nonsense unemotional man is great for getting stuff done, and a real liability when your son needs you to feel.

[Miel GG]

To return to the subject of privilege- we speak of male privilege, but are more inclined to speak of female lack of privilege/oppression, as this view of the social context is popular right now. However, I think privilege really means anything we do that no one objects to strongly or prevents us from doing. Normally it refers to something that can be seen as desirable and that others are excluded from enjoying. Specific example would be that men often exercise the privilege of speaking over women, and women often exercise the privilege of taking charge and asserting authority in matters of emotional soothing. Men have the privilege of combative or competitive stance being accepted, while women have the privilege of administering self-focused personal care like moisturizing lotion. But any so -called privilege is just one face of a coin with many faces. A woman may suffer from lack of respect for primping. A man may be dismissed as a poser or loose cannon if too tense and argumentative. Being an attractive woman is just great as long as the right kind of man is attracted. Being a no nonsense unemotional man is great for getting stuff done, and a real liability when your son needs you to feel.

No Phili, for being defined as a priviledge, it has to concern one gender only AND being valued by the dominant's system.
For example primping is not a female privilege because culture defines it as superficial and reserved to the dominated.

[LilSissyStevie]

Some of the ideas expressed in this thread are why I no longer think of what I do as having anything to do with "femininity." I've cycled through just about every form of self delusion in an attempt to understand why I do this thing. Along the way, I've entertained and discarded such notions as: the idea that I had a feminine side or an inner woman that needed to be expressed, that I was trying to be my own girlfriend, that my CDing and associated behaviors reflected what I thought of women or how I thought women should be, or that I could do femininity better than people who actually have what our culture deems feminine traits. I'm not competing with women in any sense. I could go on and on but suffice it to say that what I do doesn't have much to do with women at all. But it does have everything to do with masculinity and my tortured relationship with it. So I call it what it is: emasculation. I'm truly what Dr. Anne Lawrence calls a "man trapped in a man's body." When I was young, I had so much trauma and anxiety surrounding my perception of myself as masculine that I could barely function at times. This was a big deal in the hyper macho milieu I found myself in. Being perceived as a "fairy" was a potential death sentence but ostracism and constant bullying would be the minimum I could expect if anyone found out that my machismo was just a mask I wore to fit in. (Maskulinity, LOL!) Sometimes it was so overwhelming, I just had to take a break from masculinity and heterosexuality. Hence, crossdressing and associated fantasies although I didn't really understand it at the time. I could not conquer my trauma and anxiety so I found it easier to surrender to it. Either way I could cease fighting for a time. My sexual dysfunction was such that I felt there was no hope that I could have a satisfying physical relationship with a woman so I entertained the notion that I would be better off on the receiving end of the sexual act. I'm not competing with women for the attention of men thinking that I can out do them in attractiveness and sexual prowess. I'm not attracted to men at all. The fantasy is simply an exercise in emasculation. It's about me, not them. Over the decades I've pretty much dealt with trauma and anxieties that started me down this path but the erotic imprints remain. There's nothing I can do about that but to enjoy it while I still can. Womankind can relax knowing that I won't be trying to colonize their spaces. lol!

[phili]

in reference to Miel's POV:
As a GG she has the privilege of her POV being considered more accurate than mine with respect to what a female feels! On the other hand, I'll bet, given the diversity of human experience, there are females who agree with my definition of privilege, and who disagree for different reasons. Anyway, my original question was meant to be from the POV of males who crossdress, and who talk about how lucky women are to be able to wear pretty things, etc. My own experience was that clothes that felt like a privilege before I wore them all day didn't seem so clearly a privilege as the day wore on and I was in different environments, with different people, and doing different things.

My purpose in posting was to suggest that we might want to acknowledge that these pleasures were really a form of cherry picking female experiences. That phrase itself implies that the experiences are the 'best' ones, and we should examine that premise!

Thanks to everyone! This was very useful for me in terms of solidifying my understanding that my interpretation postulating a social bargain underlying the different allowable behaviors [won't say privilege any more- too loaded a term] is personal. It is rooted in the 50s and is not a way of understanding what we are doing that is particularly helpful to others here.

I have come to feel that most of us, me included, have very skimpy sets of reasons for most of what we do. Each of us is holding only a few strands of a many stranded rope, and talking about the rope. Well- we are doing the best we can!

[Jodie_Lynn]

To return to the subject of privilege- we speak of male privilege, but are more inclined to speak of female lack of privilege/oppression, as this view of the social context is popular right now. However, I think privilege really means anything we do that no one objects to strongly or prevents us from doing. Normally it refers to something that can be seen as desirable and that others are excluded from enjoying.


privilege verb
privileged; privileging
Definition of privilege (Entry 2 of 2)
transitive verb

1: to grant a privilege to
2: to accord a higher value or superior position to
privilege one mode of discourse over another



A "privilege" can be granted, or withdrawn. Such as.... a group being allowed to use a ball field at school, and the 'privilege' being revoked because the group violated school rules.

So please, enlighten the audience as to what 'privileges' women enjoy?

[Dutchess]

Thanks Stevie for being honest , I dont need to quote the whole post but all of what he wrote I recognize oh too well .

Like really that rang a bell VERY loud and actually helps me understand better . This applies to both men in my life that dd this - One I ended up hating the other I adored and miss terribly.
Two very different kinds of life experiences/upbringing, but same end result and I know that more than a couple, if they read that carefully, will also recognize that too .
Many MANY times here the word femininity could be swapped out with the word aroused , submissive or submissively aroused .


I'm a bit gobsmacked over this comment. "Sherry," as you refer to your suit and a mask, is inanimate and effectively a costume. No woman is jealous of a costume, if they were, they could wear the same costume!

This is just me ( a GG ) but over the years I have come to see Sherry as sort of performance art. He does pictostories on other platforms that I follow than can be pretty interesting .




and this whole "competing" thing, I don't buy in to that at all. Women are not jealous of men dressed as women. Single, married, or otherwise. Someone is misunderstanding the message.

You would be correct , none of us (gg's) are jealous, but some here sure like to think that .

[Miel GG]

in reference to Miel's POV:
As a GG she has the privilege of her POV being considered more accurate than mine with respect to what a female feels!

I didn't give you a GG's POV. I gave you the sociological definition of a gender privilege.

[Kelly DeWinter]

I've always said that gender has no reflection on what a person wears, how they speak, wear their hair, what perceived "privileges'" they have or don't have or even their mannerisms. All of these this are outward constructs of their macro and micro social dynamic. It is ever changing and fluid. One of the most interesting things I've observed over many years has been the evolution of "Valley speak", I was in California when Valley speak burst on the scene from the San Fernando Valley on West Coast to the East cost propelled by music videos and pop movies. girls and teams learned to speak "Valley" with terms such as "like", "OMG", "fur sure", "totally", "totally", "seriously". Also the long vowel use in inflection as become entrenched in how a lot ow women speak these days.

Is it genetic no, is it because of privilege's ? Probably because most women who use the inflection appear to be of upper middle to rich in economic upbringing. So what started out as a local regional dialect has in essence become a artificial national affection.

[ReineD]

To Phili, you mention privilege a lot. Privilege is another word for advantage. Males do have an advantage over women when it comes to physical strength, which in my opinion gave rise to their advantage in commerce and politics. Historically, males have made the rules that subjugated women. Why? Because they were bigger and stronger, not because they were smarter. Gosh, women weren't even allowed to vote until 100 years ago! Even though in the last few generations women have pierced through the many ceilings constructed by men to contain them, (although this still hasn't changed in many parts of the world) men still far outnumber women in the upmost positions of power.

So "male privilege" is not as privileged as it used to be. Not when it comes to having a gendered advantage to power (money-making and rule-making).

But, (many?) crossdressers seem to believe that there is such a thing as "female privilege" because women can buy all these pretty clothes, or in your words, "administer self-focused personal care like moisturizing lotion". You do realize that women have HAD to focus on ways to make themselves attractive when they had to depend on men for their survival? There was no option until the 20th century for women to become successful in what used to be known as a "man's world". Thankfully all of this has changed. That said, men are visual creatures who are attracted to pretty ladies and of course women know that. Even though we don't need to put on all that artifice anymore for our survival, we are still interested in attracting men - which explains the clothing and cosmetics industry. :)

I don't know of any men other than crossdressers, who envy the pretty clothes, the makeup, the perfume, the pretty shoes, etc, the things that crossdressers say give women power. If some women have a certain sexual power over some men, it is because of male hormones and the male sex drive and not because women have some mystical "privilege" in that area. If some women do have the "privilege" of twirling guys around their little finger, don't you think that some men have the same "privilege"? Have you never heard of women falling so desperately for a guy that she will do anything for him, even if it places her in a disadvantageous position?

So all of this explains, BTW, why women do not feel threatened, or why they don't feel they are in "competition" with crossdressers. Because women know that crossdressers don't have the biological things that men want and need. Just as I'm sure men do not at all feel threatened by FtMs.

Really Phili as much as I like you, please stop giving credence to all these stereotypes about women. They simply do not apply to the vast majority of us.

And LilSissyStevie, a lot of what you wrote rings true. Thank you for your honesty.

[Teresa]

Stevie,
I'm going to agree with most of your comments as so much rings true . I did get a very interesting comment from a GG friend that helped run a bridal shop , in her opinion some of us possibly revert to a youg girl at puberty and some never move on . She was relating this to some CDing customers who just liked to visit the shop just to try on bridal or bridesmaids dresses , " Sugar and spice and all things nice !" syndrome as she called it .

I will add that J** was a buxom woman and she was failry verbal with me because I was slipping into size 12 gowns and she had to admit she commented on not be able to compete with me on how they fitted and looked . She went on to say it's OK when a female customer can do it but frustrating when a male customer can do it , so was I stepping a little on female privilege in her eyes ?

[phili]

Really Phili as much as I like you, please stop giving credence to all these stereotypes about women. They simply do not apply to the vast majority of us.



The subject of 'privilege' obviously touches a nerve for a lot of people, and understandably so. Can we all agree with this statement?

"Many crossdressers speak of envying things that women do, and may even consider them a form of female 'privilege'. Many, if not most women do not see it that way! "

[tooshytogoout]

The subject of 'privilege' obviously touches a nerve for a lot of people, and understandably so. Can we all agree with this statement?

No. Misusing the idea of privilege is what touches a nerve.

[DianeT]

Phili, I agree with your last statement as you phrased it. I think indeed that it is important that you stress that your "privilege" qualifier is heavily biased towards the crossdresser POV, overvalueing things that would be of less importance for a woman, or even downright offending (like the cat call some dressers seem to be pleased with). When reading your OP I was for instance dumbfounded by the following lines:


So when a female woman sees me verging into her area of society by wearing 'women's" clothes that are nice and having a day out, I am clearly playing dressup and cherry picking the presumed 'best of times-. But they understand just how much more there is to being a woman, from their own biology [ok- I said social definition- but most people, like my wife, still feel their biology and their norms are linked], to the work involved in dressing up and grooming for performing 'woman's day out' , and it is meant to be their assigned reward- something they rarely actually get to do, and it is meant to counter the suppression and burdens they have had since being little girls and told they can't climb trees or get muddy or whatever. I sometimes think that the attention getting for looking good is meant to be intense, so it can counter a lot of less good experiences we also lay on them- like not taking their opinions seriously.

If I understand it well, it is basically saying that being pleasing to the male eye makes up for being routinely treated as a nitwit (and then some) by the same. To a woman, this is a very offensive thing to read. Now, my take on this is that this is your crossdresser POV speaking. And when you write "I sometimes think", you are indeed thinking like a dresser and projecting your experience onto the GG's. Anyway, trying to follow the logic, this little scene popped in my mind and I thought I would share it (to readers: this is humour. Please switch to second degree mode.):

ACT I

SCENE I. In Paul's office.

Paul is sitting in his office, playing Klondike on his computer

Enters Kate, a file in her hands

PAUL

- Kate, you are beautiful and I want to mate with you.

KATE

- Thank you Paul, these words are music to my ears. But I came to you to talk about your sales results. In the recent weeks, they seem to have plum...

PAUL

He interrupts her with a wave of his hand and jumps from his seat to approach her, grinning

- Oh, you again. Didn't I tell you to stop talking serious? It doesn't go well with your pretty face.

He leans towards her (Paul skipped the class about consent)

KATE

She blushes as he comes closer

- You are right, what was I thinking? That feeling of being a dumb piece of furniture at men's service is so fulfilling, what more could a girl ask from life?

In the heat of the moment, she swiftly unbuckles his trousers (Karen skipped the class too), but suddenly freezes and gives an exclamation of surprise

- My, Paul! Lacy panties? I would never have imagined...

PAUL

- Now, now, about these sales results... What was your question again?

[ReineD]

The subject of 'privilege' obviously touches a nerve for a lot of people, and understandably so. Can we all agree with this statement?

"Many crossdressers speak of envying things that women do, and may even consider them a form of female 'privilege'. Many, if not most women do not see it that way! "


I agree with "Many crossdressers speak of envying things that women do", although "touches a nerve" (in the sense of making someone feel angry, upset, embarrassed, etc, which is the Merriam-Webster definition) isn’t quite accurate. It’s more about some crossdressers’ wishful thinking vs making objective arguments, and I’m a stickler for objective arguments. Wishful thinking is not an argument. And even though some crossdressers believe that women have "a form of female 'privilege'", this doesn’t mean that women do, in fact, have the privilege of being women. I explain further below.

So do you then agree that your following statement is not well thought through, even though I can totally see that you personally do envy the ways that some women choose to adorn themselves, or you do envy some (or all?) of women’s biological differences?


However, I think privilege really means anything we do that no one objects to strongly or prevents us from doing. Normally it refers to something that can be seen as desirable and that others are excluded from enjoying.

Because there are lots of things people feel they can’t have and envy of others, that are NOT "privileges" enjoyed by these others.

For example: the neighbor’s weed-free lawn (a priority for ridding one’s lawn of weeds, not a privilege); a neighbor’s higher salary (this is due to maybe being born in a family that could pay for a college degree and the amount of work put in towards a particular goal - not privilege. Note I am not speaking here of systemic racial privilege); someone else’s talent such as musical or artistic or someone else’s advanced degree (these are innate abilities or hard-worked-for accomplishments, not privileges); the facility that someone has of making friends and fitting in if you are shy or a loner (personality differences, not privileges); the accomplishments of someone else’s child if you perceive that your own child has no drive; the way your friend’s wife treats him, compared to how your spouse treats you. I remember my mother being envious of her friend whose husband made her coffee every morning and called her "darling", whereas it never would have occurred to my father to do the same. But, my father was very handy around the house and I remember this same friend telling my mother how she envied this, because her husband had no interest in working with his hands. It’s all envy for what you don’t have for a multitude of reasons, not privilege.

These are just a few things that came to mind immediately and I could go on and on for pages.

You are a crossdresser. You really, really like to be feminine. You get something out of it. It makes you feel good, whether you think you are innately feminine or not (and the definition of innate femininity is a whole other argument). And to counter your argument that women have things you feel you are excluded from enjoying, you are referring to society’s general non-acceptance of men wearing women’s clothes. It’s not being privileged that the vast majority of women are hetero and simply prefer their mates to not be feminine in appearance. Right? It’s a lot easier for a platonic female friend to accept the crossdressing in a male friend than it is for a wife who actually sleeps with her crossdressing husband. And because I’m not male, I can’t begin to explain why men look down so much on effeminate men since they don’t have to sleep with them … but whatever the reason, that’s not about women having the privilege of being women.

In our society, people are largely expected to be true to their sex in appearance. This has everything to do with biology and cultural expectations (and maybe even honesty) and nothing to do with either men or women having the "privilege" to be who they are. Granted, once more open-minded people do become aware there are others who wish to vary from the norms of their sex, they are able to accept it to varying degrees. But again, this has nothing to do with anyone’s "privilege" of just naturally being true to who they are sexually (I’m referring to the biological definition of sex).

Sorry to go on and on about this, but I feel as if I need to spell it out in excruciating detail because crossdressers’ arguments about women’s privilege, or a non-accepting wife feeling threatened or jealous because her husband is infringing on her "female domain" as if there is some sort of competition, has been popping up in this forum since it began. And these arguments simply are not true. What is true though, is that (some) crossdressers do envy women, as you stated above, even if they feel more comfortable pointing the finger to "female privilege or domain" rather than simply admitting to envy - no matter why they feel this envy.

[confused_cathreen]

I am not visiting the forum as often as I used to anymore but it's a nice surprise when I see a civilised conversation with a lot of education thrown in for the crossdressing patrons and a lot of truths from the GGs. I am only going to add to the GG voices: never, ever, felt threatened in my role in the relationship with my ex, in my sexuality, and by the way he looked the one and (thankfully) only time he dressed in front of me. To me, it looked like a discombobulated image of male and female, like those square toys you used to turn the heads, torso and legs and create new combinations. I was stunned he would willingly want to look like that, and would find that attractive to boot. I understand that it's not what the majority of readers want to hear but it is my truth nevertheless. And I find it quite humorous that anyone would imagine that I would ever be envious of that.
In the topic of privilege, women never consider the "freedom" to wear dresses as some sort of bastion of their nature that needs to be defended at all costs. Pretty things? I find three piece suits pretty. Those shiny shoes that go with them extremely pretty. Those cufflinks at the end of a starched shirt really pretty. The reason for that is that I am a very very straight woman. And men and all of the above are what I am attracted to. The word "pretty", interchangable with attractive (only because I consider the word patronising, since it is linked to only one state of womanhood that somehow disappears the older a woman gets), changes depending on what you are attracted to look at. Not what you wear. I wouldn't want to wear that. I would want my partner to wear it so that my eyes can feast on that image. That's why crossdressing was impossible to empathise with or understand.

As the new generations grows up, it will be interesting to see how the perception and expectation of how both genders are supposed to look like changes. The stereotypes that Phili described will die off. Boys are now more accepted to wear whatever they want and girls don't bat an eyelid. Maybe crossdressing will end up disappearing as no one will find the image of a boy in a skirt unusual. I have high hopes that at least the lies and the hiding will stop. And that will only be a good thing for the relationship between the two genders.

p.s. Phili, you have my permission to moisturise. In fact, everyone should.

[Paulie Birmingham]

I am not visiting the forum as often as I used to anymore but it's a nice surprise when I see a civilised conversation with a lot of education thrown in for the crossdressing patrons and a lot of truths from the GGs. I am only going to add to the GG voices: never, ever, felt threatened in my role in the relationship with my ex, in my sexuality, and by the way he looked the one and (thankfully) only time he dressed in front of me. To me, it looked like a discombobulated image of male and female, like those square toys you used to turn the heads, torso and legs and create new combinations. I was stunned he would willingly want to look like that, and would find that attractive to boot. I understand that it's not what the majority of readers want to hear but it is my truth nevertheless. .

Lol. I said the same thing a few minutes ago about me.in another thread.

[suzanne]

I'm curious about where you are receiving negative vibes, because that's just not been my experience. My presentation is very similar to yours. I am a MIAD who makes no effort to pass as a woman. When I am out, I get the very real sense that women automatically accept me as I am. I've speculated a lot about why this could be. I've come up with a couple. They are my own unconfirmed musings and as such are wide open for debate.

First and foremost, I'm obviously not a regular man. Women can count on me not to mansplain, or try for a sexual encounter, or any kind of toxic masculinity BS. It is similar to the situation with gay men.

Second, clothes, shoes and accessories provide easy conversation starters. Once started, my first point is reinforced.

I believe that toxic masculinity is one of the great barriers to a healthy society. Most women are acutely aware of this while most men are unaware it exists. At present, a man in a dress is most likely to be sympathetic to women's concerns and as such can be part of the solution.

[phili]

I thank everyone for the storms of protest. It helped me see how I developed my theory of assigned male and female powers and privileges, coupled with dreadful requirements and repressions, as a social bargain.

I was raised in the 50s, in the postwar baby boom, and my family was very structured around there being 'no rights', only duties, and everything nice was a privilege to be 'earned/(conferred)' or , if assigned, maintained by compliant behavior. my theory has held very well over time, but it is theoretical, and obviously most people here have other ways to think about the subject of privilege.

I was very aware of the intense suppression of the humanity of females in all ways except emotional range. I saw that many, if not most, women suffered more, and more obviously, than men. I was glad that as they grew up many fortunately found ways to adapt and expand and feel successful in the social and personal spaces left open for them. The brutal formality was also reflected in women's right to order men around in certain ways.

Then, with the onset of birth control and middle class wealth, and with the urging of Mad Men style advertising, women tried to make a go of being vixens or cute nice girls. I think I felt like so many girls that somehow I had to be like the magazine and TV idealizations. I knew on one level that beauty is only skin deep, and I would never be beautiful, but I could at least be carefree for ...a few moments?

As a male I had many more freedoms [privileges- in my lexicon] than females- that was obvious- and to keep them I just had to keep proving I was a man. Other men threatened violence on interloping women, while I identified with girls as freer human beings in the emotional realm. They had the privilege of being able to feel, to cry, to be compassionate and talk honestly with each other- ..which were more important to me than the moisturizing and giggling and twirling. I couldn't ask for help to save me life. A psychologist in college once told me I was so bottled up I coudn't say s**t if I had a mouthful."

I am only now gradually seeing and understanding all these things as just normal human activity that I was denied. Yes, I am still holding on to my lifeline of crossdressing. my way to jump in and claim space on the [ok imaginary, perhaps] women's team, in the privacy of my own little world. Until the day i don't need to anymore, if that day comes.

Women's liberation in the 70s started the long march for women to claim their full range of personal freedom. The glass ceiling is crumbling, very slowly. Few women are wearing dresses now- and seem to feel they may have to explain if they do. I feel my desire waning- ... if no one's wearing dresses any more then it has no meaning beyond the pure physicality.

I know I dress to communicate a healthy feminine sexiness, and that is real. My femininity is innate, but I accept that it may not be different from the average human range. I am gradually morphing into a more well rounded human being and the learned gap I learned to maintain, and the accompanying high tension between my 'man' self and 'woman' self is weakening.

The mysteriousness of the magic of crossdressing is waning. I feel more like I am a woman who is wondering if I want to bother sewing another new outfit, or whether the people I will be with will understand and appreciate my clothing choices, or if it will cause static.

That is a testimony to the fact that I no longer feel I am on the outside and have to have the outfit to be on the inside. Now I am on the inside of 'womanhood'- defined as those things I felt I was denied as a human being. That is all good news.

I started the thread to suggest that any of my fellow crossdressers who, like me, idealize 'the world of women', might find it useful to take another look at that world as a holistic experience. The responses from GGs have admirably helped in that.

[Jodie_Lynn]

@phili

Why don't you list what you believe to be female 'privileges', that might make discussion a bit easier. And please state whether you believe that women need to 'earn' these so-called privileges'

[DianeT]

Then, with the onset of birth control and middle class wealth, and with the urging of Mad Men style advertising, women tried to make a go of being vixens or cute nice girls.
Maybe this is how you saw it at the time. But it is a generalization based on a crossdresser POV. The pill was a victory of feminists (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_McCormick). I doubt that women at large saw the next step in female evolution as becoming vixens and cuties. Actually for some, the next step was more of a crossdresser nightmare:
https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-45303069

[phili]

Jodie, I don't consider anything to be 'privileges' any more for the purposes of public discussion of gender behaviors! As I said, for me, every freedom is a privilege, under threat of revocation by some authority- and that this is derived from childhood experience, magnified into a social theory, and it has limited value as a generalization, so I'm dropping it!

I should have said in the OP only that we could benefit from considering more fully the experience of females, and in so doing might find that our view of desirable clothes, actions, behaviors, etc would not coincide well with much of what we found females were feeling and experiencing. On a more subtle point, I'd say we share the ache to be free- and in particular to be able to express the full range of our feelings and explore the full range of our capacities.

Diane T- I was generalizing here- guaranteed to be wrong on something that has much more nuance. We routinely oversimplify the lives of others, and even ourselves!

[sometimes_miss]

Female 'privilege' is basically the option to either become a mother / wife / career person, two of the three, or go for all of the above. Men have one option, and only one. While there are a few stay at home dads, it, just like being a crossdresser, is generally frowned upon, and unless he's rich, is often considered just a leech by many. Even John Lennon was considered a slacker for just quitting the music biz to spend more time with his family, instead of holding up the 'always be more ambitious' role that every man is supposed to.
Women don't have to, and are not expected to, always try for more pay and a higher position at work. Another 'privilege'.
I am an example of what men are expected to do; I had found a job I liked, and made good money, but was frequently questioned by both women and men, as to why I didn't try for a management position; and when it was offered, and I refused, people thought it odd that 'a man' would turn down 'a promotion'. They couldn't accept that I would prefer to keep a job I liked, rather than make more money and do something I didn't like. Men are just assumed to want to seek the most money and powerful positions possible, even if the job is awful to do; we're just expected to do it.
Women are also the ones to decide whether to accept a proposal of marriage, or refuse.
With the onset of widespread availability of birth control to women, they can also choose whether to be sexually active, or not, as well as whether to bear children, or not.

And the option to marry, have children, and sue for divorce and alimony when tired of their mate, is still generally reserved for women; men who do so, are generally ridiculed for doing that, as well.
Now I'm not saying that women have it easy in life by any means, just that there are advantages and disadvantages to existing as either sex.

Oh, and a 1990's Wall Street Journal article quoted labor stats, which showed that single, college educated women were making a mean of 101% of what college educated men were making, establishing that women who were serious about their careers, were indeed able to make the same money as men do. The women who made less? Those who choose other things outside of their career to focus on; ANYTHING that takes away focus on the career will inevitably wind up decreasing income.

[DianeT]

Oh, and a 1990's Wall Street Journal article quoted labor stats, which showed that single, college educated women were making a mean of 101% of what college educated men were making, establishing that women who were serious about their careers, were indeed able to make the same money as men do. The women who made less?.
Well they obviously weren't serious enough, because this recent article from the same journal says the exact opposite:
https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/women-slowly-shifting-to-higher-paying-college-majors-study-says-11570179600
Could you share a link to your 1990 study?

Actually there are facts that show that the wages for a job category tend to vary based on the proportion of men or women occupying the positions. So I am not sure the job women select have a lot to do with it. The day they select a more "serious" job to a point where they will be a majority of women there, the wages will probably reduce. But this is another discussion.

[jeanine38]

I think that's a brilliant post, phili. I couldn't agree more with everything you say.

Ditto!!! The OP captures a lot of why I do this. I do think female privilege is real, but society has trouble admitting this.

[Jodie_Lynn]

@jeanine38

Please give us a list of these 'female privileges', if you would be so kind.

[mbmeen12]

Why so serious?....I love that line from the movie and I am reading and reading the posts lol....


Does anyone else see these same dynamics? No not in my relationship...




How has it played out in your SOs acceptance or lack of acceptance? She accepts me and enjoys and appreciates the effort in how I transform myself in the beauty of who women are....