So, Super-Dumb Question

[Val_Blackbird]

This is mostly for GGs, but I suppose everyone should chime in. It's just a random thought, more or less.

If you saw a female-appearing person wearing a satin scarf tied loosely around her neck, would you think of this as a "tell?"

As I type this, I guess I can also ask what sorts of things you look for in other people if you're trying to make a determination. I know what I do, but clearly, I'm a bit more biased than some would be, and I'm told GGs look for smaller details than others. That may be a sweeping generalization, and if so, apologies in advance. Not trying to offend anyone, I promise. :)

Anyway, thanks.

[char GG]

I'm not sure what you mean by a "tell"? Are you trying to determine if it's really a GG or a CDer?

As a GG, I notice many "tells" when I think someone is a CDer. Posture, gait, sitting position, make up, voice, usually I can tell if someone has a wig on or not, shoulder width, dressed for the venue, and eye movement are just a few.

If that is not your question, then please disregard my answer.

[Nadine Spirit]

Most people don't look for tells, imo. We do because we are kind of obsessed with gender. Most people seriously don't examine others quite near as much as we tend to.

I would not find the scarf to be a tell. Personally I'd probably be judging how it went with your outfit, if I thought anything about it at all.

[docrobbysherry]

Maybe a scarf isn't a good example? I can't recall the last time I saw a T wearing a scarf. A GG either for that matter!:daydreaming:

[Sometimes Steffi]

I've seen older women wearing scarfs, In think to hide the wrinkles and look younger. I'd name her, but she's a famous high-level American politician.

[Val_Blackbird]

Ok, I guess I don't need to be quite as vague as I thought.

I bought a bunch of actually quite nice satin scarves for the price, because it's difficult to find subtle necklaces to hide the seam of a breastplate. But, I do worry about some people - one section of society in particular that I probably shouldn't specify - seeing me wearing a scarf and thinking: "Scarf . . . Hmmm . . . Must be a dude." And, you can imagine where that could go from there.

Plus, it wouldn't hurt to know what subtle things people focus in on to figure out the situation. I mean, we all know about the movements, voice, etc. But, I am sure there are some very small tells that give us away, stuff that casual observers may miss but someone who is paying close attention and taking detailed inventory won't. Know what I mean? Having that sort of information, I think, can be the difference between a good time and an unexpected expiration.

Again, kind of a random thought, but I figure it's worth poking it.

[Cheshire girl]

Lots of people wear scarves in UK in all seasons.

[Stephanie47]

My wife has made dozens of infinity scarves for family and friends. I've seen many women wearing scarves in the colder months. I've seen many women wearing light weight scarves as an accent piece of clothing in the summer along with hats to shield their faces from direct sun...preserving their skin.

As to what is a giveaway that a person is a cross dressing man as opposed to a woman Char pretty much gave an all inclusive response. The only observation I would make is most people are not out there trying to identify the gender of a person attired in female garments.

To parody Justice Potter Stewart, "I know it when I see it!"

[AngelaYVR]

Val, I have a pretty extensive collection of small silk scarves that I wear to complement an outfit. I wear them knotted around the neck - very Parisian, very chic - get lots of nice things said about them. It’s definitely a vintage thing for me as you don’t typically see this done any more. I did consider whether people would think I was trying to hide my Adam’s apple but a) I don’t care and b) I hardly have one anyway.

[Vickie_CDTV]

If they are wearing a scarf around their neck and it is very warm out, or it really clashes with the rest of their outfit, maybe. Similar to wearing a turtleneck in the middle of summer might be suspect.

I wear silk and satin scarves, but I am an old fashioned/vintage woman. Not many GGs wear them anymore, if they do they tend to be mature women (bless their hearts.)

There are usually much bigger tells than an adam's apple, as Char said.

[ReineD]

"Scarf . . . Hmmm . . . Must be a dude."

I really don’t think it has anything to do with scarves, jewelry, length of hair, or whether someone is wearing makeup or not.

Both men and women’s brains are able to quickly analyze general facial structures to determine the difference between male and female faces … when they bother to look. Most times people are busy with their own concerns and don’t notice others.

But, when our eyes do rest on someone’s face, we notice things like overall skin texture, the placement (not the shape) of the eyebrows above the eye socket, the size and shape of the forehead and jaw compared to the width of the face, the width of the nose compared to the width of the face, the placement of cheekbones, the size (thickness and length) of the neck, the size and shape of the shoulders, the general shape (squareness) of the head, the size of the ears, the distance between the tip of the nose and the upper lip, to name a few. It’s easier to tell the difference between middle-aged male and female faces (say 25-65 years old) than teenagers whose features haven’t fully formed and very old people whose features are collapsing.

[Di]

Char and a Reine gave great answers :)
Things that made me stop and have a second look, because for the most part I am busy and not really looking at others .
The exceptions that stands out to me is is someone darting around , head turning right and left as looking to see if someone is looking that in itself makes you look suspicious and given a second look. . You are not doing anything wrong act confident ( fake being confident till you are)
The other thing is a bad wig ....always makes me look.
I have told this story before , years ago stopped at my daughters restaurant and she asked me to help a cder that was there eating . Wearing a loose ratty wig and on top of that was all crooked. My daughter felt bad because people were laughing and talking about her ....I sat down xplained my daughter worked there and she felt bad and did not want to explain in front of everyone as not to embarrass them further , told them their wig was falling off and when they were done I could walk them out. Outside I explained my fianc? was tg and gave them a pep talk in the parking lot not to let this ruin everything .
So two things that I have witnessed myself .
A bad wig, gives a second look and the things Reine listed are noted .

[Teresa]

Val,
After being called " Madam " twice at the builder's merchant wearing old jeans , Tshirt and workboots the only " Tells " must have been my boobs and blond hair . Sorry no fancy silk scarf !

Also as Reine points out I always wear makeup but I must admit I'm worried about my features collapsing .

Di
Aren't we all " Fakers " at times irrespective of gender issues ? Although I'm intrigued to know exactly what you mean by " faking it !"

[Ressie]

I don't know for sure.> I saw a female in a thrift store the other day that was very tall! Had her pegged for a CD because of the height but she certainly didn't have man hands. I didn't want to stare for any length of time or move in closer so I was left unsure.

A scarf could set off the question of gender but other factors would also have to be present. I love it when I can't tell for sure!

[MonicaPVD]

Women pick up on visual and behavioral cues immediately because of their absolute and universal mastery of these things. Like a master builder who walks into you beautiful, luxurious bathroom and immediately points out the half dozen very real flaws that have been invisible to you all along. Ultimately, the concept of passing is a fantasy. The goal should be to achieve a state of self-acceptance and comfort in your skin. Once you are there, you become the most beautiful woman in the world.

[Aunt Kelly]

If you get clocked, it won't be the scarf.

[Robertacd]

If you saw a female-appearing person wearing a satin scarf tied loosely around her neck, would you think of this as a "tell?"


Unless it totally matches and makes the outfit GG's rarely if ever wear anything like that anymore...

Most times they do it's because are trying to hide something, usually a hickey. :heehee:

But Char is right there are so many tells beyond your Adams Apple.

[Helen_Highwater]

Val,

I think you like many of us including me are at times guilty of over thinking things. If a scarf is a dead giveaway then I'm screwed as if you look at my avatar I'm often to be found wearing a scarf when out and about especially on a cold night.

If the scarf goes with the outfit then all to the good. Wearing one with a boob tube, micro skirt and killer heels well it won't be the scarf that draws the eye but you get my drift I'm sure.

[Val_Blackbird]

Thanks, all.

Just pointing out: It's not so much about covering my neck. My apple isn't really noticeable at all. It's about covering a seam a couple of inches below my neck. :)

[Robertacd]

Try some fancy jewelry, that's what the Drag Queens do.

But then of course everyone knows why they do too...

[Leslie Langford]

I'm not sure I understand the question if it pertains primarily to the wearing of silk scarves or the like. A lot of women wear them as fashion accessories, and in fact, for many of them it's part of their "look", or "brand". If they do have ulterior motives such as wearing a scarf to hide what they consider to be an undesirable bodily feature as another poster here has suggested, that may be part of the reason for their preference to wear scarves, but either way, it is a deliberate and acceptable fashion choice. I can think of a number of female public figures who always wear scarves when they appear on television. It's part of the image they want to project, just like Angela Merkel and Hilary Clinton's pantsuits and Kim Kardashian's butt-enhancing outfits.

As far as the larger issue of common "tells" is concerned, I think that Reine has provided not only an extensive list of those, but also some valuable insight into what typically catches a GG's eyes in such circumstances. Women are far more observative and intuitive than men when it comes to such things. On the positive side, when they do manage to "clock" a CDer due to these "tells", they tend to be far less judgemental about it or willing to "out" them the way a man might. If anything, GG's are far more inclined to appreciate the effort that a CDer has put into trying to perfect their female presentation, and at times will even compliment them on it without necessarily giving away the fact that the have been read in order to protect their feelings. That's certainly been my experience so far.

[Star01]

Revealing my rural location and lack of sophistication but I have no idea what a "tell" is. If I saw someone wearking a satin scarf tied loosely around her neck I wouldn't even notice it or attribute it to her projecting some kind of "tell".

[Val_Blackbird]

Leslie / Star,

I'm basically wondering if someone were trying to make sure my boobs are real, would a scarf hiding the seam where the silicone ends and my chest begins be an instant tip-off? I'm talking about at some distance, as up close it would be bloody obvious, no matter what.

[Robertacd]

Star a "tell" is something that gives away your secret. You hear tell used a lot in card games like poker. Like always holding your cards a certain way when you have a good hand or the way your voice changes when you are bluffing is a tell

[Micki_Finn]

The biggest tell is usually the hip-waist-shoulder ratio. Facial features can be another one. Poorly worn clothes. Those are the big 3 from a distance. Closer up it can be hand size, prominent veins, voice, or Adam?s apple that can give you away. There are really a million tells that can give you away. This is why I generally tell people to not obsess over ?passing?. Present yourself as well as possible, and just own who you are.

As to your specific question, the FIRST thing I think when I see a choker, scarf, etc., is ?breastplate? but I hang out with drag queens so I?m probably hyper aware of such things, but chokers and neck scarves aren?t really on trend right now so it?s probably not going to be as ?blendy? as you hope.

[Val_Blackbird]

Thanks. 🙂

With respect to passing, while personal pride and accomplishment do play a role, for me, passing is primarily about safety. Camouflage. 😉

[Teresa]

Val,
I didn't get the reason when I read your thread but if it's to cover up forms then maybe think of alternatives . I only wear forms to give my natural part I have a lift , so when I wear anything low cut you only see me and not forms . Otherwise I wear scarves for the same reason GGs do , partly to enhance an outfit or if it's cold they keep the chill off when wearing a coat or jacket .

[BobbiJo C]

Val, I also wear scarves, not for deception but to accent the outfit.

[Barbara Jo]

I think some analyze things too much and reach the wrong conclusion .
Fact is, as ladies get older they tend to wear clothes that they wore when they were a bit younger... like a somewhat younger adult.
That goes for males also.

As far as scarfs...... some older female have loose skin on their necks, commonly called "chicken necks'
So, a loose fitting sheer scarf around the neck will hide this, or at least draw attention away from it.

0f course, a neck scarf and indeed the type of scarf has to blend well with the outfit worn and not look out of place. :)



.

[MonicaPVD]

We aren't fooling anyone who cares to pay attention.. Most people are either too self absorbed to notice, don't care either way, or are simply polite and keep their opinions to themselves. Unless you are specifically interested in being the center of attention somewhere, success can be defined as blending into the environment/not sticking out.


Thanks. ��

With respect to passing, while personal pride and accomplishment do play a role, for me, passing is primarily about safety. Camouflage. ��

[Jane G]

I'm intrigued that you ask GG's in particular. I suspect a CD is just as likely to spot another as a GG. We are some what more paranoid about the subject after all.

[Mezzanine]

My inclination would be to think the person is a woman, but then I would remember that it's not possible to generalize accurately from a single item of clothing or from someone's appearance or what I think their appearance suggests or doesn't suggest. I don't think i'd necessarily take it as an indicator of someone who crossdresses. The color and design of the scarf might help a bit to know. We tend to associate particular colors and designs with male/female, of course. Someone with a dark satin scarf might just look a little feminine in their physical appearance without the scaft indicating anything.

[Meghan4now]

I've seen older women wearing scarfs, In think to hide the wrinkles and look younger. I'd name her, but she's a famous high-level American politician.

So is Dr. Deborah Brix actually TG?????

I think the input given by many here is pretty solid. It's not usually one thing, but rather how things add up. Although certain characteristics are more heavily weighted than others. To Wong Fu aside, I feel like the adams apple is a lesser give away.

PS I got a scarf I rarely wear. It's pretty, but I find them cumbersome.

[Bobbi46]

I wear a scarf occasionaly sometimes on a chilly day other days as an accessory, and not to hide anything in particular