Maybe a rant

[Sidney]

The LGBT umbrella covers a huge spectrum of gender and human sexuality that a good portion of the population do not agree with. In the last fifty year great strides have been made for some under our large umbrella.

Under the L it is now legal to marry. Under the G it is now legal to marry. Overall the LG of the spectrum have gained a lot of rights and acceptance. Why haven't the T spectrum gained the same rights and acceptance.

Now these are my options and observations. The L and G stayed united. Their premise was simple men have a right to love other men and women had the right to love other women. That is simple and made unity easy for them.

That is a much smaller umbrella than the T umbrella. For some reason under the T umbrella just being transgender isn't enough. Are you just a panty wearer, underdresser, in the closet, out and about, 24/7 dresser, living full time as a woman, transitioning with surgery, etc, etc, etc.

Regressing, using Gays as an example. It didnt matter if a gay man was attracted to a hairy, muscular, knuckle scraping man or to a feminine man. You were just gay, and all were united.

Now with transgender it seem you need a box to be put in and not everyone will agree with what box you want. So we begin to divide ourselves into "groups". Some transgender think you need to be at a certain place on the transgender bridge to be transgender. This is OUR problem, instead of uniting we are dividing our selves.

United we stand, devided we will never be accepted.

Hope this made sense

[Kelly DeWinter]

This is a joke, but what rock are you living under ?

CD/TG acceptance has made tremendous strides in acceptance over the last 50 years. In the 1960's and 1970's if you had gender identity issues you could expect to be sent to a mental hospital as a course of treatment. The first SRS surgery was performed in 1959 and can now be scheduled almost without any complications. There are TG/CD actors./actresses models, physicians, military personnel. There are even CD/TG stores specifically FOR TG/CD.

Personally I would love to be 16 living my life now, it would be quite different.

[Micki_Finn]

First of all, trans people have only really been widely recognized as something different from “gay” in the last 10 years or so. And if you think all gay men are just “gay” and make no labels depending on how they express their sexuality, you probably don’t have the understanding of gay culture to really comment. Bear, twink, femme, masc, cub, otter, bottom, top, power bottom, power top, etc etc etc.

[Brianne_bc]

Spectrum is the right word to use. According to my Dr who is a gender specialist.

[Jodie_Lynn]

That is a much smaller umbrella than the T umbrella. For some reason under the T umbrella just being transgender isn't enough. Are you just a panty wearer, underdresser, in the closet, out and about, 24/7 dresser, living full time as a woman, transitioning with surgery, etc, etc, etc.

Wow, conflating much?

There is literally a world of difference between someone who occasionally wears panties, or dresses up, and someone living full-time, transitioning, or post-operative.

Before I continue, let me state that there is some "you're not as trans as me" sentiment in the community that I've encountered. Personally, I think it's a stupid attitude to hold, since the holders of that opinion were once 'merely' crossdressers themselves in many cases. So those elitists can go eat a bag of phalluses as far as I'm concerned.

And I firmly believe that as long as you are not harming anyone, you should do what makes you happy.

But I do disagree that any man who puts on a pair of panties, or a woman who likes to wear boxers, is transgender. It's like saying that because you eat a salad once in a while, you're a vegan. Or that, because you went to Bermuda and got a deep, deep tan, that you are now a Person-of-Colour. Or that just because you bought a motorcycle jacket, you're a biker.

Webster defines transgender thusly:

transgender
: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity differs from the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth

especially : of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is opposite the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth

IMHO, if crossdressers, panty wearers, and fetishists want to be included in the LGBT+ community, they are more than welcome. But I don't consider them to be transgender. Not a put down, or slur, just my opinion. YMMV.

[docrobbysherry]

Sydney, this site exists because it is unique in it's ability for T's of all sorts to communicate and learn! Of which I am an example!

When I arrived here after 10 years of dealing with my sudden dressing urges in a complete vacuum, I was so excited to find "others like me"!

But, over the years I've gotten to know countless dressers online and in person. And, ALL of them, including me, have transformed! But, not in the same way or down the same paths. It took me, and takes most of us here, years and years to figure ourselves out.

Micki said it so well! Only if u get out there any meet other dressers do really realize how different and varied we r! In fact, I can only think of ONE THING all of us do. To one degree or another, we all wear women's things.

In fact, I would argue many of us, me included, don't even belong under the T umbrella. Expansive and inclusive as it is!:eek:

[nancy58]

Relax, we're getting there. I came of age in the 1970s, and from what I could tell, "trans" wasn't even on the radar. The last thing any young man wanted to be called was "queer", and there was no Gay Pride back then. I myself was pretty afraid of gay men because I managed to attract the "queer" label in adolescence and had several come-ons from men or boys my age beginning when I was about 14. I had never heard of crossdressing and thought that my own forays into my mother's lingerie were despicable. The first time I saw a transgender woman in the next booth at a restaurant (identified as such by her voice), I was transfixed, and I remember it still, 37 years later. When I came out to myself and my wife 15 years ago, there seemed to be some acceptance in large cities for people who were willing to go so far as having gender-affirming surgery, but someone who did what I did seemed equivalent to Divine. (No shade on Divine, but I cannot be as theatrical as that.) In recent years we've had a number of court decisions that recognize that trans-people and crossdressers aren't perverts, and yes, we've had setbacks like the North Carolina bathroom bill a couple of years ago -- but people know we exist. My heart has been warmed a number of times in recent years when I've met people who have a deeper voice like me and are nonetheless living their lives out and proud.

Having said all that, Sidney, I just noticed that you're in South Mississippi. I am certain things are different there than they are in the Washington suburbs where I live. I am a South Carolina native, and I've noticed that a lot is still the same "back home", although things are better for people like us in the cities. Maybe the situation is similar where you live, that you might find more acceptance in a city? (Feel free to message me privately, although I'm not sure how quickly I'll respond.)

[Robertacd]

I hate to say it but there is a certain amount of "I got mine" from the L and G part of LGBTQ since marriage equality was upheld.

[Sidney]

I appreciate the comments. I'm 75 and a late bloomer. I was trying to create a dialogue and hope it continues. I suppose my point is we, all who identify as Transgender should support each other even if we dont totally agree. If I have a feminine side and only wear panties that is my place on the transgender spectrum if I feel I'm transgender and that is where I'm may be at the moment. Me personally am accepted by my wife. I wear panties, bras, female pants, blouses and shoes almost 24/7. When I dont wear them I dont feel right. I've been told I'm not transgender by more than one because I have no intention of transtioning. In a previous post Kelly said she would love to be sixteen now. If I were sixteen back in 1964 with the knowledge I have today I more than likely would have transitioned. However not understanding what I was until my late fifties and not accepting and loving myself until mid sixties put me in a different situation. Now because of medical problems I would never be able to transition. So where I am and what I am is who I am. And yes I have been diagnosed as transgender. I love my life.

[Marianne S]

Well, Sidney, I can't claim to be an expert on the topic, but it seems to me that being "transgender" is essentially a self-defined quality, as implied by what Jodie Lynn quoted above from Webster's. I don't lay claim to this label myself because I'm comfortable with masculine identity despite enjoying femininity in addition. That makes me "simply a crossdresser." But if somebody like yourself feels uncomfortable with male clothing, if you're "out and about" dressed 24/7, presenting as a woman, and prefer in your own mind to do so, that sounds pretty transgender to me! I suggest that anyone seeking to deny your definition of yourself, and your right to do so, is "all wet," and should be informed of it.

Your last post also raised questions in my mind that I hadn't thought about before, as stupid as that sounds. I disagree in principle with anyone who claims that "not planning to transition" disqualifies you from identifying as "transgender." But more to the point, what precisely does "transitioning" mean anyway?--and what is it you don't plan to do that somebody thinks excludes you from the "transgender" umbrella?

I've always thought of "transitioning" as implying primarily that someone (if born male) seeks to live and be accepted full time as a woman by the world at large--family, friends, at work, in public, and so on. There may be other processes involved, such as a legal change of name and particularly of sex on identification documents, hormones to change the body shape and "grow a pair" in a very different place, and surgery of various kinds, minor or major, but it seems to me these are all optional. Anyway if you're doing what I think you are, it seems to me you're close to "transitioning" already, even if you never plan to take it any further.

Even if you're not; even if you stay home "dressed" most of the time and wear male clothing only under protest to go out in public, that's still "transgender" in spirit. Then some people feel literally compelled to switch back and forth (see discussions on "gender fluidity"), which seems to me to qualify as "transgender" too, even if they don't plan a permanent transition. So don't let anyone tell you you're "not in the transgender club" if that's how you see yourself.

[Linda E. Woodworth]

OH Girl, did you step in it now.

I left the local "support" group because of this sort of stuff.

I was told by some people in the community that CD's WERE NOT considered "Trans".

I was told by some people in the community that CD"s WERE considered "Trans".

How's that for being clear about it.

I remember being told the history and fighting that went on inside the LBG community to get the "T" added. Some wanted it and some didn't.

I've always viewed all this as various factions coming together to fight a common enemy. Remember the Enemy of my Enemy is my friend.

So ask yourself, do the various factions in the LGBTQ..... community really love each other? OR is it a matter of having a common enemy to fight or goal to achieve that has brought them together.

By the way, I'm a Transvestite. I am not Trans nor do I consider myself that. I am not transitioning. For me it's all about the clothes.

[Cheryl T]

I've experienced things similar to Linda.
While part of a Tri-Ess group (support for hetero CD's and spouses) I was exposed to other groups, some comprised mainly of transexuals. There was a distinct bias against those of us were not Trans. It was as if we were lower class and not as good as them. I'm not saying all feel this way, I'm saying those I encountered did.
I can understand their struggle is different from ours and in some ways they feel even that we don't understand. My feeling is that alienation of a segment is never good. We all need every ounce of support we can muster if we are to make the gains in society that have been made by our Gay and Lesbian brothers and sisters.

[Krisi]

Maybe this post is better suited to the transsexual section. I don't think this concerns crossdressers.

[cindylouho]

There is literally a world of difference between someone who occasionally wears panties, or dresses up, and someone living full-time, transitioning, or post-operative...And I firmly believe that as long as you are not harming anyone, you should do what makes you happy.

But I do disagree that any man who puts on a pair of panties, or a woman who likes to wear boxers, is transgender. It's like saying that because you eat a salad once in a while, you're a vegan. Or that, because you went to Bermuda and got a deep, deep tan, that you are now a Person-of-Colour. Or that just because you bought a motorcycle jacket, you're a biker.

IMHO, if crossdressers, panty wearers, and fetishists want to be included in the LGBT+ community, they are more than welcome. But I don't consider them to be transgender. Not a put down, or slur, just my opinion. YMMV.

I think you've nailed it Jodie.



I'm a Transvestite. I am not Trans nor do I consider myself that. I am not transitioning. For me it's all about the clothes.

Amen Linda

*Did I just say amen?*

[Jodie_Lynn]

Maybe this post is better suited to the transsexual section. I don't think this concerns crossdressers.

But it does concern crossdressers!

I sincerely hope that my previous post isn't construed to mean that I exclude CD's from the transgender label, people should be free to express themselves as they see fit and are comfortable with. Personally, I'd love to see the day where a man can wear a skirt suit & low heels to his office and NOT be labeled as a freak, tranny, pervert or deviant!

Before the Covid crisis, I attended a drag show at a local gay bar, and saw a magnificent performer. A 6' 3" image of Diana Ross in a skin tight sequined dress with hair and make-up to die for. I had an opportunity to talk with this performer, and his lovely wife, with the intention of writing an article for our local PRIDE newsletter. HE made it very clear that HE did what he did because it was fun, but that HE was 100% heteronormal, and did NOT in any way consider HIMSELF as transgender, although he supported the LGBT+ movement. HE had no intention or desire to alter his body, nor did HE feel that HE suffered from any gender dysphoria. HIS wife confirmed that her husband was "all man", except for the shows that HE did, and that she enjoyed helping him with his make-up and appearance for what they both thought of as entertainment. Seeing him without the make-up, wig and femme clothes, I pulled his wife to the side and told her that she better keep a tight grip on him, cuz he was HOT! We laughed, hugged and I wished them goodnight as they left.

So my drag performer friend and his wife DON'T consider him to be transgender, but a lot of other people would. So in the end, it depends on how YOU perceive YOURSELF.

If all you do is wear panties, and you want to march with me in a PRIDE parade, I will welcome you with a smile, walk with you arm-in-arm, and even let you buy me a drink or 3 afterwards. :)

As I have in my sig, "Labels belong on boxes, NOT on people"

[Linda E. Woodworth]

Cheryl T you hit the nail on the head.

A BIG reason I left the local group was their bias towards only Transgendered. If you were not Transitioning you were looked down upon, verbal put down and made to feel unwelcome.

I remember calling myself the "lone transvestite". Nobody else in the group got it. They'd already driven all the other CD's away. That was the reputation the group had before I joined. It was the reputation while I was there and who knows about now since I could care less and don't follow them.

[Helen_Highwater]

While I appreciate tat there are various facets to the Gay community as an idea to "sell" to the public it appears a cohesive group of people. The public can grasp the fundamental of what being Gay is about. It's a simple notion. This enabled organisations like Stonewall to campaign with a fairly simple message. Without a doubt groups such as ours has benefited from their success. All was going well then........

The issue of young children self identifying as someone of the opposite sex and the use of puberty blockers arose in the press. This was ammunition to the doubters. This amounted to child abuse in their eyes and those cynics and critics became more vocal. Now for many the notion of gender being anything other than binary is utterly abhorrent.

Hence, and I'm not saying this is the only issue, Trans rights have taken a bit of a backward step in certain quarters.

Going back to my point the Gay is a simple selling point, Trans is a much harder sell. CD/Gender Fluid/Trans gender/Full time non Trans/fetish dressers, we here all know just how diverse a church we are. I would say it's nearly impossible to sell the concept as it stands, more that what needs to be promoted is simple acceptance that some people are different and don't conform to old rules. Just as Covid has brought about a "New Normal" in remote working, what's needed is a shift away from the rules that society has carried with it for centuries.

[Aunt Kelly]

I'll say it again... No person or group owes you any special understanding or accommodation. A group set up for CD's (Tri-Ess, for example) should not be expected to let transsexuals drive their agenda. By the same token, CD's should not expect a TS support group to accommodate them. Yes, yes... We are all under the TG "umbrella", but we most certainly are not the same.

[Teresa]

Sidney,
The first problem with your rant is you are mixing sexuality with gender . The L , G component is about sexual prefences the T component is more to do with gender . On the whole people concern themselves more with the sexuality of the person rather than what gender they claim to be .

Your comments on Trans acceptance are possibly based on your experiences , I consider myself TG and as we all know that isn't a small box but a large segmented one and that is part of our problem , we sometimes try and describe ourselves in a variety of ways which not only confuses us at times and certainly confuses the general public .

I personally have no problems at all with being accepted in the RW , I appreciate and respect those that choose not to step out of the closet but the T component of LGBTQ community will only gain respect and acceptance by stepping out in the RW just like the L , G , B people do .

[SaraLin]

While part of a Tri-Ess group (support for hetero CD's and spouses) I was exposed to other groups, some comprised mainly of transexuals. There was a distinct bias against those of us were not Trans. It was as if we were lower class and not as good as them. I'm not saying all feel this way, I'm saying those I encountered did.


If this is truly what they thought or felt, how sad.
But - in their defense, I have to wonder if maybe it was just a clash of differing agendas.

I ask this because, like you, I attended a Tri-Ess group myself for a while, but I ended up dropping out after only a few months.
Why? I knew I "didn't belong" there. What I was seeking wasn't the same as what they were offering.
At the time, I was "hell-bent" on transition and wanted to be around others who could guide me around the pitfalls, tell me how hormones affected the body, getting a job as a woman, etc.
For me it wasn't about the dressing or the clothes.
Now, don't get me wrong - they were a lovely bunch of folks and I respect what they were (are?) doing. It just wasn't what I needed at the time.

I didn't think of them as "lower class" or "not as good as me". I just didn't fit in with them. I felt like a dandelion in a flower bed.

All that said - if they DID act superior or snooty, shame on them!

[Cheryl T]

SarahLin I understand how you felt you didn't fit in with the Tri-Ess group if you were focused on transitioning.
Our Tri-Ess was aimed at helping CD's and spouses come together and understand what all this meant to the CD's and help the CD's feel at ease with themselves and their dressing. At the same time we did have some ladies who went on to transition. They were still part of the group and welcomed but most eventually moved on seeking more.
I wasn't speaking of differing agendas when I mentioned what occurred at some of the other groups. I merely wanted to say that those I encountered didn't extend the welcoming hand in the way we did for those that left our group. They made CD's feel that they were "posers", that they didn't belong since they were not transitioning. Certainly we didn't share their experiences, but we were still expressing our femininity and simply seeking safe haven and also knowledge to help us advance the cause of all.
There was one group that didn't look down on us. It was a mix of those just CD and those transitioning. There were round table discussions focused on the experiences, joys and difficulties faced by the ladies. I particularly relished participating in those and I was welcomed, not shunned. While my voice was different it was accepted and I learned much from those women. Not only about them and the world they face, but about myself and my corner in that world.
I simply feel that we are all in this together and if we segregate portions based on their ultimate goal we lose the variety that helps us grow and the potential support that can help us gain footholds in society.

Ok, that's my 2 Cents...let me have it....I can take it.

[Stephanie47]

I think a discussion like this only solidifies my thinking. If someone were to ask me what I am I have always contemplated not coming up with a one word response. I think in coherent sentences and paragraphs. To say I am "transgender" is totally meaningless. It's an attempt to put someone is a nice neat box.

I live in Washington State. My rights and those of anyone have been codified. In My state having a legal right to exist does not confer acceptance among the general population.

A little story about my wife. She was a woman ahead of her time. She belonged to the local chapter of the National Organization of Women. In that organization in our small city (by my standards as a New Yorker) there were women like her and on the other end of the spectrum there were "Biker Bitches" as they called themselves. When she announced she was pregnant with our second child she was offered condolences by many of the lesbians. That was the last time she ever attended a meeting. Now? Now her second cousin is a transgender man who is pregnant and everyone is happy for her......or so I think.

Don't let anyone force you into a convenient box.

[Genifer Teal]

I think the right trans people want is to legally change their documentation and be properly recognized for the gender they are. Why would a trans person need special recognition to marry if men can marry men and women can marry women?

[Jacqueline Vivaldi]

This discussion has appeared here many times previously. I think that all of us should just chill out and enjoy the category that we have chosen for ourselves. In my view we are all on the continuum of a gender rainbow where at one end is the most dainty and feminine GG and the other the hairy, beer guggling GM sex fiends. All of us here are somewhere in between. I suggest that the various labels that we use as trans people are solely for the purpose of informing our friends here and elsewhere exactly who we are. This information should be used by others to determine whether they wish to have some interaction or relationship with you. The information should always be used and applied in a caring and positive way. There are some who articulate the various categories and and place a value on the different levels and sometimes use the information in a negative ways. Let's just ignore these morons. I am please to tell you that I am a long time crossdresser, who loves to feel pretty and feel very feminine. After much thought I have decided against either surgery or hormones. I love men and enjoy their company and also enjoy encounters with crossdressers with my similar interests.

This is not very complicated. We simply need to use the various labels to identify ourselves to others in a positive way, and just stop there. Enjoy being exactly who you are at your present stage of evolution. You will evolve. Now, let's all pour a nice ruby red glass of French Pinot Noir and interact positively with whatever label we choose.

[Dianeob]

Going back to original post, why hasn’t the T community achieved the level of acceptance and legal protections as the Lesbian and gay communities, I think there are a couple of reasons that are more relevant than any split within the community however it is defined. First, we are a significantly smaller percentage of the population than gays and lesbians. More importantly, we in large measure have not been “out” to the communities we live and work. My remembrance is the broad social acceptance of the gay and lesbian communicate about when people started living who they are openly. It is much harder to hate, to “other” groups of people when they are your family members, neighbors, co-workers. The progress we are making is primarily being driven by people who are living their lives openly, no matter where they are on the spectrum. I live a blended life to preserve a 50year relationship, do what I can to foster acceptance within the community of people have shared with but recognize that by not openly living my true self, I am contributing to the delay in fuller acceptance.

[SaraLin]

They made CD's feel that they were "posers", that they didn't belong since they were not transitioning.

So sad to hear that. You're right. Their behavior was inexcusable.
What I posted was just wondering if perhaps you'd misunderstood their intent, but it sure doesn't sound like it.
My apologies.

[suzanne]

I so hate boxes. People are constantly trying to fit everyone into binaries. Either you are a one (you fit the box) or a zero (you don't fit). Life and the world are not black and white. They are grayscales or even multidimensional color scales. Its tragic that the T's or any of the flag colors are acting like mean girls deciding who can eat lunch at the cool kids table.

CD's like us have a problem that many other groups do not. We are invisible to the public because the highest aspiration of many members is to pass as women. That is, we are aiming to be unnoticed, indistinguishable from regular women. I am advocating for us to just put on that dress with no makeup, wig, or boobs and show the world how tasteful and presentable a man can be while wearing a dress and heels. Go about your everyday business, be yourself without putting on a drag queen persona and let people see were not freaks and more commonplace than anyone thought.

[Star01]

Maybe this post is better suited to the transsexual section. I don't think this concerns crossdressers.

I agree and have brought this up several times in as gentle of a way as I can. Their dominance of the cross dressers section is very intimidating for those of us at the start of this journey trying to make sense of it all.

[Aunt Kelly]

Their dominance of the cross dressers section is very intimidating for those of us at the start of this journey trying to make sense of it all.
Really... In what way to we "dominate" or "intimidate"?

[Jodie_Lynn]

I agree and have brought this up several times in as gentle of a way as I can. Their dominance of the cross dressers section is very intimidating for those of us at the start of this journey trying to make sense of it all.

Really? You feel intimidated the transgendered? Why? In what way are TS/TG dominating this section?
If you and others truly feel that way, may I suggest asking the Owner & Mods to make a "CD only" section.

[Teresa]

Star,
I'm going to admit I found some members intimidating when I first joined , they appeared to have a lifestyle I could never achieve . More importantly I needed help so accepted what was on offer and gained strength and confidence . Lets also not forget some members did put others down , you have decide who has the problem you or them , more often than not it was them .

Most of us are on one form of journey or another perhaps you might try and see comments not as put downs but trying to help you on your journey , from you comments I sense you wish to continue yours so the question is does the forum help you or not on your journey , would the formation of another sub-section really help you ?

[Star01]

If you and others truly feel that way, may I suggest asking the Owner & Mods to make a "CD only" section.

I thought this was the crossdresser section of the forum based on the the title of this section. What am I missing? I?m just limiting my participation to the section that best describes how identify.

- - - Updated - - -

This is, after all, the male to female crossdressing section and the forum does include a transgender section that I have looked at that IS NOT dominated by crossdressers. I don?t see myself as a bad girl for trying to follow directions and use the appropriate section for how I identify.

[Alice Torn]

After 66 1/2 yrs, having been a factory worker, in the military , gravedigger, caretaker of a quadriplegic, and many other things, i just cannot be other than the INDIVIDUAL i AM. I do not want to join any ?movement?, or politics power group. Sick of dependency and codependency. I am just me.

- - - Updated - - -

Jacqueline, Very well said!

[Aunt Kelly]

I thought this was the crossdresser section of the forum based on the the title of this section. What am I missing?

This is, after all, the male to female crossdressing section and the forum does include a transgender section that I have looked at that IS NOT dominated by crossdressers. I don?t see myself as a bad girl for trying to follow directions and use the appropriate section for how I identify.

You are missing the fact that both the CD and TS sections are not exclusive. They do have the very reasonable expectation that the discussions be related to their respective groups.

So again I ask, how have we "dominated" or "intimidated" the crossdressers in this section?

[cindylouho]

No offense just truth, you're coming off as a little intimidating right now.

[Star01]

So again I ask, how have we "dominated" or "intimidated" the crossdressers in this section?

Ridiculing DADT crossdressers for not leaving their spouse of fifty years so they can dress would be one that I rind intimidating. There seems to be a prevailing attitude that if someone is not going out in public dressed they cannot be taken seriously. Look, I knew that I would be singled out and piled on for even suggesting this and that it wouldn't go anywhere so go ahead and give me whatever I deserve and I'll sit down and shut up.

[char GG]

OK, the rant is over. This thread has gone more toward bickering.