Where is the Line?

[GwenHerself]

In your mind, at what point does a crossdresser become transgender?

[AllieSF]

I erased the line. With no line to think about I just did what came naturally for me, and here I am today about 13 years after starting to crossdress from zero, a full time trans woman, a woman, just getting on with life. Try it and you may just like it! That is, try erasing that line and let nature propel you or slow you down..

[Geena75]

Strictly my own definition, mind you. I think a crossdresser is a person who gets enjoyment from dressing up and presenting themselves as the opposite gender, at the same time being certain of their own gender. i.e. a man who dresses up like a woman for fun, but always knows he is a man and is satisfied with that. Trans gender is someone who feels they are, or should be, a gender other than their birth gender. i.e. a man who dresses up like a woman because he feels that is an accurate reflection of his gender. The enjoyment is because he is presenting his true self. I suppose I would have crossed the line when I believe I actually am a woman, not a guy pretending to be a woman.

[Cassiek]

Well put Geena. I love getting made up, dressed and feeling pretty. I also love being a man. Kinda like the commercial says. Sometimes you feel like a nut sometimes you don?t.

[Pumped]

I believe it is when you decide to dress full time. The admission, the commitment. Sure there is certainly some grey area before that, and not all the dress all the time are trans, but until you decide to commit, you are a CD'er or perhaps on the way to transgender. Can you be transgender and fully in the closet, never dress? I don't know.

In response to a pervious post, I am a man that has a desire to dress, it is more than simply for fun and enjoyment. If I don't dress for a few days I get agitated and miss it terribly. I believe I might be somewhere on the TG scale, there is something wired a bit "off" in my brain. I feel more complete dressed, but I face the realty that I will never transition, for many reasons, so I dress.

[Robertacd]

The line is within you, as it all comes down to why you crossdress.

[Ericka_d]

I agree with Geena 100%. Ill even add more that separates a trans person from the avg cd. The avg crossdresser I believe looks at clothes, personal grooming, overall appearance, and a few other things. A lot different then a trans person would. At least that is what I have noticed as a trans person. I get that there are cds that care about that stuff as munch as a trans woman, but I wouldn't really call them a cd. To me they really are trans.

[Leslie Langford]

Reading the replies to this thread so far, it strikes me that many here are still blurring the lines as to what the word "transgender" really means and are still using that term interchangeably with the term "transsexual"...not unlike the mainstream media and the confusion it often sows among the "muggles" as to what we really are.

My understanding is that the word "transgender" is a umbrella term that encompasses crossdressers, the gender fluid and similar individuals whose gender identity doesn't necessarily align with their genitals. Transsexuals form a subgroup within this category but with a significant difference...they suffer from a type of gender dysphoria that compels them to want to actually transition into the opposite sex as opposed to simply emulating them the way we crossdressers do.

Of course, there are many nuances and shades of grey here, but simply wanting to experiencing life as a woman is typically the preserve of the heterosexual crossdresser within the transgender umbrella, whereas it is the transsexual who actually wants to (usually physically) become a woman. In short, the transsexual takes the concept of "transgender" to the next level while the average transgender individual is content with the status quo once they get beyond the self-hate and accept their status as gender non-conforming.

[DianeT]

Leslie, I would tend to think that the ones closer to experience life as a woman would also be more the transsexuals than the crossdressers. It really depends on what you put behind this "experiencing life as a woman" expression. I think a crossdresser is only experiencing what he projects to a supposed woman experience, and I would hardly say life experience, more hand-picked bits of the experience. As for me, putting females clothes on "does not a girl make me experience".
And to answer Gwen's question, I think every crossdresser is transgender as we blur some lines between masculinity and femininity.
-- EDIT -- But since my wife educated me about gender studies, I don't believe much anymore in the transgender concept, since we are all on a continuum between male and female. Crossing genders means there are genders to begin with, and they are a social thing, not Nature's rules (Nature doesn't care much if we wear trousers or skirts).

[Teresa]

Gwen.
To me the outer layer shows the RW how I feel inside , I can't go round telling everyone I'm TG so my appearance says it all . I would also add that I feel that CDing isn't the right label when I go out full time because it's established my identity as Teresa .

Leslie,
You have a point , dealing with dysphoria is more to do with transition but as you say there are grey areas so i just stick to saying I'm TG if anyone asks , lets face it this question is only asked on the forum , it's a long time since I told anyone I'm TG because they don't ask .

[Brandi Christine]

Like Cassie Said
Well put Geena. I love getting made up, dressed and feeling pretty. I also love being a man.

But...

There are definitely times I can see me doing the same things I enjoy as a man, as a woman...

Circumstances keep me where I am, as a man, but were the choice mine... I guess that means I have crossed that line, maybe just a little.

[Georgina]

In my mind I don't need a label to dress.

[Angela Marie]

I wish I could point to a date; but for me it was, and is, an evolving situation. I do know a this point I am transgendered. Given my familial circumstances and age, 66, transition is not possible. I guess one way to look at it is if you feel like a woman even when not dressed that is a pretty good indication.

[Krisi]

Strictly my own definition, mind you. I think a crossdresser is a person who gets enjoyment from dressing up and presenting themselves as the opposite gender, at the same time being certain of their own gender. i.e. a man who dresses up like a woman for fun, but always knows he is a man and is satisfied with that. Trans gender is someone who feels they are, or should be, a gender other than their birth gender. i.e. a man who dresses up like a woman because he feels that is an accurate reflection of his gender. The enjoyment is because he is presenting his true self. I suppose I would have crossed the line when I believe I actually am a woman, not a guy pretending to be a woman.

That's pretty much what I was thinking as well.

[Paulie Birmingham]

Strictly my own definition, mind you. I think a crossdresser is a person who gets enjoyment from dressing up and presenting themselves as the opposite gender, at the same time being certain of their own gender. i.e. a man who dresses up like a woman for fun, but always knows he is a man and is satisfied with that. Trans gender is someone who feels they are, or should be, a gender other than their birth gender. i.e. a man who dresses up like a woman because he feels that is an accurate reflection of his gender. The enjoyment is because he is presenting his true self. I suppose I would have crossed the line when I believe I actually am a woman, not a guy pretending to be a woman.

Close . I dont think miads present as women but miads wear female clothes and are therefore are cross dressers. Just think about our very own celebrity miad.

[JennyMay]

It seems to me that crossdresser and transgender are simply labels for social constructs which don?t have fixed meaning. They are fuzzy. You can?t impose hard boundaries and say one ends here, the other ends there. I don?t know why I crossdress. There is a strong sexual element to it, but am also convinced that I have a a strong feminine aspect to my being. I have never felt that I was a woman trapped in a male body, but I do wish I had been born female and believe that I would have fitted in more easily if I had been. Perhaps if I had been born later I would have transitioned but I?m in my sixties now, married with children, and I don?t think it would be fair. I wear clothes made for women almost all of the time but - apart from underwear - they look like male clothes on me. In some ways I wish I was more clearly transgender - I long to be a woman - but this big bulky body is never going to look anything but male.

[GretchenM]

Geena's interpretation is very close to the technical definition of transgender. A transgender person is a person who self identifies, all of the time or part of the time, as being of the opposite gender from that which is expected based on their sexual identity. Obviously that definition contains a lot of gender binary thinking and thus not consistent with more modern concepts of gender differences that tend to minimize the gender binary and consider gender to be a pure spectrum or continuum with no divisions. In those concepts there are no lines to cross, there are no clearly defined genders, and gender is not fixed but is highly variable within each person depending on what is appropriate for the current social circumstances. So gender becomes a purely social and linguistic construct that allows us to talk about the subject but has no natural reality in that it is constantly variable not only in the population but also in the individual. That is, you have to call it something and have some kind of definition, otherwise there is no way to communicate about it, even though what you are talking about does not exist in the sense that you are talking about it. Very complicated, for sure, but it does prevent literal natural categories that forms a foundation for discrimination. Discrimination still happens, but it is harder to justify when one cannot find the divisions in the actual phenomena.

The more modern concepts of gender are mainly based on brain functioning and behavior which always starts in the brain and is limited to some extent in each individual by behavioral genes in the genome that establish a foundation but nothing specific. Brain plasticity (the ability of the brain, so to speak, to rewire itself) plays a huge part in gender identity shifting between predominantly male-like to predominately female-like with the boundaries set by the behavior genes the person inherited. In these concepts transgender, transexual, crossdresser, etc. don't really exist but are just outward changes in a person's social expression and identity. Thus, all combinations are biologically valid, but only some are socially acceptable depending on the customs of the society.

[MiraM]

I don't think one simply "becomes" Transgender, just as one does not simply walk into Mordor (except for Frodo). Being a Trans Woman or Trans Man is who you are, just like being Gay or Lesbian or Bi is who you are. It is not something you become. To me, if someone wears the clothes of the opposite gender than their sex assigned at birth but their gender identity is congruent with sex assigned at birth then they are not a Trans Woman or Trans Man (or to use the old terminology Transsexual), they are a cross dresser. If that person later realizes that he/she does identify as the opposite gender or no gender at all, or somewhere in between, they have not 'become' anything. It is a realization of their 'true' self for lack of a better term. And yes, there are Trans Women/Men that can live their entire life without transitioning for whatever reasons, just as there are Gay/Lesbian people who can suppress their sexual identity, with varying degrees of success. For a lot of people this works. When a person transitions or identifies as the opposite gender but does not transition, they are not becoming 'Transgender'. They are accepting who they have always been and doing what works for them to live their life.

In the simplest of terms, for me at least, a person is Transgender(Transsexual) or they aren't. Simple as that. I didn't become a Trans Woman. It's not something I especially wanted to be or even want to be now. It's just a (not so) simple fact that it is who I have always been and For me I have to take the steps to live as that person and bring my secondary sex characteristics as close as possible to reflect my true gender.

[GwenHerself]

I don't think one simply "becomes" Transgender, just as one does not simply walk into Mordor (except for Frodo).

You are speaking my language.

[kimdl93]

IMHO cross dressing is a behavior. In contrast, being transgender is an identity. I am transgender whether or not I choose to wear women’s clothing.

[Lana Mae]

The degree of Gender Dysphoria! Some have little to none-crossdressers and some have more-transgender(transexual)! This though is also a fuzzy line! You strive forward to fend off the discomfort of the dysphoria! Many do not even feel it! I am a pre-op transwoman! I would have the surgeries tomorrow but can not afford them! I deal with the dysphoria that causes too often! Just my $0.02!! Hugs Lana Mae

[Jean 103]

There is no line as they are one in the same , kinda, as a CD is a TG. I started a similar post a while back about, when did I lose my membership card.

The question is there a point when you are nolonger just a CD?

The answer is acceptance and knowledge.

Or a better question, is does this threaten yourself image?

And is there ever a point in which a man in a dress is just that?

Finally some have a need for a line. You can see it every time they launch into narrowing the definitions of words

[CarlaWestin]

In casual conversation I mentioned to my DADT wife that I was transgender. She replied, "No you're not. You're a crossdresser."
No line blurred there.

[Cheryl T]

Wow...there's a Line? Why haven't I been able to see it?

Wish it were that simple, I really do.
There are days when I feel it's miles away and days when I think it's so far behind me.

[Teresa]

Carla,
I had that comment from my wife she used it more as a put down .

Cherly,
I see it more as hurdles , we clear one and then have to consider the next , when I view that way I find I don't take many steps back .

[Star01]

I would add that some of us who are unable to dress deal with some serious dysphoria at times. Judging by my personal experience and how I feel I think it's possible to be some level of transgender but still able to restrain ourselves. I went into therapy in February thinking I would have all the answers by now but I found out that answers still take time to work through. My oldest of three adult daughters spent four years in therapy before realizing/accepting that she was gay so these things can take time.

I liken it to someone who becomes a heavy drinker at a young age. A common theme is that the drinking delays their maturity and they continue to make childish decisions. Likewise a crossdresser under restrictive situations beyond their control is not free to find their comfortable place and consequently do not mature in their understanding of their place in the gender spectrum. This is simply a conclusion I came to based on personal experience so I could be guilty of faulty reasoning.

I have read experiences by those who know they are transgender but are unable to transition fully or partially. There are some saying they know but can't transition for a variety of reasons. The way I see it those individuals who were in situations that allowed them to go further are able to sort all of this out freely which hastens their progress. Say for example someone realizes they are transgender but looks at the price tag of something as basic as beard removal which is step one for many. What is that, a $20k or $30k procedure from start to finish and that is just the first of many procedures. I would imagine that in addition to health issues preventing some from HRT that many simply can't afford to transition.

I am still learning so please correct me if this is a flawed observation.

[LilSissyStevie]

I think it's like asking where the line is between someone that likes to dress up and pretend to be a pirate vs someone who believes they are a pirate on the inside or in spirit vs someone who was born into and raised in the pirate life. I don't know that "lines" even apply.

[josie_S]

Like Cassie Said

But...

There are definitely times I can see me doing the same things I enjoy as a man, as a woman...

Circumstances keep me where I am, as a man, but were the choice mine... I guess that means I have crossed that line, maybe just a little.

I like this reply and I have thought about this a lot recently: most of who I am as "a man" could easily be lived and enjoyed as a a woman. I suppose the perks of being a man would be hard to give up, but then again there a re perks to being a woman too. But none of that is what I care about as much as I care that I'm learning to be less macho and more empathic, and less stereotypical male and more myself. I could see myself, then, living full time as a woman without changing much else of who I am already. Which probably means I've crossed that line too.

[CD Rachel]

I cant add much to what has already been said in this thread other then for me my reality is on one side of the line and my heart is on the other side. I do not know if I can ever be more then a cross dresser, but I long to be a woman.

Rachel

[Suzih]

For me, its wearing Women's clothes just when I feel like it, male in all other aspects of my work and family life. Suzih

[TanyaT]

I just love womens clothes!

can't wait for the day i can wear fishets and a skirt with stubble.

make up is fun to look pretty

[Rachelakld]

For me...... I'm not interested in being full time female, so I keep away from the transgender label

[ellbee]

I'll take this from a different angle...


How do *others* possibly see you/relate to you?


Do they view/treat you as just "one of the guys"?

Or, as gay and/or femmy? (I have personally run into this pretty much my entire life, probably for a myriad of reasons, for better or worse. :straightface: )


Regardless of how you may be presenting at the time, of course.

I'm talking about more of a vibe/personality thing, than anything.


GG's are more apt to relate to "regular" guys in a much different way, when compared to those of the TG persuasion.

For the latter, many may naturally tend to view you more as one of their own. Perhaps not totally, as they would with another GG -- but more as an "honorary sister," at the very least. Those who have experienced this will know what I'm talking about.



And to take it one step further?

Looking at it as honestly & objectively as possible... How do *you* relate to men, versus GG's?

Is there a legit comradery between you & the men -- or you & the GG's? Who do you feel more comfortable with? Whose company do you enjoy more? Who do you feel more at home with?


Personally, I can do both. I like both... Yet at the same time, I realize that there's negative & ugly aspects unique to *both* camps that I really don't care for & want no part of.

I do, however, typically tend to value & enjoy platonic relationships with cool GG's who are somewhat older than me. I feel a sense of them being an older sister or cousin... Or for those with a larger age-gap? Possibly a young aunt. All kinda showing me the ropes, with their vast insights & experience with the GG way of life.

They totally rock! :battingeyelashes:


But bringing this back to the OP?

How you answer from this angle, may help determine where that line for you may be. :)

[Teresa]

Ellbee,
So much of your reply resonates with me , You appear to have reached that point as I have where life is comfortable , people both male and female are OK with how I appear so I've slotted back into life as Teresa , what label they chose to use is up to them . We could question what line are we talking about ?

[Cheryl T]

Teresa,
I'm not saying I take steps back. I meant that there are days when I've crossed that line and feel so far on the TS side.

[Janet Devon]

Star01,
I don't know the costs but I agree that would be a logical reason why someone doesn't change when they want. I wonder too if most of us just don't want to lose what we already have? We have built up friendships, families and jobs we like and are fearful we could lose many if not all.

I started cross dressing perhaps as a 12 year old in a costume competition. My mother and sister helped me. I looked so good that the boys were hitting on me. They didn't know untill I told them who I was. I made the news paper and they said I had offers of dates. Oh how I wish I could either not do that day or started following up sooner.

[Star01]

Good observation. I was around 13 when I got into a couple boxes of clothes in the attic around 1964 so it has been a life long thing always in the background. As you say, the place we are at in our lives weigh heavily on our decisions. I would say that there may be more than a couple ounces of fear of the unknown as well. I think for people like myself holding back from our hearts desire can be exhausting and sometimes makes life feel like a dead end.

I think our individual levels of dysphoria come into play as well. I have a two page list of topics that relate to this thread that I am going to bring up in therapy tomorrow. That has been my goal, to identify where I fall in the spectrum of all this and to understand where it might lead me. It?s a fascinating topic and one of my goals is to find and understand where that line is.

[adelinapa]

The line, to me, is when you are unhappy inside with the gender you have been assigned. Not when you look in the mirror, but when you look inside yourself.

[candykowal]

It always amazes me on how many sub sections of TG is labeled and sectioned in something so common to us all.
I was watching a Youtube snip-it about this person who liked to present as male some days and female other days.
I thought to myself, that's what I kind of do too!
See.... https://youtu.be/fQGCS7FMbc0
This person called themselves "Gender Fluid" though in my mind that implies when presenting as a women, she would be attracted to a male.
Since I am heterosexual that label doesn't fit....Cross Dresser seem to be my fate though when I was living as a girl, I was definately Transgendered awaiting money to fulfill my destiny! Those were the days!

[Alice_2014_B]

A great lady-friend of mine described me as gender-fluid, I suppose that could be considered transgender to an extent.
I personally do not identify as female.
Could be partially transgender, don't know.

I do, however, use "transgender" as a hash-tag on my Twitter (as Alice).
I figure others can find me by said hash-tag to identify with someone.

:)

[CharlotteCD]

This person called themselves "Gender Fluid" though in my mind that implies when presenting as a women, she would be attracted to a male.

Gender and sexual preference are two different things.

[Ressie]

Cross dressing is a transgender tendency of mine. See, it's an adjective, but somehow there's an implication that being transgender means one is transitioning. In my mind, it doesn't have to mean that.

And there are degrees of transitioning. I've seen different degrees of it with transgender friends and acquaintances. The desire to dress in public 24/7 is a step towards transitioning for some. Taking hormones is another step. SRS is pretty much going all the way.

The line (if there is one) is different for everyone of us.

[Stephanie47]

The line is within you, as it all comes down to why you crossdress.

That I have not yet figured out! Lots of speculation but no definitive answer.

[Raychel]

I personally think that line falls in your mind,
If you feel that you should have been born with the opposite Gender.
Or have other issues in your mind that make you feel you definitely fit in that group
then that is where the line is.

For me, that line is a long way away. I am truly just in the crossdresser group.
I don't feel that I should have been a woman.

I like the look of myself better dresser in women's clothes.
Maybe a self esteem issue for me.

[tifftg]

There is no line as they are one in the same , kinda, as a CD is a TG. I started a similar post a while back about, when did I lose my membership card.

The question is there a point when you are no longer just a CD?

The answer is acceptance and knowledge.



15 years ago I went into therapy to examine how far the road I wanted to go and what trade offs I was willing to make (family, career, friendships) to perhaps be my true self. Part of what I discovered with my therapists help and I think it is still true. I am "just a crossdresser". It gives me great joy when I dress fully and that has become more complicated but is still a big part of my life. This forum is part of keeping me sane, thank you all.

[Edelia]

I think the line is the emotion, when I felt sad for going back to be a man, I knew that I'm transgender