Curiosity and Fear

[Geena75]

I have been dressing up on and off for years, but have never really done it 100% due to an unshaven face (which I've had for many years). I breached the clean shaven idea to my other half (who has never seen me like that) about 7 years ago, and she thoughtfully rejected the idea (I don't think she has a clue about my CDing habit). Recently I have been playing with make up and a mask to more simulate my female self. I've used software apps to remove the facial hair to give me some clue of what I would look like. Nothing has really discouraged me from the curiosity of what I would really look like, and if I might have a chance of passing. I'm wondering now about working on the clean shaven idea again (it makes masks so uncomfortable and so forth).

My issue is that I have an underlying fear of what would be the aftermath. If I cleaned up and did reasonable make up work, and if I looked good, would I advance in CDing beyond where I really should go? Would I be able to go back? On the other hand, what if I looked so ridiculous that I wanted to give it up altogether, purge and so forth.

The logical conclusion would be to just stay at the cozy level where I am. I would have to suppress my curiosity (not an easy thing for a very curious person like myself). What happened to the cat that was too curious?

[Teresa]

Geena,
It's you body , so it's your choice , who knows your wife may prefer the clean shaven look .

As for the fear of going too far , it comes down to how deep your need is but you'll never know until you try it . I doubt you will be put off enough to purge , if you do it will be short lived . The need to dress never goes away whether you understand the reasons or not .

At the end of the day you will still be curious so at some point it will happen .

[Stephanie47]

Obviously you know facial hair grows. If you shave it off it will grow back. Tell your wife you want to see what you look like 'again' with your face clean shaven. I looked at your picture postings and it seems you do not have a full beard. Your face masks do a good job of concealing it. If your wife objects and makes your life miserable you can always grow it back. If she is on board with the new look then you're ahead of the game. If you do not like the new you, then you can always go back. I do have one comment about whether of not your wife is aware of your cross dressing. She may know and figures if you have a beard you would not venture outside your home. Of course, Covid has given you a lot of cover.

[suzanne]

My presentation is "Man in a Dress". No breasts, no wig no makeup. Im not trying to fool anyone. I have a dear friend, who was once my favorite dress shop SA, that I go to lunch with about once a month. I always put together the best outfit I can and she tells me how beautiful I look. I reply that I'm not beautiful, I'm just well dressed. On a recent outing, I had not shaved in 4 or 5 days. So what, right? She told me she really liked the grizzled look. Who knew?

[sweetdreams]

Hi Geena.

I went through something like this about 5 years ago. I didn't have a beard, but I hit a point in my life where I needed to see how passable I could be. Up to this point I had been a crossdresser who dressed at home and occasionally under-dressed. The drive to go full tilt took on a life of it's own. I was compelled to see what I could look like.

First I had to get a wig. I emailed a local shop explaining who I was and what I was after. They said I am more than welcome to drop in. I made an appointment and off I went. I must have tried on 12 to 15 different wigs. An assortment of lengths, styles and colors. It took 2 or 3 visits. On the second visit I took a woman's blouse and changed into it at the wig store in order to get a better idea of what would work. Finally selected one mid-length sandy blond wig. It's good but afterwards there was a little Bob wig that I kept thinking about. I had to have it. I went back and picked up the Bob as well. I now have two good quality wigs. The Bob is my favorite.

Second, I booked a session with a makeup artist. I wanted to see what the pros could do with me. This was a good choice. Again I emailed explaining the situation. No problem, I'm more than welcome. They had one particular makeup artist they thought would be good for what I needed. She was terrific. She took me from a boy to a girl. First visit I went into a busy beauty salon. There I sat, the only guy in the place at a makeup station right in the middle of about 20 females all in the process of getting pretty. I was in drab the first visit getting makeup put on my face. What a surreal experience, unbelievable really. I went back two more times. On the second and third visits I was fully dressed, wig and all. Never a bad comment. I felt totally welcomed in the salon. Actually had compliments on my outfits. Aww..... I remember one point where my Bob wig was getting in the way. The girl doing my makeup took a bobby pin and pinned my hair back out of the way. One of those silly little things that made me feel really girly. Always hugs going in and out. I was just one of the girls.

On the second visit to the salon, I watched as most of my male features disappeared and my feminine persona appeared. I sat there mesmerized at the girl in the mirror. The more I stared, the more I was convinced that I was passable. So much so that on the way home I veered into one of the bigger shopping malls mid-day Saturday. I had to put this to the acid test. Yikes, what a harrowing experience. I was so scared. It went well though. A few early bumps but as I went on nobody stared or looked at me. Couldn't believe I was being perceived as a typical female, nothing standing out catching odd looks. Hey I was passing. Certainly a confidence builder. There was no turning back after this. Just crossdressing at home or under-dressing wasn't going to cut it. Still do it but now I can do so much more. I always like to have options open to me.

With all of that behind me, I have a feminine look I'm quite happy with. I've taken it out in public several times. I'm confident in my look. It's pretty good. I claim my place in the world. I can slip into female mode in about an hour and a half (makeup takes time).

Now I consider myself much more as gender fluid than a CDer. I can slip from male to female and back again easily and confidently.

In terms of it changing things (lifestyle, going too far, etc.), it hasn't. The breadth of what I do has grown, but I'm still a guy who dresses like a girl occasionally. Going farther is certainly fun and I still enjoy doing it. Playing with wigs, makeup and full outfits is fun and a much richer and rewarding experience. But for me I'm really fine with gender fluid. Slip back and forth as desired. I'm really glad I explored the extremes. It's opened up some doors for me and I've had some experiences that I really cherish. Wouldn't have happened if I didn't push the envelope.

Not sure about your financial situation, but getting the pros to help really made a difference. I can't imagine trying to learn about makeup on my own or trying to buy a wig off the internet. I also met and interacted with some really nice females who were fine with who I am and what I do. They were all so sweet and supportive.

[Geena75]

I dressed up this morning as fully as I ever do -- nylons, dress, fake padding, make up, wig. Mainly I was working at the make up. Got some tolerable results. Took a couple pictures for reference, included one below. My other half works out of the house so I was clear until at least 1:00. I did some posting on the site, and, seeing it was almost 12:30, so I head to the bathroom to get out of it. Hadn't even started when I hear the side door open -- my wife was home almost impossibly early. I swapped off the clothes into the bathtub (dry) and went to work at the make up and eyelashes (the bathroom is right by the side door of the house -- the only entrance we use). Do-able, but my stuff is all out in the open: make up and mirror on the table, shoes and an old wig on the chair in the living room, and camera on the tripod. Even if I was all cleaned up, that was all still there.

Fortunately, I can think fast. The truth is best, but just how much truth? I'm prepared for tell as much as we are prepared for. Cleaned up and dressed as usual, I come out of the bathroom ready for the question, "What's all this?" Opening with "I guess I have WAY too much time on my hands," I explain that I was really wondering at how I would look as a woman (true), and was playing around with it. When she noticed the shoes and old wig, I told her (rather truthfully) that I got them cheap at a second hand store. Her comments were along the lines of "you do have too much time on your hands" and "not going to do very well with the beard."

She had an hour or so when she is off to another client for the rest of the afternoon, during which time I heat up some lunch for her while she catches up with her daytime drama shows. No further questions or comments.

I'm thanking my stars I decided NOT to take a drive while dressed. And to further unexpectedness, some furnace guy stops by after she got home looking for some other house.

Now I'm bracing myself for the possibility of having "the talk." It may be that I have just graduated from total closeted to DADT. We will see what happens.

[char GG]

It probably is time to have a talk.

This quote is not something that a man who is not interested in CDing usually says:

I don't know that "I guess I have WAY too much time on my hands," I explain that I was really wondering at how I would look as a woman (true), and was playing around with it...."

Maybe she already suspects but after that encounter, my opinion is that you should come clean and tell her everything that is going on in your head. Maybe then you wouldn't have to worry so much about her coming home.

[Meghan4now]

Well, now it's getting interesting. I've read a lot of getting caught or coming out stories. This one is a little different. I have hope for you. Char makes a good point, but I would caution that you take her reactions carefully. She may be either more positive or negative in the begining, and shift some as she digests the new information.

[Sometimes Steffi]

Geena:

About 15 years ago, I was convinced by my wife, my brother and others to shave my beard. My wife had never seen my face without facial hair in the 30+ years since we had first met. I had read the book "The Second Serve" by Renee Richards about her transition from man to woman, As a young man, he had grown a beard to help him stop crossdressing. It didn't help him stop thinking about crossdressing, but it did stop him from dressing. But, as soon as he shaved his beard off, he started crossdressing again. That was one of the reasons why I was reluctant to shave my beard.

I went back to crossdressing in a pink fog, got breast forms and a wig, and did a reasonable attempt at makeup. I went out a few times on my own fully dressed, and then I met a bunch of CD/TS friends and went out a lot with them. I'm still "just a crossdresser" or maybe gender fluid, but I did not cross the line to TS. I only dress once in a while almost no one including my wife has seen both sides of me. However, I should say that several of my physicians have seen parts of Steffi, mostly painted toenails, but a few have seen the full blown Steffi, or at least pics of her. I'm still 100% hormone free, and I've not done any body modifications. I haven't even pierced my ears.

I like to think that we all got on the train at one point and we're not going to the same destination.

Sweet Dreams:

But I went rogue 15 years ago, instead of 5. I did just about everything you did.

[AngelaYVR]

In the beginning I once left at an eyebrow pencil. This is a whole other level. And do not think that because the water is calm that there are no crocodiles - guaranteed your wife is using 200% of her brain on this right now.

[Natalie5004]

Hi Geena.

I went through something like this about 5 years ago. I didn't have a beard, but I hit a point in my life where I needed to see how passable I could be. Up to this point I had been a crossdresser who dressed at home and occasionally under-dressed. The drive to go full tilt took on a life of it's own. I was compelled to see what I could look like.

First I had to get a wig. I emailed a local shop explaining who I was and what I was after. They said I am more than welcome to drop in. I made an appointment and off I went. I must have tried on 12 to 15 different wigs. An assortment of lengths, styles and colors. It took 2 or 3 visits. On the second visit I took a woman's blouse and changed into it at the wig store in order to get a better idea of what would work. Finally selected one mid-length sandy blond wig. It's good but afterwards there was a little Bob wig that I kept thinking about. I had to have it. I went back and picked up the Bob as well. I now have two good quality wigs. The Bob is my favorite.

Second, I booked a session with a makeup artist. I wanted to see what the pros could do with me. This was a good choice. Again I emailed explaining the situation. No problem, I'm more than welcome. They had one particular makeup artist they thought would be good for what I needed. She was terrific. She took me from a boy to a girl. First visit I went into a busy beauty salon. There I sat, the only guy in the place at a makeup station right in the middle of about 20 females all in the process of getting pretty. I was in drab the first visit getting makeup put on my face. What a surreal experience, unbelievable really. I went back two more times. On the second and third visits I was fully dressed, wig and all. Never a bad comment. I felt totally welcomed in the salon. Actually had compliments on my outfits. Aww..... I remember one point where my Bob wig was getting in the way. The girl doing my makeup took a bobby pin and pinned my hair back out of the way. One of those silly little things that made me feel really girly. Always hugs going in and out. I was just one of the girls.

On the second visit to the salon, I watched as most of my male features disappeared and my feminine persona appeared. I sat there mesmerized at the girl in the mirror. The more I stared, the more I was convinced that I was passable. So much so that on the way home I veered into one of the bigger shopping malls mid-day Saturday. I had to put this to the acid test. Yikes, what a harrowing experience. I was so scared. It went well though. A few early bumps but as I went on nobody stared or looked at me. Couldn't believe I was being perceived as a typical female, nothing standing out catching odd looks. Hey I was passing. Certainly a confidence builder. There was no turning back after this. Just crossdressing at home or under-dressing wasn't going to cut it. Still do it but now I can do so much more. I always like to have options open to me.

With all of that behind me, I have a feminine look I'm quite happy with. I've taken it out in public several times. I'm confident in my look. It's pretty good. I claim my place in the world. I can slip into female mode in about an hour and a half (makeup takes time).

Now I consider myself much more as gender fluid than a CDer. I can slip from male to female and back again easily and confidently.

In terms of it changing things (lifestyle, going too far, etc.), it hasn't. The breadth of what I do has grown, but I'm still a guy who dresses like a girl occasionally. Going farther is certainly fun and I still enjoy doing it. Playing with wigs, makeup and full outfits is fun and a much richer and rewarding experience. But for me I'm really fine with gender fluid. Slip back and forth as desired. I'm really glad I explored the extremes. It's opened up some doors for me and I've had some experiences that I really cherish. Wouldn't have happened if I didn't push the envelope.

Not sure about your financial situation, but getting the pros to help really made a difference. I can't imagine trying to learn about makeup on my own or trying to buy a wig off the internet. I also met and interacted with some really nice females who were fine with who I am and what I do. They were all so sweet and supportive.


Thank you for that story. I feel I will follow in your footsteps.

Geena 75 You looked nice. I like the wig.

[Geena75]

Well, this day is over. I've decided to leave the ball in her court, but will be forthcoming if she asks. So far, she has let the matter drop. I'm presuming she is thinking about it, but not pursuing it at present. Having 'the talk' may be on hold for a while. A serious discussion would be both a dread and relief. In the mean time, I'll go along as before, but with more caution.

[JulieB]

Show your wife the info/videos on how facial hair can hold germs and other nasty stuff, she will tell you to get rid of the facial hair, primarily referring to beards/ Go-tees. As stated before it always grows back. Good luck to you!

[GretchenM]

I agree with Char, it is very likely time for the talk. And by the way, you look quite presentable as a woman. I suspect your wife is mulling over what she saw and what you said and more likely than not she is coming up with all kinds of conclusions that are usually wrong. In my opinion, it is time for you to bring it up as your explanation for why all that girl stuff was laying around is not really very credible. You need to set the record straight before she starts thinking the worst and decides something really undesirable is going on as in, "Maybe my husband is gay?" It would be wise to put a cap on it all now and come out with the truth - your gender is changeable. Geena has been discovered and now it is time to tell your wife who she is, what she is, and what part she plays in your total being. Then seek compromises and listen very carefully to her concerns and answer her questions honestly.

[fireandlace]

Wow,

What a perfect thread for me to be reading. I have had facial hair for 34 of the last 35 years. I grew a mustache at age 20 because a lot of firefighters wore mustaches. At age 23 I shaved it off briefly during a pink fog period. I had been cross dressing since around 10 or 12 and had used my mom’s makeup in my teens.

I started dating my now wife and the pink fog went away, purged and moved on from cross dressing. Sound familiar to anyone else? When the urge and need came back I kept the mustache. I did it because I knew with it I wouldn’t be tempted to use make up. It acted as a preventative to keep me from being caught by not removing all the make up.

Since I retired five years ago I have added a goatee most of the time. This was mainly due to male vanity, it helped hide my extra chin. I do shave that off occasionally but the mustache stays.

For years I made a promise to myself that if I lots a certain amount of weight I would shave it all off and treat myself to a make over. I lost the weight and now I am trying to pull the trigger on it. My wife has stated her opposition to me shaving it off. She doesn’t know about the cross dressing but based on some comments I think she may suspect.

I recently came out to a woman I know who sells makeup and she has offered to do mine. I am considered having her just do my eyes and use a mask to cover my facial hair. I have wig coming today, my first, with the weight loss a favorite dress fits great now. All I need now is some courage.

[Krisi]

I can only say that if you have facial hair, you will never look like a woman. In public, in photos or in the mirror. It's up to you if you want to shave or not. If you do and don't like it, the hair will grow back. It's not like an orchiectomy.

Like most males, I have to shave every morning but I have not had facial hair in 40 years or so. A shave, a wig and a bit of makeup and I look like a woman in the mirror. I like it. Boobs and butt padding fills out the look.

Bottom line is, it's your choice but unless you try shaving, you will never know.

[Star01]

I am probably way behind the curve on this but I heard that red conceals a beard shadow after the closest shave possible. I tried a reddish covering under my nose and around the beard area as my first step and it works. There are probably specific products but I use a lipstick with a red shade that I had laying around. I am perpetually thrifty and am always looking for cheaper work arounds that accomplish the same thing as high priced items.

[Stephanie47]

I'm waiting for the follow up post. Women are NOT stupid! It is not going to fly that you wanted to see what you looked like as a woman. No guy is going to run out and buy a wig, makeup, shoes, etc just for a moment to see what he looks like dolled up as a woman. Has the beard come off yet?

[Pumped]

My issue is that I have an underlying fear of what would be the aftermath. If I cleaned up and did reasonable make up work, and if I looked good, would I advance in CDing beyond where I really should go? Would I be able to go back? On the other hand, what if I looked so ridiculous that I wanted to give it up altogether, purge and so forth.


That is my wife's concern. Is a wig and makeup just the next step to where?

My thoughts are body wise I need a lot of work to get to where I would feel comfortable in public, plus a fairly deep voice, other things, way too much work to go all the way.

[Allisa]

O.K. short and sweet...shave it off and see where the chips fall. I had always had a mustache even before it grew in, than one day I shaved and wow who was that new person I see? Clean shaven took years off my looks, yes everyone noticed but I just said it was time to clean up my act. Yes there is an adjustment period to looking different but just like growing facial hair everyone adjusts to the new you. Maybe then when you get dressed you'll look very natural and one less reason to be anti Geena.

[Geena75]

I'm of the attitude that when thrown off, get back on the horse. I dressed today (basically identical to yesterday) and am enjoying it. My other half has a client until 4:00 after which she is off to the nail salon. I have an errand to run at 4:00, so it is a safety day. This morning I was occupied installing a new toilet for my father, then to town to get the plates renewed for the car. I had it all done by 11:30, so I'm taking advantage of the situation. I even went out for a short drive again (photo included).

I don't know if or when she will bring up the subject, but I plan on being truthful in any case. Mind you, her comments about crossdressers in years past left a decided negative impression. If she says it has to stop, I will do my darndest to stop. Our relationship is more important to me than this hobby.

As far as clean shaving, that idea is on hold in light of recent events. It would be an outstandingly clear signal of my intentions and could blow things right out of the water. And, despite the ability of growing it back, I fear that the gray hair that accents the dominant dark hair would become the dominant color, and dyeing would be too much vanity for me. Also, last night I showed her a picture that a photographer took of me and posted, with all sorts of embarrassing positive comments (some people like my looks) including about the beard. My wife agreed, that was something she liked about my looks. Admitted, it is my face, but she has to look at it a lot more than I do.

[prene]

I agree Allisa.

I am lucky I have very little facial hair and can miss days of shaving.

Good luck and tell us what happens

[Jillcder]

I had a mustache and goatee for 35 years around age 55 I bought my first dress little by little I added pantyhose, panties, bra & heels soon after I felt something was missing so i trimmed my facial hair and applied makeup a few months after experimenting with makeup I had the urge to go out in public but with facial it was a no go so that was it I built up the courage and shaved it all off! Soon after i dressed completely and out I went it was incredible and to think my facial hair was all that was holding me back. My wife was caught off guard seeing my clean shaven face I told her it was itchy and getting grey making me look old I have been clean shaven since. So I say go for it and shave it off you won?t regret it.

[alwayshave]

Geena, I hope that all works out well.

[DianeT]

And, despite the ability of growing it back, I fear that the gray hair that accents the dominant dark hair would become the dominant color, and dyeing would be too much vanity for me.
There's absolutely no reason a shaven hair would grow back a different color. When you shave, you don't take the bulb out and even with the best manual razor out there there's still some length of hair under the skin (hence the shadow you need to conceal. BTW orange concealer is better than red normally as it is the complementary color of the blueish tint of the beard shadow of white males. I don't know about other skin types). It will simply extend back with the same color (have you ever seen a natural hair with two colors? No. So.)
I have a pepper and salt beard since my thirties and I shave it when I dress. My wife doesn't like me without it so I immediately grow it back after. In two weeks and with minimum care it is back in the same shape and color exactly.
About your wife, if she doesn't bring the subject back then you probably should. You have a potential ticking bomb in your couple right now.

[LeannS]

Geena be very careful. I have had facial hair for the last 50 yrs. I have only shaved my mustache a few times. My kids would not talk to me as I looked total different.
My wife now loves facial hair. I have asked her several times if I could shave it it wasn't a no it was a hell no. She found out want I was doing and we had the "TALK"
basically the facial hair keeps me from going out. Sure it does with my little mask I go for a drive when ever I can.
I am not going the rock the boat on this one. But I do plan on having another talk this spring and see what I can do to see what I look like totally done.
but only with her blessing.

[EllieOPKS]

Geena,
Not trying to be disrespectful but do you seriously need your wife's approval to shave? Its your face, your body. Its not even a permanent alteration. Does she ask your permission to change hair styles or color? Just because your married it doesn't mean you shouldn't have your own space. It seems petty to me.

[Geena75]

Geena,
Not trying to be disrespectful but do you seriously need your wife's approval to shave? Its your face, your body. Its not even a permanent alteration. Does she ask your permission to change hair styles or color? Just because your married it doesn't mean you shouldn't have your own space. It seems petty to me.

True, it is my face. I'm obviously comfortable wearing facial hair, and (from what I have heard) am reasonably good looking in it. One consideration, though, is that I'm not looking at myself much (unless I'm being Geena). As the old poem goes:
I know my face ain't no star,
But I don't mind it,
'Cause I'm behind it.
It's the folks out front get the jar!
My spouse has to look at me more than I do, so I like pleasing her.

[MonicaPVD]

If you depend on permission from your significant other in order to *checks notes* shave your face, you have bigger problems that exceed the scope of this forum. Merry Christmas!

[DianeT]

My spouse has to look at me more than I do, so I like pleasing her.
Well said!

To EllieOPKS: as a matter of fact my wife asks me what I like when she is about to change her hair cut or color. And I ask her before shaving my face, because she likes me with a beard and I like her to like me, like she likes me to like her.

To MonicaPVD: to each her/his own, but I can't really think of spouses caring about each other as a 'bigger' problem. Merry Christmas too!

[Geena75]

Wonder of wonders. I breached the subject of facial hair removal. I mused that neither my spouse nor children have ever seen me clean shaven, so they couldn't tell how I would look. For that matter, I'm not even entirely certain how I would look, not having seen my chin for over 40 years. My wife's reaction is negative, she wouldn't like it. My still at home daughter, though, is enthusiastically positive about it, wanting to know when I'll do it. With that reaction, the wife, resigned, takes the "it's your face, so you can do what you like" line.

Clean shaven has been given the green light! My problem now, though, is when? Geena will definitely have to be fully realized for that occasion, so I need some alone time lined up, which would depend on when both the wife and daughter will be out of the house for several hours, and timing it accordingly. I will be looking for the opportunity.

[Debs]

Tell your wife that you would like her to have hairy legs and arm pits and she cant shave , what good for the goose is is good for the gander. Cant be one rule for one and different rules for the other.

[DianeT]

Geena I am afraid you didn't get a green light from your wife, but instead forced it on her (and used your daughter as an alibi, putting her in a potentially delicate situation with her mother). All this while the elephant is still frolicking in your room since she caught you a while ago. I suppose she can add 2 and 2 and knows exactly why you are doing this. So you are sort of rubbing it in her face while still refusing to address the subject with her in an honest conversation. How is this going to end?

Debs, let's put it a different way: if you have a wife, would you be pleased if she decided to let her hair grow all over and told you that it's her way or the highway? I have my doubts.

- - - Updated - - -

Geena, also I saw you mentioning a kind of DADT for your situation with your wife. I guess you know that unless you had a talk about the dressing with your wife, there is no such thing as a DADT agreement in place.
I think you are torn by different feelings and trying to reduce the tension by bending reality to your thinking, going the easy path of ignoring the situation calling for measures. This really looks like ping fog and can alter judgment. I worry that during all this time, your wife is probably aching and may feel abandoned because you are not taking care of her, not addressing her concerns.

[Debs]

DianeT, it would aways be her choice wether to shave or not, I was making a point that she wouldnt let him. So what if he wouldnt let her, bit of reverse psychology, make her think a bit of how controlling she is.

[Geena75]

Diane
You make a good point in that I am forcing it on her. Bear in mind, though, it is a one shot sort of thing. I've promised to grow it back promptly if she doesn't like it. If/when I would, there would have to be an opportunity to feminize during that time. I do care about what she likes and like to please her. However, if I was totally concerned about risking her displeasure, I would certainly not be cross dressing in the first place.

Debs
Your logic is there, but it can seem like a competition. Some years ago she had teeth trouble. I urged her to consider having the work done to fix them, but she insisted on taking the route of dentures. I could have cried because her special smile I loved was gone forever. Turnabout may be fair play, but I wouldn't want her to feel now the way I did then. At least my notion isn't permanent.

Thank-you for the advice and concern
Geena

[jacques]

hello Geena,
For you is it about the clothes or the appearance?
For me it is about the clothes, so I don't ever think I would shave my beard off. It does not stop me wearing makeup.
We are all different though!
luv J