Redefining fetish as a normal response to deprivation

[phili]

A lot of us have had or still have crossdressing experiences that would on first glance seem fetishistic- an intense emotional response to clothing, and dressing, and often an erotic component that seems like something we wouldn't want to be seen enjoying - on our own like that.

I think that is the clue. I think most 'fetish' behavior among us is a result of deprivation- in the arena of crossdressing we have no one to share the related emotional and sensual feelings with, and often we are deprived of time as well. Two problems and one solution- a quick, intense, erotic experience that leaves us feeling like something big happened, that we were alive, functioning, beautiful, sexy, or whatever we want and need to feel as human beings.

From multiple posts on the Forum I now think it is common, for the fortunate among us who have been able to get out of the closet and crossdress in ordinary life, to find that there is no longer the need for the solo imagineering that is derided as fetish. We find ourselves feeling like, oh, we are just ordinary sexual beings, with a particular gender, and are normally functional out in society where sexuality, or focus on our clothes, recedes to a normal level in the interplay with others.

I felt so relieved, and now feel that we can be justified in saying that for the most part 'fetishistic' crossdressing is just what any ordinary person would do under the extreme stress of emotional and experiential deprivation on so many fronts.

Your thoughts?

[Teresa]

Phili,
When I look back to when all this started for me at the age of 8-9 I wasn't aware of what was going on with my body , obviously I knew nothing of the various labels like " Fetish " . Something in my brain was driving a need that was linked to my sudden in rush of testosterone , at the time I was so naive the sexual arousal scared me . It wasn't long before the penny dropped , being dressed like a woman meant sex , of course it was more a solitary thing because there was also the shame and guilt that accompanied the experience . In my teenage years it became more wanting to share it with a female , I guess I was lucky I found two GFs that were OK with the dressing and associated sex , so it didn't feel wrong and I lost much of the guilt and shame , so if it was a fetish it wasn't a solitary act .

Roll on many years and the whole situation is now in balance the high of sex has long gone but the need to still look like a woman hasn't , I feel I am one of the lucky ones who sought counselling and came to terms with their needs , I know I now prefer to live my life as a woman , it is no longer crossdressing , my life is comfortable and in balance .

One question , is a fetish it only considered deprivation if someone is harmed or insulted in some way ?

[Aunt Kelly]

A lot of us have had or still have crossdressing experiences that would on first glance seem fetishistic- an intense emotional response to clothing, and dressing, and often an erotic component that seems like something we wouldn't want to be seen enjoying - on our own like that.

I think that is the clue. I think most 'fetish' behavior among us is a result of deprivation- in the arena of crossdressing we have no one to share the related emotional and sensual feelings with, and often we are deprived of time as well. Two problems and one solution- a quick, intense, erotic experience that leaves us feeling like something big happened, that we were alive, functioning, beautiful, sexy, or whatever we want and need to feel as human beings.

From multiple posts on the Forum I now think it is common, for the fortunate among us who have been able to get out of the closet and crossdress in ordinary life, to find that there is no longer the need for the solo imagineering that is derided as fetish...

Your thoughts?

You're quite right. For many here, it's all about the clothes, and that certainly fits the broader definition of "fetish". If you're feeling "derided", however, for having a harmless fetish, that's on you. You can't have it both ways. You either let go of the shame and own it, proudly, or you don't.

[Jennifer0874]

If I think back to the first time I remember wanting to wear female clothes, I was in kindergarten and really wanted to wear my sister’s Wonder Woman underoos. To me this couldn’t be a fetish, but an underlying need to feel feminine. So maybe something from our youth leads to the fetishization, but there is a deeper need to be feminine than just the fetish.

Dressing is rarely sexual for me anymore and during the pandemic is just daily life.

[Lydianne]

You're quite right. For many here, it's all about the clothes, and that certainly fits the broader definition of "fetish". If you're feeling "derided", however, for having a harmless fetish, that's on you. You can't have it both ways. You either let go of the shame and own it, proudly, or you don't.


Why do we care so much? Why don't we just allow them space to find out in their own time whether or not they are fetish dressers?


Any other category, we tell them "long journey", "own pace", "baby steps", etc. So why are we so desperate immediately to stick a fetish label onto the others?


It's certainly not done with the intention of helping them to own it because fetish dressers here are marginalised. There used to be panty threads on here a few years ago, and the rest of us sniped and sniped until it stopped. That's not in their heads. That actually happened. How are they supposed to own it when we ( a, heh, 'supportive' community ) do that?


Actually, . . . by them posting so much about panties 'n stuff, they were owning it. It's the rest of us that set them back.


I think there is a lot of desperation within our community to try to demonstrate oneself as more trans than the next. "Fetish" is used as one such crutch. Many of these are the same people who have had themselves diagnosed by a qualified medical professional, and they would have it no other way. If someone else were to try and tell them something about them, it would be rejected with fire and brimstone - and I have no problem with that. But then they want to reserve the right to diagnose others based upon reading a couple of posts.

Then some time later, some of those labelled people might get professionally diagnosed with GD. So where would that leave the labelling? The months or years of being sniped and marginalised can't simply be taken back.


Or we could simply keep quiet until asked.


- L.

[docrobbysherry]

Excellent post, Phili! However, u CAN have it both ways. At least I do!:devil:

When I arrived here after dressing in a complete vacuum for 10 years I was loaded with guilt and shame from both dressing and the self sex it induced. :thumbsdn:

However, with help from members here the shame and guilt vanished! Then, I began going out with other T's. And, when I'm out the sexual aspect of dressing vanishes for me, too! :hugs:

Now, I enjoy both fetish sex at home in private AND going out dressed with no sexual feelings involved!:thumbsup:

[AngelaYVR]

I agree, Phili. I’ve had this same conversation with my friends over the years, about how having to bottle it up has a direct effect on the fetish aspect. It is amazing how quickly those feeling evaporate once you are able dress more freely. Now the irony for me is that currently my wife is enjoying this as a fetish for her!

[Teresa]

Angela,
Does that mean she's taken to wearing a French Maid's outfit and killer heels ? Oh dear what will your neighbour's think ?

Lydianne ,
At times aren't we all guilty of that , I raise my hands and admit it !!

[sweetdreams]

I find I have two modes to my dressing these days. I still have the fetish aspect (dressing in certain girly things is still a big turn on). Once I started going all the way (fully dressed and out the door) I developed a side where the clothes become more of what I wear when I'm presenting as a girl without any sexual attachment.

Sometimes when I'm out in public as a girl I pause for a minute to pinch myself. In one instance I was at the bar with three young GGs I met that night. We were sitting and chatting like any group of girls do. I paused at one point and relished in the fact that here I was all dressed up in girls clothes, things that usually would get me sexually excited, but I was just enjoying being a girl. Wow. This was certainly different than my previous mode of operation.

[phili]

I was moved to write this bc fetish is most commonly used with derision or as an emblem of deviancy, and I am saying the behaviors usually called fetishistic exist because of deprivation from normal human interaction. And that they are rational choices.

As Aunt Kelly and Lydianne mentioned, panty celebration threads are a perfect example. For these members panties are thankfully accessible, and are a powerful symbolic possession and intensely felt pathway to the crossdresser's experience. It is the only real choice when you are very restricted, and just getting a pair of panties in our own hands is an achievement. We should encourage it and enter in with the spirit of 'panties are everything', since that is sort of how it feels.

Doc's example of enjoying fun fetishistic self sex alone may still be an example of something that arises from deprivation, IF Doc would rather it took place with a real person. But if it is just something we prefer to do alone to explore things we might not want to share with others, yet- I'd still say it is not really fetishistic, in the sense of distorted behavior. It is a rational choice.

i think it feels fetishistic because of the taboos we have been taught. "You can't enjoy that. Only the X people do that."


PS Teresa, I am not referring to any things people do to hurt or degrade others here. That, IMHO, is a similar problem- resulting from deprivation, but behavior is distorted to hide the real need.

[Robertacd]

I am going to copy my post from a pantyhose thread that was wandering off into the fetish discussion and was closed because of it.
-----

As always it all depends on why you dress in clothing that does not belong to the gender you were assigned at birth.

You can not ignore the fact that on these forums there is a spectrum running from "it turns me on" to "gender dysphoria". Or the fact the CD forums tend to skew towards the "it turns me on" end of the spectrum.

In general when a person wears a certain item of clothing because "it turns you on" or because it reminds you of what GG's wore when you were in puberty and discovered your sexuality, it's probably not unfair to call that a fetish.

-----

No need to redefine the word fetish, the obsession with clothing is caused by deprivation. But so many of us seem to deprive ourselves, worrying about what the neighbors or some complete stranger will think...

[LilSissyStevie]

I'm inclined to say that the opposite kind of suppression is more common. CDs will engage in all manner of suppression, rationalization, denial, and sublimation to squelch and explain away what is an inherently harmless "fetish" because they are ashamed of themselves. Not that they don't do plenty of harm trying to suppress it. Nobody is stopping me from doing whatever I want. My wife is "on board" with my "fetish" and I don't care to go out and mingle with the public even in drab. So suppression is not what is driving it for me. Suppression as an explanation reminds me of how some people used to try to explain homosexuality as being the result of being unlucky with girls. In fact, when I gave up all my delusions surrounding this thing and stopped trying to suppress it or rationalize it, only then did I get any psychological relief. I look at it as a sexual orientation like being gay or straight but different. It's a permanent feature of my psyche. It doesn't go away so I might as well enjoy it. Just like you can't pray away the gay, you can't pray away the fae.

[Pumped]

I also started dressing very young, I believe maybe 5 or 6 years old. I recognized at the time that dressing caused some reaction with my body, but I was too young to understand. I just knew it felt indescribably fantastic. Now years latter and many years of not dressing I started again, same feelings, but I understand them better.

As for the sexual side of it, my wife and I have a very active sex life, plus we are very open and pretty much nothing is taboo between us. Some things we have tried would make people shake their head, but keep in mind my wife and I discuss things we want to try. So deprivation doesn't apply to us. We are both roughly 60 years old and will "hook up" a few times a week when we can, too bad life and work often gets in the way so the "hook up" is often just weekly. We were on vacation last week and it was a great week! ;-)

[CarlaWestin]

Yep, Phili. The language as a tool runs out of words when it comes to explaining the subtle nuances of emotional response.
Like others here, my CD experience sometimes has to find a new direction or a street in the neighborhood I haven't explored.
Since I've had more time (something you touched on) I've come around to seeing that the inconceivable passing as a targeted goal.
Just because of its allusive allure. But I still enjoy my over the top Doc-like outfits and personas.
It's fun before it's art before it's a lifestyle before it's my identity.

[Star01]

I have done the same as many of you and my first experience dressing goes back to 1964 at thirteen. I spent decades raising four kids in too small of a home and was the sole breadwinner so there wasn't much time to think about that side of me. The biggest difference is that life got in the way and I wasn't compelled to demand my right to dress so I adapted and endured. The past few years of empty nest and now retirement caused it to all come back but I'm still in a very restrictive situation but did manage to start getting some therapy at the beginning of the year. I don't think of myself as any less of a crossdresser just because I won't put dressing over family, isn't long suffering supposed to be a virtue?

I do feel like a lesser member of this group as I'm not able to add to discussions about going out in public and don't really have any desire to. I'm another one who doesn't enjoy the night life, doesn't drink, my back and knees no longer care for dancing and I live in a rural area in a state where the bars are still closed. There is no night life right now even if I wanted one and my desire to crossdress and confusion about the whole thing has nothing to do with going out in public. If I had to stop shaving smooth I"d probably have a meltdown but not going out in public isn't a problem. For a while I got the impression that I'm not a crossdresser because I don't want to go out then I saw that some don't shave their legs and haven't pierced their ears, both things I have done. Then the question becomes who is more of a crossdresser, someone who shaves their entire body and gets their ears pierced or a hairy legged girl who goes out in public with clip on earrings? I believe that the answer is that they're both crossdressers that manifest it in different ways due to their individual circumstances.

I have sensed that some don't care for folks like me who are DADT and struggle to discretely wear panties and I understand how some might feel that way. I think many of you are very brave and I struggle to assert myself so in that sense I am a victim of my own personality. I have come to look at it differently and have a greater appreciation for those who pave the way for us more reserved ones.

[c2candice]

Hi Phili. Really get topic of discussion. And something that I have wrestled with a lot, and still do really.

I started at a very young age. Dressing and playing as the housewife, in a game of ?house? in neighbours basement. Using a chest of clothes that contained heels, wig, flowy dresses. This was years before I discovered my sexuality. I don?t know why I gravitate towards that character. Not sure if it was the clothes, the feminine ?being? or what. It just felt good, so I did it. I also remember wanting to play with Barbie dolls. Not understanding why the other boys weren’t into it. I also did good Canadian kid things like hockey. Watched WWF wrestling and play wrestled.

Fast forward a few years later after I discovered my sexuality. I find myself in moms dresser playing with hosiery, shoes, dresses, some makeup. Hormones on fire and it always turned into just a fetish like thing. Guilt, shame. Confusion.

Fast forward about a decade and experiment here and there with girlfriends stuff at the fetishistic level. Not ever fully dressed. One of my biggest regrets in life was not experimenting further (fully dressed) as a young bachelor. I was too afraid of what will happen. Numbing the feeling with porn.

Fast forward to being engaged. I felt that I was in a position where I HAD to figure this feeling out before I got married. I thought here we go.. I am going to dress fully and then see if it?s truly a part of me, or I just stuff the feeling down again. I dress in the most passable way possible. It felt great. And wrong at the same time. It ended in the fetishistic way all of the time. Sometimes it wasn?t sexual. I did get to the point of just ?being? dressed up. But there was always some sexual component to it. I was scared of that experience. Still deeply confused. I decided ?nope, not for me thanks? and got rid of everything. Got married, and thought that was the end of it. I will have a wife that I loved and was deeply attracted to. That will fix me, I thought.

Well that lasted no more than 2 years. Found the overwhelming call again to the pink-side. So much more regret this time. Shame, guilt now that I?m married. Paralyzed by fear now of being found out.

Well I didn?t have to muster the courage to tell her. She found my photos on a laptop by accident. Yes, even the NSFW ones. It was all out there.

Now it?s in the open. She?s open and accepting. We had a lot of therapy for just a generally sexless life as well. I have this issue, which I believe stifled my whole mojo. And my wife has other stuff that I won?t go into. Things are better, but I?ve been avoiding the dressing issue altogether. Just saying that it hasn?t been on my mind. Well it mostly hasn?t. It?s always there. I?m very good at stuffing it. I?m still confused about where this is going to go. I don?t know if it?s going to be a fetish thing. I don?t know if it?s going to morph into just a comfort of ?sense of being feminine? thing. I get the sense that it?s going to be both. I?m grateful that my wife is accepting. I?m a work in progress. I?ve shared this all with my wife too. I think she?s just waiting for me to play the next move. See where I want to take the next dance step. Funny thing is that I hate leading at ballroom dancing. No surprise there..

More to your point though, I get the sense that yes there is a desire to be feminine. And I am both attracted to and want to be it at the same time. So there is that inherent overlap. I see a smartly dressed woman. Not necessarily overtly sexual, and I?m like yeah that outfit goes so well together. What a great mix of patterns, colours. How the jewelry complements everything. The way she sways her hips. How her ponytail bounces. I am, no doubt, attracted to that. I also want to embody it at the same time. The cross over is almost inevitable. I think it?s a mere consequence of testosterone in the mix of wanting to express our feminine side.

Now how do I remove the shame and guilt? I remove the shame by being ?ok? with it. Accepting that it?s within the bounds of ?normal?. It?s not harming anybody (except when it?s hidden). The guilt will hopefully dissolve when my wife is part of the process, or at least aware of it to the fullest extent.

I?m working on it all anyways!

[Gillian Gigs]

I think that fetishes get a bad rap. If a guy was only interested in wearing cowboy hats, it would be no big deal, but if he wanted to wear panties, that's different, why? Each culture has its taboos and accepted behaviours. From a sexual point of view, if a couple agreed to wanting sex after a particular fashion, then that is their business and society has no business telling them what they should, or shouldn't be doing. Too many people in society have a problem and they make it your problem, which is BS.
No one gets out of this life without some damage happening, so we are all damaged goods in one form, or another. I was wearing lingerie long before I realized that there may be a sexual component to the dressing in lingerie. I was a child of the 60's and most boys tended to learn about sex from Playboy and other similar magazines. Who was there to talk to, people didn't talk about sex, as it was embarrassing to talk about it. By the time I realized what was going on, I was already well down the road toward Fetishville. This has not stopped me from living a good life and raising a healthy family.
If there is anything that has hindered my life it was the shame, guilt and embarrassment that came from a society which was placing their values on me. Funny how you can be such a good citizen in so many areas, and one little thing can upset the apple cart! Many of us learned to adapt by underdressing, wearing the clothes only at home and hopefully having an accepting wife. It's amazing how good one can get at covering their tracks.
I'm not sure that a fetish is the result of deprivation, but that would probably need some self examination/experimentation. I do know that I used obsess about panties, and the obsession dropped off after wearing them all of the time. The more I wear my skirts, lingerie and hosiery the less sexual it has become, but I'm much older now, and this could be because of growing older!
One short coming in human nature is to make oneself feel better by looking at other peoples weaknesses and saying that at least I am not like them. We are all damaged goods in one form, or another. We need to stop judging others, and accept one another no matter the damage. Even on this site! It shouldn't matter which spectrum we are in, or were we are on it.

[Amelia_Rose]

I think part of it is that it's in our DNA to judge/shun anything different from our own perceived "normal". Some people are better at overriding this than others. Is that an excuse? No, but it is an explanation. I know I'm guilty of judging...even those within the crossdressing community. I'll find myself shaking my head at someone's post/pictures, and then stop and shake my head at myself. I try to remind myself that just like society judges me for what I do, they are judging this person too, so I don't really need to add to that do I?

Some of us are in this for the fashion, some of us are looking to transition to the opposite gender. Some of us want to just blur the lines between the genders. Some of us just like wearing women's underwear. I know of someone who only wears fancy petticoat dresses. Some people feminize their voices, others doll themselves up but still talk in a burly lumberjack voice. There are men with beards in wedding dresses, and GGs in men's sport coats. Some of us love/are attracted to women, some to men, some to CDs, some to all of the above, some to none at all. But we all have something in common. We're just people trying to live a life...

[Felicia M]

Excellent topic and thread Phili.

I can definitely relate. I have often thought so much of this experience for me was also the depravation of any real role models or real world examples as I evolved during my teenage years in the late 70's and early 80's and growing up in a small town in the Midwest. My god my experience was a literal desert. The hetero normative sexual and life experiences were the only ones available. And yet I would steal away whenever possible to my mothers closet to wear and enjoy the part of me that I truly desired. But the idea that this was something I could literally do or be in the world was almost completely removed from my life experience.

Fast forward 30 years and after tying to fulfill what I thought was my hetero normative inheritance it slowly began to dawn on me that this entire experience of the 'other' was something much deeper and profound. Panties and stockings are lovely and fun but then there is makeup and clothes and shoes and....on and on. And all of a sudden with the explosion of forums and youtube it became clear that another me was possible. I could actually attain a look that was 'me'. And I wanted to be that person more than I thought was possible. It took a couple of years to process this and begin to come to grips with it. Each limiting thought or barrier becomes accepted over time with new experience and I think for me this is the most crucial part of the journey. Curiosity and questioning have opened massive new vistas. I am nowhere near the end of the journey but I am totally at peace with it.

So yea...I think depravation, in many forms is a huge factor in the beginning for so many. But I also see how the barriers are falling so much more easily for the younger generations that have access to multiple touchpoints of life and sexual experience and the questioning of gender and what it means begins to crumble. I'm hopeful that depravation becomes less and less a barrier to happiness.

[Aunt Kelly]

Why do we care so much? Why don't we just allow them space to find out in their own time whether or not they are fetish dressers?


Any other category, we tell them "long journey", "own pace", "baby steps", etc. So why are we so desperate immediately to stick a fetish label onto the others?


It's certainly not done with the intention of helping them to own it because fetish dressers here are marginalised.
- L.

That's the point I am trying to make. If you allow yourself to be "marginalized" because of something that is a part of who you are, it's on you. We don't get to redefine a term because it makes us feel uncomfortable. No... we don't. Trust me. It took me a very long time to accept that the term transsexual applied to me. It is who/what I am and I will not be ashamed; will not be marginalized beyond what is within my ability to control.

Look, I'm not saying that a fetish dresser has to be "out and proud". There are plenty of valid reasons for not doing that. I am saying that those to whom the term applies should stop being ashamed of it.

[Lydianne]

So just real quick . . are you defending the way we got those panty threads stopped?

- L.

- - - Updated - - -

Shoot! I would have loved to have had an answer to that before I continued :sigh:. Nevertheless . .



[-]We don't get to redefine a term because it makes us feel uncomfortable. No... we don't. Trust me.[/-]

Wasn't my proposal.




It took me a very long time to accept that the term transsexual applied to me.


And yet you want to take it upon yourself to force the "fetish" label onto dressers before their gender identity has been properly assessed and before they are ready. So I ask again: Why do you need to do this? Why can you not just back off and give them time and space to figure it out for themselves?




Look, I'm not saying that a fetish dresser has to be "out and proud". There are plenty of valid reasons for not doing that. I am saying that those to whom the term applies should stop being ashamed of it.


And yet when they are out and proud, we slam them. You talk about wanting it both ways.


I was just having a PM discussion about a former member here called Deebra. Remember her?


Now, I'm not labelling her a fetish dresser because I don't know whether she had GD or not, but what she went through in this community can be applicable to this discussion because she did talk often about panties. It generated a lot of discussion among people who could relate - especially new members wanting to get momentum with posting.

She used to post confidently and proudly. Exactly the way you're saying people should. How did that work out for her?..


She was not ashamed . . .


. . . but we should be :straightface:.

- L.

[VS Fan]

Interesting thread... for me the dressing doesn’t impact the frequency of “self love” ... that just happens when it needs to lol, dressed or otherwise. That said, the dressing DEFINITELY comes from a deprivation of emotional connection and physical touch (not necessarily sexual, but intimate for sure). Although married, sex is infrequent, and non sexual contact is minimal as well. I’ve spent tons of money on dressing, massage therapy (legitimate kind) as well as beauty spa treatments to try and fill this void. And I say try because all of these things have boundaries... so I end up in one sided emotional affairs or the like... which just makes it all worse lol. *sigh*

[DianeT]

For many here, it's all about the clothes, and that certainly fits the broader definition of "fetish".
Kelly, I can't speak for the "many", but I am a long time crossdresser and this qualification of fetish for what I do is so anecdotical in the whole experience that it is confusing the tree for the forest. My experience is closer to this quote from Jennifer in answer to your post:

To me this couldn't be a fetish, but an underlying need to feel feminine. So maybe something from our youth leads to the fetishization, but there is a deeper need to be feminine than just the fetish.

Although I confess being fascinated since an early age by tight female clothing, there needs to be a female body in it, the object itself isn't a proxy for my attraction. At this point the fetish aspect of it becomes questionable, but of course it depends on which definition of fetish you take as a reference (in this respect it would be nice to know what you mean by this "broader definition of 'fetish'").
Why I want to wear something I find attractive in ladies, that baffles my wife since I tell her my aim isn't to become an object of desire. Like Jennifer says it is to feel feminine. But that still isn't specific enough. Feminine in what sense? I think every crossdresser has a different reason. Mine is to experience the intense trouble of (the illusion of) switching genders, the pleasure and freedom of breaking the taboo, the satisfaction of looking good (even if in a delusional way), and the soothing of immersing oneself in a sea of softness and delicacy. There's a fetish element to it, because my temporary transition is ritualized and catalyzed by the process of slipping into the clothes, of doing my makeup. But clothes, makeup, aren't the essence of it, they are just means to an end. Reducing it all to a fetish, to the clothes, is reducing the part to the costume. It is missing the whole point.

[c2candice]

Interesting thread... for me the dressing doesn’t impact the frequency of “self love” ... that just happens when it needs to lol, dressed or otherwise. That said, the dressing DEFINITELY comes from a deprivation of emotional connection and physical touch (not necessarily sexual, but intimate for sure). Although married, sex is infrequent, and non sexual contact is minimal as well. I’ve spent tons of money on dressing, massage therapy (legitimate kind) as well as beauty spa treatments to try and fill this void. And I say try because all of these things have boundaries... so I end up in one sided emotional affairs or the like... which just makes it all worse lol. *sigh*
Yes! I feel a deep desire now when I am alone. Either when my wife is away for a few days or weeks. Or when I travel alone. So much time not just to reflect on ones inner sense of self. I’m not sure whether it’s an attempt to fill the void of intimacy, or just more time to contemplate. Need some time alone to contemplate that question

[docrobbysherry]

----------------------------------
It's fun before it's art before it's a lifestyle before it's my identity.
OMG, Carla! Beautiful and perfect! That says it ALL about my dressing these days. Thank u!:hugs:


I can't speak for u or anyone else. But, for me? There NO COMPARISON in the sexual enjoyment differences!:battingeyelashes:

Remember, I'm 77. So, things don't work like they did at 50! My quickies mornings in the shower r nice. Fast and pleasant, or not at all!:thumbsup:

But last week, after finishing shooting some Xmas glamour shots of Sherry? (See my avatar!) I relaxed and became very excited.:heehee:

The results were incredible!:o
NOTHING like that ever happens in the shower!:devil:

[Bea_]

I felt so relieved, and now feel that we can be justified in saying that for the most part 'fetishistic' crossdressing is just what any ordinary person would do under the extreme stress of emotional and experiential deprivation on so many fronts.

Your thoughts?

I'm not one to throw the word "fetish" around much. The need to redefine the word in order to "be justified" defeats the idea of "definition" in the first place. I can "feel justified" to crossdress, but justification is like beauty. It's in the eye of the justifier. I can justify my behavior any way I want and can be denied justification just as easily by anyone else. From my point of view, I'm not trying to get justification. Justification will only lead to tolerance at best. What I'd be interested in is approval and affirmation.

It seems like a circular argument to say that crossdressing, 'fetishistic' or otherwise, is the result of being deprived of being able to crossdress.

I was a latecomer to the idea of wearing clothes that are typically reserved for women. Before I ever considered the idea of wearing panties, the thought never occurred to me that I was deprived. Wearing them, at first, did at times precipitate some 'fetishistic' behavior, but it wasn't deprivation that caused it. If anything, it was the novelty of a new experience.

What you might be describing is more along the lines of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs where it's stated that "once a need is met, it no longer motivates". That would speak to the idea that those who's need for perceived acceptance in an area are less inclined to be stuck trying to get that need met.

[Sunny_with_a_chance]

I definitely think you're right about that. I've similarly felt that thrill and almost 'fetishistic' part when I dress. There's a level of excitement and joy that I feel, but I agree that excitement is derivative of finally expressing a part of myself that stays hidden and is taboo culturally.

The less I deprive myself of my desire to express femininely, the more that subsides.

[Aunt Kelly]

So just real quick . . are you defending the way we got those panty threads stopped...


Wasn't my proposal....






And yet you want to take it upon yourself to force the "fetish" label onto dressers before their gender identity has been properly assessed and before they are ready.

Oh... So they're all just suffering from undiagnosed gender dysphoria. That's an absurd notion, of course, but you seem to be trying to invalidate a perfectly accurate application of the term "fetish" when it might, in rare instances, be applied to those who have some other drive. Fine, so stipulated, but that fact remains that for most here it is all about the clothes. Stop acting like they need to be defended.
Wanting to wear (insert item here) simply because it feels good does not deserve derision. Calling it what it is is not derisive.

[phili]

My post was a philosophical reflection aimed at redefining the common usage of 'fetish' from a negative label with the idea that someone has left the normal range of behavior, and with the implication that they are somehow defective, to a descriptor of behavior that is a reasonable attempt by an ordinary person to deal with deprivation of experiences they reasonably need- whether it is simply sensual enjoyment of our clothes, or feeling like we are sexually desirable in a particular way, or that want to feel vivacious, or more interesting, or whatever we are missing.

I approached the question from the standpoint of the social norm that a masculine presenting man who has a secret preoccupation with panties is pathological. I am saying what is pathological is the social framework that deprives him of the experiences he is seeking. He is doing what he can do to try to experience himself as whole. He is suffering, and can't even see well what he is missing, but the panties help.


Some of us mentioned how, as we accept ourselves and feel more whole in the emotional range of life, we are less deprived and it is a relief that we will often then not attach so much value to limited experiences.

But I do see that for many here fetish behavior, meaning intense autoerotic focus on some set of our clothing items, is just a way of really enjoying ourselves!

[Robertacd]

So basically you don't like a fetish being called a "fetish" because that makes it sound like something bad?

[Lydianne]

@Aunt Kelly: Many thanks for the reply.


Stop acting like they need to be defended.

That would be quite convenient for you because otherwise you'd need to keep thinking up more ways of avoiding the question.

But "unfortunately", . . . I decline.



Oh... So they're all just suffering from undiagnosed gender dysphoria. That's an absurd notion, of course, . . [SNIP]

Then some time later, some of those labelled people might get professionally diagnosed with GD.

Would you like to.. try again?




That's an absurd notion, of course, but you seem to be trying to invalidate a perfectly accurate application of the term "fetish" when it might, in rare instances, be applied to those who have some other drive. Fine, so stipulated, but that fact remains that for most here it is all about the clothes. Stop acting like they need to be defended.


You call application of a term that pertains to being "all about the clothing" to a group of individuals that could contain instances that have some other drive "perfectly accurate?"

In other words: "All about the clothing" ≠ "Some other drive".


You would have to take the "all about the clothing" at face value from them, but some individuals would not be aware that it can run deeper. They might initially think it's all clothing, but then they discover it's more. And you do know that, but you're willing to overlook it for reasons you seem not to want to disclose.


Instead of your blanketing application of the term, why not simply let each individual find their own path,.. as we already allow for every other identity. That way, those that are fetish dressers will discover that, and those that are not will discover that too. Then let them tell us.


Obviously, the massive downside of this would be that you wouldn't get to nail premature labels onto a multitude of people, accuracy-be-damned,.. but.. I think the Earth would just about manage to still go round 🌎👍.



Wanting to wear (insert item here) simply because it feels good does not deserve derision.
Agreed.


Calling it what it is is not derisive.

But this isn't what happened. The panty thread contributors were not just non-derisively described, otherwise they would still be posting today. The rest of us hounded them to stop.


..And you blame them for what we did:



If you allow yourself to be "marginalized" because of something that is a part of who you are, it's on you.

Quick question: Let's consider how women are being kept out of the topmost jobs in business and industry.

So, gender inequality in the wider society ( and let's throw anti-trans into there too ). Upon whom is that?



And for the third time:

Why are you so desperate to interfere? Why shouldn't people be given time and space to figure out their dressing for themselves?

- L.

[docrobbysherry]

So, a fetish is a fetish unless u don't like that term? Then, it suddenly becomes dysphoria?:eek:

Potayto, potahto?:straightface:

Folks here refer to me as a "fetish dresser" because dressing often excites me sexually. So, I have used that term to describe myself for simplicity's sake.:battingeyelashes:

But from now on, I wish to be referred to as "dysphoria dresser"!:devil:

[Lydianne]

So, a fetish is a fetish unless u don't like that term? Then, it suddenly becomes dysphoria?:eek:
Quote?



Potayto, potahto?:straightface:
Reading, Comprehension? :straightface:.


Folks here refer to me as a "fetish dresser" because dressing often excites me sexually. So, I have used that term to describe myself for simplicity's sake.:battingeyelashes:

But from now on, I wish to be referred to as "dysphoria dresser"!:devil:

Aww! Bless you, Doc! :itsok:. Here's a bouncy ball.

https://airconditioner.webs.com/images/Miscellaneous/BouncyBall_200x200.jpg

Don't let it get away now! :).

- L.

[Gillian Gigs]

Reflecting on my own life, during puberty especially, there was a clear fetishistic aspect to my interest in women's clothing.

my wives were generally pretty accepting of cross dressing so long as it was in the context of a sexualized behavior. What bothered them, particularly my second wife, was the prospect that it might reflect gender variance...something she could accept in others, but not in her husband.

Yup, that about sums it my when I think about my wife and I. As a teen becoming sexually active it was a fetishistic thing. After coming out to my wife, it was accepted as a sexual thing. She would refer to it as, my little fetish! Wearing the clothes without any sexual activity was not so readily accepted. It took much longer to get acceptance in that area. We have now worked out all our compromises.

[DianeT]

For many here, it's all about the clothes, and that certainly fits the broader definition of "fetish".

That's an absurd notion, of course, but you seem to be trying to invalidate a perfectly accurate application of the term "fetish" when it might, in rare instances, be applied to those who have some other drive.
Study protocol :

Contributors: Kelly, Aunt
Purpose: Find out if crossdressers are fetishists?
Definitions:

Crossdresser: a fetishist
Fetish: self-explanatory, broad acception combined with perfect accuracy will do

Method: educated guesses
Sampled population: a good some
Results: Crossdressing is caused by one of the following:

A fetish (vast majority)
Some other drive (rare instances)

Comments: And Bob is your uncle

[Aunt Kelly]

And for the third time:

Why are you so desperate to interfere? Why shouldn't people be given time and space to figure out their dressing for themselves?

- L.
And for the nth time, why is calling a spade a pointy garden implement "interfering"?

[c2candice]

From my reading of psychological definitions, gender dysphoria does fall into the range of pathology precisely because one is experiencing emotional distress because of gender issues.

1000 times, this. Once the distress to ones self or those around them is gone, it?s no longer a pathology. It?s an abnormality.

Normal is for chumps

[char GG]

Mod note warning:

Thank you contributors. If anyone want to talk back and forth only to each other, please take it to private messages.

[DianeT]

Oh the silence, suddenly :)

[IamWren]

I think there might be a bit of truth in what Phili posits that would apply to a majority of crossdressers and I say that from the number of posts I've seen here and elsewhere on the internet as well as from direct messages I have received. (Y'all CDers have some imaginations! let me tell you.)

That was not my experience though. What I gained from wearing clothing intended for women wasn't the pleasure... an almost high, that I've heard described of the tactile sensation of wearing certain fabrics and clothing. Wearing women's clothing and trying to appear as much like a woman as I could, gave me license to explore gender in a way that I felt I couldn't while dressed as a man.

Were there times when I was aroused when wearing women's clothing and appearing as a woman?... sure. I mean I think I'm pretty cute as a girl! But I also feel better about myself and my place in the world. I feel confident, the walls I've built are no longer there, I’m more fun, easy going and I feel sexy when I appear as a woman. (just for clarity... although trans, I do not identify as a woman. I'm an enby.)

I've seen in a number of places (although not from academic sources) that suggest that sometimes a feeling of arousal can come from those affirming feelings of confidence, strength, sexiness, etc. For me those feeling don’t happen because of the clothes though. The clothes have simply been a mechanism for getting in touch with who I am.

About those "what color panties are you wearing" or "show us your nail polish!" threads... Yeah. They're kinda cringy. But if I were to go through my history of comments when I first came here I imagine there are a TON of cringy things I said as I was learning about crossdressing vernacular and culture, exploring feminine presentation, and learning more about myself.

I’m no psychologist so I'm not sure I can speak as to whether any ordinary person who is deprived of emotional and experiential deprivation would engage in fetish type behavior. Maybe? Probably not. But hey... if you're not hurting yourself or anyone else, paying all your bills and taking of your family... who am I to judge.

By the way... gray cotton hipsters with a little pink bow in front. :D

[Alice Torn]

Yes, and in my case, deprivation for sure!! 66, still a virgin, never had steady girlfriend, starved for female beauty and touch, all my adult life, though i did get to dance with a lot of GGs at singles dances for 10 yrs. The times i went out dressed in public, i was wanting to be noticed, and it felt so nice, but got jeered at too. Now, I dont have much sex drive at all, and do not act out much anymore nor dress often anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

Well said Gillian! We are all damaged goods is true even if we cannot see it.

- - - Updated - - -

VS fan, You got that right. Lack of connection with others, isolation, deprivation feed all addictions. Lack of communication, and relationships is big hurt and we all need that, whether CD or not. Sadly, so many men lack connections wit others and i dont mean just physical or sexual.

[Aunt Kelly]

That was not my experience though. What I gained from wearing clothing intended for women wasn't the pleasure... an almost high, that I've heard described of the tactile sensation of wearing certain fabrics and clothing. Wearing women's clothing and trying to appear as much like a woman as I could, gave me license to explore gender in a way that I felt I couldn't while dressed as a man.

Were there times when I was aroused when wearing women's clothing and appearing as a woman?... sure. I mean I think I'm pretty cute as a girl! But I also feel better about myself and my place in the world. I feel confident, the walls I've built are no longer there, I’m more fun, easy going and I feel sexy when I appear as a woman. (just for clarity... although trans, I do not identify as a woman. I'm an enby.)



Thank you, Wren. It is this kind of clarity and honesty that is so often lacking in the posts here. Obviously, it is fair to say that for you, the term "fetish" is not accurate when describing your motivation or "drive". It is my observation that there are many here who feel similarly and who would justifiably bristle at the "fetish" label, but who are not comfortable enough to abandon the "...but I'm still a hetero male..." binary identity. I regularly see in posts here, the angst that comes from that conflict, and I get it. It's often a tough thing to recognize, much less admit.

As the OP (philli) describes them, "...the fortunate among us who have been able to get out of the closet and crossdress in ordinary life, to find that there is no longer the need for the solo imagineering that is derided as fetish...", are something quite apart from those for whom fetish is a perfectly accurate term. Perhaps it's my near pathological pedantic streak, but I can not understand why those to whom the term clearly applies insist on seeing it's use as "derision".

[docrobbysherry]

Aunt Kelly, I believe it was Shakespeare or Robinhood who said, "He protestith too much!":heehee:

[Robertacd]

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" is from Hamlet.

[DianeT]

I suggest to not feed the troll any further so this thread doesn't get closed or deleted.

[char GG]

This thread is done.