positive depictions?

[Sabine Janus]

I said in another thread that it's probably more accepted now to be gay or transgender than it is to be a crossdresser. Can anyone think any positive depictions of crossdressing in media? Positive things that aren't forced or for a cause(like bosum buddies or Doubtfire)

[Karren H]

My wife accepts our gay son but not his crossdressing father (me). And who is to say that most cross dressers do not fall under the transgendered banner? Just variations on a theme. 50 shades of transgenderedness? Pretty sure I do.

[Helen_Highwater]

Sabine,

Perhaps part of the issue is you can stand 12 males side by side and ask others to pick out the Gay one and unless one is wearing a rainbow tee shirt to all intents, gays are invisible.

Insert a crossdresser into a line up of GG's and......

It's also down in part to our community not having campaigning bodies such as Stonewall pushing the rights issue. We also now fall foul of the antiTrans rights drive taking place in various forms. We end up sitting in a no-man's land people finding it hard to classify us.

You're right in that it's difficult to find positive representations in the media. Portrayals of Trans have become more common and depict characters in a positive light. Crossdressing is still back with "Some like it hot".

[Teresa]

Sabine,
The important difference is a gay person has accepted their sexual needs and a TG has accepted their gender needs but it's questionable why a man would want to wear women's clothes . It's hard for some to accept them saying I enjoy it or it's just a hobby .

[Samm]

I agree with Teresa. I think it's the 'both worlds, back and forth' that makes it difficult for most people to understand.

[GretchenM]

Personally, I do not distinguish between transgender and crossdresser in terms of the psychological traits and characteristics. Basically, transgender is a behavior where a person self identifies, all the time or part of the time, with the gender form characteristically seen in people of the opposite sex. Gender, to me, is a process and not a "thing" that you have. It is the collection of behaviors that allows you to interact with others in a way that allows them to get a read out as to the nature of your personality.

Most everybody is a blend of behavioral traits and characteristics some of which both sexes use regularly and with equal frequency and those traits and characteristics that are more commonly associated with one sex or the other but both sexes can exhibit. Neurologically, it is never either/or except in, as studies have shown, about 2% of the populations which, at the time of examination, showed exclusively male-like or female-like patterns and none of the intermediate traits. Very rare and probably only temporary. If that configuration of gender is correct then you can't draw meaningful lines to divide the spectrum into distinct types. Plus it is all like a cloud - it constantly is changing shape due to brain plasticity and new experiences.

Therefore, by definition crossdressers are transgender. But there is no rule that says you have to live by the spectrum and you can separate yourself into a single group (crossdressers) for other reasons. Personally, I just don't understand why that is useful. Why associate your behavior collection with a separate group that is more or less frowned upon when you can easily associate with a group that is more accepted in society? Especially in light of the modern definition of transgender, crossdressers are clearly, in a practical sense, transgender. How does an observer tell them apart if they express their identity in similar ways? Can you pick out the crossdresser from a lineup of transgender people? I think not.

[Sabine Janus]

I've never considered my self transgender. I am male in my thinking and no desire to transition, not even a thought of it. I own this as my own and unique experience and honor anyone elses take on themselves on the "spectrum".

Its an interesting insight.

[April Rose]

Harry Styles
Grayson Perry
Eddie Izzard

[docrobbysherry]

That's simply ridiculous! Thinking the general public can distinguish the differences between a trans and a CD!:devil:

Heck, many of the people on this site, including me, aren't clear about those differences!:tongueout

[Stephanie47]

It's the "word game" again. I hate it. I hate the use of one word to try to explain very complicated issues. Society seems to have a grasp on the sexual orientation ascribed to men who are attracted or men and women who are attracted to women, and, those who swing either way. Forgetting the non-acceptance issues of those lifestyles and transsexual men and women, pre-op or post-op, I think there is mass confusion concerning cross dressing men. Personally, I do not like being thrown into the trans spectrum because it clouds the issue in the minds of the general public. It is easier to explain, whether it is accepted or not, that someone may be "born into the wrong body." I do not understand why I choose/need to wear women's clothing let alone try to explain it to others. I can state I like the colorful clothes. I can state there is an element of stress relief. But, why the need to wear a bra with forms? Or hip or butt pads?

Mrs. Doubtfire. Bosom Buddies or Tootsie are comedies. Frankly, I cannot even recall any news programs of heterosexual men living with a heterosexual partner. It's always a man becoming a transwoman with all the struggles a relationship goes through. Has anyone seen anything remotely about a MtF cross dresser..just plain vanilla hubby? I haven't.

[Taylor186]

The RuPaul's Drag Race franchise is still going strong after 13 seasons.

[BTWimRobin]

The media, in general, does not paint a good picture of CDs. They seem to use the CD community as comic relief. Just once I would like to see a male character in a TV show decide to wear a skirt and heels to the office with the same confidence and dignity as if they were in a drab suit and tie.

[Micki_Finn]

The RuPaul's Drag Race franchise is still going strong after 13 seasons.

Uh oh, here come all the Anti-drag comments.

But yeah, this discussion is going to get muddy because the definition “crossdressers” themselves use is generally different than other communities use.

- - - Updated - - -


Frankly, I cannot even recall any news programs of heterosexual men living with a heterosexual partner.

The Odd Couple? 2 1/2 Men? My Two Dads? Three Men and a Baby? Friends? C’mon, you’re not even trying.

[ReineD]

The media, in general, does not paint a good picture of CDs. They seem to use the CD community as comic relief. Just once I would like to see a male character in a TV show decide to wear a skirt and heels to the office with the same confidence and dignity as if they were in a drab suit and tie.

I had some time of my hands and so a long answer is coming. lol

Some skirts on men are OK. Kilts in Scotland for example. Or sarongs in Indonesia. Or dhotis in India. But none of the men who wear these skirts attempt to feminize themselves. Some years back the designer Marc Jacobs tried to make popular a line of man-skirts. It didn't take off but they weren't laughable because they and the shirts and accessories they were combined with were very masculine, like non-Scottish kilts. The male models who bared their legs showed off very hairy and muscular legs. So it's not the skirts that people don't respect, it's the attempt to feminize.

I think it is human nature to respect and admire strength. Not just physical strength but strength in any form, i.e. excelling in something or strength of character. Weakness in any form is not considered an asset, even among women. Strong women are not laughed at, they are admired ... as are strong men. Anyone who purposely tries to "weaken" themselves is not respected. And since men traditionally have been seen as stronger than women due their larger statures (when physical strength was important for our survival), any attempt to adopt a symbol of a "weaker" stature or nature is not admired.

Many members here think it is not fair for women to wear "male clothing" (i.e. garments other than dresses and skirts) but, apart from wearing pants for practical reasons and while not trying to look masculine, choosing to not wear a skirt removes a certain vulnerability that skirts hint at when women wear them. And so women are not laughed at when they wear pants. Because strength is admired.

I once asked my SO why men looked at me more when I wore a skirt, more so than looking at a man in a kilt. He said it was because of the "accessibility" factor, as in easier access to what men want. No barriers. (Men don't want what Scots have under their kilts.) This is all very nebulous and most of us don't really think of it when we see people in skirts, but it's there in the background. Women generally look more accessible, therefore more vulnerable, when they wear skirts. And any man who attempts to co-opt this look for himself (with the appropriate accessories like feminine tops, heels, makeup, hair styles, etc) will not be respected by many people and as you pointed out, the media.

That said, there has been a movement forward in our current times toward understanding that some people are transgender. And so some of the more enlightened people will see a man who presents as a woman as a transgender person rather than a kinky guy who enjoys being weak and so wants to feminize himself. Keeping in mind, that no one can tell a person's internal gender ID just by outward appearance, no matter how they present. But (and this is beside the point), just because a person is transgender doesn't mean that she needs to choose an outfit that makes her look vulnerable. Lots of feminine women wear pants. Still, I'm afraid that any attempt by a birth-male to feminize himself (even if he wears slacks and flat shoes or modest heels), will not be seen by many (or most?) people as the expression of transgender. It will be seen as an attempt at emasculation, and therefore will not be respected. Because people admire others who work on their strengths and don't try to be weaker.

[DianeT]

(Warning, cute moment near the end)

Sabine, interesting thread (I catched a glimpse of an answer by another GG after Reine's, but it vanished. If she's reading this, come back and join the party!).

My wife would probably agree with most of Reine's explanation, as she's been explaining it to me a few times (and in these forums once or twice I think). Taking the attributes of the dominant (males) is respected, taking the attributes of the dominated is embarrassing and laughable. I understand the rationale and since I didn't find a better explanation to the ridiculing of CDers (and I'm not immune to seeing that ridicule myself, on me or others when the attire isn't right...), I consider it a good explanation. That said, I can't say it rings a bell for me, because I don't think women are inferior beings, I simply never did as far as I can remember. And I'm not saying this to be cute; I really can't relate to it, dot. I can see cues of it everywhere in the masculine and feminine population, but to the best of my knowledge I did not interiorize it myself. When I was a child, I had a brother and two sisters, I had female friends and male friends, and to me both types had two arms two legs and similar concerns in life. Therefore I had to look for another reason for finding some transvestites ridicule (including me in some instances). I found two that resonate with me, for what they're worth: looking at a male with feminine attributes registers as "off" in my brain. The uneasiness that ensues can trigger embarrassment or laughing, depending on the context and mood. The reason I don't relate it to the "weak" theory is because I can experience the same feeling with a genetic woman with an over-the-top or badly executed makeup. But it unsettles me more if it's a man. So I had to explain that too. The one I came with is that being straight I am uneasy with blurring the lines between male and female. The female cues will call to my sexual brain but the male cues will fight this. The antagonism generates uneasiness and anxiety.

About dressing as a vulnerable woman: your mileage may vary. I agree with the possibility that it might be exciting, but again don't relate. I said a few times in these forums that my first female models as a child (apart from my mother obviously, who certainly wasn't a weak woman) were Marvel and DC comics superheroines. This leads to the interesting fact that I was both attracted to powerful women and tight outfits. When I grew up and saw older girls dressed in pantyhose and dresses of varying levels of tightness, they didn't look vulnerable to me. I just thought they looked fantastic, and the effect they had on me was not inducing predatory feelings, but rather admiration of the energy (including sexual, right) and power they radiated in my eyes.
When I present as a woman, I dress like these women. And when the attire and all the rest comes together fine (some endeavour really), looking at me in a mirror I simply feel fantastic and powerful. It is a feeling that is very hard to describe. I can just say that I take pictures, in the hope that one will stand out and convey these emotions. Looking at this picture, I am, like, "Wow. I can be like that." And "that" is not sexy, not vulnerable. On these pictures, I stand with a hand on my hip and look straight in the camera. And seeing myself like this gives me a genuine sensation of being both beautiful and powerful in one package.
In old adventure stories we could read that some tribes ate their ennemies' brains to acquire some of their powers. Well, I dress as a woman for the same reason. I want to have the illusion, even for an instant, that I can be as special as these women who made an impression on me. And to my wife reading these lines: yes you are one of them. (That's it, that was the cute moment, it's done now, you can relax. No more cute moment for a while. Promised.)

-- EDIT --
About the vulnerability topic: I don't go out. Mentioning this as my wife rightly remarked that it makes a big difference. If I did, I would dress differently. When I was a teenager I once dressed as a girl in tartan skirt and opaque pantyhose for Mardi Gras and went out like this. I didn't choose it (idea of my wife and a friend of hers) and didn't take it like a cross dressing session, I hesitated and simply did not say no. I felt vulnerable indeed in this attire (to some extent... I'm 6'4") and to the best of my recollection didn't like the feeling.

[mykell]

ok, drew carey show, his brother was a crossdresser. mimi was the comic relief.

golden girls, stan was a crossdresser, in drag at his funeral.

bones, had a episode with a crossdresser, done very tastefully.

star, had trans and nonbinary characters.

empire, gay, trans, nonbinary, dressers....well written show.

the golden girl show was in the nineties....so its getting done....even under the radar....we just remember the derogatory things more easily perhaps :strugglin



welcome to the forum sabine

[AngelaYVR]

To an extent, this is what a lot of us are saying about ourselves when we go out. We hope that we are putting a new face to the old ideas of what a crossdresser is (many of which are still true but they paint an incomplete picture).

There are far too few good depictions of us in the media so we are working with untilled soil here.

[docrobbysherry]

Wow Reine, u put a lot out there to think about!:eek:

I know how tricky my subconscious can be. So, I wonder if that is one reason I have no interest in dressing part way? That it demonstrates emasculation more than feminization?:straightface:

[SaraLin]

Just once I would like to see a male character in a TV show decide to wear a skirt and heels to the office with the same confidence and dignity as if they were in a drab suit and tie.


Well - It's not going to the office, and the show is a sitcom, but "the Conners" has a boy who dresses feminine, and for a while (if I remember correctly) was wearing skirts to school. I was impressed that they weren't using the kid's dressing as comic relief, but to address some social issues.

The show has backed way off on this, and he now only wears somewhat "girly-looking" outfits with pants/slacks. He's also a very minor character and gets little screen time and even fewer lines.

I'm not a big fan of the show, since they seem to focus too much on the "Sit" part and have forgotten the "com" part of Sitcom - or maybe I've lost my sense of humor.

[Teresa]

Reine,
As a GG do you feel more vulnerable or less strong when wearing a skirt ? I can only relate my expereinces to the last three years but I have to say now I'm totally use to my appearance on a daily basis I don't feel any more vulnerable or weaker . I chose to wear skirts and dresses because I find them more comfortable , I wear what I feel is appropriate ,any suggestion of weakness or vulnerablity is a problem for the viewer not me . I admit I do get more of that feeling when dressed to the nines , high heels and certain clothing items do make you more vulnerable , possibly in your SO's words easier prey for admirerers .

On the whole if you are a strong person you remain that strong person but lets not forget some people look to dressing for exposing a weaker more subservient side .