Does the missus seeing you en femme burn your man card?

[Sabine Janus]

Curious to know the before and after the spouse/SO knows about the crossdressing.

Are you viewed as less of a "Man" or more for that matter. How does it change the dynamic.

[Kris Burton]

For me, this is an interesting question. When I first came out ? and I was not caught, I outed myself ? there was a period when it was a bit tense. Over a few days though that diminished and now things seem back to regular, and perhaps even better. We talk about it openly, but it hardly dominates the conversation. She has given me unsolicited makeup tips, which I need. She gave me a dress she no longer wanted, that I LOVE! There is an occasional gentle joke, which I find fun.
Our arrangement is that all is OK as long as she never sees me enfemme. She says she would find it disturbing to see me as someone else other than the person she has known for so long?I accept this too. But does it have more to do with seeing me presenting as a woman and not a man? I don't know. We will see what develops over time. At present it looks like things are moving in the right direction, and full acceptance may be in the offing. I am not going to push this, give it time, but what we have works for us both.

[CharlotteCD]

My wife has never seen me dressed, but just knowing has made me less of a man to her.

[Sabine Janus]

My wife has never seen me dressed, but just knowing has made me less of a man to her.

in what way?

[Joanie CD]

I am one of the lucky ones. I came out to her two years ago after 39 years of marriage (she found a skirt I forgotten to pack when I went on a business trip), and she has been nothing but supportive. As far as I can tell, to her I'm the same guy she's always known, but now with more clothes. She critiques my outfits, she's bought me makeup, and she's bought me clothes. She's also passed on some purses she no longer wanted.

Even though in theory I could, I don't dress every day, when I do, she usually gives me a once over, and either says "cute!" or "not sure that top goes with that skirt". It's no big deal to her. We watch movies/TV together in the evening, and sometimes I'm dressed. I have girly pajamas I wear 2-3 nights a week on average. She's seen me in bra/panties/pantyhose, etc. No big deal for her. She only infrequently wears skirts or dresses, but she dresses femininely, with jewelry and light makeup most days.

[Natalie5004]

My story is the same as Kris Burton. The only difference is we cannot share clothes. I am a 14-16 size and my wife is a 6? But we do comment on clothes and I have shown her some of mine to get an opinion. She still has not seen me dressed. I am hoping for a birthday present we can sit down and have a great meal at home with wine and music.

Time will blend all issues away if you both want to. Have fun.

Natalie

[Krisi]

Not that I can tell. More than likely, old age has made me "less of a man".

[Stephanie47]

With my wife and I it is strictly a deep dive DADT so I have had no verbal communication on the cross dressing issue. It's her choice, not mine. I respect her choice. I have no idea what she thinks. For some time after "The Talk" she was icy when it came to bedroom activities. She told me not to buy her any lingerie because I probably bought lingerie with the thought of how I would look in it. That wasn't true. I have come to the conclusion most women do not have a clue about cross dressing and have no desire to get educated. Hence, they let their minds wander and wonder. I read in an article by a psychologist that most women harbor a mental image of what their husbands look like en femme even if they have never seen their husband en femme. We weathered the storm. I do not do anything in the area of body modification or intentionally remind her of my cross dressing; no nail polish on toes, etc. That old saying, "You reap what you sow" holds true, but, in the opposite way. If a woman rejects a significant part of her husband it may be that he loses some attraction for his wife. I can sit down a list all the accomplishments stacked up over my 70+ years on this earth, and 50 years as a husband, yet, find the cross dressing issue torpedoes it all. Not all guys are horny sex machines with a one track mind. If the marital train falls off the rails don't just blame the husband.

[Marissa Q]

Although I understand it, I find it disheartening that many women apply a sort of "strength ratio" in these situations. "Less of a man" is often internally read as "Weak as a woman". I think this comes from years of indoctrinated belief for many cis women that their gender is truly the "weaker" sex when, paradoxically, life as a woman requires so much more fortitude.

Conversely, "less of a man" can also be read as "less of MY man". Relationships in all their forms can be highly territorial and -- if that human territory alters too radically (and too quickly) -- forceful pushback occurs, often in the form of insults and a downgrading of status within that relationship. From the hundreds of posts regarding SO's and their highly varied levels of acceptance I've read here before joining the site, I've had to continually remind myself that a CD isn't asking their SO to change mere opinion, but is asking that they completely transform the most fundamental paradigm of what it means (to them) to be a defined, social/sexual animal. It's a hard sell at best, especially in light of the fact that so many of us have taken decades to internally alter that paradigm ourselves; we've all had problems accepting our own true selves, but we often want someone else to do it "faster" than we ever could.

That's why Natalie has it right on when she says that time will blend all issues away. I think this truism is known by most CDs, but 'how much time' is always the ancillary question.

That being said, I think that if it occurs, a good starting place for a retort to that accusation is that: "I'm not less of a man. I'm much more of a human being."

[sara66]

My wife does not want to see me dressed. She is afraid that she would perceive me as less of a man.
Sara

[OrdinaryAverageGuy]

My lovely wife sees me as the man I am, regardless of how I'm dressed. One evening I had to go out front and cut down some branches that the cars were hitting, halfway through the job she commented that she was surprised I was doing it in a skirt. I replied that it's camo skirt, therefore manly. She laughed.

[Pumped]

My wife probably felt that way at first, but over time she has come to realize I am the same guy she married years ago. I have always been sensitive and loving and she loves that.

On the other hand I do a lot of manly stuff. I love riding and working on motorcycles. I used to have a 1000CC sport bike and loved riding wheelies and abusing the speed limit.

I am in the final stages of a fairly major remodel of our home, doing it all by myself. I think if anything she finds it interesting that I can work during the day in a denim shirt and jeans with a tool belt and work gloves, climbing ladders, using power tools, wrestling construction lumber, doors and windows. Getting bumps and bruises, getting bloody, cussing and swearing. Then later in the day I take a shower, clean up and get the girl on, calm down, relax and unwind.

By her reactions I often think she loves me more than before she found out.

[Rachelakld]

My wife thinks we shouldn't make out when I'm wearing breast forms as she finds them uncomfortably firm (me too).

My wifes first husband was MANLY, she got fed up with his BS.
I might not be as manly as her first in some things.
I have a softer attitude, more respect for others, prettier dressing, gentler when looking after kids and grandkids PLUS she has total freedom about what she likes, what she buys, where she goes, who her friends are etc.

Thinking about manly and doing renovations, I do more manly renovations in a week, than her ex did in his lifetime (which was mostly playing computer games).
My kids and wife love how my 2 year old grandchild hangs around grand dad and helps him do "building stuff".

Manly can be caring, loving, nurturing, intune, present, yes?

[Gi Gondin]

I wonder if any of us has ever asked this question to our SOs, and what were the answers. I never had and will probably ask today.

And how the GGs in this forum perceive this question?

What does it mean less of a man?

My guess is that my girlfriend has two lovers/companions for the price of one! And frequently tells me that crossdressing is something that she wishes never leaves our relationship!

[SaraLin]

I guess that I've retained my "man" card.
Just last night, after doing some little thing for her, she turned to me and said "you're the best husband ever." Then she paused a second and added "even if you do wear dresses."

[HelpMe,Rhonda]

I've always wondered about wives who find out about their husbands and then insist the husbands just STOP! even if husband cd's privately. Do they think that the husband stopping will somehow mean they never will think of it again?

[Marissa Q]

Just last night, after doing some little thing for her, she turned to me and said "you're the best husband ever." Then she paused a second and added "even if you do wear dresses."
Just maybe you're the best husband ever because you wear dresses. :battingeyelashes:

[confused_cathreen]

I am a woman so don't know what this "man card" means. I never had membership to this club, it's probably something that men talk about amongst themselves? What it did, for me, is ruined my sexual attraction. That was the end result. I like fancying my partner and that was a big dealbreaker.

[Giselle(Oshawa)]

my wife has seen me as less of a man since the day i came out to her.
she has come to many support group events with me and is always happy
when i de-transistion , if i had come out to her earlier in our marriage
she would have filed for divorce

[Cheryl T]

If you mean that she sees me as less masculine and more feminine then I would say yes, but only while I am dressed.
Personally I hope that she does see me as feminine and not masculine. I don't dress to be a MIAD and I wish only to be viewed as a woman.
I suppose also I feel that I am TG rather than just CD and much of the time I would prefer to not revert to "male".

I dress nearly daily at this time, but due to certain things in our life I am unable to pursue this farther at this time.

[Stephanie47]

I guess you have to ask a woman what she expects in "her man." Did he deliver until "the reveal" and then it all went away? Why does one woman fully embrace all aspects of her husband while another quickly kicks the guy to the curb? Several years ago one of the GG's on this site in response to a comment said a "Woman did not have the opportunity to choose." It's a valid point. I know Cathreen is confused, but, so am I.

Several years ago I sent a condolence card to the widow of one of my cousins. She did not know me from a hole in the ground. I did go to their wedding decades ago, but, that was the totality of our family relationship. She asked another cousin, her brother-in-law, who is this guy? My older cousin read the letter. He told me where he lives in the south that sort of letter is consider to "be light." I got the sense that type of condolence was suppose to come from a female mind. I guess my "man deck" is missing a "man card or two." Is that the same as "not playing with a full deck?" My deck still has 52 cards but some are quite different than some other decks. Sometimes when the deck is shuffled you do not know what the next card is going to be. If you do not like the draw do you fold your hand and go home? Or, do you continue to play?

[Misty_cder]

This is a great question that made me ask my wife what is her view point. The first point she made is my dressing is my thing, it doesn't do anything for her. She is willing to help me with selecting and purchasing clothing and makeup. She understands dressing is something that I like to do. As I've mentioned before, she has some ground rules regarding my dressing (i.e.: not in front of the children or doing something that can ruin my professional reputation) which I'm more than happy to follow. As to the point of being less, or more, of a man, she doesn't see me any less of a man, I'm just her husband wearing women's clothing.

[Elizabeth G]

In one respect for me the answer is yes. Intimacy has stopped. In all other aspects our relationship is great. It wasn't due to her seeing me fully dressed but due to her knowledge of my crossdressing in general.

[XemmaX]

no not really but maybe i dont do it enough. but is being viewed as less of a 'man' always bad?

[Joyce Swindell]

Good thread
So I asked my wife: "Do you think of me as less of a man when I'm dressed as Joyce"?
She said: No

[Karren H]

Mine has never seen me dressed. And I would not want her to. Obviously she considers me a man. In her mind, all men lie and I lied so therefore I must be a man. Personally I think we all got out man cards under false pretenses. Like lying about your age to get in the military. Lol.

[JocelynJames]

I guess I don?t really know. We?re still intimate, I still do most of the typical male chores with a few not so typical mixed in. I underdress daily, dress when the mood strikes, refer to her as my wife , and most of the time she refers to me as her husband.

[Bianca Fay]

Although I am no longer married, I wanted to chime in on this topic as it relates to how my ex-wife viewed the subject...
My crossdressing consisted of nothing more than only wearing pantyhose. She caught me numerous times and absolutely hated the fact that I wanted to wear nylons. She would berate me and constantly bring it up during certain conversations or disagreements throughout our short marriage.
She would question my manliness and called me every name in the book. Even though my dressing desires were limited to wearing pantyhose, she would refer to me as a drag queen, a fairy, and many other unwarranted labels. She definitely felt that I was less than a man in her opinion.
We eventually divorced. Despite the fact that we had other issues (we married young and really weren't compatible), she specifically stated that the reason for wanting out of the marriage was due to my penchant for wearing pantyhose.

[ReineD]

Are you viewed as less of a "Man"

Not at all. I see the CDing as just one facet of my SO. It doesn't take away from everything else he is.

If you want to reduce it to concrete fundamentals, my SO has the anatomy of a man, he has a man's voice, and he is bigger than me. He also has the same personality and character traits that he has always had, along with the same thought processes about a multitude of things, and the same interests in a wide variety of things. The clothing he wears occasionally is only a small part of it.

I can't say for sure, but I suspect the members who believe their wives feel they are less of a man might be projecting their own thoughts onto their wives. A wife may generally dislike the idea of CDing (this is common) without thinking her husband is "less" a man - because men in general are not just one stable thing that they can be more or less than. Not every man is supposed to be a John Wayne (or whoever) type of macho - actually, very few men are - :) and not every woman goes for that anyway. There are many different types of women who are attracted to many different types of men.

[lovesnylons]

Not at all. In fact, after all these years of marriage (27), it has improved our sex life. At least once a week I get fully dressed and we enjoy each other the way a married man and woman do. Except we do it with the man completely dressed like a woman

[DianeT]

I don't think my wife sees me as "less of a man" since I came out to her, but she clearly (as in she simply tells me) experiences a disconnect between me as she knew it and this mysterious person disguising as a woman. She can't make it into the same person and for a few months after the reveal was often looking at me with a cryptic gaze which told a lot about her perplexity ("what is this stranger in my bed? It looks like my husband, walks like my husband, mansplains as my husband, but is it my husband?"). The reveal also damaged her libido, but from what I understood from our conversations the loss of trust is the major cause, not the vision of me in drag. Besides, she never saw it. But she can imagine it, so, it may also have a bearing. Complex stuff.

[DanielleDubois]

I haven’t lost my man card but several years ago my wife decided she was uncomfortable seeing Danielle in person or photos. She explained it was difficult and sometimes a little disturbing seeing her husband look and act so much different and that it was hard to put the Danielle image out of head when we were being intimate. I wish she felt differently but I can live with her decision and as a little positive I have considered her request to be a bit of a backhanded compliment about my Danielle transformation.

[Maria 60]

When I told her she wanted to see where it was going. She agreed to buy me some of my own things not to stretch hers and for some reason she wouldn't allow me to buy anything pink. This went on for years, she never treated me any different when dressed of not. I believe the pink was to femine for her to handle for some reason, a few years later I guess she seen the dressing wasn't that bad and she came home one day with a pink bra and panty set almost like an exceptness. She always seen me, not that there was a second person, she never even minded me dressed during sex, it was just remove the wig because the hair was in her face. She never treated me different

[sometimes_miss]

It did for me; while discussing it with our therapist, my wife admitted that she felt that 'I lost something', after discovering that I was a crossdresser. While initially she was trying to accept and deal with it, it turned out that subconscious attraction can be destroyed by knowing that there are significant things about a male that aren't very masculine. The subconscious attraction to our mates is based on an image we create about what we know of them; destroy or alter that image significantly, and the sexual attraction can easily be gone. Once the sexual desire is gone, so can the romantic love, and once that's gone, she will feel the need to find a new, sexually attractive partner, and it won't be us. Then the relationship can be all but over, passion wise, anyway. Oh, sure she may still care for your a great deal, the same way she cares about her siblings, uncles, parents, children. But the sexual desire can be gone. And once that's gone, there's usually no coming back from it.

[alwayshave]

I don't think my wife thinks I'm less manly. She still sees me do all the traditionally male things around the house and out with the boys. I'm certainly more manly than her ex-husband who didn't know which end of a hammer to use. The only thing my wife has stated she doesn't like about my crossdressing is the lack of chest hair.

[Stephanie47]

I totally agree with sometimes_miss. My wife and I went through a period of rough times after "The Talk." She went through all that "if I had know, I would have not married you," etc talk. Really hurtful stuff. "Tell me how you really feel" would be appropriate for the conversation. Unload on the guy. Not all men are "horny *******s" on the prowl looking for a sex object. Throw out too many hurtful words and you'll find in the end you really cannot walk them back. My wife tried to gloss it over by saying it essentially would have been two-faced to dump me when I accepted her before and after she revealed her secrets. She has more she has not revealed. You think those secrets have not affected her personality. What else is she not telling me? So I accepted her revealed flaws while dating, and, many more after the "I do's." I think a lot of guys would have told her if they had known, they would have not even considered tying the knot.

What you sow, you shall reap. A woman may show a lot of disdain for her husband to the extent the guy wonders "Is this the woman I married?" On this forum too many times I read stories akin to Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. How many times will a husband tolerate having his nose rubbed in it before he loses the passion for his wife? It works both ways.

[Emma Leigh]

Mine found out by accident ie she caught me and at first she was supportive even buying me stuff but she certainly did not treat me the same as she had before and eventually I think it got to her and she asked me to move out ..so to answer your question Yes seeing me en femme did burn the man card in my case

[mbmeen12]

I know for sure my girlfriend does not see me as "less of a man" since I came out to her. Which was a phone conversation after the second date. Basically I said "before we go any further I want to tell you something".....

[Lunamoon]

My wife has never seen me dressed, but just knowing has made me less of a man to her.
That is so sad.
I put this question to my wife, she said she fell in love with me because I was different from other men. She likes the fact that I am more feminine.

[Larissa Cassandra]

Wow, Luna, that's very cool! I've had a similar situation with my wife. We've known from the beginning (22 years) that I have lots of feminine traits and she has many masculine traits, so that's probably why she's been so accepting and supportive of my dressing. But she's never come right out and said specifically that she likes that I'm more feminine. So you're luckier than I am!

[Leslie Mary S]

No misses since 2004 and no SO since 2008. No your "man Card" stay with you even if you have operations, just the strength, and wear and tear, on the "man card" is reduced. Some think they can lock it away just like they did before they did with their "fem Card" till they switched. I kept my "fem Card well locked u for about 50 years.
The reason for this is that you still have the memories.

[LauraBird]

Well... I guess, one interesting way to play it:

If you wife decided SHE wanted to cross dress in the same way some do here? Wore a binder, packed a sock down in her pants, put on fake facial hair, plaid shirt, men's jeans, workboots, tried talking and acting more like a stereotypical man.... would you see her as less of a woman?

I don't think mine ever saw me as less of a man. But then I'm also not too sure WHAT she ACTUALLY thought because she was so hot and cold over it.

[Alexis00]

For my ex-wife, very definitely. She knew I cross dressed before marriage so that wasn’t the issue.

She learned she was not physically able to have children, and that was devastating to her (and us). Even though my swimmers were not the problem, as the relationship collapsed she became very mean about my dressing.

Didn’t help matters by taking some provocative lingerie pictures she found (“Who are these for - your boyfriend?”), and going out to clubs a few times while she was away.

She said many really mean things (which hurt me) but in fairness she was dealing with that devastating news. She quit her job and moved away and the divorce was part of a new start to life. She is doing much better now.

[Vickie_CDTV]

You don't have to even be married. If you are single and tell a woman you are a crossdresser, to her your "man card" goes up in flames, and you are "friend zoned" forever.

[Janine cd]

My wife never questioned my masculinity, but as years went on, our intimate relations declined. I ascribe it to my growing interest to fulfilling my desires to dress and be a woman.

[Vale]

In my experience degrading the man card, while not inevitable, happens often. I have lived a scenario similar to that described by SometimesMiss with my first wife. There can also be a parallel degradation to your spouse?s internal wife card. For example during marriage counseling prior to the divorce, my ex said ,? He doesn?t need a better half, he already has one inside.? We obviously did not manage these complex psychological issues very well. I am trying to do better now.
Cheers,
Vale

[Jade P]

My wife thinks I have burned my man card. I am married and my crossdressing has friend zoned me forever!! I think my man card has changed color from blue to a purple or pink color.

[kimdl93]

Without any doubt. She said she could never unsee what she saw, never get the image out of her mind and never see me the same way again.

[NancySue]

I told my wife before we wed and she said, ?big deal?. To her, I?m her husband who happens to enjoy the comfort of wearing women?s clothes. She doesn?t understand how I find underwires and hose comfortable, but I do. She?s been a great help in my progress. I always follow her recommendations.

[franlee]

NO! It's just that simple if you are a man to begin with. A man in a dress is far better than a sorry excuse for a husband that is so disconnected that he is a adulterer, drunk, burden, and maybe just a meal-card.

[Sallee]

My wife has known about my dressing before marriage. We went out together often to support group meeting and other social functions. As are marriage progressed, kids, etc The novelty wore off for her. Support groups were boring social functions were same old same old. So I slide further into the closet. I knew she didn't like it but didn't mind me going out and indulging. This grew into a guilt trip for me,knowing she didn't like it and was concerned that neighbors would find out. I think they did but nothing was said to her.
And thats how it goes to this day been together 44 yrs or so married 39. So I am a bit in the closet although I do get out support groups and other functions, mall crawls,etc. but dress on the sly.I am sure if I said straight out I am goin out to cross dress tonight she would have problem but not marriage ending. So I'll blame my guilt on me and not wanting to rock the boat