Yes, and ...

[GaleWarning]

Almost all of us here on crossdressers.com are in some form of relationship or another with a significant other (SO). Almost without exception, we will at some time or another need to have a discussion about the role and function of our crossdressing in our relationship.

It seems to me that there are four possible outcomes:

1. No, and ... which is where your significant other will not countenance any level of crossdressing in your relationship and expresses this in no uncertain terms. This tends to end in the break-up of a relationship.
2. No, but ... which is your typical DADT relationship, where the SO knows you dress in secret, but refuses to acknowledge it or have any part of it. Such relationships can, and do, survive.
3. Yes, but ... which is where discussion leads to the laying down of mutually agreed boundaries, usually involving crossdressing only at home, or away from home, on one?s own. One?s SO says, yes, but only under certain circumstances. There is a level of participation involved. Such members on the forum are usually envied for having accepting partners.
4. Yes, and ... which is where one?s SO is fully accepting of one?s crossdressing and is prepared to fully embrace it. This may include going out together, or even eventually agreeing to a full transition, without separating. There are many instances of this on the forum, and I hold such couples in high esteem!

My failed marriage fell into the first category; my present relationship probably falls into category 3.

Where does your relationship fit? Why? For what reason? How did it come about?

[NancyJ]

Gale, I have some disagreement with the categories, especially your definition of DADT. My relationship is actually a blend of number 2 and 3. She knows. We have boundaries. I wear panties openly with her and she knows that I dress, just doesn?t want to be around me when I fully dress, or discuss it. I think there is a wide variety of relationships, more of a continuum from fully open and supportive to fully closed and rejecting. I would hesitate to oversimplify by breaking it down into only four categories. Nancy

[GaleWarning]

So yours is a mixture of 2 and 3, Nancy, and you have explained the reasons for this. I'm happy with that.
This is not a market research survey, so I am not going to press you to choose either 2 or 3!
:love:
How did it come about?

[Kris Burton]

My wife and I are a strong Yes,but...My CDing is fully accepted by my wife. She does participate with me up to a point,helping and teaching me the dark art of makeup, helping me select wardrobe, offering assistance with my overall presentation, both in photos and in person, and perhaps best of all discussing all matters CD with me without hesitation or a sense of discomfort. There is but one condition on all this, and that is that I do not crossdress publicly. I consider this a more than equitable trade considering all I get in return, and I'm hoping one day she will warm to this is as well, and then we will be yes,and... It could happen, especially since I am not interested in transition.

[kimdl93]

Ok.twice failed, so I do not know if I should even play?but let me apply the 4 categories to two marriages that encompassed 40 years of relationships (god, that sounds like a long time). I would probably give both marriages a 2 out of 4, but mostly because I did not express myself ?hell did not even understand myself?sufficiently to ask for their support. My first wife?I honestly think would be a 4, as long as she felt included. Second wife, I?m not quite so sure?she wanted to be a 3 or 4, but well, again, I was not very good at communicating?and maybe not so good at understanding myself.

[Kitty Sue]

Former relationship was definitely a solid 4.
Current marriage is probably somewhere between 3 and 4. In saying that I am not overly wanting to dress as we children in the house and I am not ready to explain this part of my life to them. As I don't have any of my own clothes around sometimes I will slip on my wife's instead.

[Gillian Gigs]

I'm totally in the Yes, but column. Having said that, it has been over 25 years of the wife knowing about my dressing habits. Through this period of time the limitations have gotten lesser and lesser. I'm now probably the one know places any limitations on myself now. I would never go out dressed to the nines, I would never pass for anything other than an old guy in a dress. I do underdress all of the time, sometimes she tells me that I have lace showing, and that I need to button up one more button when we are out.

[Julia B]

Toyally a YES AND relationship. Why? Because I told my partner 3 weeks into the relationship. It makes no sense it this day and age that someone starts a relationship without this being totally in the open.
She totally loves and supports me just as I love and support her.

[Pumped]

We are at #4, but have been at all the other steps getting there.

[bridget thronton]

Between 3 and 4 (married 47 years)

[TheHiddenMe]

You have left out the outcome where the spouse doesn't know, and having met two CDs in real life for which that is the case, and having been on this board for regularly for over five years, a fairly significant portion of this forum (probably greater than 10%) have never disclosed to their spouse/significant other.

And the question of the survival of the marriage is likely in many cases unrelated to the items you list, as 45% of marriages end in divorce. There are a ton of reasons why people divorce, and multiple categories of how crossdressers and spouses interrelate. They just don't fit neatly into small different boxes.

[GaleWarning]

Would that scenario not fall into the DADT category 2, Hidden? The person concerned has not asked, and will not tell. The SO cannot ask, cos they haven'y been told.

[Angela Marie]

I would say almost a 4. I told my wife on our second date. She accepts my crossdressing and a number of years ago actually went to a few parties with me. She has since decided that is not her thing. She has no issue with me being dressed and going out. She just asks that I be careful and not do anything foolish. Not a bad situation.

[Debbie Denier]

I have been at 1 but since slipped into 2.

[DianeT]

Gale, my wife and I are in the third category. She is accepting and boundaries have been set. While the dressing is a total turn off for her and she doesn't want to see me (which suits me fine), she is supportive, since she bought me some makeup, gave me clothes, let me borrow a necklace. The very late coming out causes a lot of damage, trust was broken and needs mending. She doesn't always know if I'm telling the truth and not keeping information from her. However she is not overly suspicious, it's just that she can't believe me a 100% anymore. She's a loving wife, who does her best given the circumstances and what I did to her.

[sara66]

We are a 3. Her major rule is not to see me dressed. Other than that, she is pretty much ok with my dressing.
Sara

[Natalie5004]

I am a Yes but. She has spent a few evenings with me dressed. I am no longer asked if I am gay. I am asked not to leave the house. ( I still go out shopping). I am lousy at taking directions.

[GretchenM]

Prior to 10 years ago, my wife, by her own admission, never knew a thing about that side of me. Not unusual. SO's (either way) often only see what fits their image of how their partner is without any recognition of other aspects. When I came out 10 years ago my wife was shocked and very hurt, as expected. It was rough for awhile but after 43 years of marriage (at that point - now 53) we have always worked things out by compromise and agreements and a good deal of empathy and compassion on both sides. So we would fit into your category 3. I do wear a lot of feminine colored shirts, a pair of flats around the house, and sometimes panties. So that fits as well.

I really think you need to modify your category 2 to allow for those situations where the SO does not know OR create a new category where that is the case and it is all a secret. Secret keeping is very common in most relationships, but most of the time it involves minor things. When it involves major things like crossdressing, having affairs, being dishonest about your sexual orientation and a pile of other things the relationship is at serious risk of failing if the secret is found out.

Admitting to a secret, if done correctly (not being bull headed and demanding or dictatorial) can often end well. I have seen here people whose marriage have ended badly and they are perplexed as to why the SO reacted to so badly. Crossdressing is often an expression of female-like emotions and behaviors that make the person who engages in the activity comfortable, but when forced on another that is a characteristic of traditional and stereotypical male-like behavior and thinking which is a total contradiction to the gender expression. That is not likely to end well at all. But full dressing is rare and that is OK because we operate on the basis of compromise agreements which respect the more esoteric existence of a loving relationship between two people that are not identical.

[SaraLin]

#3 for me.

Nighties and panties are ok. In recent years, I've been able to add to the "nightwear" category in the form of a bathrobe and slippers.

Nothing else is OK. Even though she knows I have more stuff hanging in the closet. She doesn't want to see me in any of it.

[Paulie Birmingham]

low to mid 3's. no plan on ever transitioning so no 4. no way in hell i could be passable and i don't want to be a miad in public. most of my dressing is under and inside though i venture outside with some feminine clothes and lipstick

[Mary Loo]

I would say we are somewhere between 2 & 3. It sort of depends on her mood.

She is certainly aware and not a NO and also certainly not a YES or participatory. She has established that she doesn’t want to see me because she says she will never be able to unsee me that way and is afraid it will therefore alter our relationship. After 30+ years together, neither of us want to jeopardize that. She has been helpful at times and on occasion is willing to talk about it, but despite knowing very early on in our relationship, she has never been forced to come to terms with it until recently because I really was only on the fringe of actions until recently. In other words I kept it completely closeted and it was reasonably rare, plus no real enhancements.

[Sometimes Steffi]

I would say number 2, "No but ..."

To me, number 2 equates to "Tolerate" but not accept. I call it, "Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil."

We do have boundaries that allow me to go out occasionally, but she will not participate in any form. As someone said above, she doesn't want to see me, even in pictures, because then she'll never be able to un-see me.

My equivalent categories are:
1. Hates
2. Tolerates
3. Accepts
4. Participates

[Jenn A116]

I'd say Yes, but...

My wife of 25 years has know about Jennifer since before we got married. I felt she needed to know about that part of me. She often attributes some of my kinder traits to the Jenn side.

So, why the but? Because even with her acceptance the days that Jenn appears are a bit uncomfortable. When Jenn is not around, we regularly touch, hug and kiss through out the day. Very frequently. Its just the way we are. But when Jenn is around there is none of that. We still carry on normal conversations but the dynamic is different.

Oh, and Jenn only appears in the house. She doesn't got out.

[Stephanie47]

I have to go with two.

Why? Because my wife refuses to have any conversation concerning my cross dressing...since the mid 1980's. I call it "The Ostrich" effect; stick head in ground.

For What Reason? "If I wanted to be married to a woman, I would have married a woman," she declared. When my wife first meet me, we were in the army. I had just gotten discharged from a military hospital from being wounded in Nam. I was a my military height (6'2") and weight (175) with a full head of blond hair. She was attracted to me as a physical specimen and my personality. Nothing, other than straight sex, came into play until we had been married for a while. Years before I had dabbled in my mother's lingerie draw. When I outgrew my mother's clothes my youthful interests ebbed. After we were married I had bought her a white peignoir set. One night my love of nylon was rekindled and I tried it on. She discovered me wearing it in the kitchen while I was getting a drink of water. A conversation ensued. I told her I like the feel of the nylon material. We ended up incorporated some (two) nightgowns into the bedroom scene as a little "kink," for a lack of a better word. She bought me several pairs of stockings and a garter belt. Fast forward a decade and my interests expanded. One day our three year old daughter pulled a red Vanity Fair bra from my little collection in a box in the bottom draw of my armoire. "The Talk" ensued, and, that was it, "If I wanted to be married to a woman, I would have married a woman!"

Where are we now? It's that deep "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." On occasion she has found an article of clothing I failed to secure; bra or panty. All she did was fold them and place them out of sight and told me. No screaming or yelling. She found I failed to close the screen on this sight once. She told me to be more careful in case a visitor were to see it. No screaming or yelling. Several years ago, when she was clearing out all the lovely nightgowns from the back of her side of the walk-in closet, she had them all piled on the bed. She told me to take anything I wanted. That made my jaw drop. I did secure that original purchase; white peignoir set. Not knowing how to gauge women's sizes when I had purchased it, the nightgown swam on her. It was a medium. As we sleep apart for medical reason, I sleep in a nightgown and panty, and, I frequently wear it. It complements the pink peignoir we had bought together for me before "It" blew up.

How did it come out? Since my wife does not want to engage in any form of discussion I have amassed way to much feminine garments. I think the proper term would be "retail therapy." I have nobody to share my inner feelings. I have nobody to rein in my excessive buying; 162+ dresses, hundred of slip and panties, etc. With both of us now fully retired my only outlet with Covid is sleeping in a nightgown. Because she is a late riser I get to wear my night time attire under a floor length fluffy bathrobe.

That's life in a nutshell.

[Elizabeth G]

I am solidly in the third category but it has taken some time to get there.

I didn't tell my wife up front (a huge regret) and she found out in a difficult way. At first i thought this might put us on the divorce path but between therapy and a lot of talking over time we have moved quite far along.

My wife would rather not see me dressed (though she has) and we are still negotiating some things but I have quite a bit of latitude in general. For instance, we mostly work from home and she knows that if I'm in my office I am likely dressed, my wardrobe is not hidden at all, I underdress daily and I go out in public dressed (a somewhat recent development).

There have even been hints of category four so who knows where it will end up.

Yes, I am one of the lucky ones (in my opinion).

[Just Dana]

We're an almost four. My wife asked me not to transition, but that's the only restriction. She has been out with me once, but I've hardly been out myself. I don't know if she'd be okay if I was more open with our friends. Probably, but that's been too much for me, so I've never asked.

Dana

[beccadeath]

I was secretly hoping this was some sort of improv thread...

...anyway, I'm finding my relationship to be somewhere in the 3-4 range. Wife is fully accepting, but neither of us have any plans for going out in public and there is also not really a desire from either party to fully transition. She has told me she's not attracted to women, but she still tells me she's attracted to me when I'm dressed so...idk. If she weren't around would I consider it? Not sure...but she's the most important person in my life and I'm not really pressed to leave the closet in such a way. Times are a-changing, though, and younger generations (which, we're in our late 30s, early 40s respectively, but trend younger idealistically) are more accepting of gender fluidity and whatnot I've found. For the time being I am perfectly happy with the arrangement we have and as far as I can tell so is she.

[docrobbysherry]

No, because------Assuming we r "mostly with partners" is very presumptive of u, Gale!:straightface:

[GaleWarning]

I do realise that you and several others are on your own, doc. Seems a shame, somehow, but then again, freedom to choose one's own thing is a blessing in itself. Thanks for your comment.
I wonder how many members envy those who don't have to answer, or explain anything to a significant other?:daydreaming:

[Claire M]

Definitey a 2 here. We dont discuss this topic. When we have in the past it usually ended with her just shutting down and staring at me. I wish it were better and have considered making another run at the topic lately.

[alwayshave]

OK, I'll play. My wife is accepting and will go out with me. However, when I have been local, near to our neighborhood in DC, she does not go as she realizes if someone sees her with me the will realize that is me CDing and she doesn't want that. So solidly a 3.

[Heather76]

My wife and I have been married over 38 years. I started cross dressing 2 years ago this month. It took me 5 months to tell her. We were in category 2 for about 15 months. We are now in category 3 and will likely remain there. My wife does not participate. Aside from "not embarrassing my wife" the only boundary currently is she does not want to see me with makeup applied. I am hopeful that boundary will be removed. I don't see her ever helping Heather or going out with her. But, that's fine with me. I am also hopeful that should I ever go out dressed, it will be where there is zero chance of meeting anyone that knows me and she won't have an issue with that.

[Cheryl T]

I hate categories and labels.
Everything is a gradient and different for everyone.
My gradient is full acceptance and understanding and it's made our love grow every day.

[Abbyru1]

Most certainly number 2 for me. She knows but that's it. No bending the rules and more than likely, there will never be.

[Bobbi46]

Number 4 hits me big time, I have had a GF for about5 years, 3yrs ago , and pre Covid i told here i dressed and all was well we went out shopping and restaurents then slowly things change, "your boobs are too big, your pants are too short,(over here the fashion is for ankle length pants) visiting one day with an bove the knee black leather skirt to be met with "what have you got that on I hate leather skirts " I could go on but it would take a long time to explain it all but suffice to say this last week has been the straw that broke the camels back and next week i will be telling her "that's it i have had enough"
Not exactly a bed of roses and not what i envisaged would turn out to be like it has, many aspects of dressing she previously seemed to accept are now not acceptable and seeing as we are not married we are free to go our ways which is what i will be doing.

[Tbrooks]

I guess it would be #4, but it's more. My best friend in school was the one that opened my eyes. She not only supported it but she encouraged it. We've been married for 30 years now. Have a daughter. Served 20 years in the military. I own nothing but women's clothes. And have since we've been married. A side from my dress uniforms when I served. Everyone knows. And no I don't live in some forward think big city. I live in the country in the middle of the bible belt. And we even go to church ourselves. If someone says something my wife and/or daughter will say something quicker than I do. I was lucky. I feel bad for people who have no support. Don't let it discourage you. You are not doing anything wrong. Everyone has the right to to be who they want to be. And wear what they want to wear. There will always be people who think you should dress and act the way they want you to. And those people will never accept you for you.

[NatalieR]

My partner of four years and I are a 4. We initially met online and I told her about my dressing and "gender stuff" before we met in person. We've gone out together on several occasions, although not much since COVID. She is very supportive and we have people in our lives who know and are fine with it, but we are discreet since not EVERYONE knows. It has been working very well for us!!

[Gi Gondin]

First you of all I am impressed by the average score of this answers! Very encouraging.
My relationship is a 4+. Telling her at the very beginning was fundamental to this outcome.
Other than making sure that she would stick with me even if I transitioned, she is the one giving me heels and scheduling makeovers? a dream come through as I frequently tell her.

[JennyMay]

Not quite 4 but nearly. Fully accepting but keep it at home.

[Teresa.Smith.VA]

My relationship is also a 4+ because I revealed my interest in CDing shortly after we met. My wife is totally accepting of Teresa. No restrictions.

We enjoy our time together as "girl friends" with frequent outings to dine, grocery shopping, movies, even vacations frequently.

I am surely one of the luckiest strait cross dressers on the planet.

[suchacutie]

We are sitting side by side drinking our morning coffee just after I transformed to Tina. We were just talking about the differences of morning vs. Daytime clothes/makeup. Our connection has aspects of 3 and 4. Tina is fully supported. Anything can and is ducussed! The 'but' is that everyone has perspectives, but the limitations on Tina are tiny.

[GaleWarning]

I think that the fact there are so many people in relationships which are either a 3 or a 4 is a great testimony to the success of this forum in enabling so many of us to understand our situations and grow! This makes me happy. :)

[Teresa.Smith.VA]

As I was driving home from work I called my wife, which I tend to do daily. I told her about the post I had made above that rated our relationship a 4+, which is the highest rating. She told me that describing our marriage so positively and so kindly was a wonderful compliment to her. We chatted about it for a few minutes. Just as we were ready to end the call she said, "Hurry home. I have a surprise for you."

Once home she greeted me with a quick peck on the cheek and a hug. Of course, I asked her about her surprise. She took my hand and led the way to our bedroom. As we entered the room, I could see that she had selected a pair of white summer capris pants, sandals, a cute cotton top, along with my panties, bra, forms, etc. all laid out neatly on our bed.

I put my arms around her as she announced that she wants me to enjoy being Teresa full time for the next three days. I asked her what she had in mind. She replied, "Let’s just enjoy being girls. We will do what we always do on three-day weekends, but we will just do it as girls. OK?"

Now, I would like to make a small change to my original comment and rating above. I would like to add that my wife's acceptance of my need to be Teresa is clearly a "Yes", 4+++++++.

It just doesn’t get any better than that!

[Debs]

Definite 3, I can dress all the time around the house and at the holiday home, but I must not go out dressed local or seen dressed by neighbours. I can go out on my own overnight about 40 miles away to my seaside LGBT community , I go shopping dressed during the day, then clubs and pubs at night, and if Im going there I can leave the house dressed in the car straight out of the garage with no wig on and a top coat covering my clothes and big sunglasses on to cover my eye makeup, once down the road 4 or 5 miles I can stop and put my wig on etc. reverse coming home the next day straight into the garage. and those are the rules I stick by.

[JulieC]

This is a bit weird for me. So, I told my wife after we'd been dating for a few months. I had a pretty good idea I wanted to marry her, but I wasn't going to do so if she wasn't accepting. At the time, I really just wore pantyhose. That was my thing. She accepted it, even embraced it. A couple of days later, she bought me pantyhose as a surprise! Fast forward; we'd been married ~5 years, and I decide I want some heels. I end up getting two pairs, get some skirts, and a blouse. I was in heaven! I then decide I want to go to a CD support group. In the week leading up to the meeting, I was dressing every night after the (very little) kids had gone to bed. A week after this, my wife gives me a letter. It wasn't an ultimatum, and divorce was never mentioned. But, she made it clear in the letter that she was overwhelmed, and couldn't handle it anymore. She expressed that what started out as pantyhose only (which she could accept) had dramatically morphed. Her point was absolutely valid. Yet, I felt badly betrayed. I went into a defensive DADT arrangement of my own doing. I didn't want to confront her, I didn't want to cause an argument, I figured I'd stumbled into a bad situation that I wasn't going to undo. I'd tried to avoid this, being upfront, but hadn't avoided it because I went too far. Things stayed this way four a couple of years. I dressed on the rare occasion when I was alone for a bit. It sometimes felt like it was barely enough. The ice on this situation began to thaw, and eventually we worked through it and got out of the DADT situation. I was very thankful, and also a lot more wary of overwhelming my wife. I remain so to this day, always worried I'm going to go too far, or dress too often.

Now, ~15 years on, we're in a sort of inverse situation. My wife would be ok with me being out to the kids (I'm not), and would be ok with me being in public (I'm trying to get there, bit by bit). I do go out for walks at night around the neighborhood in shorts and pantyhose, with her along. My wife has a more cavalier approach to it now, and doesn't even hint at being overwhelmed. This week our kids have been away, and I've taken full advantage of it, crossdressing every evening, sleeping in my new nightgown (see thread in the Clothing... forum that I started about nightgown help if you're curious), and not wearing any male underwear at all this week. I'm in heels, skirt, pantyhose, and top as I type. My wife gave me a wonderful, loving kiss a while back as she went by. I've occasionally queried her this week if it is all too much, and she keeps assuring me all is fine and if it is too much she'll let me know. She knows I want to be out in public to get out of the cage I'm almost always in at home due to the kids, and encourages me doing so. Hasn't fully happened yet. I have more trepidations than she does.

So, we're clearly a 3...but really because of rules that I place on myself. I think my wife is more in 4 territory, though she doesn't overtly encourage me to crossdress. I'm envious of those of us who have wives that set out clothes for them, take them for mani/pedis, do makeovers, etc. But, that envy doesn't mean I'm anything other than 100% appreciative of my wife (and she knows it!). She has on occasion bought things for me (skirts, heels, pantyhose) without prompting from me, would be ok with the kids knowing, and would be perfectly fine being in public with me crossdressed. For my part, I don't want the kids to know (age old military 'need to know', and no benefit to them knowing, at least for now), and I don't want to be seen in public by anyone I know, most especially anyone from my office.

I have no interest in transitioning. I like being a guy, and don't want to drop that. I can imagine being crossdressed for days on end without feeling a need to present as a guy. But, I've never done that. Even if I did stay 100% en femme for a month, I still wouldn't want to transition. That's not in me.


Not exactly a bed of roses and not what i envisaged would turn out to be like it has, many aspects of dressing she previously seemed to accept are now not acceptable and seeing as we are not married we are free to go our ways which is what i will be doing.

I agree with you Bobbi. Life is too short to have an unaccepting partner. I feel for those in the forum who are married and in unaccepting situations. There's obvious matters of priority in such situations. But, if someone is in a situation as yours (not married) I'd say be done with it and move on if the lady in question is not willing to come around to it. This is where I was before I married my wife. I'd been in a long term relationship with a woman who was clearly unaccepting, and I'd had it dealing with that. We broke up for a variety of reasons, none of which had to do with CDing. But, I'm glad we did because I was sick of having an unaccepting partner. Ok it might mean you're alone, and that stinks, but I'd rather be alone than have someone who hated me for crossdressing.


I think that the fact there are so many people in relationships which are either a 3 or a 4 is a great testimony to the success of this forum in enabling so many of us to understand our situations and grow! This makes me happy. :)

There's likely some selection bias, but I agree it is very heartening to see how many people are in 3/4 situations. I think as time goes on society becomes more accepting, and women in relationships become more accepting. If this were 100 years ago, it'd probably be 80% 1, 15% 2, and maybe 5% 3, with barely any at a 4. Times change.

[Blonde617]

While I was married, 3. Any costume party or Halloween time was fine, dressing at other times was unpopular and several times she threw away lingerie I had.

[Jessica Secret]

I have a boyfriend and it's been #4 for us since the beginning of our wonderful relationship. He couldn't be more accepting, supportive and encouraging of my dressing although I'm still closeted at this point given that my entire wardrobe is lingerie (aside from 2 dresses) and I don't really have a specific desire to be dressed in public. We're very much in love and my boyfriend has always said it's unconditional and thus there have never been any restrictions on my dressing, excluding of course my own personal restrictions in deciding to stay closeted. He wants me to do whatever makes me happy. During the day I'm in male mode, at bedtime I'm either in satin pjs or romantic lingerie and I'm very much in the girlfriend role.

[AmyJordan]

I think there should be a 5 where your partner almost insists on you being dressed as in my case.

[GaleWarning]

Done.
#5. Yes, yes, yes! for those whose SOs insist that they (almost) always be attired in female clothing.