Too much yang - quote from Carl Jung

[Cathy Anderson]

I found this passage in Carl Jung's commentary on the Secret of the Golden Flower. The idea is that if male (yang) energy is too much emphasized consciously, the female (yin) energy will compensate unconsciously.

It seems to have obvious potential relevance to CDing—especially given anecdotal reports that CDing is disproportionately present in such very "male-oriented" professions as engineering, law enforcement, etc.


The Chinese would say in the words of the I Ching: When yang has reached its greatest strength, the dark power of yin is born within its depths, for night begins at midday when yang breaks up and begins to change to yin.

A physician ... sees, for instance, a successful businessman attaining all his desires heedless of his peril, and then, having withdrawn from activity at the height of his success, falling in a short time into a neurosis, which changes him into a querulous old woman, fastens him to his bed, and thus finally destroys him. The picture is complete even to the change from a masculine to a womanish attitude ... Similar cases of one-sided exaggeration in the conscious standpoint, and of the corresponding yin reaction of the unconscious, form no small part of the practice of psychiatrists in our time, which so overvalues the conscious will.
Cathy

[Ms. Donna]

An interesting application of eastern philosophy.

I'll make the assumption that this works both ways and offer the following:


Could too much 'Yin' drives one to persue more 'masculine' occupations as a form of overcompensation.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Cathy Anderson]

Could too much 'Yin' drives one to pursue more 'masculine' occupations as a form of overcompensation.
Yeah, I think that's almost certainly true in some cases. And then there can be a rebound.

Cathy

[Tina T]

I'll make the assumption that this works both ways and offer the following:


Could too much 'Yin' drives one to persue more 'masculine' occupations as a form of overcompensation.


I would most definitely agree in my case; rugby playing at school, and then serving in the army for 12+ years together with the stereo typical tattoos and moustache.

[Teresa Amina]

An interesting idea. Could also explain what seems to be the "timing" involved with those of us who, in our youth and young adulthood, suppress our feminine Other only to have Her become insuppressable in our 40s or 50s. I've noticed quite a few also do seem to come from an exageratedly Male subculture such as Bikers, Athletes, muscle car afficionados, etc.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Could too much 'Yin' drives one to persue more 'masculine' occupations as a form of overcompensation.

Certainly there's plenty of accounts from TSs who butched up to convince others -- but often mostly themselves -- that they were "manly." I've heard the same thing from CDs as well.

For what it's worth Cathy, I've also noticed that there's a disportionate number of engineers, programmers, etc. (at least here in the Bay Area) involved in other "alternative lifestyles" (for lack of a better word) -- not just the obvious ones, like the Trekkies, but also the Rennaissance Faire, Burning Man, the BDSM community, Wiccans, anime fanatics and cosplayers, etc.

My take on it is these are folks who typically are hyper-rational in their "ordinary" life and work. (In part it's probably covering (http://www.villagevoice.com/books/0603,ito,71780,10.html) because they feel that's what "expected.")

So these pursuits seem to be a way for their "irrational," emotional aspects to come out and play. And you see it even in more "normal" nerdy after-hours activities. For example, if you press the space nuts why we should go to Mars, the responses invariably seem to end up being soppy romantic ones.

[Julie Avery]

It is indeed an interesting idea. MarlaS recently posted a link to some serious, quantitative research about relative length of 2'nd and 4'th fingers being indicative of how much testosterone a person was exposed to prenatally. I come out "exposed to bunches" on their scale.

Not to make light of a serious post, but (I can't resist!) "Yang and Jung"? :cheeky:

[Ms. Donna]

Yeah, I think that's almost certainly true in some cases. And then there can be a rebound.

We seem to do a lot of 'rebounding' - vacillating from one extreme to another.


An interesting idea. Could also explain what seems to be the "timing" involved with those of us who, in our youth and young adulthood, suppress our feminine Other only to have Her become insuppressable in our 40s or 50s. I've noticed quite a few also do seem to come from an exageratedly Male subculture such as Bikers, Athletes, muscle car afficionados, etc.

It makes a lot of sense. Within the construct of gender as a binary system, it's only reasonable that this ignored, repressed feminine 'self' would fight it's way to the surface.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Marla S]

The idea is attractive, but I'd see the compensation in the way Donna pointed out.
For me it is hard to imagine that one becomes a CD because of the job instead of choosing a job because there are CDing tendencies.
On the other side a very rational, hard (masculine) job might more easy cause a CDing "rush" instead of a more (I'm running out of words here) "controlled" view.
On the third side there is something odd with the term "male-oriented professions". What do these jobs have in common ?

One thing comes to mind writing this.
Quite a few professions that involve creativity and feelings are dominated by men: Artists, musicians, designers (female clothes !), actors, poets etc.
There seems to be a remarkable exception, if I have the right overview, murder mysterie novelists. Women seem to dominate this market in writing and reading (not sure, though).

[Julie Avery]

Marla, I think you're right on the murder mystery thing. Anecdotally, I worked in a bookstore etc etc. And it's interesting that so very few women are represented among the widely recognized great artists (painters, I mean). There are a few, but a very few.

[livy_m_b]

I found this passage in Carl Jung's commentary on the Secret of the Golden Flower.

Quote: The Chinese would say in the words of the I Ching: When yang has reached its greatest strength, the dark power of yin is born within its depths, for night begins at midday when yang breaks up and begins to change to yin.

Cathy

As others have said, it should work both ways. When there is too much yang or yin the other enters. But what is the right amount of yin and yang, and is it the same for everyone except for those aspects that are determined by physicality?

When I have lots of female company it seems to compensate for cd (or to stimulate it!). Contrariwise, when I have lots of male company, it seems to have little effect. How does yin/yang explain this?

All that said, Jung and the concept of yin/yang does seem to say something important that can be disregarded only at one's peril. Each person has to find her own balance. (Okay, "his" too!)

[Cathy Anderson]

Marlena,

I think you're right about the basic irrational compensation. CDing is likely "overdetermined" in that there are multiple causes or conflicts that simultaneously support it. For example, (1) expression of the feminine; (2) expression of the irrational; (3) expression of repressed sexuality/sensuality.

Tina,

> rugby playing at school, and then serving in the army for 12+ years
> together with the stereo typical tattoos and moustache

Yours is a good example. A question I would have is the basic "chicken or egg" thing. While butch things are probably overcompensation, they presuppose that a man has strong masculine aptitude . Not every male could handle playing rugby, etc. So it could be that a lot of yang was there to begin with.

Marla,

> hard to imagine that one becomes a CD because of the job

Right. I would see it more as strong yang causing both career choice and CDing by two different causal processes, and not the chain:

strong yang --> career choice --> compensation by CDing

I think you're right on with the word, "control".

Cathy

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

We seem to do a lot of 'rebounding' - vacillating from one extreme to another.

Some of us. Myself, I think move from somewhat masculine of center to somewhat feminine of center rather than between extremes.

Then again, I'm more the intellectual type (I prefer a lively discussion over watching sports) and I work in a "creative" profession -- albeit one that's more "left-brained" than a lot of the design field -- and tend to hang out with people who are similar.

So I haven't felt as much of a need to "butch up" as others in different social/work contexts might. And in turn that may be why I don't feel the need to be hyper-femme, except for the occasional flight of fantasy.

[sarahjan]

Could too much 'Yin' drives one to persue more 'masculine' occupations as a form of overcompensation.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

Perhaps that would explain the numbers of current or ex-Serviceman.

[Wombat]

There seems to be a remarkable exception, if I have the right overview, murder mysterie novelists. Women seem to dominate this market in writing and reading (not sure, though).

Women don't dominate writing ... not sure if either gender does really. Women do dominate murder mysteries though because they seem to be able to do that genre better than men, who tend to be better at action and thriller. Like all this stuff, there are no definitive distinctions either.

Wombat

[Ms. Donna]

Some of us. Myself, I think move from somewhat masculine of center to somewhat feminine of center rather than between extremes.

Same here. While I was never very 'masculine', I did get reasonably good at doing the 'guy' thing, which made me feel more of a need to express (or undulge) the 'other' feelings I had. I'm now at a point where there isn't much back-and-forth - I'm just 'me' all the time.


Then again, I'm more the intellectual type (I prefer a lively discussion over watching sports) and I work in a "creative" profession -- albeit one that's more "left-brained" than a lot of the design field -- and tend to hang out with people who are similar.

I'll take a good discussion any time. That's why I love threads such as this - something around which one can wrap their brain for a bit. :)


So I haven't felt as much of a need to "butch up" as others in different social/work contexts might. And in turn that may be why I don't feel the need to be hyper-femme, except for the occasional flight of fantasy.

I personally feel uncomfortable trying to be too feminine - it just isn't me. By the same token, too much 'butching up' really feels wrong. Luckily, I haven't had to make a continuously strong masculine presentation for a long time now.

Love & Stuff,
Donna