What if ?

[Maria 60]

Our friends came over for a drink last night, after a couple of glasses they started opening up about there person problems. They told us that there son came out to them that he is gay. They told us that the no reaction on our faces it didn't surprise us. He started venting aggressively about its the governments fault, they open the door for them with all gender washrooms and worst of all there teaching it in schools. They told us that they told there siblings and parents and they were ok with it but he said he comes from a family of hunters and construction workers and he sees the look on his fathers face when he's son walks in the room, a almost look of disgust. There family was so bonded and now it's very awkward and everything has changed.
We told them when our son was seventeen or eighteen that he never had a girlfriend and never spoke of girls and we were kind of thinking that he was gay and we were going to stand beside him and support him and we were very surprised when one day he showed up with a girlfriend. We told them we can see they are upset but there son didn't wake up one morning and decide to be gay or put on a dress because they taught it in school. Back in our days it was there but we weren't allowed to talk about it but it was there, there were the more confident people who were transvestites and openly gay back then. We admitted that we kind of had an idea about there son but just like our son you just never know. Well after that you could imagine the huge elephant in the room being very careful of what we were saying and now things became awkward with us.
After they left my wife told me that her biggest fear was if my dressing should come out how our bonded family would be. She explained that I'm not really doing anything crazy but my usual Friday night drive is a weekness. I could get into an accident or be seen, if for whatever reason I should get caught in the house it could be interpreted as a private thing but getting caught out in public is different. She feels that if I was to come out it would also cause a lot of awkward situations with there family and especially on our children. I told her i don't have to go on the Friday night drive but that she also encourages it. I guess now that she seen what our friends are feeling I guess it opened her eyes and maybe she doesn't want to lose the relationship we have now and it will definitely change things not knowing how people will react. She felt the Friday drive was good for my, a chance to express myself and that I work hard and almost like something to look forward to. I told her not to worry that I can do without and it's not worth it if she's going to be worried about it every time I go out and I thanked her for honesty and that we can have an open and civil conversations about this.
Well I will miss the drives and she did suggest maybe go once a month instead of every week, almost like a compromise but to me not worth my wife to be worried. I thought I would share another hurdle in our lives.

[kimdl93]

Honestly, you need to think about the probabilities involved. Yes, you could get into an accident, but the odds for any person getting into an auto accident are pretty low. But then to avoid that, you could dress at home. Still, even at home there there are risks. An unexpected visitor coming to the door or walk in before you could hide. You could be sitting inside minding your business and see a passerby fall and lying in the street. Would you rush to help or run to the bathroom to change? Your wife could, god forbid, have a medical emergency. You know you would feel compelled to help her regardless of how you are dressed. And of course, you could have a heart attack and there wouldn?t be time or inclination to change while you?re clutching your chest.

The point is we cannot let very low probability events control our lives.

But please don?t alter your life because that couple was angry about their son. In the typical American fashion of this decade, they want to blame someone else, possibly because deep down inside they fear they somehow caused his homosexualilty. Of course, it was nothing they did. There is a 1/10 chance that every male child might be gay. Obviously they don?t know or understand the origins of homosexuality, so they express their ignorance as fear.

[bridget thronton]

You and your wife always been good about talking things through, keep it up. My wife told me that if I was going out dressed I need to tell our adult children - so I could control the story and I was glad I did (I have not told my in-laws or my brother's family per my wife's wishes)

[JulieC]

What kimdl93 said. I wholeheartedly agree that we can't allow low probability events to control us. I understand about taking reasonable precautions against being discovered by people whom you would rather not have know about your crossdressing. But ultimately, you can't control it. Such a notion is flawed. There's no way you can guarantee non-discovery. Relatives of mine were on holiday in Israel, and ran into another couple from the same small town in California where they live. Odd things happen, and you can't control it. You never can.

At the end of the day, the people who love you will maintain their bonds and the people who don't...won't.

[docrobbysherry]

What a wonderful post, Maria! Clearly pointing out the difficult choices those of us that r older and wish to start dressing after marrying and having families have to make!:sad:

It seems whatever we choose causes problems for someone!:doh:

But, speaking of auto accidents? I was on my way to a T event in Vegas a few years ago and was involved in a 3 car collision. The guy in the car in front of me and I jumped out rite away. There was no apparent damage and we were fine. Then, I went to check on the woman who rear ended me, causing the accident. Her car was badly damaged and she was shook up but ok. We all exchanged information and the guy and I drove off but the woman had to call a tow truck.:sad:

It wasn't until I was driving away that I realized no one seemed to notice I was obviously a homely old man dressed like fancy hooker. And, I forgot that myself until then!:eek:

So, worrying how you're dressed in an accident may NOT be as important as u think!:straightface:

[NancyJ]

I feel sad for your friends son that his parents are homophobes and lack empathy. This story is a reminder why we must be discreet. The world remains full of hate and bigotry. Nancy

[Stephanie47]

Thanks for the post, Maria. Two issues; first, the acceptance of somebody's sexual identity, etc. Secondly, the "what if?"

There are way too many people who are like your friends. They are ready to toss out a son or daughter like household garbage because the child comes out as gay, lesbian or transgender. The entire issue is surrounded by ignorance. Does the father think the issues comes back to him? Genetics? Nurturing? This "violation" of expected societal norms causes a lot of angst. Frankly, these are times when society is sliding backwards.

Probably, the following should be posted in the "media" section, but I suck at linkage. This week's episode of NBC's; Law & Order: Special Victims Unit dealt with the death of a trans son whose body was found attired in women's clothing by a NYC police detective. I found the episode covering much of the issues Maria's friend was expressing. It is worth hunting down on reruns.

As to the issue of the unexpected and unwanted "reveal." "Shit happens." You cannot control everything, but you have to be ready to accept the consequences of your actions. It starts right at home as you can read right here, all the time. Wife finds your stash of clothing. Wham! Imagine you live in a small town with a weekly newspaper that reports something as benign as traffic violations. In Putnam County, NY the local newspaper ran those traffic violations as news. What if, you have an accident. The reporter shows up and you're attired in that pretty dress and high heels and your picture is now front page news? Risk v reward.

[Helen_Highwater]

Maria,

Your friend's family are of a past generation. Things have moved on. It's down to each of them to come to some sort of compromise. Father needs to understand his son is what he is. Not learned behaviour, it's just who he is. There have always been Gays and you can't blame their being gay on mixed bathrooms or schools promoting it. They didn't exist but gays did. If the grandfather is disparaging of his grandson, that's his loss.

As for your situation. it's always possible to find reasons not to do something but you need to weigh up the probabilities of something going wrong against the value going out has to you and the fulfilment it brings. You could be dressed to the nines and the house could catch fire and next thing you know you're out in the street for all to see. Not likely to happen but you could use it as a reason not to dress. You have to rationalise these situations and find a balance of probabilities. You've been going out regularly for some time and all has been well. So is there any reason not to continue?

[Geena75]

Well, when you talk about avoiding risks, I guess I am stark raving mad! Yesterday I had not only that day, but the next day off, and a support group was having a meeting about 90 miles away. I also had it worked out to meet a member a couple of hours earlier, so a nice time planned. Then we get a snow event, bands of lake effect snow coming across this half the state. I check all for forecasts and they look pretty tolerable, so off I go. The trip there was mostly clear highway with a few tough patches. Stay until a little after nine and head back, but now the highway is snow covered almost all the way with near blizzard patches. Takes me over 2 hrs to get back. A hundred bad things could have happened, with me full Geena all the while. Still, worth the risk for spending a great afternoon/evening with friends.

[docrobbysherry]

Geena, this thread is all about risks and rewards. Which is why your post confuses me. Even in Calif. our mountains get snow. So, we all expect conditions after dark to become colder and more dangerous. U must have known that, too?

U already had your "reward" so taking that "risk" driving back dressed wasn't necessary was it? U had no reason to remain as Geena anymore and could have easily switched clothes before driving back. But, u chose not to. I wondered why?

It takes me up to an hour to dress to the 9's. But, about 10 minutes to get it all off, including makeup!:heehee:

[Heather76]

Maria, here's my take.

With regards to your friends' reaction to their son coming out as gay, you can, when appropriate, advocate for him. When you are with your friends, should they again mention him being gay you can help educate them that this is not a choice or a learned behavior. Play it by ear as it may be best to offer your thoughts in small doses.

With regard to the "What if" scenarios, I'd encourage you to keep doing what you and your wife have been comfortable with in the past. The first time I went out dressed, my wife asked what would happen if I were in an accident. My response was simple - I've been driving for 61 years and have yet to be involved in an accident so I think the odds are really low I'll be in one when dressed. Now, if I were in an accident and it was minor, I'd exchange insurance info, have a police report done, and leave. If it were major and I required medical treatment, I believe the fact that I'm dressed would be of no significance when compared to my physical wellbeing being in jeopardy.

When you've lived long enough, your perspective might change. I've beaten cancer. I had emergency quad by-pass. I lost 100% of my hearing in 1 ear due to diabetes. I am insulin dependent. I'm now getting eye shots to prevent going blind. My perspective is that my crossdressing is no big deal compared to these other issues in my life. The fact my wife would feel great embarrassment if my CDing became common knowledge with family and friends is the only reason I remain 99% in the closet. Yes, if I stepped completely out of the closet, I'm certain some friendships would be lost. That would be their problem and not mine.

"What ifs" are just that - what if...... What if you won Power Ball. What if you died tonight. What if, what if, what if. All those possibilities can drive a person crazy if you let them. What if we just live our lives in a respectful manner and be glad we're able to express ourselves as we like - even with our self-imposed limitations.

[Gillian Gigs]

They say that there is six degrees of separation from knowing everyone in the world. I have been in Mexico and ran into someone I knew. I have been in Switzerland and run into someone who was a friend of a friend of mine. I could keep going, but the point is that whether good, or bad luck anything can happen. If you don't want to risk getting caught CD'ing, then stay inside at home.

Everyone has their opinion of what is right and wrong. Your friends have their opinion and you have yours, so just keep your CD'ing thoughts to yourself, unless you want a heated discussion!

It is just so sad to hear about a family disowning a child/sibling because of a behaviour, or life style.

[sometimes_miss]

Your friend's family are of a past generation.
Not so much. There are plenty of places where time has sort of stopped, and the rampant homophobia is quite easy to come across among many of the younger generation out here in the red states of the U.S.. Since I moved away from the big cities out to the farm sections of the bible belt, I overhear discussions of political nature, which winds up with derogatory comments about those of us who don't fall into the traditional roles in society.

It's not completely a modern world just yet.

[Fiona_44]

Maria,

In thinking of your family first, I think you did the exact right thing.

Hugs,
Fiona

[Aunt Kelly]

Family or not, fear and ignorance should be called out. No, I'm not saying that one has to come out in order to call out hatred for what it is, but call it out we should.

[DianeT]

Maria your wife gives you so much leeway that it's tough to contradict her when she for once wants to reduce the amplitude. However I agree with members saying you can't control everything and the odds of being in an accident while dressed are low (I would think the odds of being recognized at the wheel or filling up your gas tank at night would seem much higher).
But odds and statistics may only go as far to cure your wife's anxiety. She's worried, and whether the cold hard facts be on her side or not, I think you are doing the right thing, giving something out of love to a wife who gave you so much out of love already.

[TheHiddenMe]

I feel sad for your friends son that his parents are homophobes and lack empathy. This story is a reminder why we must be discreet. The world remains full of hate and bigotry. Nancy

In a lot of ways, there is much less bigotry and hate these days. The reason is because gay and trans people came out and people became more accepting because they knew someone who is gay or trans and they realized that person wasn't a bad person.

Look at the numbers. Support for gay marriage is at all time highs. Yes, some politicians are bullying trans kids because they know they have no other ideas and they are losing their grasp on the world. Fewer and fewer people follow religions that scapegoat guys and trans people.

Maria, if your family members are such bigots, is it really a loss to not be as closely bonded to them as you currently are?

[Aka_Donna]

We should not be labeling people who disagree "bigots". It block communication. We don't appreciate being labeled pervs, etc. so enough with the quick labels. Rather the guests were struggling to make sense of the differences between those family younger than them and those older than them. I think you helped them along. Was it awkward, well, yeah, but it was an opportunity to learn how to present your case so it could be understood.

Friday fears are unreasonable, but can be reduced by discussion of worst case, most likely case, and best case scenarios.

Back again to adult children. It really is time for you to discuss with them. You'll probably learn as we did the fear of worst was no where near actual. Even with most negative, it came out well. I totally did not expect that.

[GretchenM]

Probabilities apply to everything. The genes you inherited that form the foundation of you could have been different. A little different or a whole lot different. But the probability of someone being gay is somewhere around 5 in 100. It is even less for gender variant. You are more likely to get killed in a car accident than if you are walking, but you can get killed either way. There is about 1 in 6 million chances that you will be killed by lightning if you are outside and almost zero inside and even less if you live in a cave. We can't all live in caves and besides there may be disease carrying bats that live in the cave.

We can't live in fear that something rare will happen - life is just plain risky in so many ways. So, if your friends had had 100 children by probability alone about 5 would be gay. Dang that is a pretty high chance? The important thing is to accept what happens because, to some extent, you have no control over it. Except you can make good choices - don't go for the drive and eventually feel terrible because you are depriving yourself of something that is important to keeping your identity stable and comfortable or go for a drive and decrease the probability of an accident by being extra cautious. Of course there is always the probability that someone else is not paying attention and that alone keeps the probability of an accident higher than if you were walking.

Rejection of a child because they didn't turn out to be what you hoped would happen is, in my mind, one of the worst things someone can do. If they are gay it is not the parent's fault; it is not likely they did anything wrong. Bigotry is based on a desire to completely control the person's environment and a belief that what we do in the course of our lives is always a choice. Who has the right to do that? Nobody! Nobody at all. It is an action based on a negative view of others if they do not comply with your own belief that what you think should be is absolutely correct. It is the old "Look, Johnnie is the only one of the soldiers that is in step. All the others don't know how to march in step."

To me the answer is compassion, empathy, understanding of the reality and not applying some golden ideal that nobody really meets. Sharing, caring, smiles and hugs that show you care about the problem the person is having and most of all recognizing how important the person's life and activities are to themselves. I feel very sorry for your friends because their perspective is self-destructive and also family destructive. The expectation that every male should have a woman at his side is based on an idealism that is not realistic.

Perhaps a compromise with your wife is the appropriate path because it permits the needs of both to be met to some degree without one person controlling the other which is marital bigotry. Be considerate of each other's needs and find a middle ground. Don't rule over each other but learn the art of compromising where both get something that they want but neither gets everything they want. Why go on drives only on Fridays? Why not do that when the situation in your combined schedules is comfortable and appropriate for the time? To me you both need to be more flexible and understanding of the reality of each other's needs. If you both choose to be more considerate of the needs and concerns of each you will find comfortable middle grounds. I have been married for 53 years and the only way that happened was to be considerate of each other's needs and set aside idealistic thinking. Works great.

[jazmine]

Earthlings. I don't know what to say. Sometimes the inhabitants on this rock are so boxed in their little fish bowl and can't contemplate past their own two eyes, and beyond the glass they're behind. Growing pains I hope. But I'm not betting on it. ;) Maria60 You rock! I always love reading your posts.

[Aunt Kelly]

We should not be labeling people who disagree "bigots".

Really? What then, should we call those stoke hatred against another who is different in ways that are absolutely no threat to the hater?

[DianeT]

Maria did not describe them as haters, they look more uninformed and uneasy with the subject, and anxious of family reactions.
Now, about that modern world rustling with tolerance... a sad news came in today.

[Dutchess]

Really? What then, should we call those stoke hatred against another who is different in ways that are absolutely no threat to the hater?

You shouldn't at least not in this moment the OP describes above.. those parents have every right to raise that kid however they see fit..not you.. you stay OUT of parents business unless they are actively wailing/beating on the kid.

In reality I cannot say here what my husband ( the straight redneck homoHATRED one) would have done if a man wearing a dress or impersonating a woman attempted to tell him or us anything about raising our kids. It would have been extreme.
MYOB ..
Seriously..
You do not know what sort of backlash that child could receive after such a dressing down or "calling out". Don't do it . You are liable to put him in a bad place. That child will grow up and work it out one way or the other.. shaming people won't help.

Ironically the reason that most parents who are like this feel the way they do is not so much hatred or bigotry but instead a deep down very real fear of what their child might surely well go through as a gay person. Especially here in the states.

[char GG]

Maria and wife were trying to reason with the friends who appear to be more conflicted, (perhaps shocked) and uninformed than "haters" or "bigots". It sounds to me like the friends need more education and compassion. Unless we are in their shoes, we really don't know how they feel, and it would be unfortunate to label them. There are many people who have never encountered CDers, trans, or gay people (that they know of). My own mother was in her forties and shocked that there were gay people. I realize it's hard for this population to understand that, especially in this world today, but it happens.

Also, as Dutchess says, fear of what kind of life their child will have in the future could be a factor. (Maybe the parents dream of grandchildren and now they think that will never happen - type of thing.)

Maybe with Maria and wife's understanding, the friends will learn that they need to educate themselves or possibly be cut off from their son.

As far as Maria's Friday night drives, I don't know if her wife is willing to drive with her. If she is uncomfortable, it is very compassionate of Maria to drop that activity unless things change again. Maybe Maria will just dress at home for a while. Her wife has been Maria's greatest supporter.

[MarinaTwelve200]

In response to Char GG: Its my experience and observation that IGNORANCE about crossdressers, Gays and Trans people is often PROFOUND within the "muggle" population. Its not uncommon to discover that many people think CDers are GAY and gays are transsexuals.---("Men who think they are women"), thus putting everything in one basket. Even worse, many also claim that gays are seeking both straight men and children to have sex with. With such myths abounding, it is no wonder that I restrict my own activities to the closet. Am I Paranoid?

I think this is the result of high Schoolers depending on locker room myths for their sexual education and the words of their equally ignorant peers. And then NEVER later checking them out from reputable sources when they get older. even into mature adulthood. I also think some people may mistakenly think they are (secretly) "gay" or "trans" if they are ONLY CD--- (or possibly completely "normal") simply because they still hold to those Myths of their youth. This would explain why suddenly we have so many "Trans" people outing themselves today--When the real condition is actually quite rare. This is why extensive Psychological help prior to "transitioning" is very important.--Which, nowadays, many fail to get.

It my opinion that this Anti-CD, Anti-Gay and Anti-Trans hostility we see today is based on MYTHS and Confusions people learn in their youth and never bothered to look up-- I can't imagine why not, but some folks are that way. I was always reading encyclopedias when I was a kid and learned the truth early on, so my own CD didn't bother me. But what about lucky "normal" folks who are not affected by CD, Homosexually, etc. I suppose they must simply not care and simply go along with the myths.---And STAY ignorant.

NOTE: Lest I am misunderstood, (which often happens here) I am not putting down Gays or Trans people. Only reporting the nonsense that Homophobes, etc. tell me. and thus might be the root of much of the hate and abuse we risk or experience today.

[TheHiddenMe]

I am out to one person in my male life (save my wife and a couple of ex-girlfriends from many years ago). My friend is the mother of a adult non-binary child, born female, identifies as non-binary, and presents male. I decided to tell her because I thought my friend needed to know she had an ally who understood at least some of the the issues she and their child might face. She felt honored that I trusted her.

Today she sent me an email from the Trevor Project, which helps trans youth. Here is an excerpt:


In 2022, fewer than 1 in 3 transgender and nonbinary young people found their home to be gender-affirming, but acceptance from at least one adult can decrease the risk of LGBTQ youth attempting suicide by 40%.

So, unlike some posters think, when Maria and her wife intervene and try to persuade the parents they are absolutely doing the right thing. Read the above. Getting acceptance from one adult lowers the suicide risk by 40%. Their nephew needs an ally.

And, contrary to other posters, kids of today are FAR more accepting than those of a generation before. They have access to far more information on their phones than any generation before them. There have been demonstrations in schools supporting LGBT kids. The kids are alright; it is the adults who are the problem.

The misinformation is spread by individuals who wish to maintain power. There was a video lately of a woman speaking at a public meeting that while she was never sexually abused by a drag queen she was sexually abused twice in church, but those in power are trying to curry favor with the church.

And that spreading of misinformation cost five lives in Colorado Springs yesterday, based on all available reporting.

Maria, be there for your nephew. And if your drives keep you sane, keep doing them.

[DianeT]

So, unlike some posters think, when Maria and her wife intervene and try to persuade the parents they are absolutely doing the right thing.
Where did you see exactly posters saying that Maria and her wife didn't do the right thing?


And, contrary to other posters, kids of today are FAR more accepting than those of a generation before. They have access to far more information on their phones than any generation before them. There have been demonstrations in schools supporting LGBT kids. The kids are alright; it is the adults who are the problem.
And yet, you allude further in your post to a shooting that wasn't the making of an old timer. I don't say you are wrong, but you are painting a picture of the young society that seems a bit simplistic. Yes they have access to a lot more information. But that doesn't mean they know how to sort it out, compare point of views, and make up their own opinions without being influenced by all kinds of negative ones. I don't think the social networks, who favor emotions other thinking, are necessarily shaping a more tolerant future. And many people see the tolerance issue from their own situation and context. Depending on the streets and boroughs they walk, their origin, their family story, they may experience a very different reality from one another.


And if your drives keep you sane, keep doing them.
I don't consider the "my way or the highway" stance, with zero empathy for the wife, to be a recipe for lasting couples. I commend Maria for accepting to compromise. Maria isn't yielding, she's intelligently investing in her couple by adjusting to a new situation. One could call this business acumen, but in the end she may simply love her wife and wish to keep her happy and serene.

[Shelly Preston]

I can understand if parents have concerns for their children. I worry about the child when the parents blame the Goverment and Schools. Not to mention the disgust on the fathers face when his son walked in. It seems to me they have clearly no understanding of gender issues. I would say they are more worried about what people will think of them than their son.

I hope the son has some sort of support network.

[TheHiddenMe]

Where did you see exactly posters saying that Maria and her wife didn't do the right thing?

What I wrote is that Maria and wife were right to intervene to best serve their nephew. Having read a number of her posts, I know it's not the first time they have intervened on behalf of the nephew, and she and her wife are to be commended for doing so.

And the answer to your question is post 23.

As to young people, look at the voting results on campuses during the elections. In some cases, the votes for the more progressive candidates were in excess of 90%. Young people are specifically rejecting the "hate the LBGT" message some are sending.

Yes, there are a handful of young people who take action on their own using things we are not allowed to talk about on these boards. Do you think they came up with those ideas on their own? And, not so coincidentally, the same people who spread the "hate the LGBT" message happen to be the very same people who prevent actions against the things we can't talk about on this board.

I've made my opinions known, and I won't be posting further on this thread.

[Natalie5004]

Geena, this thread is all about risks and rewards. Which is why your post confuses me. Even in Calif. our mountains get snow. So, we all expect conditions after dark to become colder and more dangerous. U must have known that, too?

U already had your "reward" so taking that "risk" driving back dressed wasn't necessary was it? U had no reason to remain as Geena anymore and could have easily switched clothes before driving back. But, u chose not to. I wondered why?

It takes me up to an hour to dress to the 9's. But, about 10 minutes to get it all off, including makeup!:heehee:

I dealt with snow back east for 50 years. It is different back there. Not so much snow and people know how to drive in it, mostly. Here a snow event is at 5000 ft or higher elevation mostly. The conditions are FAR WORSE in a California snow event. Trust me.

[DianeT]

And the answer to your question is post 23.
Thanks, I was wondering. You may want to check Dutchess' post again. She isn't saying Maria and her wife did anything wrong. She is just responding to Kelly about labelling parents as bigots (which Maria and her wife did not).

[alwayshave]

I worry about the child when the parents blame the Goverment and Schools.

Shelly, to those who believe sexuality is choice, it's easier to blame the government or school than themselves. We all no it is not a choice, unfortunately this young man's parents do not.