Who can blame us

[Keremy]

On vacation in Florida and enjoying looking at all the different styles of women?s clothing. Wife is not accepting of men wearing women?s clothing but how can she blame us for wanting to wear women?s clothes?

There is a conference going on in the motel and all the men are wearing shorts or pants, tennis shoes or dress shoes, and shirts are button up, long sleeve pull over, polo, or t-shirts the only thing different is what is written on them.

This is not the case with women. None of them have anything that even looks similar to each other. Line everyone in dresses up and you see a wide range of lengths, strapless, spaghetti straps, thicker straps, sleeves short and long. Different fabrics, different colors with different patterns. Same is true for those wearing pants or shorts.

This morning I spoke with a woman on the beach I thought she was wearing a long light weight cotton sundress. I was right about it being a sundress but it was made out of a light weight breathable satin material that freely flowed around her and once again I thought ?Who can blame us?? Why is it to some people inconceivable that men would like to wear the wonderful things women wear. Just my thoughts for the day.

Hope you have a chance to wear something wonderful today!

[Kitty S]

You have a point there. In nature the male is usually the colorful one, needing to attract a mate. It's funny to me that most of the things GG's hate is what I love. Bra's, Heels, Nylons and wearing makeup.

[Natalie5004]

I have brought that subject up to my wife many times. She tells me that I can look good too. Dress like Johnny Rose in Shitt's Creek. I prefer to dress like Moira.

[luuv2dress]

I have definitely had this thought myself. Woman have so many choices and always look comfortable while I'm in hot shorts and shirt during summer while they catch all the breeze........

[Maid_Marion]

Last summer I wore a brightly colored Lily Pulitzer skirt to a potluck party.
A GG confided to me that she wished her diet were effective enough that she could wear her's!

I am back to wearing heels all the time.
I did the laundry this morning wearing 2inch wedges.
I have no trouble getting up and down the stairs to the basement. I can hold the basket and hold the handrail at the same time!

I can wear size 2P right off the rack! The sleeves are just the right length. 28" is just a little long, perfect for wearing heels!
There are plenty of high waisted styles for those of us with a thin waist that falls two inches above their belly button.
It isn't hard for me to find an exact fit.

With mens clothes XS is a little big and the colors are often hideous if you can find anything in the stores.
Sort of a women's size small but with different proportions.
It is like someone is mocking you for being small.
The sleeves are way too long. I'd fold them back as it was too much work for me to shorten them with a sewing machine.

[docrobbysherry]

I must side with your SO on this one. Dressers r not typical men!:battingeyelashes:
As a typical guy until my 50's, I never even thot about wearing women's things!:eek:

And, since about 95% men think that way? We're r the odd ones, not them!:sad:

[alwayshave]

Keremy, I have thought this my entire life. I have a dozen suits for work, but they all look the same.

[Genifer Teal]

On vacation in Florida and enjoying looking at all the different styles of women?s clothing. Wife is not accepting of men wearing women?s clothing but how can she blame us for wanting to wear women?s clothes?

We are not "most men". Most men are not giving clothes a second thought and are thinking even less about women's clothes. What might seem normal to us isn't always to everyone.

[NancySue]

My sense is most men, deep down enjoy being comfortable including clothes. Yeah, during working years, I wore suits, ties, socks, etc. but after 5:00 it was so nice to change into comfortable clothes. My dear wife never understood how I could be comfortable wearing underwires, hose, heels, etc. I just smile. Now retired, I?m comfortable daily.

[JesseVF]

100% - I find it actually depressing sometimes wearing jeans and t shirts every day. Always jealous of the variety women can wear - basically anything!

[Traci H]

The variety on the other side of the aisle is so fascinating. I want to try them all. Yea, that cotton tee shirt and jeans gets old. I can?t tell you how many times in summer I asked my wife what she is wearing, trying to decide between jeans or shorts. Then I look at her and she is wearing capris. I don?t have that option. Not one my wife will endorse for sure. Those are strictly in a woman?s domain around here. That is just one tiny example. Don?t get me started on necklines for women?s tops!!!

[Bea_]

A century ago, it was unlawful for women to wear pants in many states and municipalities. Many of those laws didn't come off the books until mid-twentieth century. I am not suggesting it, but I can only imagine the blowback if women were suddenly denied the right to wear pants. If pants and pants-like apparel were not available to women, the greatest part of virtually all women's wardrobes would be illegal. And much of what women wear on the street on a daily basis would have been scandalous before the seventies.

I personally appreciate the freedom that women have gained over the last century. I appreciate the variety that's available to them.

[ReineD]

Who can blame us??

It's because most people don't have a fixation for clothing like crossdressers do. Not even women! Most of us choose clothes for comfort and convention - for example, I might not wear torn jeans to a nice restaurant or a dressy dress to a pizza parlor. We don't choose clothes because we cannot resist the styles, colors, or patterns like you do.

Within the confines of what's relatively conventional for my lifestyle, I choose clothes based on the quality of the fabric (Will it wash well? Will it last longer than a dozen washes?) or how they fit on my body. Are the shirt, pants, or skirt long enough? Is there too much spandex in the fabric? Or will it shrink? I don't care how thick the straps are or what color it is, or whether the sleeves are short or three quarters, or whether the neckline is crew neck or square, or whether the top is patterned or plain. I just want it to fit well, last a while, and be comfortable.


Yea, that cotton tee shirt and jeans gets old.

You do realize that's what most of us wear most of the time? Maybe not at a resort or at work, but certainly at home or while we're running errands. :)

[Traci H]

You do realize that's what most of us wear most of the time? Maybe not at a resort or at work, but certainly at home or while we're running errands. :)

Reine, I do realize that most dress as you state when off duty so to speak. Comfort is king for the most part. Still within those parameters there are more choices. My wife gets upset if I wear a magenta shirt! No such limits on women it seems. It?s the other 10% or so that is the kicker. We have a fairly fancy wedding coming up. My wife is shopping for all kinds of dresses. The choices seem endless. Me, I have a choice of a dark suit, or a darker suit or a black suit. I sure would like me some color. Oh yea, I can get a colored tie. Whoppee! Hell I was recently buying a new bike and spotted one in a color liked and ventured towards it. ?Oh, that?s a women?s bike? the sales guy states. Yeah, I should have known. The guys version would be black or gray. Oh, maybe a red stripe if I?m lucky. Just the way it is, but not stopping me from indulging in the prettier side of life if I can help it.

[Miel GG]

Maybe your wife doesn't like magenta or maybe she is a conservative one. About you, you need to shop elsewhere, in a bigger city or on line. There are now plenty of choice for fancy wedding guests suits, they comes in all shades of color. They are also patterned ones, classic or not at all (do you like flowers for example ? ) ! The same with bikes, with the younger generation of riders being less gender binary than the elders. You don't need to shop in the female department for variety, you simply want to because you are a CDer.

[Taylor186]

You don't need to shop in the female department for variety, you simply want to because you are a CDer.

Totally agree. I subscribe to a couple of NYC YouTube street wear channels. The variety in men's street fashion captured is mind boggling. Look around, it's out there.

[Dutchess]

Of course I agree with Miel 💯.. the last time I tried to show these people what was available when they can't wear women's clothing, I got royally slammed, so I won't be doing that again.


But to say they are no vivid colors, patterns fabrics etc etc is an excuse. You just don't want too. And most everyone sees that... it just doesn't have the turn on factor that you all crave.


I love the suit shops here in Hollywood the most beautiful red and silver Paisley's oh my gosh there's crystals on the shirts and suits and everything. Lame's, velvets, satins ....

I don't know what your home like is life with the dressing but that magenta shirt depending on how you behave through all this might serve as a red flag for her and she's afraid to let you go any farther.

[char GG]

I work for a concert venue. I see satin, sequin, velvet jackets, sequin shoes, beautiful embroidered shirts, very unique menswear. Those who say they can only wear shades of black clothing are obviously not looking for anything but black suits. If you want to CD, fine. But look around, men are wearing gorgeous clothes too.

[JohnH]

You have a point there. In nature the male is usually the colorful one, needing to attract a mate. It's funny to me that most of the things GG's hate is what I love. Bra's, Heels, Nylons and wearing makeup.

We can blame the dull and drab male attire to The Great Male Renunciation that occurred in the mid 1700's. Before that calamitous trend male attire was elaborate and colorful. This topic is described in Wikipedia
I have an account with skirtcafe.org where I have put the following in the signature block: "I renounce the Great Male Renunciation!!!".


I have definitely had this thought myself. Woman have so many choices and always look comfortable while I'm in hot shorts and shirt during summer while they catch all the breeze........

Then go wear a dress or skirt as everyday attire. I wear dresses as a man to shop, to doctor appointments, and church.
I have gotten virtually no pushback and a number of women have complimented my attire.


John

[sometimes_miss]

I often wonder, where the 'most men' referred to in responses comes from. None of the other CD guys I've met have an online account to 'show off' their hot bodies/outfits.

[Bea_]

You don't need to shop in the female department for variety, you simply want to because you are a CDer.

Steve Jobs famously wore a black turtleneck and Levi's jeans every day which would seem to indicate that the "need" for variety is not necessarily a thing. Variety is a desire.

As women have come to "need" to wear pants for various undertakings, starting noticeably during WW2, it seems that the actual need for dresses and skirts have disappeared. And, there's really no need for pantihose, lace, bows, nylon underwear or any number of things that women have at their disposal to wear. Other than a bra, there's not much, as far as clothing goes, that a woman "needs" that wouldn't be fulfilled as easily from the men's department.

Women wear pants without being considered crossdressing only because some women 100 years ago said "Screw it! I'm wearing pants". Those women wanted things that were allowed only to men. I'm not sure why the opposite is so questionable.

[ReineD]

Gosh I knew this would devolve into "women can wear pants and so why can't men wear skirts" again.

I agree with the other GGs. CDers wear women's clothes because they want to, not because there isn't variety and color available in men's clothing ... because there is. :)


Other than a bra, there's not much, as far as clothing goes, that a woman "needs" that wouldn't be fulfilled as easily from the men's department.

Except that women have hips bigger than their waists, which men don't, making men's pants unsuitable for women's bodies. And if dresses for men were a part of the western clothing culture and widely available, women still couldn't wear them. There would not be enough room in the chest area, and the hip area would be way too tight. Dresses purchased in men's stores simply would not fit.

... and most CDers would still want to purchases their dresses from women's and not men's stores, even if the colors and the fabrics were the same. :D



Women wear pants without being considered crossdressing only because some women 100 years ago said "Screw it! I'm wearing pants". Those women wanted things that were allowed only to men. I'm not sure why the opposite is so questionable.

No. It was rather like, "Screw it! (No pun intended :)) I will wear clothes that DO NOT signal accessibility ... because I am independent and strong, just like you. I can vote now. I am not chattel.

[OrdinaryAverageGuy]

Societal norms do not currently allow men the freedom of clothing options that women enjoy. Ignoring sizing issues, there is absolutely nothing in my side of the closet that my wife couldn't wear to Walmart without getting funny looks. However if I were to wear a dress or skirt, or heels, or an obvious bra, or anything with spaghetti straps, or anything with lace, or even a t-shirt with the neck scooped too far or short sleeves that are a little too short, or shorts that are a little too short, people will notice. Even if they're polite and don't say anything, there will be thoughts and comments made behind my back (I hear from others when they see something like this). Even I notice on the rare occasion when I see a guy in something feminine (my second thought is envy, but sadly my first isn't). If I were to wear such things to a gathering of my own friends there would be much laughter and jokes (from experience here)

When I do hear comments I defend the man who had the courage to wear whatever, but my opinions only go so far in changing minds.

Cudos to those of you who, like John H, just don't care and own it. I wish I had your guts. I do push the envelope a little more when we're at our vacation home, where I'm not worried about business repercussions, but I'm still a long way from wearing a cami and mini skirt into a restaurant even there.

PS, I have several dozen women's t-shirts, and many more men's t-shirts. ONE of my women's t-shirts is uncomfortable fabric, only about 6 of my men's shirts are as soft as the majority of the women's shirts. Why??

[ReineD]

However if I were to wear a dress or skirt, or heels, or an obvious bra, or anything with spaghetti straps, or anything with lace, or even a t-shirt with the neck scooped too far or short sleeves that are a little too short, or shorts that are a little too short, people will notice. Even if they're polite and don't say anything, there will be thoughts and comments made behind my back

But why would you want to dress in a way that shows more of your body and makes you look vulnerable as a sexual object. Most women are wanting to move away from that ... unless of course they want to look sexy. :)


We can blame the dull and drab male attire to The Great Male Renunciation that occurred in the mid 1700's. Before that calamitous trend male attire was elaborate and colorful.

Only aristocratic men dressed in finery. The working class couldn't afford it and so most men wore pants, which was more practical.

Wearing clothing associated with the aristocrats did become problematic during the French Revolution and so the toning down of finery for men (and also women during the revolution) was political and not done to abandon a claim to be beautiful, despite the suggestion of John Flugel, who came up with the renunciation concept in 1930. I wonder if he was a crossdresser.

This is the epigragh to Flugel's 1930 book, "The Psychology of Clothes".

"S'il m’etait permis de choisir dans le fatras des livres qui seront publics cent ans apres ma mort, .savez-vous celui que je prendrais? . . Non, ce n’est point un roman que je prendrais dans cette future bibliotheque, ni un livre d’histoire: quand il offre quelque interet c'est encore un roman. Je prendrais tout bonnement, mon ami, un journal de modes pour voir comment les femmes s’habilleront un siecle apres mon trepas. Et ces chiffons m’en diraient plus sur l'humanite future que tous les philosophes, les romanciers, les predicateurs, les savants." — Anatole France."

Translation
"If I were allowed to choose from the jumble of books that will be public a hundred years after my death, do you know which one I would choose? No, I would not choose a novel from this future library, nor a history book which, when it offers some interest is still a novel. I would simply pick up, my friend, a fashion journal to see how women will dress a century after my death. And these fashions would tell me more about future humanity than all the philosophers, the novelists, the preachers, the scientists." - Anatole France.

It reads as if Flugel really loves women's clothes! :) Here is a PDF of the entire book:

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.34079/page/n139/mode/2up

Turn to page 110, where you can read the section entitled "The Great Masculine Renunciation and its Causes". It reads as a crossdresser's complaint to me, until page 111 where Flugel does admit that the primary causes for abandoning finery were of a political and social nature, associated with the great social upheaval of the French Revolution. Alas, on page 114, Flugel again echoes the sentiments expressed in this thread along with another sentiment often expressed by crossdressers - the idea that women are jealous of one another's fashions. There might have been a modicum of truth to this when the book was written in 1930, when women were still dependent on men for their comfort and survival, but I believe this argument is no longer valid.

... and then we have it! On page 119, Flugel attempts to explain Eonism (crossdressing) by writing that CDers dress to sympathize and identify with their female lovers, or there is an unconscious refusal to accept the lack of a penis in women and therefore a self-identification with the imaginary penis-possessing woman. He also mentions on page 121 the idea of dressing up as a form of emasculation which is certainly an idea that is titillating to some if not many members here, and also brings forth the idea of dressing as a way to relieve the stress and responsibilities of everyday life - which I've often read here.

I had never heard of The Great Male Renunciation, and so it was fun to find out where the idea came from. Again, I wonder if the author was a crossdresser himself.

[DianeT]

At the very least he checked quite a few boxes. The crossdressers' posts seem to be invariant to the passing of time.
Thanks for an interesting review, and for two aspects of crossdressing that I wasn't aware of: the refusal to accept women without a penis and the dressing as a form of emasculation. The first one doesn't ring any bell (well it makes me think of something that can be easily be found on the web, but that I'm not interested in), as for the second one, is it titillating, well, in a prosaic form I'd say hell no, but in a more symbolic form that is an interesting angle for analyzing our proclivity. Erasing the male cues by covering them with female layers of props, clothes, makeup, jewelry, mannerisms may be after all a symbolic kind of emasculation. Escaping our male condition and immersing ourselves in a feminine alternative may also be thought of as a symbolic emasculation. I would prefer the term feminization to castration or emasculation, but the latter is, at least in symbolic form, a part of the process (to leave the male cues behind).
It is interesting to note that the CDer will need to chose one or the other, as it seems hard to reconcile a craving for women with penises with a desire for castration.

[Camille58]

To say that we crossdress because we can't find color in men's clothes is not accurate, in my case at least. I just really like wearing women's clothes! It touches a side of me that any clothing made for a man can't. I agree that in most everyday situations, men don't have the choices that women have. But there is a lot of color and opportunity for self expression in men's clothing nowadays.

[ReineD]

At the very least he checked quite a few boxes. The crossdressers' posts seem to be invariant to the passing of time.
Thanks for an interesting review, and for two aspects of crossdressing that I wasn't aware of: the refusal to accept women without a penis and the dressing as a form of emasculation.

Diane, don't forget that Flugel wrote his book only about 20 years after Freud came up with "penis-envy". Great strides have been made in psychology since then. :)

As to emasculation, pay attention to the fantasies expressed by many CDers here, if they can find a way to express their fantasies without being too graphic. If you read between the lines you will find that the concept of emasculation is rather appealing to many of our members.

[DAVIDA]

WOW! And to think that all these years I thought I just liked wearing female clothing.:daydreaming:
I may need to get some over the knee boots.
It's getting a bit deep for me.:heehee:

[OrdinaryAverageGuy]

[QUOTE=ReineD;4694966]But why would you want to dress in a way that shows more of your body and makes you look vulnerable as a sexual object. Most women are wanting to move away from that ... unless of course they want to look sexy. :)

Are you saying that if a woman wears women's clothes it makes her look vulnerable as a sexual object?

[ReineD]

Are you saying that if a woman wears women's clothes it makes her look vulnerable as a sexual object?

No, but there's a time and place for everything. There's a difference between the clothes I might choose to attract a man vs what I wear on a day-to-day basis.

My comment was based on your description of the clothes you enjoy. Almost everything you mentioned shows off the female form. And not all women's clothing show off their body parts.



However if I were to wear a dress or skirt, or heels, or an obvious bra, or anything with spaghetti straps, or anything with lace, or even a t-shirt with the neck scooped too far or short sleeves that are a little too short, or shorts that are a little too short, people will notice.

I see short shorts at the gym or beach, but not so much around town unless it is on a little girl. I seldom see Tshirts with a too low neckline, as you mentioned. The women I see around town seldom show any cleavage. Spaghetti straps also show more of the body than regular tank tops. High heels do enhance the look of legs and I seldom see women wearing them any more. They're not comfortable and they're not very good for your back. As to obvious bras, really I can't see the bras on most women that I come across. Most people I know don't wear sheer tops or tops so tight that you can see everything underneath.

So if you like to wear short shorts, plunging necklines, high heels with skirts or dresses (are they short too?), and if you like it when your bra is visible, then it reads as if you want to show your body.

I'm sorry if my comment offended you.

[Keremy]

This has become way more serious than I had intended just meant it as a fun little thought to think about. I know they are women?s but who can blame us 😉 😁

[Bea_]

Gosh I knew this would devolve into "women can wear pants and so why can't men wear skirts" again.

I agree with the other GGs. CDers wear women's clothes because they want to, not because there isn't variety and color available in men's clothing ... because there is. :)



Except that women have hips bigger than their waists, which men don't, making men's pants unsuitable for women's bodies. And if dresses for men were a part of the western clothing culture and widely available, women still couldn't wear them. There would not be enough room in the chest area, and the hip area would be way too tight. Dresses purchased in men's stores simply would not fit.

... and most CDers would still want to purchases their dresses from women's and not men's stores, even if the colors and the fabrics were the same. :D



No. It was rather like, "Screw it! (No pun intended :)) I will wear clothes that DO NOT signal accessibility ... because I am independent and strong, just like you. I can vote now. I am not chattel.

I won't comment on the whole of this because most of it would just come down to the two of us having different viewpoints. But I find the comment about dresses and skirts "signaling accessibility" to be very problematic. It seems to disrespect both men and women.

That interpretation just begs too many questions...

- After claiming or being given the option of wearing pants, why would any woman publicly signal accessibility by wearing a dress?
- Why would any self respecting man stand by while his wife "signals accessibility" to the world?
- Why would any parent allow a daughter to be put in a dress?

I have never looked at a woman in a dress and felt like she was accessible to me and I have never seen my wife and daughter as having signaled accessibility by wearing a dress.

I fully understand the superior functionality of pants for anyone for day to day living. And I would also add that a dress causes a certain vulnerability that pants do not cause. But, to attribute that vulnerability as a "signal" just doesn't seem to pan out in any practical way.

[ReineD]

I won't comment on the whole of this because most of it would just come down to the two of us having different viewpoints. But I find the comment about dresses and skirts "signaling accessibility" to be very problematic. It seems to disrespect both men and women.

The idea of dresses and skirts signaling accessibility actually came from my SO. A few years ago we went out to dinner. I was wearing a blue-jean skirt just above the knee and a not-tight Tshirt, with sandals that had a 2" chunk heel. I noticed that men were turning their heads as I walked by. I asked my SO why men would notice me more when I had bare legs. He said it was because I was wearing a skirt, which in their imagination signaled accessibility. I always knew that men looked at women who either showed their legs, cleavage, or wore tight clothes to emphasize the female form, but it had never occurred to me that skirts removed a barrier in a man's imagination.

So I suppose your argument is with another CDer and not me. And to be clear, of course men are different ages and also have different levels of libido, and so not all men would look at a woman that way. But a significant number of them do.


EDIT
I can understand why this knowledge would not be intuitive for a CDer, since CDers when dressed like men have not experienced, from teenage-years on, being looked at appreciatively by guys.

But I've noticed that many CDers dress as if they WANT to be looked at appreciatively by guys and this has always puzzled me, since they profess to be hetero.

... hence my question in this thread that started this facet of the discussion

[DianeT]

I think you are talking of different things. Bea of dresses, any dress, Reine of short and tight-fitting skirts and shorts. I remember some literature from the seventies that I read as a child where the author would rant about pantyhose replacing stockings in women's attire. It spoke about gams in stockings being so much more beautiful as a view than the dreaded sausage skin (as Char here would put it ;) ), but quickly enough it boiled down in fact to pantyhose making it more complicated to have sex. So, accessibility? Definitely a thing in men's eyes. Maybe in the back of their mind, but there all right. So I don't think it is disrespectful for men and women to talk about it. And like Reine said, you haven't been raised a girl, and wearing a skirt when raised as a girl is a whole universe of rules and commands and fears boys haven't any clue about, CDer or not. Char often mentions the frustration of not being able to climb trees while the boys could, my wife would tell you about little boys trying to lift little girls' skirts because they very well understood what accessibility meant. We may wear dresses but that won't make us girls, and we'll still view the world with boys' eyes and ignore or dismiss the feelings of grown up genetic girls telling us their side of the story.

Back to the OP, in this type of debate I fully agree with my wife when she says that we just want to chose from the women's aisle because we are crossdressers. All the rest is just rationalization. A good example in my case, my wife offered me to buy skirts designed for men. I declined because I need the skirts to be designed for women or they won't appeal to me. I am not into the clothes. I am into the essence of femininity that I perceive in the clothes. For this reason, heels, pantyhose and tight-fitting tops and skirts or dresses will appeal to me. Because they are the opposite of what I'd typically wear as a man. Because they're sexy? No, I feel I can be sexy too as a man in men's clothes. Because they make me look fragile? Ding, yes that one rings a bell. Women dressed in form-revealing clothes look more like sexual objects than their more casually dressed sisters. They seem more "accessible" to my man's preying instincts, or education has told me this was exciting, I don't know. But it does something to me, like it does to most men as far as I can tell. So, do I want to reproduce this and be a sexual object when I dress? No. I just want to immerse myself in a sea of female cues that are definitely, unmistakably out of the common male experience. Do I want to dress as a fragile, a submissive thing? I suppose this can be a kick for some members given some testimonies I read here. But for me, the attraction a woman dressed like this can exert on me isn't fragility but power. And her attire isn't a weak shell exposing her forms but a battle suit. And that is what I feel when dressing, I want power and I want style. I want to walk in the shoes of these women who impressed me and get some of the vibes I imagined they could feel when I contemplated them. It's much in my head, though. I have a photo of my wife getting dressed and putting on her boots for a party and she's splendid to look at. But she didn't feel it at the time, she was just getting dressed, you see. Me, I see a goddess ruling the world of men, and certainly not a fragile thing offered to males' desire. But again, that's me, and what was in my wife's head at that point was probably just how to get the damn zipper up without pinching the leather.
For the same reason, when I do MIAD (man in a dress) sessions with my wife, I tone down the dressing, wear sometimes a male top, but the most rewarding experience is when I wear female clothes from top to bottom. Because I am a crossdresser, and I get good vibes when dressing in women's wear, whatever the cuts, colors and fabrics.

[CrossKimmy]

oh yass girl, women have way better clothing choices than men

[Genifer Teal]

men don't really have clothes that are off limits to women. If a woman wanted to wear a male Jock strap, there would be no reason for it. It would kind of be like a man wanting to wear a bra. There would be no reason for it, so I think that could be an apples to apple's comparison beyond that I can't really think of anything else that would be so exclusively male It would be Way out of place on a woman. If she wore it. I mean, maybe underwear with the slot in it. Maybe that's something else. I'm focusing in that area because those are parts She doesn't have so she wouldn't have a need for something that benefits what she doesn't have. It's he same way if one of us wears a bra we have nothing to fill it. (Naturally). What's the point? Why would we wear something we don't need. I think more women's clothes are seen in that way. That there's no reason a man would need to wear them.

[JohnH]

Um, I'm a man who wears a bra with a cup size of DD with no forms or filler. So I wear one for the same reasons as do women.
But I'm careful not to allow my bra straps to show as I'm a man.

John

[Suzie Petersen]

Reine: I asked my SO why men would notice me more when I had bare legs. He said it was because I was wearing a skirt, which in their imagination signaled accessibility.

Whoa, really! That one sure touched a nerve! Do we, collectively, actually believe men in general think like that? That a women in a skirt or a dress are worth looking at because she is accessible? I assume that is supposed to mean that a man can easily get a quick little "roll in the hay" because it is faster to just pull up a skirt than having to negotiate a jeans zipper, and that the woman by wearing a skirt or a dress is signaling that she is available for that!
That is terrible!

I sure don't think like that, and having been part of my fair share of "locker room banter", where supposedly anything goes, I have _never_ heard another male say or suggest that to be the case.

I have to also ask, Reine, did that new knowledge make you not wear skirts or dresses in public again? Or are you ok with that just being a thing about men, so keep a safe distance and don't turn your back to any of them?


And a comment on this one:

Reine: But I've noticed that many CDers dress as if they WANT to be looked at appreciatively by guys and this has always puzzled me, since they profess to be hetero.
I will be the first to admit that this is difficult to get your head around, and I think it is the cause of a lot of misunderstanding about CD'ers motives for their choice of dress.
Convention would definitely suggest that since a woman may dress sexy to attract a male mate, the reason a male CD'er dress as a sexy female would also be to attract a male mate. Of course, there is some percentage of CD'ers where this is in fact the case, those would be gay or bisexual CD'ers. However, there are also a lot of us, me included, who have no interest in attracting a male. So why do we emulate a sexy female then? Good question and I don't have a great answer, other than it is to be seen as a good looking sexy female, but not for the purpose of attracting a male.

I suspect a lot of females dressing up for a girls night out, also dress up to look their best, but not for the purpose of attracting a male suitor! They may be already in a relationship but not really having any desire to cover up or hide themselves. They dress up because they like to look good, which happens to also be attractive to a male on the prowl. Unfortunate side effect, and the cause of many dismissals.
I believe many CD'ers are in the same category. We like to be admired for our looks, but the desire is really for anybody to think we look good, cute, pretty, not specifically men. The fact that it might get a man excited is an unfortunate side effect, which for at least some of us, would rather be avoided.
In fact, many uncommitted CD'ers have the somewhat hopeless dream of being attractive to a female in the crowd.

[JohnH]

Quite simply why I wear dresses is I'm sick and tired of seeing so many people wearing trousers.

John

[DianeT]

Now try to do this in a public toilet wearing pantyhose and a hand bag, no hook to hang the latter, all this without sitting nor touching the filthy seat and bowl. At that moment I guess the sheer variety of colors and cuts in women's fashion will be the least of your concerns... (maybe you'll have teeth marks on the hem, too).

[ReineD]

I have to also ask, Reine, did that new knowledge make you not wear skirts or dresses in public again? Or are you ok with that just being a thing about men, so keep a safe distance and don't turn your back to any of them?

Absolutely! All my life, I have worn conservative (see note) clothes if I wanted to be taken seriously by men, meaning if I wanted him to pay attention to what I was saying more that having his mind wander, or dismiss me as a "lesser-than" female: at work, or if I was negotiating for a car or any other type of financial negotiation. Caveat, this surely is not the case for the generation that came after me, but when I was in my 30s and 40s there weren't as many women in responsible positions at work as there are now and I did notice a difference in how I was treated by men. Not that they were rude or anything, but I wasn't dismissed so easily. So I kept the skirts and dresses for evenings out. Over the years as the style of dressing became ever more casual, I wore fewer and fewer skirts, as do the majority of women that I know. And now that I'm past middle age, I've become invisible no matter what I wear. :)

Note: by conservative clothing, for lack of a better adjective, I mean clothes that don't distract. Not-tight slacks, loose fitting blouses, jackets, neutral colors. I did wear heels (pumps with chunky heels (https://margauxny.com/products/the-heel-midnight?variant=37229075366057&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxu6364OjhgMVBivUAR0vxA0EEAQYCCAB EgL3u_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds), not the sexy type of shoe) under my slacks though. In heels I'm almost 6 feet tall and towering over most men also helped to gain respect, in my opinion.

[DianeT]

Whoa, really! That one sure touched a nerve! Do we, collectively, actually believe men in general think like that? That a women in a skirt or a dress are worth looking at because she is accessible?
Suzie do you mean that when men like what they see, there is nothing sexual in it?

[ReineD]

I suspect a lot of females dressing up for a girls night out, also dress up to look their best, but not for the purpose of attracting a male suitor! They may be already in a relationship but not really having any desire to cover up or hide themselves. They dress up because they like to look good, which happens to also be attractive to a male on the prowl. Unfortunate side effect, and the cause of many dismissals.

Yes, I agree. I've done it myself, many times. Although I didn't want to send those signals at work or at other times when I wanted the guy to see me as his equal and negotiate with me seriously (as mentioned above), honestly I think it's hard wired in us to feel good when a man looks at us. It's as if it's a confirmation of our ultimate purpose in life, which is to attract a male so we can procreate. Basic instincts of survival of the species, right? I say this in VERY general terms. And I've never thought ill of a man who thought me attractive, in fact I've always felt flattered. It's an affirmation of being a woman (and I love being a woman), in much the same way that a man feels flattered when a woman finds HIM attractive.

This is why I still think it weird that hetero CDers want to dress in a way that men find attractive. Surely they don't dress that way to please women? Because I don't know of any woman who is attracted to skirts, legs, boobs, derrieres, etc, unless of course she is lesbian. :)

[docrobbysherry]

men don't really have clothes that are off limits to women. If a woman wanted to wear a male Jock strap, there would be no reason for it. It would kind of be like a man wanting to wear a bra. There would be no reason for it, so I think that could be an apples to apple's comparison beyond that I can't really think of anything else that would be so exclusively male It would be Way out of place on a woman. If she wore it. I mean, maybe underwear with the slot in it. Maybe that's something else. I'm focusing in that area because those are parts She doesn't have so she wouldn't have a need for something that benefits what she doesn't have. It's he same way if one of us wears a bra we have nothing to fill it. (Naturally). What's the point? Why would we wear something we don't need. I think more women's clothes are seen in that way. That there's no reason a man would need to wear them.
There is a word that describes perfectly why some men enjoy wearing women's things that don't have any function for them like panties and bras. And, women don't wear men's things for the same reason.
FETISHES!:o

Rene, that's the same reason I like dressing as a realistic, sexy female. It excites me to see her in my mirror and photos and know she's me!:battingeyelashes:
That I'm occcasionally hit on by men who I'm not interested in can be annoying but sometimes flattering!:heehee:

[OrdinaryAverageGuy]

What I've learned from this thread:

It's stupid of me to wish I could wear a pretty, soft, floral print tank top in public when there's a pink button-down uncomfortable dress shirt in the men's section for me to wear.

All men, when seeing a woman (or a man) in a skirt or dress fantasize about having sex with said person.

If a woman wears something more revealing than what the standard man wears, she's asking for it.

Good to know. Thanks for the education. (<-- dripping with sarcasm.)

[Suzie Petersen]

Reine: Absolutely! All my life, I have worn conservative (see note) clothes if I wanted to be taken seriously by men, meaning if I wanted him to pay attention to what I was saying more that having his mind wander, or dismiss me as a "lesser-than" female
I have worked with many women over the years who were in middle or upper management positions, and I have definitely heard that said before. And to be honest, I have also seen it happen and seen how women sometimes had to work harder for recognition. On the flip side, I have also worked with women who were more sensitive to this than they should have been, getting a lot more respect than they perceived they were, and who were expressing grave concerns about it, which actually worked against them. So a bit of a self-fulfilling prophesy.

I was brought up to believe that everybody are equal regardless of their gender, race and so on, but I am of course not blind to the fact that this is not yet how the world works.
I do agree that things are shifting and that generations younger than us are doing better at "leveling the playing field", for lack of a better term. I am hopeful that this will continue, and have no reason to think it won't.

But my question to you was if that specific moment when your SO at the restaurant told you that men consider a woman to be "accessible" if she wears a dress or a skirt, if that statement from your SO changed how you dressed from then on in similar situations? Have you heard this from any other men?
What I am troubled by here is the thought of a woman being considered accessible because of certain clothing. Is she more attractive if in a dress or skirt, is she more attractive if showing her body more, yes that might be the case to some (probably most) men, but is she more accessible, that's what I struggle with.
My personal opinion is that this is not what goes through most men's minds.

I hope this makes sense, and I would love to hear from some of the other GG's here to understand if there is a common belief that "accessible" is a thing.



Reine: This is why I still think it weird that hetero CDers want to dress in a way that men find attractive. Surely they don't dress that way to please women? Because I don't know of any woman who is attracted to skirts, legs, boobs, derrieres, etc, unless of course she is lesbian.
This is really separate to the reason I chose to comment on this thread, and we have had this conversation many times, and will again, but let me offer a comment.
This is the million dollar question, why would a hetero male dress in a way that is known to attract a man, if not for exactly that reason. Why do we dress as we do? I completely agree that it is weird.

I can not explain it, and I haven't heard a good explanation to this yet. Personally I dress up to look as much like a woman as I can. I do not, as some others do, wear a dress because the fabric is softer, I wear it with all the other things I put on to emulate a woman's figure, her posture, I change my mannerisms, the way I walk, sit, talk, everything. All to best possible show myself to others as if I was in fact a woman. But, I have absolutely no interest in attracting a man. It does not make sense to me, but I feel driven to do this.
I have said many times that it would be a lot easier to understand, both for myself and for others who see me, if I was gay and that attracting a male partner was the goal of this, but it is simply not the case.
Being recognized and paid a compliment by anybody, male or female, young or old, is very desirable, but it doesn't go beyond that.

I do think part of it, for me, has to do with a desiring to be "one of the girls". This may be totally false, but I perceive there to be a very different closeness between women than there is between men. The male side of me is constantly in a competition with other men about .. everything! I dislike that. I feel women have more of a genuine camaraderie and personal friendship that goes beyond what men do. I want to be part of that! I can not call up any of my male friends and say "I feel really sad today, I need to just talk to you about this for a little while", but I feel I could do that with a girl friend, except as a man I can't do it, I would have to first be accepted as one of the girls.

And as for relationships, I do think a lot of hetero CD'ers actually hope that a woman in the crowd will find him attractive when he is dressed as a woman! We know there are women like that, they are rare, but they do exist. Odd's are low, but there is a chance.



Diane: Suzie do you mean that when men like what they see, there is nothing sexual in it?
No that is not the point I am trying to make, Diane. My point is that men, in general, are not looking at two women walking in to the restaurant, one in jeans and one in a skirt, thinking "If I get a chance, I will grab the one in the skirt because her choice of clothes signals to me that she is "accessible". I do not believe that to be true.

[char GG]

CDers: Wear what you like for whatever reason that you like. I don't care. If you like soft clothing, cute things, short skirts, heels, ... go for it. If you like men or women commenting on how you "look", good for you. If you think to yourself, "who can blame us", that's your prerogative.

However, when young teen women were/are socialized, they are put in an uncomfortable position of being gawked at, through no fault of their own. We were forced to wear dresses to school - back then - and no matter how conservative we dressed, we were subjected to cat calls, rude sexual innuendos, and the like. It was extremely uncomfortable. (This is my take on Reine's comment of being "accessible" or vulnerable, basically in the eyes of those calling out to a poor young girl just trying to get to school.) Sometimes, that feeling never leaves us.

Grown men and women in dresses most likely choose to dress that way. They have the maturity to handle being called out, the sexual innuendos, and maybe expect or even want that attention.

[SylphDevine]

I had quite a response earlier this morning to this thread, which I deleted when I realized it might have come off a little too strong. Still I've been totally triggered by some of the semantics of this thread.

My wife is a good barometer/mirror. If I'm having pink fog and can't do anything but think about crossdressing, she tells me to stop what I'm doing and put on what I'm feeling the need to wear. She then engages with me normally. When I get stuff in the mail, she is excited for ME. In discussion she says she doesn't see me as a female, or trying to "seduce men" or "dress for men's attention, she just like the look of obvious delight and pleasure I'm radiating when I try on a new skirt, or show off a new outfit I just bought. She could care less, but indulges me in every flavor when I need it the most.

She doesn't "understand" it, but totally accepts that part of me without question or judgement.

I guess I just got triggered by whet felt like judgement. If you don't understand us, fine. But saying if we dress "a certain" way, we're trying to attract men and why would we do that if we're not gay?

That's really not fair or accurate. It's important for us men in relationships to have our wives/partners at LEAST accept us. I see many posts from some where that is not the case and I also see many posts from women here who don't understand our feelings at all.

Which makes sense, because sometimes I don't understand what I'm feeling. I'll just say this.

When I'm dressed in my male clothing I feel "normal"...when I crossdress I feel "divine" aware of every stitch, every pull, every rustle. Two completely different realities.

I crossdress for MY pleasure and happiness.

It's OK for you to not understand, culturally many GG's have had to deal with "men" around their sexuality and what they wear their whole lives.

[DianeT]

I don't think there is anything shocking or offending in Reine's observations. My wife made very similar ones when I came out to her and explained to her how I dressed, i.e. like women archetypes I had in mind. Like
many wives she questioned my sexual orientation for dressing like an attractive and stereotyped girl (heels, wig, makeup...). These are legitimate observations and questions, and they stem from very rational lines of reasoning. GGs don't say these things to offend anyone. They are simply trying to understand something that we can't understand ourselves, they project themselves in our situation and try to walk in our shoes, imagine our motivations for doing what we do. They do this based on their background as genetic girls raised as such, and I believe that they sometimes get it right, and sometimes wrong... simply because they are not crossdressers. I dress like an attractive woman (to some extent). I do it in my privacy, and don't fantasize on seducing males or anyone. It is just for me, it makes feel good. I don't think I'll ever be able to explain it fully (but nothing wrong in trying), but that doesn't really matter, as long as I know why I do it, in the sense of what I want to achieve, and like SylphDevine, I just do it because it makes me happy. And my wife and most GGs I suppose will never get it because they're are not crossdressers or fetishists. But they can accept it even if they don't comprehend it, and that's well enough as a gift for me. That doesn't prevent my wife and I to keep trying to crack the mystery. I'm always interested in what GGs have to say about it, because it brings me (us) new ways of analyzing this proclivity, and it is a riddle that is interesting to try to solve, with a principal subject always available for scrutiny. We should welcome their observations and questions. It enriches our quest for answers, at least for those interested in pursuing it.

[Suzie Petersen]

Diane,

I agree with you that it is perfectly understandable that GG's and our individual wives in particular, would question our motives when we express a desire to dress and act as an attractive female, or however close we can get to that goal.

But again, that really was not the point of my reaction a few posts back. It was specifically the use of the word "accessible" in connection with certain items of clothing that I found to be troubling, because it, in my mind at least, suggest that it was more a practical consideration of "ease" and also the thought that the person wearing such clothing, dresses and skirts specifically, was presenting themselves as available for an advance.

It triggered memories of hearing the terrible "What was she wearing? Well she was asking for it" which is just horrible nonmatter how you cut it, and I hope we as a society are moving away from that thought as fast as possible. That should never be an acceptable defense.

It is important to remember that this was not Reine suggesting this, this was her SO explaining how this was a typical reaction from men watching her wearing a skirt. That is what is concerning to me. Is this really true? Do men in general believe this?
I have not heard other men say that and I hope that is not the way men generally think.

So that is what I am curious about, do men actually think like this, or was this a little bit of an over interpretation of men just being men and thinking that a woman wearing a dress or a skirt is a little more exciting to look at, than one in slacks or jeans.

You are in a very fortunate situation, Diane, in that you have the opportunity to discuss this with your wife and get immediate and personal feedback. I understand that it is not quite as simple as it sounds, but you do have a good communications channel, and I am a little envious of that to be honest.
The rest of us benefit from your interactions, and I am certainly thankful for that, since it does provide a lot of insight.

I too am always interested in what GG's have to say about this, and the fact that we have several GG's here on the forum is an amazing thing which I hope nobody is taking for granted. They each have their reasons for being here, some of which I am aware, and some I am not, but the fact that they are willing to provide feedback is invaluable to many of us.

I do at times feel that if we are not able to explain ourselves to these women who are willing to listen, how are we ever going to be able to explain our needs and desires to our own SO's, who may be much less willing to listen.

Anyway, main point from me in this debate is about the use of the specific word "accessible", and I hope we can get maybe a little more clarification on that.

Suzie

[ReineD]

But my question to you was if that specific moment when your SO at the restaurant told you that men consider a woman to be "accessible" if she wears a dress or a skirt, if that statement from your SO changed how you dressed from then on in similar situations? Have you heard this from any other men?

Not at all. As I said in my post #43, I have felt flattered when a man looked at me appreciatively. Whether or not his mind wanders to sex is not my concern, provided he behaves appropriately (no rude gestures, no rude comments, etc). The vast majority of men that I have interacted with in my life have behaved well. And no, I have not heard this from other men because I haven't asked them. I doubt my father, brother, brother-in-law, and adult sons would tell me the same thing my SO did, even if they feel the same way he does. And I've not asked my male friends, it has never come up. Maybe telling women what men really think violates the male code. lol



... I want to be part of that! I can not call up any of my male friends and say "I feel really sad today, I need to just talk to you about this for a little while", but I feel I could do that with a girl friend, except as a man I can't do it, I would have to first be accepted as one of the girls.

How unfortunate that you feel you cannot confide in your best friend. I have three adult male sons and I love the fact that they have male friends they can discuss emotional issues with. Their generation is so much better off I think. But I promise you that you CAN talk to women about anything and they will treat you just as they would a girlfriend. You don't have to get dressed up for that. We are very good at reading subtle body language cues and we can tell when someone, male or female, is being sincere about their emotional state of mind. We can tell whether or not a man has ulterior motives. I have had great talks with male friends about all sorts of things, just as if I was talking to a female friend. I have had close male friends since I was a teenager. Not many, but a few.




She doesn't "understand" it, but totally accepts that part of me without question or judgement.

I feel the same way about my SO.



I guess I just got triggered by whet felt like judgement. If you don't understand us, fine. But saying if we dress "a certain" way, we're trying to attract men and why would we do that if we're not gay?

Not all women dress specifically to look sexy, in fact most women I know do not dress like that on a day-to-day basis. My daughters-in-law have a non-complimentary word for women who put themselves out there just to go to the grocery store or out for brunch: heavy makeup, skirts that are too short, heels that are too high, tops that are too low-cut or too tight. We can tell if a GG is trying to get guys to look at her. It's OK for some venues like a night club, but not at work or around town doing day-to-day things. But, so many crossdressers seem to try to emulate the women that we GGs don't respect. Not all CDers, obviously, but a great many.

So if your style doesn't look like you're trying to attract a man, then these comments don't apply to you. :)

[DAVIDA]

All I can say is WOW!......just wow!
One's personal thought does not make it Everyone's thought or meaning.
I have felt this way my entire life. Why? I have no idea.
I always thought to emulate, not dominate a female.
This thread is very disturbing to me on several levels.
No, I have no idea what it is to be a female, or to grow up as one.
I have no idea how they have had to endure the tribulations of being ogled, sexualized, or tormented for the choice of clothing they wear.
I sort of feel .....discusted with myself for even being a male, since it seems most males are in the mindset of looking at women with these thoughts or actions.
I feel guilty for wearing the clothes women wear.
Never have I wanted, needed, or sought any attention of any other person, male or female, while I have the clothes on normally worn by females.
It is just something I have done for ME since I was a very young boy, before I even knew what sex was.
It just felt right, and wrong. Now I know it was wrong.:straightface:
Damn! I feel like throwing what little I have left that is considered women's wear in the trash.
Well, guess what? I will not be doing that.
I am ME, not anyone else, and I will not feel like I have to answer for anyone else's thoughts or actions.
If I did, I would have to feel guilty for being male just because another person is bad, or psychotic, and torments, rapes, or kills another person, female or male.
I think members are taking this to levels that are just a bit higher than needed.
I don't have answers. I truly don't think anyone does.
I guess I am one of the lucky ones who has a wife or SO who doesn't see an aberration when I have a dress on, she just sees me.
Please just don't let this become an; us against them, thread.
We all have had things to deal with through our lives, good and bad.
It surely doesn't mean everyone has the same mindset on any matter.
OK, now I will shut up. My mind is hurting, along with my heart.

[DianeT]

Being a crossdresser isn't a standard hobby and often a complicated thing to live with and accept, for the person and her relatives. This makes us sensitive individuals, and if I may, a bit over sensitive, a bit emotional when dealing with these subjects. I don't think anyone should take these things too personally unless they think it applies to them and may help them know themselves better. It is a sane thing to explore our oddities and contradictions. It allows us to acknowledge them, if not to explain them, and move on. Trying to tell CDers that they tend to rationalize their appetite for female clothes by talking about colors and cuts isn't pointing a finger at them. It is just a theory that advances the discussion about the real motivations and it can be argued against as well. Debate is iterative in nature and we should accept the back and forth, even if it doesn't give a final answer, because with debate the journey generally matters more than the destination. There isn't always an answer at the end of the line, or maybe not for everyone, but everybody will have learned a thing or two in the process. About us, about GGs (a subject of interest for many of us). Also, one may have noticed that GGs tend to be more matter-of-fact in their approach to problems (at least on this site). They don't beat around the bush and this saves time in discussion. Some of the observations my wife made about me were not always easy to deal with, such as the fact that I tend to objectify her when I focus on parts of her body or the clothes she's wearing (for example pantyhose). One of the reasons we keep the lines of communication open is because I try to not react emotionally to these comments. I just (sometimes, "just" is easier said than done) add the fact or observation to the case and see where it takes the discussion. After all I may objectify women. What does it mean exactly? What does it tell about my sexuality? How may it relate to my dressing? Am I objectifying myself when I dress? It is indeed a gift to be able to discuss this with your partner in life. And of course takes some efforts on both sides to keep the discussion going, because they are very emotional and complex subjects, dealing with very intimate things.
I think we should try, as much as we can, to take in comments and observations from GGs and other members as contributing elements for the discussion, at least as long as they aren't ill-intended. And if it pushes a button, hits a nerve, good, it means we have something to dig up and expose there. Analyze and break down the thing until it becomes a mere fact or theory, accept or refuse it (with arguments), add it to the debate, and progress from there. In such a discussion, there will be no guilt, no need for justifications. Just people trying to confront ideas and facts and advance their knowledge of the matter at hand.

[SylphDevine]

Not all women dress specifically to look sexy, in fact most women I know do not dress like that on a day-to-day basis. My daughters-in-law have a non-complimentary word for women who put themselves out there just to go to the grocery store or out for brunch: heavy makeup, skirts that are too short, heels that are too high, tops that are too low-cut or too tight. We can tell if a GG is trying to get guys to look at her. It's OK for some venues like a night club, but not at work or around town doing day-to-day things. But, so many crossdressers seem to try to emulate the women that we GGs don't respect. Not all CDers, obviously, but a great many.

So if your style doesn't look like you're trying to attract a man, then these comments don't apply to you. :)

As I've said elsewhere I work in retail, so I see women up close and personal daily and I notice one thing consistently: however they're dressed at the time their grooming is always meticulous. Nails always done. Makeup always perfect and invisible but always some makeup. Hair PERFECT, whether a casual style or "done up". Earrings. Something feminine in clothing, whether a ruffle, frill or fabric. These are women out shopping, dressed very casually, not "for the club" Women LOVE being feminine. They spend a long time at the makeup counter trying on different shades of color, lipstick, concealer, eye shadow, blush, lip gloss etc. Pretty much all women that come into the store...it's how women ARE.

That's the essence I think that I'm feeling. Being "feminine" in any way in public is reserved for women. Has nothing to do with attracting men. They want to "look good" for themselves.

That's the essence of crossdressing to me. I want those same things, whether in public or in private.

The best conversations I have with women are when I mention how good their nails look, or compliment them on their style. It isn't sexual and they light up in response. They went to the trouble, they're glad it's noticed.

[Bea_]

So that is what I am curious about, do men actually think like this, or was this a little bit of an over interpretation of men just being men and thinking that a woman wearing a dress or a skirt is a little more exciting to look at, than one in slacks or jeans.



Obviously some men think like that. I do not.

I remember as a freshman in high school, circa 1970, sitting in class and a cute but shy girl sitting behind me had a run in her pantihose. The guy beside me made a joke about the runner being a "train track to the sugar shack". I thought he was rude and obnoxious and felt sorry for the girl who was obviously embarrassed and humiliated by the comment. As I've aged that exchange has come back to mind a few times. I absolutely know that my mind never went that direction. And, I had noticed that this particular girl had nice, athletic legs and I did admire them. I did not imagine any kind of "accessibility".

My personal opinion is that the viewpoint expressed about accessibility is based on one man's imagination and is being projected on all men.

The things that cause a man to notice feminine cues is hardwired into a man just as Reine said wanting to be noticed as attractive is hardwired in her brain. To narrow down the complexity of why a man notices a woman in a skirt to "accessibility" is no different than saying she is offering "accessibility" when she wears a skirt.


It triggered memories of hearing the terrible "What was she wearing? Well she was asking for it" which is just horrible nonmatter how you cut it, and I hope we as a society are moving away from that thought as fast as possible.

That was precisely what the "signaling accessibility" interpretation brought to my mind. And, one man's imagination being projected towards all men seems to be less than respectful of those of us who have to go through a fair amount of mental gymnastics to get from admiring a woman's legs to receiving some "accessibility signal".

[Dutchess]

I'm pretty shocked at all the fit throwing here if someone points out certain realities about this activity .. I mean seriously we have men acting like.... well.. you know.. not like women.. all this is is a little pushback .
We aren't your spouses , if someone tells me all they can do is think of crossdressing , I'm going to tell him to get a grip. That is reality right there.
Anyway not everyone who goes shopping is so meticulously made up. That's a fantasy . I'm able to get in the car right now go 2.5 mi down the block and I will be in Beverly Hills, California and I promise you not everybody is made up the way you say. I know. I see them.

Reine is right about dresses being an easier access garment.. when I was in 4th grade at a very expensive episcopal school I had my dress torn completely off by a group of boys while we were all on the playground. Female teachers stood there and watched.. they said they did it so they could see what a naked girl looked like. Right there in public too!!
Well of course I never wore one again and yes there is a big difference between a 11 yr old girls having her dress torn off and a grown man in a micro mini and go go boots. So I'm sure you'll be safe.
To do this you are going to have to develop pretty thick skin, you know, like we have too.
And as always you don't have to know what sex is yet to know what feels good. Some people hide behind that.

So I don't really care if anyone here thinks that way or not . That doesn't matter to me because I won't have time to distinguish between someone who doesn't and somebody that does.. I'm not going to give some random guy a pass just because a few people say they don't think like that ...

All this ridiculous outrage is really of no use.

[SylphDevine]

That's how I took it as well, Bea. I went on a pretty long and strong rant about it and then realized I may have put the thread in jeopardy (props to Stephanie) so I deleted it and reframed my thoughts a little less dogmatically in my previous post. I would like for this particular thread to stay up and have the discussion continue to evolve.

It's a shame some gg's who don't understand what we are/need/feel paint us with a broad brush, but that's the nature of any "village" I guess.

@ Duchess, sorry to trigger you but them's the facts. I live in central vermont and that's how it is everywhere I go. Umgroomed women are the exception, not the rule..Women appear to like being feminine. I also NEVER said "meticulously made up". I said very subtly, but yes, made up. Pretty sure all some of us are asking is to be allowed to feel the same way without being lectured about what femininity "really" is. I don't want to be a woman, but I sure as heck want to be able to feel feminine when I want to.

If you think this is "outrage" I assure you it's just a reaction to the blatant sexism.

[ReineD]

@ Duchess, sorry to trigger you but them's the facts. I live in central vermont and that's how it is everywhere I go. Umgroomed women are the exception, not the rule..Women appear to like being feminine. I also NEVER said "meticulously made up". I said very subtly, but yes, made up.

Wow. It sounds as if you live in paradise! I live in the midwest. The vast majority of women I see when I'm out and about don't wear makeup. Not even my daughters-in-law! (One lives in central Jacksonville, one in central Pittsburgh, and one in San Diego. These are all vibrant urban centers. And gosh, you should see MY fingernails. :eek: You would be horrified! Seriously. I'm very active with my hands: minor house repairs, drawing, painting, crafts, cooking, etc, and I have always had brittle fingernails - never been able to grow them. So I just keep them very short and clean. No polish. Although there was a time in my life when I felt compelled to wear acrylics (in my 20s), it only lasted a few years before I gave up. :Peace:

[SylphDevine]

Cool beans. Since my previous post I've been out and about and am paying very close attention to the way women are presenting themselves. I'm correct. It's not an assumption. Saw a woman pushing her bay in a carriage with her husband. Husband was in a wrinkly tshirt shorts and sneakers. The mom had this pretty white flowered dress with ruffled sleeves (dress was below the knee. Hair nicely tied with a lace ribbon. She had on makeup and earrings, although the makeup was very subtle. Could see her toenails peeking out of her sandals and they were a bright cherry red, so I assume her nails were the same. Just a casual outing with the little one walking down Main Street.

Very common around here. Maybe Vermont is different. If you go to our main city (burlington) it's like a fashion show all day. The casual outfits are delightful.

I was just out in Vancouver, Victoria and the peninsula of western Washington for a couple weeks. Same thing. In Vancouver it's glam city for women.

Some of us guys want just a little slice of that. I don't want to date men. I want to feel feminine once in a while. Since I'm not female (nor do I have any desire to be a woman) it's all about the clothes.

[Maid_Marion]

I find it pretty amazing that I can use the bathroom like a girl.
I had a stroke in my mid 30s and had to learn how to walk again!
From a sitting position I can shift my weight a little and hover over my chair without using my hands.
I can hold my hands over the keyboard while doing this.
I can lift myself from a squattting position and easily move my body around.
Hovering over the seat while holding my little black crossbody bag is something I can do!
It may help that I do a lot of golf practice and gardening.
I now have an obscenely thin waist. About the same as when I weighed 85 lbs in High School.
Put on 20lbs since then. Doctor says I could eat more.

My nails look very nice without polish as I take good care of them.
When I was a kid I used to have all sorts of little accidents that would hurt my hands.
I've been working on avoiding them so my hands look good.
I do wear rubber gardening gloves to protect them.
I found they will let me grow the nails a little past my fingertips but if the nails get too long the gloves will crack them so I don't do that anymore.

I've been using a Braun IPL all winter so almost all the hair on my legs is gone. :)

When I go out I'll take an extra close shave before I go out. I may put on a tiny bit of lipstick if I don't forget.
As well as wear my new Timex floral ladies watch. I usually wear "feminine" colors like pink.
I have shoes with floral accents though I've been going out recently with heeled booties. Yes, I go grocery shopping in heeled booties.

Marion

[Dutchess]

@ Duchess, sorry to trigger you but them's the facts. I live in central vermont and that's how it is everywhere I go. Umgroomed women are the exception, not the rule..Women appear to like being feminine. I also NEVER said "meticulously made up". I said very subtly, but yes, made up. Pretty sure all some of us are asking is to be allowed to feel the same way without being lectured about what femininity "really" is. I don't want to be a woman, but I sure as heck want to be able to feel feminine when I want to.

If you think this is "outrage" I assure you it's just a reaction to the blatant sexism.

Sorry, but I don't get triggered like that ... just saying .. you are, however, certainly barking up the wrong tree talking to me like that . And no those are not the facts.....your facts ,maybe .. but not the facts .

[SylphDevine]

Wow. It sounds as if you live in paradise! I live in the midwest. The vast majority of women I see when I'm out and about don't wear makeup. Not even my daughters-in-law! (One lives in central Jacksonville, one in central Pittsburgh, and one in San Diego. These are all vibrant urban centers. And gosh, you should see MY fingernails. :eek: You would be horrified! Seriously. I'm very active with my hands: minor house repairs, drawing, painting, crafts, cooking, etc, and I have always had brittle fingernails - never been able to grow them. So I just keep them very short and clean. No polish. Although there was a time in my life when I felt compelled to wear acrylics (in my 20s), it only lasted a few years before I gave up. :Peace:

LOL You should see my nails. I make lots of stuff out of wood and metal and my hands are quite calloused and rough.

Working on a shell for my pickup truck at the moment to try to convert it to a camper.

[DAVIDA]

Time for this thread to end.