We’ve had the “Big Talk” – At long last! – Disaster!

[Dragster]

Help! Acceptance advice urgently requested please. Especially from GGs.

Firstly, I apologise for the length of this post, but I think you need the whole story before you can draw any conclusions.

I’ve not been around for a few weeks. Did anyone miss me? No! Well, it’s what I expected. I didn’t miss you either because I went to Jamaica with my wife and daughter to attend a friend’s wedding. Good excuse for a holiday eh! But just before we left, I had the first “Big Chat” with my wife. At last! But it didn’t go too well. For those of you who don’t know my history, I’ll summarise now. I know some of you can skip the next paragraph.

I started dressing 50 years or so ago, as a pre-teen, and because I loved the feel of the lingerie and the sexual pleasure it gave me. I married almost 37 years ago, and regrettably, did not have the guts to tell my wife then. I thought that sex “on-tap” would remove the need. WRONG, as many of us now know. I did pluck up the courage to tell her almost 20 years ago, but it didn’t turn out like I’d hoped. She said she was disgusted by the whole thing, wanted, and thought, she married, a real man. She felt I had cheated, we cried a bit, decided that we’d stay together, but she ultimately said she “didn’t want to know”, so I spent the last 20 odd years not telling her what I was thinking about or doing, After coming across this site early last year, and all you great and sympathetic people, I realised that I had to make a real effort to be honest with my wife and hope we could at least talk about the subject and come to some agreement, whatever it was. I also followed advice from here to use Helen Boyd’s book “My Husband Betty” as a prompt for discussion, to “break the ice”, and to bring most of the issues out into the open. I suggested we read it together, but she did not agree, so I read it myself first, and learned a lot about the problems facing an SO who finds out about their partner’s CDing for the first time. I gave it to her in April 2005, and she promised to read the first 4 chapters before we sat down to discuss the contents. I’d marked many of the points I wished to make, and those that I thought she may also to want to know about, and asked her to do the same. For 4 months, she read nothing, but I suppose she was pretty busy looking after me, on crutches after a foot operation.

In August, we had a bit of an arguament, principally about the time I spend on the ‘net, looking at “porn” sites (her description). She classifies “Crossdressers.com” (where I spend the bulk of my time after she goes to bed) as “porn” and in the same category as some of the other sexy clothing and lingerie, love toys, and erotic story sites I frequent, and I do like a little bondage too; who doesn’t? I promised to kill the lot for a week while she read chapters 1-4, and then we’d discuss it and come to an agreement on that subject, and our almost non-existent sex-life. Two weeks later, she’d not even started, so I wrote a letter to her, suggesting that we should attempt to get our sex-life back on track first, and talk about the CDing when she’d read the book. She said that wasn’t possible, because the two issues were tied together, and that she felt she “didn’t want to make love to a man who wanted to wear women’s clothes”. That was a BOMBSHELL, and it shocked me, as I felt I couldn’t stop wanting to CD (has anyone?). I told her I couldn’t un-want something like that, and if we didn’t sort it, we were committing ourselves to a sex-less marriage, or divorce, and was that what she wanted? Fortunately, it wasn’t, and I confirmed it wasn’t what I wanted either, and that I still loved her and wanted to find a way we could both be happy for ever. In the next week, she’d made a start, and read about 30 odd pages.

After reflection, I realised that I didn’t want to ask her to make love with me if I knew she didn’t really want to. To me it would seem like I’d be using her like a prostitute, so I stopped asking. Since then, we’ve had sex just once in the last 7 months. She initiated it around Christmas time, and when I asked what had changed her mind about me, she said “I don’t know”. So I once again asked her to read the book so we can get down to sorting out our problems, and she again agreed that reading the book was a good prompt for a discussion, and that she really would read it, but what she’d read so far had not changed her mind. After several further prompts, she started to re-read it again, claiming to have forgotten what she’d read so far, and up to March this year, had only reached page 25 (I checked her book-mark position). Then I offered to take her through the pages I thought were relevant together, since we were making no progress otherwise.

Just before our holiday we put some time aside and went to bed early with the book. I started by telling her that no matter what the outcome was, she was still the one I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. I appreciated there was a big gap between what she ideally wanted - complete stoppage of all CD activities – (she accepted that was unlikely), and what I ideally wanted – her to accept me fully, and join in – (also unlikely), but if we could talk, with a real commitment to making compromises to find a solution that meets most of our joint requirements, we could do it. I also told her I had two other objectives, more important than the one above.

One, to build a better and closer relationship with her, based on complete honesty, not having to hide something of me from her, stemming from a more complete understanding of one another’s points of view on this subject.

Two, to rebuild our sexual relationship. We’d never found it easy to talk freely about what we wanted sexually, but if we could do that about CDing, we should also be able to do it about our sex life. The prize was too big to give up without giving it our best shot. She had said to me, only a short time earlier, that she thought our sex life was crap, and she would like it at least twice a week, which was a surprise to me because I thought she’d lost interest in sex. We both wanted the same thing! I also told her that I had been using DIY to make up for the gap between the amount of sex I wanted, and the amount she appeared to want, and had re-discovered the huge additional excitement and satisfaction I get when doing that, wearing sexy women’s clothes.

We then got the book out, and I asked her what she wanted to know, and promised to give her honest and truthful answers. Well, guess what her response was? “What I’ve read so far hasn’t changed my mind, and what you might say will never change my mind either. I think that men wearing women’s clothes is disgusting and it makes me sick just to think about you wanting to do that”. Not the best start! She hadn’t marked any areas for discussion either, and had no questions to ask. This was beginning to look like a one-sided dialogue, but fortunately, I’d listed a number of points on paper to try and lead us logically through a discussion. Starting with , “Are you worried I may be gay?” “No”. “Good, I’m not. Are you concerned I may want to change sex?” “No”. “Good, I don’t. Have you any other concerns?” “I think it’s disgusting”. “Do you have any idea why I feel that I want to CD? I’d like to tell you, but I don’t know why myself. I just know that it gives me a hell of a lot of pleasure and excitement.” I turned to page 46, where Kyrie lists all the individual elements she enjoys about wearing female clothes, and I’d ticked most of them for her to read. As she read them, she said nothing until she came to bras and breastforms and said “Having breasts doesn’t alter your centre of gravity. That’s crap!” I said “That’s not really relevant, look at the rest I’ve ticked. I feel excited by all the ones I’ve marked, Do you want to ask me about them?” She didn’t. Then she noticed the picture below, of Kyrie in all her feminine glory. “Is that a woman or a man?” “That’s a man, the one who’s listed all these features of CDing that give him pleasure” “Do you want to look like that?” “I’m too old to be that good, but if I was 30 years younger, yes.” “Oh that makes me feel sick. I thought I married a man, and that’s what I want, a 100% manly man. You said last time (ie. 20 years ago!) that it was only the feel of the clothes that you wanted. You’ve been spending so much time on ‘that site’ that you’ve become obsessed about the subject. (True, I may spend an hour or two here most nights before I go to bed, and I do find it addictive) If you stopped obsessing about it you wouldn’t feel the need so much ” Then out came all my other “failings”; things I haven’t done since I retired. So the discussion fell apart before we got to the point of “Where do we go from here?”, apart from a confirmation that she didn’t want to see any evidence of my CDing in the home.

I didn’t see the point of bringing the subject up while we were enjoying a holiday (we were sharing a room with our daughter too), but now we’re back, we still have to complete the dialogue. Have any of you GGs felt like this the first time you found out? And if you changed your mind eventually, what was it that brought about the change? I suspect that after 20 years, my wife’s views must be pretty entrenched, and I have little opportunity to get her to shift her ground, even a little, but I’m clutching at straws here. I’d really like to get to the point where she does not see it as such a negative effect on our relationship, even if she never wants to see me fully dressed and made up. I’d like it to be a subject which is not taboo, one we can talk about without it causing negative feelings. If she comes home unexpectedly early when I’m dressed, I’ll need time to change without there being any animosity between us. And that is not where we are today.

Ultimately, I want to meet other CDers, singly or at support group meetings, just to share experiences (I really am straight), and I really want to experience the thrill of walking out in public as a woman, at least once in my life. I’d really love to share the whole experience with her (at home as well) but I suspect it will remain just a dream, and the best I could hope for is to continue to dress in the closet when she’s out. So if you know of an approach which may work, I’d love to hear from you. Please don’t suggest that I leave her, she means far more to me than that. I’d rather keep on CDing in the closet than live without her. But if I could find a way to move the goalposts just a little, we can maybe enjoy a future without any secrets between us, and without her being upset by something I really enjoy, but that gives her so much grief at present.

Here’s hoping,
Tony

[melissacd]

There are a couple of things that changed the situation for me for what it is worth.

The first time my wife found out about 9 years ago she freaked out, threw out all my stuff, told me to stop and never discussed it further until the subject came to a head a few months back.

What changed between then and now was that I gained a lot more knowledge and acceptance about this important part of myself. The acceptance was the important part. When she discovered the first time I was so full of guilt and shame that it was easy for her to beat me down and for me to retreat into myself.

This time, when the issue came up again, I assured my wife of two things, that I loved her deeply and that I cannot "not" be a cross dresser. I told her that I wanted to keep our marriage going and that I wanted a deeper more fulfilling relationship, however, if she could not at least acknowledge that I am a cross dresser our relationship would wither away and die. We have had lots of talks about it since then (I have found that talk is better than books - although the books are good resources to have available if needed) and I have answered every question honestly and helped her realize this is not a sickness, this is not something that I can be cured of, it is a part of who I am and it does not make me any less a man. In fact, I told her it makes me more of a person, more authentic.

At first it was difficult for her to accept and understand, however, I made it very clear that while I love her I cannot not be who I am even if that means that we have to part ways. She has accepted that and has tried very hard to understand, to the point where the other night she came with me to a store and helped me pick out a waist cincher and a pair of pantyhose. This was a very big step for her and she could see that I was very comfortable with the whole thing. My comfort and ease has helped her to feel more and more that this is okay.

By being open and honest with her about the cross dressing and the role it plays in who I am and by telling her I love her so much that I am willing to leave her rather than continue with a less than open, honest relationship has been the best thing I have done. I feared crossing this bridge and I am glad that I faced my fear. My wife and I have become closer, our sex has improved 100%, she talks of our future together in new and positive ways and she is okay with the cross dressing, buying things, my going to meetings and meeting others. She is not yet to the point where she will see me dressed (although she has said eventually she wants to) and she is not to the point where she will go to a meeting or meet others, however, a year ago I never would have believed that she would be where she is today. I am very proud of her. I now know things will continue to progress in a positive direction as long as we are open and lving about the whole thing. There will always be setbacks, but so long as I listen to her concerns and don't push her to hard (baby steps) I am sure that we will continue to progress in a positive way.

The important point is that I told my wife that each of us has a choice and I choose to be who I am. I can no longer be anything else but me. She has a choice to accept or not. She now chooses to accept because she loves me.
I wish you the best in your journey.

Huggs
Melissa

[TVStevie]

Tony,
sadly, it looks like you're between a rock and a hard place - your wife seems completely unwilling to even negotiate or converse openly with you regarding your CDing, so as you will not consider seperating from her, you're kinda stuck with things continuing as they are. I do have a question though: Are you happy to accept being in a relationship, no matter how long established, with someone who doesn't accept you for who you are? That's the sort of thing that would completely eat me up from the inside and I'd rather be healthy, happy and single than unhappy and unhealthy in a relationship. Of course, that's just my point of view, but that's the biggest issue that I could see when I read the whole of your post. It's hard enough to accept oneself without knowing that CDing is considered disgusting by the one person who really matters.

Best of luck with it, anyway. I hope that, one way or another, you end up happy. :thumbsup:

[Emily Ann Brown]

I think I'm married to your wife (giggle giggle). Since she found out in January her only expressions of my dressing are "it's sick" and I'm a pervert and "you will stop". No room for discussion at all or any compromise on her part. And I do love her and want to salvage the marriage. I wish I had an answer hun, but as for me I figured I will never ever change her, so if I want to remain her husband then I have to change. So for now I have stopped and she is sorta happy. I guess time will tell if this is a workable solution.

I feel for you dear....I understand exactly what you are going through.

Emily Ann

[purple_spider GG]

Hi
It sounds like your wife has really and truely made her mind up. It is hard for a partner of a transgender person to understand what is going on and to let go of their preconcieved notions of who their husband is. It sounds like you gave her time to deal with things and even helpful material. I just don't know what else to say that you could do better.

The only thing I can suggest is to ask her why she thinks it's disgusting? If she says "because it is!" then ask her again, but why is it? Encourage her to think about it a bit more and then you may get to the bottom of her real feelings.

I could also suggest you ask her if she wants to meet other wives and partners of transgender people? Tell her that there are a lot of women in her position and that places like CD.com and others have support areas for wives and partners. Maybe she would be interested in meeting another wife who is accepting? You can only but ask.

Keep talking to her; keep the lines of communication going; and keep giving her time.

Hugs
debs
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

[Wendy me]

this is all too much in common with us girls we want our so's to know this side of who we are... and we try all them steps that we know twards our so's at beast understanding this part of who we are and the dream or prize that we just might be accpted by them...

i know just what you are saying here and just how hard it hurts you inside as you know i too am on this path as many of us are .. and the easy fix is divorce and you as well as me just can't cross that bridge ...as we do love our wives ...so it's not a easy path trying all our lives to be open and honest . and a need for accptence ... only to find that we want more than our so's will ever go along with ...


so were dose that leave you and so many outhers in your shoes ?? we can't just quit this we all know that so were do you go?? to just keep hidding it ?? girlfreind if i could only give the answer ....

huge wendy hugs ....

[Lauren Richards]

Tony,
I know you are looking for answers mostly from ggs, but as a fellow crossdresser, I had an experience similar to yours with my former wife. It had nothing to do with crossdressing; just the desire to bring a new focus to our lives as we approached middle age. I had read a book which I found expressed many of my feelings and asked her to read it so we could have a common reference and language between us. Her basic response was to ignore my request, and to tell me that if I had problems, it was up to me to fix them.

I am not married to her any longer. The decision was difficult, yet I knew that I had to get out of the marriage or lie to myself every day for the rest of my life. It was not easy, so I am not recommending it to anyone. It has been seven years, my kids are fine (now), and I have not spoken with her in the last six months. For me it was the right decision, but not one arrived at easily. Ultimately, how you live is up to you.

Right now you seem focused on forcing someone who does not want to understand you to change a lifetime of preconception and prejudice. It may not be possible for her to change. That is reality. She may, however, with time and you working first on understanding of her point of view, be able to move gradually to a compromise situation. Every contract, including marriage, needs to be able to be renegotiated when circumstances change.

No answers here. Just best wishes in your journey.

Lauren

[Shiny]

This, unfortunately is why many CD's stay single!

[maggie]

Dear Tony,

I can truly feel for you, having received the same reaction from my wife when I first told her. Although she knows about my CDing and agrees to my going to TG support group meetings once a month, she does not want to see me en femme or any of my femme stuff. She came to two shows in which I performed female roles (I am an amateur actor), but refused to come to the most recent show in which I did so. While I think she is incapable of ever fully accepting my CDing, I am hopeful that her revulsion is gradually becoming less extreme, so that I can eventually be more open about it.

Over the past few years I have been seeing a very wise clinical social worker about my situation, and I would like to share something she told me.

If you are not willing even to consider leaving your spouse, then you have no bargaining position in the relationship: you have no ability to "draw the line" as to the indignities, abuse, or self-denial that you will accept; ultimately you relinquish your right to self-fulfillment and self-respect.

Where you draw the line is an individual matter. But we each must draw it somewhere.

Maggie

[Stephanie Kay]

Dear Dragster,

I told my wife about my crossdressing after 26 years of marriage. She cried for about two weeks and asked all the typical questions and I answered them honestly. The biggest problem was that I had kept the big secret from her. And I did that because I was immature and afraid. It had nothing to do with her! She loved me fully and wanted to be trusted and that's what marriage is all about!! I did not trust her because I was steeped in shame and guilt and THAT WAS MY PROBLEM. Next, she did believe she was marrying a man and in her entire life she never new a man to enjoy wearing women's clothes and wanting to have breasts. She believed therefore that she did not marry a man. She did not want to have sex with anyone dressed like a woman. She is genuinely straight and does not want to make love with a woman or anyone who wants to be a woman or wants to look like a woman in bed. FAIR ENOUGH? I don't see anything wrong with her desires either! How about you? I think she is still grieving about not being trusted by her husband and not having a husband like she believed she had married. Her whole life changed and IT WAS NOT HER FAULT!!!! That grief may go on a long time and trust is a very hard thing to rebuild!! DO YOU GET IT?????

Sounds like your wife also spends many lonely hours in bed at night while you play (with yourself?) at the computer. Were you ever honest with her about your porn addiction? How did you explain that? Have you had an honest discussion with her about that? Is that different from your desire to CD? I don't do porn because I know it is demeaning to women, especially my wife and daughters and even to myself as Stephanie!

My wife and I keep no secrets from each other. She knows about, accepts, and supports my crossdressing even encouraging me to go out and about and will even leave home for a few hours if I feel the need to CD. I accept myself, my transgenderedness and my straightness and love being Stephanie as well as Steve. I have accepted the fact that she is only sexually attracted to me as Steve and not ever as Stephanie. She has every right to want what she wants sexually and I love her for that so I don't ever dress in her presence (BTW, she did try it the other way and used to go out with me as Stephanie but found it unappealing and uninteresting, nothing unusual about that, eh?). We have a wonderful sexual life as husband and wife. I am a man and I love pleasing her as a man, especially when I know I could never please her as a woman! And THAT"S ALL OK WITH ME!!

So, Dragster, it kinda sounds to me like you think you are the victim. Maybe so, but can you see maybe that she got blind-sided by you too! Loosen up a little, love yourself by getting yourself some counselling, and really love your wife (be sensitive about how SHE feels) and listen, really listen to what she says and wants. Then decide if and how you want your relationship to continue. It is really up to YOU! Take care, my friend.

[Sandra]

Hi Tony,

I can see your need to dress being married to a CDer, and I can see your wifes point of view, she does seem that nothing is going to make her change her mind, which is a shame because she could get a lot of you dressing. The only thing I can suggest is that you keep on talking to her, even if you think she is not listening to you.

I know you girls must get fed up with us GGs saying talk talk talk, but believe me it does help.

Good Luck.

[Bev06 GG]

Sounds like your wife also spends many lonely hours in bed at night while you play (with yourself?) at the computer. Were you ever honest with her about your porn addiction? How did you explain that? Have you had an honest discussion with her about that? Is that different from your desire to CD? I don't do porn because I know it is demeaning to women, especially my wife and daughters and even to myself as Stephanie!

.
Actually Stephanie and Tony, we hate it with a passion. Dont get me wrong Tony, your no different to alot of males my partner included, but to most GGs its like theyre not fullfilling you enough and you have to go elsewhere. And unfortunately for a man who likes to dress up it can often be read as he's a pervert, which is very unfair because regular guys just get branded highly sexed. There have been times tho when I could have cheerfully have put my foot thru the ruddy computer or written some really nasty email to some of these so called sex goddesses. However, I think by doing that youve given your wife a wrong impression about what dressing is all about. If she's uncomfortable with it your maybe never going to change that. We all have our little prejudices whether we realise it or not. Social class, upbringing, and life experiences all work together to shape the person that we are, and what one person can readily accept another will struggle with.
I thought what Maggie said about if your not prepared to leave your wife then youve got no bargaining power, was very true, but also very sad.
You have in your favour Tony, tried to do everything in your power to be open and honest with your wife about how you feel, and like Sandra said, youve just got to keep talking. Dont go OTT tho because she will get sick of it. Just tell her from time to time how important it is to you and how sad and frustrated you are at not being able to do it. Hopefully this will eventually appeal to her better nature and she just might start to try and understand your needs.
Take care
BEVxxxx

[Rikkicn]

Thank you for your post. It was interesting to me how much we are alike.

I had two problems in my marriage that caused me to divorce my wife. The first was that she didn't like talking about her emotions, her life, what was in her heart etc. She never shared much of herself with me.

The second problem for me was that our sex life was terrible. I wanted sex often and wanted to experiment more. She liked sex very infrequently and only one way. Most of her body was off limits to me. I often felt rejected and sad and also lonely. I initiated what she started to call "the sex talk" but nothing every changed as a result. She would always say she would try harder. She did too, but only for a day or two. I suggested counseling but she wasn't interested. Life would continue with me hoping it would get better. I was busy building a career and that helped me cope.

During our 27 year marriage my desire to cd came and went. When it came I would buy things on business trips and play in my hotel room. That got lonely too and I ached to be with a woman when I was dressed so I turned to sex workers. I had some wonderful experiences that I'll never regret. I think of these wonderful women from time to time and thank them for the kindness they showed me.

When I came out to my wife in the 25th year of our marrige she was sad for me and that I had to keep this secret. She understood that I didn't tell her because becasue I loved her so much and was afraid she would leave me.. She became a involved enough to help me shop and even went to a cd event. It was lots of fun but the other problems still persisted.

I even gave her a book to read and she didn't start it for several months and then at my request. One night she was reading and put the book down and turned to me and said "there is cder in here that wants to have sex with his wife while dressed. Isn't that disgusting?" At moment my heart felt such sadness becasue I would never get to experience with my wife, the woman I loved, something I had wanted for years and years and that she found my desires disgusting. I would have to live my life unfulfilled.

A few years later I spent 10 days in self retreat and spent long hours thinking about our marriage. I came to the conclusion that I wanted and deserved to feel the love in my life. I wanted a relationship that was open honest and sexually active and hot.

When I returned home we had a talk and she said she would "try" harder and things were better for a week or so and soon the trying stopped. It seemed to me if she wasn't interested in trying, and that's a minimum I expected, then there was nothing there. I was so tired of not feeling loved. I was tired of feeling rejected in bed if I asked for something like oral sex or even to touch her in ways that most men touch their wives. I was tired of feeling lonely and alone. I was tired of pretending. I was tired of not sharing our lives and hearts. I was so damned tired!

I came to the conclusion that she just didn't love me enough and that I had a right to happiness and fulfillment. So I told her I wanted a divorcee. It was a difficult day when I told her but we both got through it.

I moved out two days latter. I went to San Francisco, found a tiny furnished apartment and moved it. San francisco was the home of my spiritual teacher and I wanted to be near him during the process.

I decorated my little room with al kinds of femme things. I meet women on line that like cross dressers. I had lots of wonderful and hot sex, dressed of course.

In a few months I met a woman online and we went out for a date. I had told her all about me by Email and she was very excited to meet me. We had coffee the first time we meet and dinner the second time. She thought it was really wonderful that when I talked about cross dressing over dinner that I didn't lower my voice and whisper. She loved my confidence around that. After dinner we went back to her apartment. After an hour or two of necking she asked me, I repeat she asked me if I would go to bed with her. I said yes and didn't go back home for two weeks!

That was over four years ago. We're getting married this fall. We'll both be wearing dresses and we''ll have over 100 people there. My spirtual adviser will do the ceremony and will say, at the end, "the bride may know kiss the bride."

Now that's a happy ending or perhaps a glorious beginning.

PS. My ex and I are are really good friends now and we talk every 3-4 months to catch up with each other. She now understand why I left and thinks it was good for both of us. Her world is opening up now too and she's excited about her future.

All's well that ends well.

Hoping you make good decisions for yourself

Peace, love and happiness
Rikki

[Rikkicn]

Sounds like your wife also spends many lonely hours in bed at night while you play (with yourself?) at the computer. Were you ever honest with her about your porn addiction? How did you explain that? Have you had an honest discussion with her about that? Is that different from your desire to CD? I don't do porn because I know it is demeaning to women, especially my wife and daughters and even to myself as Stephanie!


I'm not sure why someone that spends time playing (DIY) on the internet looking at porn is labeled addicted. Some people like to have sex more often that others and if your partner isn't like that then what do you do?
Do you put your needs and desires a side? Do you try and ignore them? Do you take cold showers? Sex workers are not Ok, I assume. What's left?

Why is it so terrible to "play" while looking at erotic images. That doesn't always mean that your partner isn't enough and that your not satisfied with her. As Cder's many of our life long erotic pleasure are had alone.

I've met many women that are erotic artist and writers and performers that like porn and don't feel demeaned it at all. This is not to say that it isn't demeaning to some and maybe most but I think it's not in our interests to assume everyone is alike.
I've also met many women that love their jobs as sex workers. They love being able to make differencs in men's lives. Men like me.

Thanks for listening
Rikki

[paulaN]

dragster! I wish you the very best.It sounds like you are in for some very tough choices to make. I seems to me you have done a good job of trying to talk to your wife, to no avail. She will not listen and does not want to hear anything you have to say. that is so sad. I do not have the answers. I don't think anyone has the answers. you have to go with your heart. I know if my wife shut me off in the sex dept. That would be the last straw (for me). You have some good segestions to your post. try a few of them. like I said, I wish you the best of luck.

[Toyah]

I am sorry for your situation hun it must be very distressing for you and your wife.
There a few things I would like to comment on if you dont mind maybe they will help yourself or others.
The first thing is crossdressing is very rarely accepted therefore it is probably best not to go for the balls out all in one go approach and to introduce the subject gradually, in some ways you did, then you went for the one night big meting thing not good I think.
The second thing is a book is really not the best way to aproach the subject it is not you and although some bits may be relevent others may give the wrong impresion.
One of the ways I used to find to help my wife was the Yahoo chats that were common a few months ago unfortunatly these have died out for some reason although some nights were so funny it hurt.
I wish you the best but my final advise is dont hide crossdressing and talk about it before you get married otherwise you are compounding the response.
Good luck hun and hope all goes well

[livy_m_b]

after lots of thought, and confrontations and settlements, I've concluded that "what you get is what you get". It's not about justice or love or fairness, it's really just about human beings and WYGIWYG. I've tried to articulate a principle: "Do what is right before you feel like it", but it's too hard to explain to be useful. Alternatively, I've imagined a mantra "Do what is objectively right", but that is no better. Sometimes, and maybe this is nearest to your situation, I think "Hunker down and don't rock the boat", or even "Let's face the music, and dance." Good luck to both of you. Glib I know, but what's glibness for if not moments like these?

love

Olivia

[stephanie100]

It is hard to know what to say in these situations I guess im lucky my SO accepts and even supports me. Though things wernt always that way talk and talk again is the only advice i can give. good luck in whatever you decide to do.
Steph:hugs:

[barbaracd]

Tony , I've had the same talk with my wife[ SOUNDS LIKE WE'RE MARRIED TO THE SAME PERSON] .She finds it disgusting. Now I really only want to chat with other CD'S like myself who is straight. I've met some extemely nice people on this site , and I'm content just sharing with others like myself. I've been married a long time and I'm finally accepting who I am and I like Barbara even if my wife doesn't. I hurt no one although it would be great if she liked Barbara too.

[susiej]

Dragster,

Any chance you can get your wife to sign up to couples therapy? Preferably, a professional who understands gender issues? You may have a better chance getting from a real-live professional human being what you seem to be seeking, but failing to get, from the "book". Seems to me that the two of you need a moderating influence.

My intuition also tells me that it's "five minutes to midnight" for your relationship. Prepare yourself for the worse that can happen, because IMHO you'll have the best chance of avoiding it if you are ready and able to cope.

And, BTW, yes, we did miss you! I get hot just looking at the, um, shape of your, er, avatar :).

Hugs,
Susie

[HaleyPink2000]

Dragster:

My story is all over this forum. If you have followed the continuing story of Haley. LOLOL:) Sorry some comic relief there.

I was much helptttt by going to the Triess Group meetings and actually meeting other peers. This might help you also.

My Wife actually sugested that I see a Doctor or seek out a Support Group. So I did just that. Since then She's figured out that the Support group Idea " being Her idea" was just a way for me to vent to my Peers. Also to dress once a month in a town two hours away from where we live.

You might look into that. Be open with Her and tell Her what you are going to do. Maybe telling Her your going to seek help and support via a Support group would bring Her around.

I'm like you, My Wife comes first. Before myself.

The best to you what ever happens.

[DonnaT]

Hi Tony,

Sorry things with your wife's understanding/acceptance haven't improved.

From your story, it sounds as though your wife also has no desire to leave you, just like you have no desire to leave her.

I know you've read about me and my wife, so I won't go into all that. Note however, that when she does get really down on my CDing, she'll bring up the subject of divorce. Again just last week in fact. She was trying to force me back into the closet.

This time I just flat told her that although I love her and have no desire for divorce, one place I wan't going was back in the closet. I reiterated that there is no cure for my need to crossdress, and left the ball in her court to decide. The next day things were cool again.

I'm glad that in your case, neither of you are trying to play the divorce card.

Now you know that no matter what your wife learns, it appears she's not going to change her attitude anytime soon, if ever. So, what do you want to be able to do now?

What ever it is, I suggest just doing it, at least for a trial run.

[kristine239]

All of your stories and comments come at a very good time. Your insight and responses are great.

My business partner and I are in the process of discussing this subject with several noted therepists on this subject for Transgender 2007 as it came up in an after conference survey at TG 2006. I have asked several professionals to look at this site to get a better idea of what your needs are. I am also considering, with your approval, of copying many of your posts to circulate to some professionals such as Dr. Sandra Cole, Dr. Dottie Berry and Dr. Sandra Samons, to develop this program for next year.

Our object is to present workshops to help us all. I live in a hostle household, just the same as many of you do.

If you would like to share with me or maybe even be on a panel for this workshop, you can always e-mail me at skristinej@aol.com. Everything we discuss will be confidential if you prefer.

Love Kristine

[kittypw GG]

[Just before our holiday we put some time aside and went to bed early with the book. I started by telling her that no matter what the outcome was, she was still the one I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. I appreciated there was a big gap between what she ideally wanted - complete stoppage of all CD activities – (she accepted that was unlikely), and what I ideally wanted – her to accept me fully, and join in – (also unlikely), but if we could talk, with a real commitment to making compromises to find a solution that meets most of our joint requirements, we could do it. I also told her I had two other objectives, more important than the one above.

One, to build a better and closer relationship with her, based on complete honesty, not having to hide something of me from her, stemming from a more complete understanding of one another’s points of view on this subject.

Two, to rebuild our sexual relationship. We’d never found it easy to talk freely about what we wanted sexually, but if we could do that about CDing, we should also be able to do it about our sex life. The prize was too big to give up without giving it our best shot. She had said to me, only a short time earlier, that she thought our sex life was crap, and she would like it at least twice a week, which was a surprise to me because I thought she’d lost interest in sex. We both wanted the same thing! I also told her that I had been using DIY to make up for the gap between the amount of sex I wanted, and the amount she appeared to want, and had re-discovered the huge additional excitement and satisfaction I get when doing that, wearing sexy women’s clothes.

We then got the book out, and I asked her what she wanted to know, and promised to give her honest and truthful answers. Well, guess what her response was? “What I’ve read so far hasn’t changed my mind, and what you might say will never change my mind either. I think that men wearing women’s clothes is disgusting and it makes me sick just to think about you wanting to do that”. Not the best start! She hadn’t marked any areas for discussion either, and had no questions to ask. This was beginning to look like a one-sided dialogue, but fortunately, I’d listed a number of points on paper to try and lead us logically through a discussion. Starting with , “Are you worried I may be gay?” “No”. “Good, I’m not. Are you concerned I may want to change sex?” “No”. “Good, I don’t. Have you any other concerns?” “I think it’s disgusting”. “Do you have any idea why I feel that I want to CD? I’d like to tell you, but I don’t know why myself. I just know that it gives me a hell of a lot of pleasure and excitement.” I turned to page 46, where Kyrie lists all the individual elements she enjoys about wearing female clothes, and I’d ticked most of them for her to read. As she read them, she said nothing until she came to bras and breastforms and said “Having breasts doesn’t alter your centre of gravity. That’s crap!” I said “That’s not really relevant, look at the rest I’ve ticked. I feel excited by all the ones I’ve marked, Do you want to ask me about them?” She didn’t. Then she noticed the picture below, of Kyrie in all her feminine glory. “Is that a woman or a man?” “That’s a man, the one who’s listed all these features of CDing that give him pleasure” “Do you want to look like that?” “I’m too old to be that good, but if I was 30 years younger, yes.” “Oh that makes me feel sick. I thought I married a man, and that’s what I want, a 100% manly man. You said last time (ie. 20 years ago!) that it was only the feel of the clothes that you wanted. You’ve been spending so much time on ‘that site’ that you’ve become obsessed about the subject. (True, I may spend an hour or two here most nights before I go to bed, and I do find it addictive) If you stopped obsessing about it you wouldn’t feel the need so much ” Then out came all my other “failings”; things I haven’t done since I retired. So the discussion fell apart before we got to the point of “Where do we go from here?”, apart from a confirmation that she didn’t want to see any evidence of my CDing in the home.
[Tony

Tony,
There is so much here to digest, which is what your wife must be feeling also.
The first problem is that she thinks that your sex life and crossdressing are tied together. Does she think that making love to you would be accepting crossdressing? I get the feeling that she is a very hurt women who doesn't feel loved. She may feel that you find this whole business more important than her. You admittedly say that you spent a lot of time on the computer. Do you try to engage her sexually? Why has your sex life suffered so? It doesn't sound like you are demanding crossdressing before you participate in a sex life. I have to say that for me when my husband lets the intimacy slide by either not touching me , talking to me,or spending too much time on the computer , it makes me feel that he doesn't find me attractive. I start feeling that I am not a priority and at first I feel hurt then I get mad. I find myself being critical of everything. You need to get off the computer and get in the relationship. Try having music on when she gets home, light some candles and DO NOT TURN ON THE TV. Start "dating again". Show her that you really do love her. Really talk to her with no expectations. Try having her sit in the kitchen while you make dinner or something. Maybe you should do it in the nude with only a sexy apron on :D The idea here is to start small and reconnect as friends who want to be lovers. You said that she doesn't want a sex less marriage or a divorce. She needs to connect to you. Stop making your sex life crap for her. Pretend that she is someone you are pursuing and not married to. Plan something special. Get a cd on errotic massage, just do something.

Get rid of the book. She wants to know what this all means to her from you.
I'm getting the feeling that the book is becoming a burdon , like an assignment for school. She did read 30 pages so take that as a positive sign.
(she said that from what she has read so far she hasn't change her mind, but she said that she didn't know if she ever would. That is not the same as her saying never) I find this to be an open door rather than a closed one. Again I think that she needs a second honeymoon and a reconnection with you, the love of her life. She says that she doesn't want to see any evidence in the home because she has used this tactic sucessfully before. She figures that it is going to work for another 20 years. If she can get away with it then there is no skin off her nose. Remember she would rather not got down this road.

While you are getting reconnected intimatly explain to her until she believes you that this is something important to you that you want to share with the most important person in your life, her. You seem to have a tendency to back down and go back to the corner this is what she is expecting you to do this time. I am not talking about being in her face militant but don't back down and keep telling her this is important. Take Donna T's advice on this one.

After you jump start the sex life and the relationship bring home a sexy pair of panties for her and a different pair for you. (be carful here, make sure that you get the right size, not too small, and if she has a tummy problem don't get her anything with strings on the sides. You will never get her to wear it. I would suggest some lacy boy shorts in the right size. They are flattering and don't let anything hang out innappropriately) Suggest she put them on. Romance her and take her to bed with her favorite music playing and a candle lit in the bedroom. Start by kissing and paying attention to her and see what happens.:) You might be surprised. Don't go too fast. If you get her to accept the panties then don't think that you can go straight to wigs and breast forms. You will only drive her back to non acceptance. Make things fun. Act like you have a naughty secret in common. But don't go overboard.

Have her sit down at the computer with you, show her this site and read some threads together. Start a dialogue. Don't get angry with her. Tell her about us gg's and inviter her to join.

I feel for you Tony, this is not the easiest of situations but it can be accomplished if you are motivated. Kitty

[Dragster]

Once again, I’m overwhelmed with the way all you good people here have made the effort to help me in my hour of need, by sharing your experiences and offering me the benefit of your advice; often in some very lengthy posts. I’m aware of the effort that is necessary to do that, I’ve already written one reply to this, and lost it to the ether before it was properly posted! I can’t possibly reply to you all individually, but I say a big thank you to you all, and I’ll just pick out the following points.

I know I’m batting at a disadvantage by not being prepared to end the relationship, but I love her too much to do that after 37 happy years together, but I will take the advice offered by many of you to keep talking. I won’t do it often enough to “get up her nose”, but I hope she’ll realise that I’m serious, and it’s not going to just go away.

I’ll also follow you suggestion purple spider GG (where did you get that name?) and I’ll keep asking what is it that is disgusting. As someone else who is close to Manchester, I may contact you for more ideas later, if I get past first base!

Stephanie Kay, I’m not addicted to porn, but I am addicted to CDing and my wife lumps them all together as “porn”. About 80% of the time I spend on the computer is here on CD.com, and a lot of the rest looking at on-line lingerie, sexy clothing and shoe sellers and e-bay wistfully wishing that we were BOTH wearing some of the exciting outfits. I do admit to a liking for erotic stories and some bondage too, my fantasy is to be tied by my wife while she does whatever she likes to me, and vice versa, but that’s hardly demeaning. I take your message on board about being sensitive to her feelings too. I don’t “play” with myself whenever she is in the house either, even when she’s asleep; it doesn’t seem right. Illogical, I know.

Bev06 GG, you say my wife may thing she’s not fulfilling me enough, and right now that’s true, and one of the reasons I seek sexual input elsewhere, but not with another person; I am monogamous. And the whole thrust of my talking to her is to put that right. I also accept that I must make an effort to fulfill her too, but until I get her to open up her real desires to me, I’m shooting in the dark. I’ll keep trying till I die, but not often enough to get up her nose.

Toyah, I never intended my “Big Chat” to be a one-off, balls-out big meeting. I told her I expected we would need to come back to this several times before we reached agreement. I guess the first time we put some time to talk about such a big subject was always going to be seen as an “event” though.

SusieJ, right now, she’d feel far too embarrassed to talk to another person about something as intimate as this, and I’m not sure she’ll ever try the GG section of this forum for the same reason, even though it’s so anonymous. And if you’ve got the hots for the shape of my avatar, are you sure you’re on the right forum???????????

HaleyPink2000, I do intend to seek a local support group, but I expect the idea won’t go down too well. It may be a catalyst for some sort of recognition though, and a further indication that I’m serious.

DonnaT, I’ll be happy with agreeing some ground rules right now, and I won’t back down from at least a recognition that it’s not going to just go away.

Kittypw GG, I’m not demanding CD in exchange for sex, I’d be happy to sort our sex life out independently, but she’s not happy making love to someone who she knows likes to wear women’s clothes. We do still touch, kiss, and cuddle, but she seems less enthusiastic than she did, and like you at times, she is more critical. I’ve cut down the computer activity too, but I can’t keep up with this sort of support when I do! She’s the TV addict too, not me! I like the idea of a nude dinner, with just an apron; could I get away with a pretty frilly one though???

There’s a lot of other good responses here too, especially the ones which came from GGs. You’re the ones who are most likely to understand what’s going on in my wife’s head, and I really do appreciate your input. I’m going to try a few of them and I’ll let you know how successful I’ve been. My objective is to build a closer relationship and hope that some form of acceptance of my CDing naturally follows.

Many thanks,
Tony

[kittypw GG]

Tony,
I think absolutly you could get away with the frilly apron. Humor is a good approach. I think if I saw my hubby nude with a frilly apron on making dinner with music and candels I would be thrilled.

I saw an interview with a marriage/relationship specialist. His name was Melville Hendrix and his book is getting what you want out of marriage (or someting similar) His suggestion was to come up with 3 things that are important to you (make yours reasonable, with her acceptance in mind) She picks one that she will commit to doing for three weeks (you can use a different time frame but don't make it too long) She gets to do the same. Each one of you pick just one of the three. After the time frame then three more are picked etc. You both get something out of it. One of your three could be that she allows you to wear panties to bed maybe a couple of times a week. Or she makes an effort to be more adventurous in the bed room then give her some ideas of what that would be. (make it simple, you know what will freak her out so go gentle) Anyway I think you get the picture. My husband and I are trying this and I am excited.

The idea here is to shut off the tv and get connected with eachother.

The other suggestion is to tell eachother at the end of the day up to 3 things that you appreciated about the other. Do this every day. I am excited about this one also. My husband is very quiet and not much of a talker and I think it will help him talk more and I will get to know more of what he is thinking about me rather than making things up in my mind. If you can't come up with three then at least one.

I wish you the best of luck. This can be accomplished. It may not be your ideal crossdressing relationship but it could be a lot closer than you have now. :happy: Kitty