Misgendering??

[Philippa Jane]

Tonight was the first-time I can remember anyone mentioning my gender.
I was having dinner with a younger GG who is well known to the owners of the restaurant
The male owner stopped by to ask if everything was alright and it was somehow mentioned that I was Transgender. For me no harm no foul, but my friend was less than pleased.
She felt this was rather rude as I am presenting as a woman and should be addressed as such and you have all seen my pictures.
Should I have felt affronted ? Perhaps not as it was not announced to the rest of the patrons.
How do you all feel about this?

[Stephanie47]

I have to assume the male owner raised the point. What was the purpose for him to raise the point? Personally, I am not one to raise a stink about many things. However, I can understand why someone would have been put off by the comment. Maybe, the conversation was a little more involved than just a declaration?

[Teresa.Smith.VA]

Since you were presenting yourself as a woman, I believe that it's rude for anyone other than you to raise the subject.

[kimdl93]

It is fine that you choose NOT to feel affronted by the comment. It?s probably better for us to have a thick skin, since such misgendering will happen, intentional or not. By the same token, it was nice of your GG friend to feel, as she did. Allies like her make life a great deal more enjoyable!

[Jasmine23]

Hi Philippa Jane,
How ever you felt in the moment is your most genuine feeling, you don't need anyone else to tell you how you should feel, however, good intentioned they are, including your friend. Only you can really know how you felt or should feel about this, it sounds as if there was no ill intent by the owner as you took it in your stride. Your friend is probably being over protective which is great, but, if you didn't feel hurt in the moment, then what harm was done. Do you think the owner was rude or maybe didn't use his words properly.

[Suzie Petersen]

Philippa,

I certainly understand if an interaction like that felt uncomfortable to you, you have every right to expect to be treated like, and addressed as a woman, even if someone read you. Some people are just not very sensitive.

But choosing to see this from a different perspective, by not getting upset in a situation like that, any of us who are either transitioned like you, or just out crossdressed and presenting fully as a woman, are really being ambassadors for the entire T community, and I want to believe that even in a situation like that, our positive attitude and smiles will help such people better accept the next trans person they come across.
Getting offended or upset will likely not help much anyway, so we might as well make it a win.

Hugs
Suzie

[Jodi79]

interesting question. I am just a guy who likes women's clothing more than men's. I consider myself a man. I am usually out and about (very very rarely) MIAD mode. When people call me ma'am or Mrs I always say sir is fine. I bet I confuse the heck out of people and make them wonder what the right thing to say is. I realize I am the odd one out in this forum. I often feel like I really don't fit in anywhere.

[GaleWarning]

Who mentioned that you are transgendered? Your young lady friend? Then you were not misgendered.
Did the male owner know that you are transgendered? Or did he ask if you were? It does not sound as though he deliberately set out to offend you by misgendering you. But I may be wrong.
The way you describe what happened, it is not easy for me to reach a conclusive conclusion or opinion. Other than ...
You are transgendered. Why be offended by the truth?

[Genifer Teal]

Unfortunately the old school thought of identifying you by your gender appearance is no longer correct. The only proper way would be to ask. He was still wrong. The current culture of gender fluidity makes it difficult to claim why would you not address me as a woman.

It always confused me 15 years ago that people could clearly see how i was presenting yet chose to address me otherwise. Either they wouldn't accept me or were saying you didn't fool me or making an intentional insult. There is a slight chance it was innocent you are a man. It didn't bother me to the point of making a scene. It was just rude and confusing at the same time.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Timr to find a new Restaurant,

[OrdinaryAverageGuy]

Well, you are, aren't you?

[Dutchess]

I can't believe no one has said this

Misgendering would be if they called you sir dude mister man hey boy whatever. The only way I can see him being offensive using the t word is if he called you a tranny??

You are transgender. At least that's how you describe yourself.

Most of the very very visible transgendered people in this world people like buck Angel and Laverne Cox people like that that absolutely say that they're transgendered they're transgender they know that they're not natal males or females .

Therein lies the difference .

[Philippa Jane]

Oh my so much concern over a throwaway comment.
I shall try to give a little perspective.
The owner in question greeted me the previous day while I was in the supermarket. I thought this was quite nice and I made a point of saying thank you when I saw him the following day when I was ordering drinks.
The person who I was with is there very often and knows the owner so it was just him coming over to ask if our meals were ok.
In truth I cannot remember exactly what was said between him and Caz only her reaction to him saying something about me being transgender.
He does not care, he has seen me as a person and a valued customer.
When Caz said after he left that what he said was rude (outing me) I could care less. I don't believe it was done with any malice.

- - - Updated - - -


It is fine that you choose to feel affronted by the comment. It?s probably better for us to have a thick skin, since such misgendering will happen, intentional or not. By the same token, it was nice of your GG friend to feel, as she did. Allies like her make life a great deal more enjoyable!

Kim I was not affronted by the remark. I just don't care and yes Caz is over protective of me.
Same can be said by Jasmine23

Suzie. Thank you but I never felt uncomfortable. I have more than enough confidence to just shrug this off.

Ah Gale. You have the wrong end of the stick. My friend knows just about everything about me (probably more than she should after all that wine) and she accepts me totally.

Genifer. I think he is older than me and is still very "old school" so the language he used in his eyes might not be considered out of place.

Blue. The food is good and the place is very local to myself and Caz. One little thing like that is not enough to put me off.

Ordinary. Well yes I am but I am not sure where you are going with your comment. The point of my thread was to show that these things can happen and wondering how others feel about it.

Dutchess. I can see what you are saying and when I wrote this last night I was a little drunk. I probably in hindsight should have called it being outed. I am TS and proud of it.
This is not the first time I have not framed my threads correctly. I may never get it right but I will keep trying.

[Sometimes Steffi]

I am in favor of Suzie's view.

By not getting upset, you are comfortably validating your own status.

[kimdl93]

. ?.

Kim I was not affronted by the remark. I just don't care and yes Caz is over protective of me.
Same can be said by Jasmine23


Phillips Jane, I just came back to this thread to follow the discussion and realized i had managed to omit the key word. ?Not?.

I thought you reacted wisely by NOT choosing to take offense. Given the additional context you provided, your reaction seems even more appropriate. Sorry I botched my initial comment.

[Helen_Highwater]

Some people are clued up enough to now know there's a protocol to be observed and act according. There are those who just live in simple ignorance of how things have changed. There are others who also know the protocol but deliberately act to cause offence.

I can forgive the second group. Their world is limited and if they mis-gender they do so out of ignorance and not malice.

It's the third group that I'll ignore completely. It's they who have the problem so I'm not going to let their nastiness spoil my day. In fact with the right body language you can tell them you couldn't care less and that takes away the power they thought they had.

Those who deliberately misgender will only have their opinions strengthened if you get into an argument. Leave them to live in their own sad world and get on living yours.

[docrobbysherry]

When you've been out enuff and can't pass like me? U get used to being "misgendered".

But, I'm curious which sex u consider to be misgendered? An obvious man in a dress called, "sir", or "ma'am"?:eek:

Personally, when someone calls me "ma'am", or a harried SA or server calls me "sir"? It neither makes my day nor ruins it.:straightface:

As long as they r trying to be polite and/or do their job well? I'm pleased!:)

[Claire M]

This thread seems like much ado about nothing. It sound like the best reaction would be a comment to your frie d about what a great guy the manager is for respecting you as who you are!

[Genifer Teal]

I don't understand why you have to guess someone's gender and state it out loud for all to hear, just to be polite? Have a nice day. Sounds fine to me.Why do you have to add sir or madam? Granted, most of the time, it's obvious and correct. Then there are those times where you're not sure, and you still guess? As a minimum, at those times you should just leave it out. I think the time has come for society to eliminate this practice all together. We should all be fine with "have a nice day."

[MonikaCD]

I am from a country where gender is integral part of all adjectives and most verbs - it's hard to address someone in a neutral way without stating his or her gender. Still I don't get the idea of misgendering.
If you are a men dressed in woman's clothing and someone address you as male - well you are not passing good enough in their eyes. Try to do better. Don't you know who you are or do you really need some kind of assurance anytime someone open their mouth? It's fun when you get ma'amed, but if you are not that's not a big deal.
And the people offended in someone else name are the worst. It's not up to them and they are very often wrong about their judgment.

[Genifer Teal]

It becomes rude when it's apparent.The person is shouting out loud.There's a man here dressed as a woman. English does not respect gender as much. You can easily say just about everything. In a gender-neutral way, and you can especially be polite without even identifying gender. But for some reason, people feel it is necessary to identify someone's gender just to be polite. I think that's an old way of thinking.And we need to move forward and be more progressive in today's world. Have a nice day versus. Have a nice day, sir, or ma'am is no different to me.Both are nice. Have a nice day man in a dress who didn't fool me. It's very rude.

[alwayshave]

Philipa, I have been misgendered. But I have just let it roll of my back. I'm not going to validate their purposeful misgendering by saying anything.

[marika_jaye]

Sometimes, we (humans) take ourselves too seriously. While it would be nice to be referred to as the gender we are presenting at the moment, we cannot change the way others perceive us. I've never passed, and I doubt I ever will, and I'm alright with it. Most people perceive me as a man in feminine clothes.

Rarely do I ever go full "femme," with makeup, wig, etc., but when I do, I would be delighted to be referred to using feminine descriptors, but I don't lose my mind if I'm not. I'm an oddity out there in the big world, and I expect people to see me as such. Bearing that in mind, I don't mind being called "Sir," "Ma'am," or anything in between. I simply don't put much stock into the opinions of others, especially strangers.

[HelpMe,Rhonda]

The misgendering you get in a retail setting often comes right at the end, you have a nice meal or a couple drinks and do the whole transaction and then your visit ends with a 'sir'. It dampens your experience just a little.

Most people who get 'sir' are fine with it, but probably wouldn't miss it if they didn't get it. A small sliver of people are either going to be happy or sad to have their gender guessed by an employee. So the majority of the customers don't need that gendering.

A place I patronized yesterday and misgendered me in that fashion has a positive transgender awareness post up on Instagram, so I messaged them suggesting that the gendering you get there can potentially irk those people they are claiming to support in that post

It doesn't anger me, it's just a little annoying, like if someone mispronounces your name or gets your name wrong altogether.

[GretchenM]

Well, I guess I am with Dutchess and also Janey (Marika). I don't think being outed is a big deal unless you are in a hostile environment. Then it can be a really big deal. But I think Dutchess is correct. Misgendering is like what happened early in Will and Harper when a waitress called Harper "Sir". Harper just softly and politely said, "Mam" without even looking up and the waitress corrected herself and the ordering of the meal went on without incident. It was just correcting a wrong reference. I think that is better than making a big deal of it. That creates division and hard feelings that are not necessary - there is a bit too much of that stuff in the world as it is. Not everybody is on board with the pronoun aspect, but it is important and I think should be corrected. But a softly said, gentle correction with a friendly smile will go a long ways to preventing polarization. No body gets embarrassed or offended. Polarization is avoided.

[Genifer Teal]

I wonder that maybe people took my words as being extremely sensitive to misgendering. I am not the gender nazi. I don't correct people in public. It bothers me when there is no actual need to state someone's gender yet. For some reason, people feel compelled to do so even when there might be obvious confusion.

[Stacy Darling]

Wow, This is so hard!
I'm genetic male pronoun Miss, and get it so much, times will improve we hope.
Don't confront them as they will burn out in time.

[JohnH]

I don't care at all if someone genders me as male or female. I have a request: just don't call me that endearing term of drill sergeants to raw recruits: Maggot.
However I have to remember to respond if I am called out by Ma'am.

John

[Bea_]

Should I have felt affronted ? Perhaps not as it was not announced to the rest of the patrons.
How do you all feel about this?

My personal opinion is that you handled it with grace.

I do feminine, but not female. My preferred pronouns are he, him, sir. I have waist length gray hair and have had waiters coming from behind ask "What can I get for you ladies?" when I've been out (total drab) with my wife. When that waiter comes around and sees my bearded face, there's always a moment of embarrassment on their part. It doesn't faze me in the least. I think it's happened twice.

My personality is more androgynous than typical male or female. So, I tend to find it easy to go with the flow of any interaction like this. It makes life easier.