The Talk and The Talk Back

[Sometimes Steffi]

My wife discovered my crossdressing desires about 17 years ago. How do I remember that. I was on an assignment that took me out of town for about a month at a time for about 6 months. I was home unpacking and repacking for my next trip. My wife came home from church early and caught me packing some bras.

We had the talk and agreed to some boundaries.

But, she did occasionally give me the Talk Back, mostly about how I cheated her out of a real man (my words). I was often asked how long I had been crossdressing and why didn't I tell her before we got married. One time she told me that, "I'm not sure if I would have married you if I knew [about your crossdressing] before we got married. That hurt. That really hurt and still does.

I went out for Halloween with friends, which is our codeword for gurl friends. Since then, she's been giving me little digs about my crossdressing. And she gave me a more intense grilling this morning.

Rather than sit and take it, I took a fearless pill and threw it right back to her. "Do you want to leave? Do you want me to leave?" I've gotten tired of putting up with it. So I decided to put it out there.

For those of you who have separated or divorced, did your life overall improve or get worse.

[DianeT]

About the sentence: "I'm not sure if I would have married you if I knew [about your crossdressing] before we got married."
My wife asked herself this question. And also, when we were back together after a long separation, whether she would have come back had she known. She doesn't have the answer. She will never get the answer. Because the only way she could, would have been to know at the time she had a choice to make to be with me or not. She feels trapped now, because once you're in a couple (or back into it after a split), the decision to opt out is a thousand times more difficult than just choosing not to opt in. She's not saying that she wouldn't have chosen me. But it hurts her not to know. It hurts to have been robbed of your choices by a lying husband. It hurts to have invested so much in your couple and not being able to make a free will decision. Our wives are the injured party, not us. If we give a stab at walking in their shoes, maybe we'll decide that they are entitled to some level of frustration and acrimony. Maybe if we accept that, if we give them the impression that we understand the wrong we did to them, if we show some empathy, maybe love can find a way, and maybe things can get a little better. But that's a big if, and it all depends on us, not them. We can make amend and try to rebuild the broken trust, the couple, and they can decide if they follow, or we can throw the towel. But it's our choice to try or give up.
For what it's worth, I love my wife deeply, and I didn't give up. And my wife loves me deeply, and neither did she. I sacrificed a few things. I was paid ten times in return. I don't know about your own situation. As they say, your mileage may vary.

[audreyinalbany]

personally I feel like the 'I wouldn't have married you.." is pretty thin. you could jsut as easily turn it around to. "I wouldn't have married you if I'd known you would shut down our sexual relationship after the kids were born..." or 'I wouldn't have married you I'd known you snore.." or " I wouldn't have married you I'd known you squeeze the toothpaste in the middle..." I'd never have married you if I'd known you were gong to get cancer"...if it's love it's love...the point is we tolerate and accept the people we love ...the good and the bad...because we love them. Not to get political...I know that's a 'no fly zone' here...but...there is never the perfect candidate and there is never the perfect mate. If it's real love, we tolerate each others imperfections and foibles and get through it all together. we don't have to love everything about our life partner, we jsut have to stick to our commitment.

[docrobbysherry]

I'm sorry, Steffi, but your comment to your wife got to me!:sad:

Real men talk about their feelings! The rest r too insecure to do that!:eek:

Your wife chose u for a reason. Don't EVER think you're not man enuff! Unless u decide to become a female!:heehee:

As to your question? When I separated from my wife I went thru a couple of difficult years. But, that's when Sherry showed up! After that, our divorce was better for each of us and our kids!:thumbsup:

The freedom and ending fear of getting caught and/or offending my SO was very enlightening and empowering!:tongueout

Our divorce let me become who I wanted and needed to be!:battingeyelashes:

[Brynna M]

You hid something from your wife. That's wrong. Maybe the best of bad options but she still HAD a reason to be upset. What no person has is the right to hold your past deception over your head forever. Either there is a way to make amends and move on or there isn't and you split officially or emotionally. hiding crossdressing is not so great a sin that you need to tolerate a marriage with endless recrimination. You have every right to set boundaries on how you are willing to be treated.

[CharlotteCD]

One time she told me that, "I'm not sure if I would have married you if I knew [about your crossdressing] before we got married. That hurt. That really hurt and still does.

I had that one, and yes, it really hurt, even though she still went on to have a child with me AFTER finding out. It hurt because she rejected a part of me that I have no control over, and she put her prejudice ahead of my feelings.


For those of you who have separated or divorced, did your life overall improve or get worse.

I'll start by saying I am a big believer in marriage, til death do we part, better or for worse and all that goes with it.

HOWEVER...

My dressing needs had basically gone away through most of 2009-2019, with a brief dalliance in 2014 shortly before meeting my wife. Meeting her, and having my emotional and physical needs fulfilled, totally wiped any desire to dress - discovering since that my relationship with dressing is very much based around my emotional state.

I married during that hiatus and therefore didn't disclose it as it had been gone for 4 years before marriage, and then my wife discovered my dressing around 9 months after we married.

She then spent 5 years being unpleasant to me about it, and it was a huge strain on how she saw me (though she tells me it was far more than just that). I had the following:

"If it was somebody down the street, I wouldn't care, but not in my home"
"I would rather you just admit it if you're gay - I will find a way to get over that"
"The thought of it [dressing] disgusts me"

Roll on to 11 months ago and the divorce discussion which started our separation, and we were both unhappy. I was unhappy but trying to improve myself and our relationship. She wasn't interested and had eyes elsewhere whilst pretending that she was still invested in the relationship.



Divorce was THE ABSOLUTE BEST outcome for me. I resisted it through the start of the year through fear of losing what I thought was still a marriage to salvage.

I've since met somebody who understands and accepts my feminine side and has been helping me process the massive amounts of shame I feel about my dressing thanks to my upbringing and my ex-wife. Both her and my parents made it feel so wrong, and now I am with somebody who cut my wig, has painted my nails, gone shopping with me etc.

The reality is that I have been extremely lucky to find her, but either way I know that I would be happier alone than I was in the relationship. Those hurtful comments are abuse, and we only get one life. Don't waste that life being abused.

[GaleWarning]

Without passing any judgment on who is right or wrong, I will merely state that, should either of you choose to divorce, it WILL be a costly process. Choose wisely.

Only you can decide if it will be worth it; only you can choose which path to follow.

[Sometimes Steffi]

I didn't tell the whole truth before we got married. But my crossdressing was the last hurdle that I had to cross. My stash at that time consisted of about half a dozen pairs of panties and a bra or two.

I knew (at least at that time) that my crossdressing was tied to, umm, arousal. After thinking about it, I though, or at least convinced myself that I could quit crossdressing. I thought that once I was married that I would have more than enough "normal" arousal that I wouldn't need or want external stimuli. It turned out that marital bliss wasn't quite so blissful. I didn't get as much sex in the bargain as I anticipated. After the honeymoon period, I was getting less sex than during courtship. I think she may have been deceptive about enjoying sex.

My downfall probably started innocently enough. I didn't purge. If I had been honest with myself, I should have purged, but I didn't. I don't remember this, but I probably got horney and took care of my own needs. And it was good. I didn't see the harm in a little "extra-marital" arousal, until I started doing it too often. And borrowing her clothes when she went out of town on business.

Now, crossdressing is much more important to me. When my parents passed away, I got a small inheritance. It was in the form or an IRA, and I had a small RMD (required minimum distribution). Since this was "off the books" so to speak, I justified using it to fund my wardrobe, and my post office box to where I could ship my purchases surreptitiously.

There wasn't much intimacy in my marriage, but it went to zero after I started using a CPAP. The noise of the CPAP caused my wife to move into the other bedroom so she could sleep. By this time, she was aware of my crossdressing, and that may have been an ulterior motive to move into the other bedroom. Maybe that should have been the time to separate further than a bedroom away.

[Philipa Jane]

We see this so often when news of our crossdressing is discovered.
Why didn't you tell me before or are you gay? Do you want a sex change?

Most of us older members had been hiding this all of our lives and the last thing we wanted was to be outed. We all tried to be the male that our bodies aligned us with.
With so little information back in the day I just thought like Steffi that it was a sexual thing and in my case thought I would grow out of it.
Then later in life you think of it as more of some sort of perversion and that you are a bit weird.
There is just so much pressure to keep this side of ourselves hidden.

When we do get discovered or out ourselves we are the worlds worst person.
When a psychologist tells you don't worry it's just clothes I wonder just why this does not resonate with our wives or partners.
It is all woe is me from the SO but little is considered by them about all of the pain that we may have been going through leading this double life.

Sure Audrey hit the nail on the head by saying if only.
Not many of us really knew where we would be going in years to come.
If only I knew I was transexual all those years ago and acted upon it I would have not have had the wonderful life I had with my wife.

I know if the GG's here see this they will have a different view. They are not the only ones who get hurt. However I never set out to hurt anyone intentionally.

[SophiaRose]

Couldn?t have said it better Philipa.

[kimdl93]

It?s a mixed bag. I was married twice for a total of 36 years. The first divorce was gut wrenching and emotionally devastating. It was not due to cross dressing, but instead reflected the accumulation of behavioral health issues that I had failed to address over my lifetime. By contrast, the second marriage failed explicitly because of my cross dressing.

Is it better or worse post divorce? As with most things, it?s a mixed bag. I certainly have greater freedom of how I live from day to day. At this stage in life I have little interest in undertaking a new relationship. Partly because I am I unwilling to become part of another person?s network of family and friends. Perhaps that is because I am introverted, indifferent or selfish.

My final assessment is colored by nostalgia and also regret for the bad choices and sometimes thoughtless behaviors that cost me the first marriage. It?s fruitless to devote to much time reliving those mistakes. I hope at least to avoid repeating some of them in the time that remains.

[Genifer Teal]

"I would rather you just admit it if you're gay - I will find a way to get over that"
"The thought of it [dressing] disgusts me"

It is a shame to hear some people think this way. I am completely baffled why it would be seen any differently from gay, or gay would in some way be better.

[GretchenM]

I am sure there are many others with a similar history to mine. I was all about girls and being one when young, but that pretty much faded to just an occasional thing after I was about 14 when I discovered girls while being a boy. Now those times were great when I could be with a favorite girlfriend, but the inner sense of being somehow a bit of a girl persisted and popped up every now and then (meaning, every 6 months or so). Then in college it almost totally disappeared - I was too busy studying to pay attention to such feelings. I got married at the end of my 6th year at University and went in the Navy (Viet Nam Era). When I was discharged I went back to University for a year and finished my MS.

True to what often happens, after military service it is not unusual for buried trans characteristics to come out big time. They were wild in me during that time in the early 70's. They scared me and I knew I could not tell my wife as she would be gone in a flash. (Or so I thought.) That all continued off and on until 2012 when BAM, it all came out in a Vesuvius like eruption. I had to do the reveal or my body would explode. It actually went quite well and it has been acceptable since. But I cannot be Gretchen in front of her and she really doesn't want to talk about it much. That's OK too. And I am sure, from other evidence, that she is of the "I wish I had known before we got married" mind set, but she has not said it. I can feel it though. After 55 years of marriage we know what the other is thinking without saying a thing.

Recently I have begun to discuss bits and pieces with her and after we watched Will and Harper together we talked a lot. I explained to her that I would have been more honest about that, but quite frankly I believed it had all gone away for the most part when we got married mostly because I was madly in love with her. It was not until after we had been married about 5 years that the inner girl crept back into my being and began to bug me again. I explained to her that, like Harper, when young I just felt different from the others and I never understood what the stronger feelings were about or what they meant. So I told her that I am sure you would have preferred to have a more "normal" guy rather than someone who is a bit trans. But the truth is I did not choose this aspect of me; it was an outgrowth of something incomprehensible that appeared when I was about 4 or 5 years old, just like Harper said. I should have revealed it earlier but it wasn't there and I am sorry that I felt compelled to hide it for so long, but it scared me and I didn't know what to do with it or about it.

It was a teary conversation, but she now understands more. It hasn't changed her views, but she is more accepting of that aspect even though she still doesn't want to meet Gretchen. That is OK because I know she has an image of me that is not false, it is just incomplete. She doesn't want that image shattered; and that is OK. I respect that choice. And there are things about her that I don't want to know about either. That is life.

But the love for each other after 55 1/2 years together far outweighs any of these wrinkles we might rather not have. Saying good bye is not possible for either of us. The warts are part of who we are. That is genuine LOVE.

[docrobbysherry]

Nice post, Gretchen! That was what my 18 y/o daughter said when I came out to my family:

"You've always been my dad. Seeing u present as a woman would be very disturbing!":eek:

And, I don't pretend to understand love. But, I have seen too many couples stay together long after the caring and intimacy vanished!:sad:

[BLUE ORCHID]

My:love:Wife of just about 61 Years now have a very workable DA/DT,

We agreed Many Many Years ago that we need each other & couldn't afford to split up,

[Sometimes Steffi]

A lot of girls here say that they always felt different, even when they were very young. But I was always all guy, except when I wasn't. When we picked teams without adult supervision, I wasn't the last one picked like many here. In fact, I was usually the one doing the picking.

[Gi Gondin]

This is a fantastic topic and the different life experiences are very enlightening. Thank you for sharing with all of us.

I would like to add two points to this discussion:

1. It does not take much empathy to perceive the reasons why many of us did not disclose crossdressing pre wedding. And that will range from not enough self knowledge to fear of losing someone that you love or shame of judgement?.

- should that minimal empathy be present in a healthy relationship?

2. Is it possible that our feelings of guilt and shame, socially built in our heads, tilt our perceptions in a way that we accept the non acceptance and/or toxic behaviors in a more favorable light?

- we are not criminals or do not carry some infectious disease. we are built in a special way, hard wired in our brains. Let’s not carry any shame of who we are, please. ����

[Genifer Teal]

Just remember, your wife wants to be the center of your world, not the only thing in your life but the center of it. Especially relating to turning you on. When another interest like this comes along, a lot of feelings.Come to mind for her. Imagine a wife bearing children and no longer feeling as attractive. It's not the same, but the end result and the ideas it puts in her head that you might wonder or lose interest are similar. Now add to that some weird quirky fetish in her mind, or maybe that you're gay in her mind, or who knows what else she could be thinking, because this is a big unknown to most people, they don't understand what we do. They just know we do it without them? And it's a supposedly shameful thing, and we gotta keep it a secret, and the mere fact that it's being kept a secret. Makes it feel shameful, even if it isn't. And it could impact the family in many different ways, losing friends in town, losing money through work, if it gets out and so yeah, this is a huge thing for a wife to find out for the first time.

[GretchenM]

Thanks Gi. Very well put. And I fully agree with you.

NEVER, EVER BE ASHAMED OF WHO YOU ARE! That is a terrible thing to do to yourself. Be positive and stand proud.

[Wendy James]

Stef your story sounds exactly like mine right down to my now ex-wife telling me she is not sure if she had married me if she had known. We had been married for 20 years when I told her, raised kids and stayed married for another 6 years after. During the 6 years I could feel her pulling away. No matter what I would do she continued to pull away. I was same person before I told that I was after I told her. We tried therapy which stopped right when Covid started after a session where she started yelling at the therapist. I really think she wanted the therapist to tell me to just stop. We never discussed it outside of therapy but she never forgave me for not telling her upfront and felt cheated.

The divorce was a little shocking and I went cold turkey and purged. Two year later I started again and now live on my own term. My life in many ways is better and for now am staying single as I figure out who I really am as I approach 60.

[Sandi Beech]

I have no useful advice as people are different and what works for some does not always work for others. Your wife seems a bit like mine in some respects. I am 100 percent sure I would get the same kind of BBQing if she knew I would be going out with the gurls so to speak. Mine just would not be able to accept it and seems yours is having issues with it as well. I suspect she just wants it to stop, and that is what the digs are intended to do. Make it stop. Easier said than done which is why I went underground with my dressing. Out of sight, out of mind. I mean she knows to an extent because she recently found a garment of mine which I later found in the trash. I suppress dressing around her, and I stay out of conflict. She does not want to see any of it. You may have to do something similar if you want to keep the peace. Good luck.

Sandi

[Sometimes Steffi]

Unlike you Sandi, my wife lets me "go out with friends", our codeword. But, she doesn't want to know the details: Where am I going? Whom am i going out with. Mainly, she wants to know when am I coming home. She expects me to have a curfew, unlike my daughter when she was living with us.

What really surprises me is that she doesn't ask where I'm changing.

My wife also lets me go to Keystone.

But, I don't think she has any idea about the extent of my wardrobe. That's all hidden in boxes or suitcases. Since we're DADT, I trust her not to go on a search and destroy, because my clothes aren't really hidden, just out of sight.

[Sandi Beech]

Well at least you have something. It is probably a good idea not to rock the boat too much over CDing if you want to maintain what you have. My opportunities are very much starting to dry up unfortunately. Makes me kind of sad.

Sandi

[alwayshave]

Steffi, I have been divorced from my ex-wife for 20+ years. The separation and divorce were unrelated to my cross dressing. However, I haven't seen my daughters in 15+ years; a promise she made when I left her. I still have to send that rhymes with witch, $3300 a month in alimony until I retire. While I miss my daughters everyday, I am happy I left her. I was truly miserable when married to her. I am a much happier individual today.