Free will and cross dressing/gender identification

[kimdl93]

(This is a bit nerdy, so feel free to move on to other subjects)

I have read some fairly persuasive papers arguing that sentient beings do not have free will. This goes back in part to research by Daniel Kahnemann and Amos Tversky, suggesting that the subconscious mind may often reach conclusions based on heuristics rather than objective facts. And people have an habit of explaining decisions, choices and observations that are demonstrably disconnected from the underlying reality. It could be as simple as explaining why you chose a particular menu item, to your beliefs about the origins of life.

This link describes how a surgical remedy for severe epilepsy opened up an unexpected way to test the existence of free will.

Should you wish you can learn more if you search on you tube for - The Surgery That Proved There Is No Free Will

Many of us have theories about why we are the way we are. This research should give us pause before accepting the explanations we tell ourselves.

[MarinaTwelve200]

Yes, I would admit we often tell ourselves things that simply are not true. This can be a study in itself. Is it out of fear, ignorance or wishful thinking? Or are we determined to DO something and are waiting for an "excuse" or a "good, or good sounding reason" to do so? As a Scientist (Retired) myself, I am aware that ALL of these things must be considered before I actually DO come to a conclusion, and even then, I always am on the watch to see if I was wrong. If such things are even "tricky" for me, I would guess that it would be worse for more "normal", "emotional" people to get to the truth as to what motivates them--- I suppose that's where therapy comes in. In a way, I envy those who are NOT curious for answers, and not HAVE to know.

[kimdl93]

Good point, Marina. Its so easy to succumb to confirmation bias.

[Suzie Petersen]

I agree with you, Marina, that sometimes it would be nice to be able to Not think too deeply about these topics, and just live with it. The old saying "Ignorance is Bliss" comes to mind.

I also believe, and I certainly recognize it in my own behavior, that we often look for justification of our desired behavior. I too work in science and highly technical environments and I must constantly doubt my assessments of any situation to ensure I fully understand the details of the problem, before making decisions. I do however often come across people who base their decisions on emotions instead of facts.

[Brynna M]

And this is why we have complex weighted mathematically modeled pro and con spreadsheets. So we can see our inclinations don't make sense before we follow them anyway. :)

[Sometimes Steffi]

I'm a big believer in Free Will. The alternative would be fate (or pre-destiny), and that's not in my belief structure.

[Rachelakld]

At the age of 9 at school, Anne Stretton told me on the school courts at lunch time, she didn't want to be my girlfriend anymore and I asked the universe what would become of my life - it answered "4 daughters"
So I followed my dream of joining the Airforce, everyone laughed and said I'm not good enough for them and I should work on "Plan B", but I got my dream job with the Airforce

At the age of 38, I had one daughter to my ex, when I meet and fell for a wonderful woman, about 6 weeks of serious dating, I realized her 3 girls and mine, made 4 daughters.
I'm like "Really....?"
I have the most amazing wife and 4 daughters, I've had the adventures and jobs I dreamed of.

I've had quite a few 'near misses", that had the universe not told me to jump, or stand still, seconds later I would have not been alive.

For me, it's like the "Force", we use it with our will and it uses us for it's will.

[ElianaFrozenflame]

Warning: Nerdy reply.

In Edward Ashford Lee's book "Plato and the Nerd", Lee points out several oft ignored factors among science and scientists today. He distinguishes between scientists who try to come up with models for reality, and engineers who create models and then try to make them into reality. Both are essential for advancement, but science has seldom ever advanced in the former mode, but nearly always in the latter mode. Things in engineering models that assume determinism, and constants help us focus on a a limitation to hurdle. But we must not confuse the map (or model) with the territory. Models that assume determinism and/or constants may be useful in a given context, but we shain't make metaphysical conclusions on the basis of the map.

[Cheryl T]

If there is no Free Will then we are just wind up toys going thru the motions for who? Some All Mighty being that is using us for their pleasure? I can't accept that.
Pre-destination would make this all senseless for us and if we are sentient beings why would we accept that? Going thru the motions of daily life, experiencing war, famine, loss of all kinds would likely drive us mad and lead to mass suicide as a path to freedom. But then that too would be pre-planned also making this Being very cruel indeed.

I vote Free Will. All the lemmings to the right please.

[KarenCD334]

I'm a retired nuclear engineer and have been deeply rooted in science and skepticism of my observations and conclusions for my entire 50 year career. I would like to believe in free will but always remain on the watch for clues I am being manipulated, coerced, or holding bias toward conclusions that do not fit facts. My education, training and experience has also taught me to be wary of our models formal scientific models or our constructed belief models we have built ourselves based upon our beliefs, life experiences, and influences by others and where they appear to nicely portray precision in describing particular behaviors.

On the other hand, my wife ensures I do NOT have free will when it comes to Karen.

[docrobbysherry]

"Talk about it laff about it, but when u have to choose? Any way u lose!":thumbsup:

In the end life's a big joke on us all!:devil:

Rather than free will I'd rather talk about luck. That's the only way I can explain still being around and having fun at 80+!:tongueout
When so many of my friends r gone or suffering!:sad:

[SophiaRose]

I love discussing this question while staring into a camp fire.

Many believe we already make decisions before they become conscious to us. A-la no free will. Of course it would have been made based on previous reactions and responses to prior events that are stored in our unconscious. So, there is some influence from our thoughts. A-la there is free will...sort of. Had a bad experience coming out as a CDer? Your next decision will be made for you in your unconscious as you contemplate doing it again.

As crossdressers we've also spent so much time wondering who we are, and hiding these feelings to fit in, that cognitive dissonance comes into play as well. Our belief of what is "normal" forces us to take on male pursuits to fight our true selves. It isn't until we become introspective and accept our authentic self that the inner conflict can be resolved and our actions match out beliefs.

Maybe I've just been reading too much Jung lately...

[Sometimes Steffi]

I've never watched the movie, "The Matrix", but isn't the premise that "The Matrix" isn't real life, but the ultimate game?

[kimdl93]

If you are curious about research involving individuals who have had Corpus callosotomy and what these patients have revealed about consciousness and decision making Google or search YouTube for the PBS Series Nova, Season 50, episode 10.

One thing to remember about humans is that our brains are wired to look for patterns. So much so that we can see patterns in stars, then make up stories about why the stars for the patterns we perceive.

[GretchenM]

These are interesting arguments against the existence of Free Will, but the concept of libertarian freedom (not related to the political concept of libertarianism) provides for us and presumably other creatures as well, the ability to make choices that determine our future. Without Free Will there seems to be no way that anything can be chosen from a collection of choices presented. The choices presented do not exist but are merely potentials that we detect are present and those potentials that we are presented with are infinite in number.

We make our choice based on criteria that are important to us and as soon as that choice is selected all other choices necessarily vanish and we must, at least for now, live with that choice. But it seems that choices have both positive and negative versions similarly to the positive and negative poles of many but not all entities in the Universe. Thus if you make a choice that seems good but it turns out bad you are not necessarily required to continue with that choice; you can always decide to maybe look at alternatives. Your thought creates alternatives none of which actually exist but are only potentials that become real when chosen.

In this I see nothing but Free Will operating. In fact it seems that because we have the ability to choose, Free Will must exist.

(Reference: "The Big Picture" by Sean Carroll)

[CarlaWestin]

I will only align myself with free will with a heavy dose of intellectual analysis to temper my decisions.
My firm belief (not religious) in a higher power certainly anchors me in a benchmark position.
Quotes? Videos? Writings? I'm sure they amuse the enlightened, faux educate the mediocre and confuse the stupid.

[Genifer Teal]

Is it is like quantum physics? Maybe we are both genders until someone declares one for us.

[CarlaWestin]

You're on to something Genifer. But, just declaring that you are something that you're not therefore you must be?
I'm throwing the big flag!
Oh, wait a minute. The OP cited the Masters of All Correct Knowledge. Google and PBS. My bad.

:straightface:

[SophiaRose]

Love it Genifer. Dont forget about quantum entanglement. We are both male and female regardless of how far apart our genders may be. Assigning one only fixes the other?hopefully in a galaxy far far away.

[Genifer Teal]

Kind of what I was going for. i'm no expert on the field. But seriously, maybe we could react to a given situation depending which gender is more appropriate at the time.

[GretchenM]

I strongly believe in the concept that we are both male-like and female-like. That is the idea in the gender mosaic theory. Each person is both to individual degrees, but it is entirely possible for a male to have a very large proportion of female-like traits and characteristics even to the extent of being able to identify as female nearly 100% of the time. Even though sexually he is no where near female. So there really isn't a choice - we are "made" that way and so is everybody else. That is also true of most mammals. But for some reason we got or developed a heavy dose of the female-like side. So, in a sense, the only choice where free will can be involved with respect to gender is how we express who we are to others and to ourselves; in other words, "What the hell am I going to wear today?" There is where some free will comes into play, but the foundation is partly biological and partly acquired by learning. Bottomline: We Choose Freely when the circumstances require us to choose between a multitude of options. No need for spooky stuff - it is what life does best.

[kimdl93]

These kinds of discussions can take off in a lot of directions. My take away is that choices made as an exercise of free will may be driven by some subconscious motivation(s). That subconscious motivation may even be at odds with how we consciously explain/justify our choices.

So, in the instance of answering the question of ‘why I do….”, one should at least consider the possibility that our minds may come up with explanations and attributions that have little or nothing to do with the subconscious motivations.

[DianeT]

I watched the video. So there is no free will and everything is post-rationalization by one hemisphere of decisions made inconsciously by the other. But in reality, you can also take a sheet of paper and write a pros column and cons column before making a decision. Not saying there will be no subjectivity or emotions involved, but you will have considerably reduced the spontaneity of it, making back and forth between the left and right brains. At that point it will be more difficult to pretend that it was only justified after the fact.

As for emergence (the strong version of it in the video's terms), this is the only way I can understand human conscience.

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In a way, I envy those who are NOT curious for answers, and not HAVE to know.
They may be wise, but I don't envy them. I would be bored to death if I couldn't constantly try to lift the hood. In the case of my crossdressing, the more I analyze it, the more I find a few answers, and then more questions. I am my own guinea pig, which makes it one of the most interesting subjects at hand, because it is constantly available for scrutiny. I may never see the end of it. Good ! More fun in store.
As for objectivity/subjectivity, you can try all you might, but objectivity emerges from collective viewpoints and analysis, of various cultures and backgrounds. No scientist alone can really be objective. She or he will just overlook its own biases, cultural and whatnot. But that's of course no reason not to try being objective and questioning your own biases and shortcomings.

[CynthiaD]

I think it's better to ignore questions about free will and just follow your heart. Don't apologize unless you really have done something wrong. Accept others for what they are and treat yourself the same way. Be nice to others, even though they get under your skin. Did you do this because something forced you or because you wanted to? Who cares! Either way, you'll end up with a million friends.

[BLUE ORCHID]

This is way above my Pay Grade, I just dress and enjoy it,

[Julie Almoni]

For all practical purposes, it does not matter in the slightest if we actually have free will - who cares what's happening on the quantum level? We can choose (pun intended) to live as if we had free will or as if we didn't - that is what matters. It's just the same as god - it's not that important for our lives if god is real or not (also we cannot ever know) but what matters is if we choose to live as if it exists, however metaphorical or even atheistic our vision of that is. Do we have an ideal we can strive for but can never fully achieve? That is kinda what god is. If we believe we can get better by making the right choices - we have free will, or as close to it as it really matters.