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Shiny
04-18-2006, 12:20 PM
I have been reading both FtoM and MtoF forums and am amazed at all the similarities between the groups. But I have a question:

Don't you think it is much easier for a FtoM to blend into society than for the MtoF? It goes back to sissy vs tomboy. Label a little girl a "tomboy" and she's just a chip off the old block, daddy's girl. And if she doesn't grow out of it no big deal, she's accepted whether she really blends in or not. The worst outcome is that she is labeled "Butch" or at the very worst a Lesbian. (Interesting though, Lesbianism is more widely accepted than being male-gay).

Conversely if a boy is labeled a "sissy" he's totally screwed! His parents wonder where they went wrong. He takes a beating from the neighborhood boys and a relentless teasing from the neighborhood girls as well because he as broken a cardinal socital rule and is basically ostrasized from day one.

There's a bit of a double standard and sexism here to be sure (i.e. sissies are stepping down by becoming the "weaker sex" and tomboys are stepping up by aspiring to be more masculine). Notice the number of "tough chick" movies out there these days? I believe both sexes are equal in the long run but society doesn't see it that way.

Then there's the issue for MtoF's in "tucking" and in padding the bras to get the right look and get the clothes to fit. Similar to you FtoM's "binding" and "packing." But that just opens the door to more questions and more negative speculation.

Yes I am
04-18-2006, 01:07 PM
The first time I came out to somebody I explained it using those terms, only instead of "sissy" I used the word "tomgirl" (mainly because "sissy" has different fetish connotations now, just google it to see what I mean). There is a double standard, it may be relatively "easier" for a F2M than for a M2F to do their thing in public but that same double standard makes being a genetic male "easier" than being a genetic female in our society. There's a lot of garbage that women are forced to accept and deal with on a daily basis that men pretty much never have to consider or worry about. I think a lot of us M2F types don't appreciate that adequately enough, I think we'd all do well to take the things we learn from playing with gender and apply it to how we act and treat others in our daily lives.

CaptLex
04-18-2006, 02:04 PM
There is a double standard, it may be relatively "easier" for a F2M than for a M2F to do their thing in public but that same double standard makes being a genetic male "easier" than being a genetic female in our society. There's a lot of garbage that women are forced to accept and deal with on a daily basis that men pretty much never have to consider or worry about. I think a lot of us M2F types don't appreciate that adequately enough, I think we'd all do well to take the things we learn from playing with gender and apply it to how we act and treat others in our daily lives.
I couldn't have said it better myself. :thumbup:


Don't you think it is much easier for a FtoM to blend into society than for the MtoF? It goes back to sissy vs tomboy. Label a little girl a "tomboy" and she's just a chip off the old block, daddy's girl. And if she doesn't grow out of it no big deal, she's accepted whether she really blends in or not. The worst outcome is that she is labeled "Butch" or at the very worst a Lesbian. (Interesting though, Lesbianism is more widely accepted than being male-gay).
Actually, Shiny, if you don't grow out of it, it can be a big deal. I have nothing against lesbians, but I'm tired of explaining to people that I'm not one. I think it's much easier to be accepted as a lesbian than as FtM.

Also, you'd be surprised the number of people (mostly females, I find) that reject you if they can't relate to you - if you're not like them. As Yes I Am said, there's a double standard and it's not easy on either side - I don't envy you ladies either.

rachel1985
04-18-2006, 02:51 PM
Hmmmmmmm, being a M2F myself, and wanting to undergo the SRS, i believe i have actually been living my life as a woman. I look back even on todays activities, and the people who surround me, the way i laugh, smile and talk to people. Even my hand gestures on waving to someone or talking, can all be interpretted well... Differently.

I'd like to know where in society i stand, i'm male, i'm sensitive, even my partner doesn't know what hit her when she met me. I'm doing things that a woman would usually do, and my partner is all the more grateful. Maybe i'm just being considerate, or maybe i'm just houseproud, however, i know who and what i am.

My first house, was highly effeminate, yet no-one ever commented, and nobody ever seemed to know. Is homosexuality and genderism becoming too much the same thing?

My room at the moment (i share a house), isn't masculine nor feminine. Yes i have my delicates out for drying on my dryer, however once they are dry, they go away in my drawers. When my male clothes are dry, again, folded away and kept neatly. The only things that can label me anything, is my PC, my notebook, which can effectively label me as a male, however my dvd / CD shelf can counterbalance that, along with my curtains and plants, then labeling me as female. Class this as being homosexual on one half, and hetrosexual on the other. Or am i just seperating my self in two?

Considering the factors of our lives, and our choices. I don't know what to say, other than, you are who you are.
I know that F2M's will have an easier ride, as more and more women come home, throw on some loose fitting trousers and chill, hell my partner does, and i'd expect her to!

Now how does a M2F do this? I can't come home, put a skirt on, and hope and prey that i'm going to relax, make my dinner, not to mention do my housework. This is gender and sex biased.

The social attitude is changing, but far too slow on people these days.

But, thats just my two cents. Hope it makes sense now. hehe

Joy Carter
04-18-2006, 08:03 PM
Rach you are just being you ! :D :D :D :D

Wren
04-18-2006, 09:21 PM
To say that FTM's have it just as hard would probably warrant a beating from most members on the forum. BUT, we tend to think in a western/north american view on things. In a lot of other places women and men have very clear cut roles and if either deviates there is trouble. It also depends a lot on your ethnic background, the place you live, the people you associate with. I told someone in another country once that I didn't want to get married and have children and she asked me "What else is there to do" in all earnesty. I've been the only female wearing pants in several places.

I believe in the negative role in archetypes and conventions, western male pride is too fragile to see a man in a dress, afterall women took the pants. People are hanging on to the last bits of tradition that they have. Maybe Sparro was right, is it time for a neo-men's revolution.

I think tomboys are definitely expected to grow out of their ways, the entire idea of the word is that it is a phase in many girls lives. If you don't grow out of it, parents do start wondering where they go wrong, and lesbianism, although shiek in our society, parents who don't like homosexuality are going to jump to conclusion and not be pleased at all. Women who don't "grow out of it" are labeled as butch and do suffer in society for it. Me, ME!, a casual FTM, crossdresser has stared like a moron at women who are very "butch", for like 10 minutes, it does not go unnoticed.

Maybe I should correct, I don't think lesbianism is at all "cool", bi-curious women is cool, college girls experimenting is cool. But lesbian is synonymous with man-hating dyke, or loose girl in most circles, which is fine if you like being harrassed on the street by some stupid men, or looked at like a cancer by some "classy" girls. (speaking from experience)

I know this forum isn't anti-lesbian but it really starts to bite that the word is thrown about in a negative connotation. "lesbians" aren't bad or harassing anyone, some women who are lesbians are, most lesbians dress no different from heterosexual women and lay low. Some FTM's are Lesbians. It's just in the overgeneralization that we are getting lost. Generalizations create racism and segregration. It creates a polarity, me vs. them idea, and the more we retract from dumping people in boxes the better off we'll be. I've been hassled by people all shapes and sizes, there are just assholes in every subsection of people.

Geez, I'm out of breathe. Anyway some of my post may seem pretty heavy but I'm just talking in passion. I don't mean to offend at all. :D Hopefully I won't offend anyone, anyway.

I've just realized this question comes up a lot. Which is not bad, just interesting, maybe it's a healthy combination of "it is easier" and "the seaweed is always greener in somebody else's lake".

sparro
04-18-2006, 09:39 PM
Maybe I should correct, I don't think lesbianism is at all "cool", bi-curious women is cool, college girls experimenting is cool. But lesbian is synonymous with man-hating dyke, or loose girl in most circles, which is fine if you like being harrassed on the street by some stupid men, or looked at like a cancer by some "classy" girls. (speaking from experience)

I know this forum isn't anti-lesbian but it really starts to bite that the word is thrown about in a negative connotation. "lesbians" aren't bad or harassing anyone, some women who are lesbians are, most lesbians dress no different from heterosexual women and lay low. Some FTM's are Lesbians. It's just in the overgeneralization that we are getting lost. Generalizations create racism and segregration. It creates a polarity, me vs. them idea, and the more we retract from dumping people in boxes the better off we'll be. I've been hassled by people all shapes and sizes, there are just assholes in every subsection of people.


Thank you for posting that... urg. I had.. and still have stigma about calling myself a lesbian, mostly because of that. I'm not a man hater. On the contrary. I often prefer being in the company of guys. Just, when you become a visible minority, it seems like people automatically make assuptions about you based on what they see. And it's easy for them to fix recognize this, and change it. It's the first second that scares me. I'm not a hateful person because of my sexuality, and I know that's probably true for the majority of lesbians.

I suppose I've really gone off on a limb. Back to the topic!

Wren
04-18-2006, 11:57 PM
And while I have nothing against lesbians, it's irritating to be labelled as one. I'm not a lesbian. You have to be female for that, for starters. Although I guess not enough people know about FtMs to even think of labelling me as one.

I hear that. There is nothing worse than being labelled or at the very least miss labelled. Although in the past few weeks I've realized that there are so many different ways of identifying that it just gets plain confusing for people. Some FTM's call themselves lesbians and other don't. Just let it roll like water over a ducks back or whatever.

Maybe the metrosexual male, is the neo-mens revolution. Although it is a stretch from men in dresses yet.

Marlena Dahlstrom
04-19-2006, 01:25 AM
But as soon as there's a girly guy, girls flock to him and he's 'cute'. And he gets labelled as 'sensitive' and 'caring' and having good dress sense.

Unfortunately, many of us will tell you from experience that these sorts of guys often are on the receiving end of the "we're sooo on the same wavelength, I wouldn't want to spoil that by having a relationship...." talk from the women.


Although I guess not enough people know about FtMs to even think of labelling me as one.

Yeah, it sucks being not seen for you are. As you said, I think most people don't even realize that FTMs exist -- which is a bit ironic since FTM crossdressers have been far more prevalent historically.

As far as tomboyism, while it's thinly researched (you guys might be interested in this paper (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2294/is_2003_May/ai_104635133/print), which summarizes much of the prior research and has some interesting findings), various studies all agree that there's a "grace period" in childhood, it gets rather ruthlessly suppressed when girls hit puberty. Which I'm sure is no surprise to you guys.

BTW, sorry Wren, metrosexual is sooo 2005. The new "in thing" is the red-blooded ubersexual (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/11/13/LVGDMFKH741.DTL&hw=jon+jang&sn=001&sc=1000). ;)

CaptLex
04-19-2006, 08:56 AM
BTW, sorry Wren, metrosexual is sooo 2005. The new "in thing" is the red-blooded ubersexual (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/11/13/LVGDMFKH741.DTL&hw=jon+jang&sn=001&sc=1000). ;)
That's why I don't like fads - it's hard to keep up with them. Well, I still say there's nothing wrong with a well-groomed man. :thumbup:

RevMoonSerpent
04-19-2006, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Lex
I've been given so much shit for looking like a guy, acting like a guy or generally being 'butch'.
I know the feeling. Where I use to work it was an office full of women and I was allows dealing with questions like, Why don't you use makeup?, Are those boys pants? or my favorite Are you sure you're not a lesbian? Hell even my mother thought I was a lesbian at first.
I have no problem with gay or lesbian people, they're just like everyone else, I just don't like being labeled as one.

Kieron Andrew
04-19-2006, 03:08 PM
when being asked am i lesbian my usual reply is no im a straight male.....that usually screws their heads up for a while lol

Wren
04-19-2006, 04:04 PM
BTW, sorry Wren, metrosexual is sooo 2005. The new "in thing" is the red-blooded ubersexual (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/11/13/LVGDMFKH741.DTL&hw=jon+jang&sn=001&sc=1000). ;)

Oh my. :sigh: I can never keep up... well in my defense I never liked that term, metrosexual. A man who is attracted to the subway?? hehe.

I don't like being labelled so I just make it impossible for people, as many of you on the forum might know. Aren't I such a pain? :p

emma_bb
04-19-2006, 06:46 PM
when i came out to my mother she labelled me as gay and when i told my father he thought i ment drag queen and my sister thought i wanted her bf
all from me saying im transgendered i contemplated this and thought that if i was gay and a drag queen i would of said pass me my false eye lashes and red sequin dress dad and wow sis ur bf looks hot ..its a constant fascination with me that if u say something how everyone puts their interpratation onto it ,im not so sure that there is a lot of diffrence between the sissy and the tomboy thing i think it all comes under the same social stigma but just in diffrent ways ..the same thing annoys me that as soon as u say transgendered the majority of ppl straight away equal that to sex ..it seems that ppl automaticly assume that because of that we must carry out strange sexual pratices ..why cant ppl know the true deffinition of words instead of blindly labeling arggghhh!! i dont know if ftm get this aspertion but this one really is like the one i could hit someone for gladly and thats ppl asuming your some kind of child molester ..ive had that a couple of times and it distresses me badly