Maybe I'm too sensitive ??

[Cheryl T]

I was just on Facebook and a piece came up about Jonathan Van Ness. I have no idea who he is or what he does but he was apparently at the Golden Globes in an off the shoulder gown. He has long hair, but was sporting a beard and chest hair. Of course most of the comments were "he needs psychiatric help" and things like that.
I've been down since I saw that. Am I too sensitive?
Here I am, struggling to come to terms with this all my life, trying to do my best to present myself as a woman and express my femininity. I struggle with society and the limited acceptance we receive and here is someone who just laughs in my face essentially. I see what he did as a set back of epic proportions. People that I would love to tell about Me see this and it just reinforces their belief that we are all sick and perverted.
Yes, of course, they all want to be their "true selves" but is that really what he's doing? Or is he just making a mockery of us? I'm just so upset by all this.

How do others feel about these "displays"?

[Helen_Highwater]

Cheryl,

Events like that will always bring out the haters. With certain well known rich figures spouting bile the gullible latch on. Draw strength from knowing that your real world experiences don't reflect the drivel that some spew forth. Our community is sadly being used to promote a certain type of politics and all we can do is keep the faith and take comfort in knowing there are many who don't think the way the posters do.

I'll add to this that it's likely that a (good) percentage of posts are from bots, fake ID's used to sow discord and hate, often from foreign powers keen to destabilise society for their own ends.

[LianaT]

Hi Cheryl, I understand how you feel but we all express ourselves differently. Mockery not really just personal style. 70's and 80's rock stars were skinny as hell had long hair wore spandex and makeup but it was just their style and it worked. Be yourself and you can't go wrong. Look at the late Freddie Mercury. He was stereotypical gay and didn't care and everyone loved the guy. People just loved him and his amazing singing voice. Elton John comes to mind where everyone everywhere likes at least one song from him and just looks past how he presents himself. I don't know if I make any sense but just continue to be you. The haters will always be there. I look at it like this if someone really hates say gay people then forbid yourself to have a Queen or Elton John album. Don't buy their stuff and don't go to their concerts. They want it both ways. They can't support them publicly because then they would have to wait for the backlash so they diss them but secretly they admire the courage to be themselves. Sorry for going off point but most people take their ques from the crowd and that is why those people are boring as hell. My sister thinks I'm a freak but at least I'm not boring like her and unoriginal.

[Dutchess]

Doc has said this several times before and I agree with him because we both live roughly in the same area.
It's also a very large popular area too ..
This is how the younger ones are doing this.

This is how they see things. They don't stress on surgery or hormones or pantyhose. They aren't mocking you. I actually can get with this better . They know who they are and have not left reality behind.

They dress as they want without attempting to do the wig pad thing.
I watch and listen to the young people doing this all the time.

They know they are born men and don't pretend not to be. Like at all .
But they aren't going to let that stop them from wearing what they want, how they want, wherever they want.

My daughter who was 18 at the time, had a trans roommate here at an actors only rooming house back in 2020 and he dressed like this all the time. Called himself Beverly . He also didn't care if you called him he or she too. At one point he left for a club in west Hollywood in a wedding dress with the veil and men's dress shoes. Took off to the bus stop ( regular LA metro bus ) carrying his purse and a full face of makeup like it was nothing.
This was a bio male, and that is what he wanted to wear .
He didn't see himself as a clown .
That is freedom .

No one really blends in, you can always tell and this age group( 40ish and under - United States ) does not care.
Which is not a bad thing .


I was eavesdropping on several 20 somethings talking about this on an agp/cd reddit forum( yes they fully embrace that part of this too ) and they said they did not want to be like the people here and on another site I won't mention, " worrying about bathroom rights and nylons " is exactly how they put it.
So, Di is right, people do cruise by here to see if it's something they could get into and the young ones are doing it differently.

They are also not marrying by and large and don't have that constant gender discussion 24/7 either.
Things evolve and change all the time.

[kimdl93]

I know I am old fashioned. I am old, it comes with the territory. But I also view things from the perspective of someone who a) wants to be respectful of others, and b) do not want my public presentation to be a source of shock or amusement for others. As I said to a friend, maybe these more conspicuous presentations will distract unwanted attention from my efforts to blend quietly in.

[Mercedes]

Cheryl, sorry you are feeling that way but fb is not the purveyor of the most uplifting of commentary.

I had not heard of Johnathan either so I looked at articles in the main stream news and saw him and the dress. Gorgeous dress!!! He was on Queer Eye for a number of years and this was not the only time he wore a dress. My favourite comment was from an article in the Daily Mail (which the Brits will have an opinion on) but it said:

“Jonathan Van Ness sparked a wave of divided opinions online after he walked the Golden Globes red carpet in a glamorous gown.

A majority of fans praised the Queer Eye star, 37, for his bold choice of modeling an off-the-shoulder, emerald green gown, celebrating his style and confidence.

However, some others were less enthusiastic, questioning if a different style of dress would have been more flattering on him.”

Why would I read the comments when the best one was, should he have worn a different style dress. Basically, what I am saying is, look for negativity these days and you will easily find it, but search out the positive and you will find that diversity is supported.

[Miel GG]

Cheryl, social media are full of haters, no matter the topic...
I didn't know Jonathan Van Ness until this morning. He is gender fluid so seeing him wearing an evening gown is not surprising. As a GG I am totally at ease with men in dresses, they simply reject the gender binary classification and it seems that they blend to some extent with younger generations. This has nothing to do with mocking you.
But I can understand the trouble induced by the mix of beard, hair and a dress among the general population. As I can understand the trouble induced among the same population by CDers emulating GGs with pads, wigs, mannerism, etc. I have more difficulties to understand the trouble and the critics expressed among the CD community.

[Paula Rogers]

Sorry but I think this person was only wearing a dress to get attention. I don't think any one would be talking about him if he had shown up in a tuxedo. He was not up for an award and so he wore, in my opinion, a dress he pulled of a rack and threw on - it didn't look tailored for him and did nothing to accent his figure. This is a setting where people are trying to impress with expensive couture and he looked like he shopped at the at a Used Prom Dress store. Personally, if you want an award winner earth shaker - google Billy Porter - now he can rock a dress of epic proportions as a man and he has won many awards. Jonathon, in my mind was insulting woman and crossdressers because he was purely doing it for attention.

[alwayshave]

Cheryl, I attempt to avoid social media for this very reason. Haters feel emboldened behind a keyboard.

[audreyinalbany]

I gotta agree with Duchess on this one...younger folks ( in general )don't give all that much thought males wearing dresses. many of us here are of a different generation and we give a LOT of thought to wearing dresses

[Brynna M]

There are two things at play here act and motive. A man in a dress is a man who chose to wear a dress. As an expression of personal style it's the same freedom we are all looking for here. Now if as some argue he is throwing red meat to anti gendervarient community to rile their hatred for media attention that's is something to be sad about. It's certainly worth feeling sad that there is so much hate towards any benign community.

Don't ever beat yourself for feeling.

[char GG]

I didn't know who Jonathan VanNess was until this morning. I cannot judge why his choice of clothing - maybe he wanted attention - which he apparently got - or maybe he doesn't care about gender "norms" which is really what I believe many of the CDers on this forum want. If he had come out in a more flattering dress, shaved his beard, wore a wig, and breast forms, I would guess that many CDers would be applauding. A quick google search showed him wearing dresses on other occasions so this was not likely a one-time thing.

The younger people these days don't seem to want to try to emulate women - as many of the older generation does. They want to wear the clothes and shoes - without wigs, forms, and fake voices. I see it all the time where I work. There is a definite age gap on how the older and younger CDers dress.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion about Jonathan VanNess. No matter what his motivation was, I doubt it will limit acceptance from the general public. However, he achieved his goal of getting his name out there.

[docrobbysherry]

Cheryl, I respect and have no interest in insulting u. But, I think your post is overly judgemental.:sad:
Not only did u take a young stranger's action personally, u called him a "sick pervert"!:thumbsdn:
U mite feel the same about me if we met?:sad:

We binary dressers r a dying breed. In 50 years we'll all be gone! So, I understand where you're coming from. That's why I wear masks. To look like a woman. But, not just any woman. It want to be a sexy, attractive woman. Proving what a dinosaur I am!:tongueout

The young dressers of today r not trying to offend u or anyone. They're simply expressing themselves freely in a very different world than we grew up in. Something I for one am quite jealous of!:o

[_jenni_]

I?ve said it before this space can be judgey and clickie?The older generation always thinks the next is ruining society?but we are all living in the best of times.

[JulieC]

Jonathan Van Ness (JVN) self identifies as non-binary. JVN showing up at the Golden Globes as a man-in-a-dress isn't unusual. It's who they are. JVN has just as much right to do that as anyone else does. I applaud that JVN is pushing gender norms, and wish it happened more often.

Tip; when gender topics (or really any topic) comes up online somewhere; don't read the comments. Being able to hide behind keyboards make a too-large amount of people speak all sorts of idiocies. Reading it just allows such people to get into your brain for free. It's not worth it.

Cheryl, be like JVN. You be you, and forget about the world. Humans have a very nasty tendency to want to beat down anything that doesn't look "normal", as well as anything that is "exceptional". Most of the world wants everyone to be just as dull and unintelligent as they are. Don't justify their existence by reading their filth.

[Rhonda Jean]

Facial hair, chest hair, etc., etc.... Makes me cringe. When I see it in person it makes me cringe even more. In another way, I wish I had 10% of the courage or whatever it is that drives these people to do it.

Having said that, how many ways and how many times have I caused someone else to cringe? Even just in the last couple of weeks? Those of us who have been at this for a while should have developed some detachment from what people think about us, and we desire and even expect to be given a certain amount of grace and tolerance. I totally get how it stings to think that we may be judged/compared to people who present this way. It rubs us (me) the wrong way, as someone who WORKED to pass and was at times obsessed by it. I can't help that. I CAN work on my tolerance and acceptance of it and even celebrate the broadening acceptance of it. Seems I can find it simultaneously cringe-worthy and awesome. I do not pretend to understand it. Turning that back on myself, how many people have understood me? None. I don't even understand myself. I would not want to know the deepest and most honest thoughts of many of the people I've encountered, including those who have been outwardly kind. The flip side (there's always a flip side), many would not want to know mine.

Too sensitive? Yes. Try to rise above it. Broaden your detachment from it, from both the presentation you don't understand and other people's reaction to it. It bears pointing out that this kind of presentation gets a lot of positive reaction. Decide for yourself how sincere that is. If we all gave in to what everybody else thought, this board wouldn't exist.

[DianeT]

Plus it's not easy to wear a beard and a female haircut and look that good! I once ordered a blonde wig, and it looks good when I'm all shaven and made up, but when the parcel came in I tried it quickly to check the size and quality. What I saw in the mirror was umph... as sexy as an ugly glam rock star long past its prime. And no I didn't take a picture. Conchita Wurtz fears no competition from me.

[Raychel]

I am another that didn't remember who he was,
I feel that I have seen him and his style in the past.
Maybe it was last year.

Regardless I totally applaud his actions. He went to this event seen by the world
Dressed in a style of clothing that he liked, regardless of the societal norms.

I am standing and clapping my hands for him. Whatever his reasoning for doing this
this is great in my opinion.

There are a lot of hater for him doing this for one reason or another.
But that happens in all things. Take a car to a show that does not 100% fit the show style and see how that works out.

[NancySue]

What? Hollywood do something outrageous? Ha! Along with FB, etc. Forget about it. Live your life. Be yourself. Have a glass of wine.

[SophiaRose]

To each their own. IMO This also includes each of our own opinions. That?s why I like coming to this forum. Keeps my ego in check.

[Cheryl T]

Cheryl, I respect and have no interest in insulting u. But, I think your post is overly judgemental.:sad:
Not only did u take a young stranger's action personally, u called him a "sick pervert"!:thumbsdn:
U mite feel the same about me if we met?:sad:

We binary dressers r a dying breed. In 50 years we'll all be gone! So, I understand where you're coming from. That's why I wear masks. To look like a woman. But, not just any woman. It want to be a sexy, attractive woman. Proving what a dinosaur I am!:tongueout

The young dressers of today r not trying to offend u or anyone. They're simply expressing themselves freely in a very different world than we grew up in. Something I for one am quite jealous of!:o

Now who is judgemental?
Where in my post did I call him a sick pervert?
If you want to comment at least read the post.

[Geena75]

I definitely have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, I see him as a flamboyant personality who likes displaying himself in a way that provokes reaction -- that's his thing (not mine, necessarily). I also admire how he wears a beautiful dress -- I wish I could do so well. This isn't anything so new. Remember Dennis Rodman wearing a wedding dress?

On the other hand, I have great admiration and respect for the feminine form and am not sure he does it credit. I prefer to try and look as much like a woman as I can for much the same reason. I personally don't care for a blatant crossing of genders. I remember some forty years ago seeing a photo of a guy in a cute ballerina outfit and a full beard at a gay pride event and I had such a negative reaction that I turned away from dressing, vowing that I would not go that way. To this day when I want to convince myself to change back to drab all I have to do is take off the wig and look in the mirror and the charm is gone. But that's just me.

On a larger scale, it represents a problem of the wide scope covered by LGBTQ+. Does his dressing up statement represent me? No. Is he a representative of the LGBTQ movement? Yes. If I am out dressed up am I a representative of the LGBTQ movement? I suppose I am. Does the attention he brings to the movement affect me? Time will tell.

[OrdinaryAverageGuy]

Yes, you're being too sensitive. I just looked this up, he didn't seem upset at all, didn't seem confused at all, just looked like he was rocking that gown. No matter what celebs wear to an event like that someone will complain about it, because people in that world (the ones that nitpick fashion choices) are assholes.

[NatalieMN]

Now who is judgemental?
Where in my post did I call him a sick pervert?
If you want to comment at least read the post.

I think what sherry is getting at is the comment that said "it just reinforces their belief that we are all sick and perverted". I don't think you are trying to say you believe him to be a "sick pervert" but that others will not only say that about him but about others who dress in a non-conforming way.

In any case, I do believe you are being overly sensitive. I can see where you personally don't like the blending of gender norms as I am in the same boat. I don't much care for it either. However, I will say my distaste is usually reserved for myself. That is, I do everything I can to appear more feminine as Natalie so I definitely don't want even a hint of a beard when out as Natalie. But if others feel comfortable with doing that, more power to them.

Regarding the distaste for someone else blending gender norms I don't see the issue. Gay men have blurred the lines between feminine and masculine for decades and, while not always going the route of wearing traditional female clothing, the gender norms are still challenged. Nail polish, earrings (and other jewelry), lipstick were, for a long time, the purview of women exclusively. They have become more accepted for all genders because people before us were brave enough to challenge these gender norms.

I don't think Jonathan is doing anything different. Only he knows his ultimate motive but, on the surface, this simply furthers the idea that anyone can wear a dress if they so choose. I think this is a step forward rather than a step back. No matter what happens, there are always going to be opponents to anything that challenges any social norm. This is no different. But I do believe that we, of all people, should not be furthering that discourse.

To paraphrase your own signature line: Jonathan does not wear women's clothes; he wears his clothes. Let's leave him in peace for doing it.

[docrobbysherry]

Cheryl, I wasn't trying to offend u and possibly I misunderstood your comment?:sad:

When u said, "--- see this and it just reinforces their belief that we are all sick and perverted."

I assumed u were giving us your opinion of what others would think of his appearance. Was I wrong?:straightface:

[Nyla F]

Hi Cheryl,

In my experience, quite often we will react emotionally to something another person does and then use these negative emotions as evidence of the other person's wrong doing. We must step back and recognize our own emotions, and try to understand what it is that triggered the emotions. Are your feelings about Jonathan Van Ness and feeling down be connected to the struggles you mentioned?

[DAVIDA]

Just a warning on the rules covering criticism of others and will get this thread closed if it continues.
Ridiculing members/non-members, or the manner in which they express themselves.

[Lucy Long Legs]

I saw this article too, as well as the loathsome comments which followed. My only problem was the beard and hairy chest which I would avoid at all costs. It made me think, but then I continued my analysis of what we do - which of course harms nobody.
Unlike Jonathan, I am heterosexual, much to everyone's surprise (especially my wife's) as I am lacking in most masculine characteristics. As well as being seriously underendowed, I have always had a very feminine appearance, which caused problems at school, but one I discovered dressing, this became a great advantage and I can easily present as a woman. I regard dressing as a celebration of my femininity and embrace it enthusiastically.
Surprisingly, I am not attracted to men - although I had a little wobble on New Year's Eve when I was hit on by a very attractive man - I was fascinated to see how different our physiques were, but it went no further than a fumble.
The picture of Jonathan was on a "queer" page but my impression is that most us here do not fall into that category.
The analysis I refer to, is with regard to my regular visits to a lady therapist who has helped clear up my question about why I am driven to present as a woman on regular occasions. I take great trouble over details of dress, makeup and appearance en femme which I really don't in drab, but at the root of it all is my physical lack of masculinity which, now, doesn't bother me one bit and gives me great joy.

[DianeT]

I'd like to add that, even if I absolutely don't think it is the case here, it would not be the end of the world if someone mocked us as crossdressers. Mockery doesn't equate hate. People mock a lot of other people for fun, that's human nature. We are not special. When I do my full nines in front of a mirror and try to discipline my wig or set my breast forms right, yes, there is often something to laugh at. No big deal. But anyway, in the example given, this guy presented himself at his best and clearly not as a CD caricature.

[Jillcder]

Cheryl, I agree with you it was very disheartening to read so many negative and hateful comments about this individual. I consider myself a very strong individual but I got that sick to my stomach feeling while reading some of the comments i guess us crossdressers are not anywhere near being accepted if we go by this latest example of man wearing a dress. Keep your chin up Cheryl life is good.

[CarlaWestin]

This new age acceptance or the perception thereof does push my traditional society generated cringe buttons a bit but, I'm older.
And it is Hollywood, right? Many years ago Katherine Hepburn got the same result when she dared to wear pants.

[Sabine Janus]

Troglodytes die hard, but we're getting there.

This generation is inching the ball down the field. Look at Harry styles, Lil Nas X, Ed Shreenan.

Ignore the haters. Live life.

I liked the Hepburn reference.

SJ

[Cheryl T]

Cheryl, I wasn't trying to offend u and possibly I misunderstood your comment?:sad:

When u said, "--- see this and it just reinforces their belief that we are all sick and perverted."

I assumed u were giving us your opinion of what others would think of his appearance. Was I wrong?:straightface:

I was not giving my opinion of him or his outfit.
I was saying that the haters use this as cannon fodder to destroy us. All it does is make it more difficult for someone like me to express myself. We all become the target of their hatred when they see something like this. It may advance his position but does nothing for the rest of us.

[kimdl93]

I have to agree that the fellow at Golden Globes might be viewed by some as a pioneer, but can just as easily become yet another provocation for those who would rather we simply did not exist. To be honest, I feel concern over the more highly sexualized and provocatively dressed participants in annual Pride events. I do not consider myself particularly prudish but I do worry about some of the images being presented to the public. So, I guess I am a prude

[SaraLin]

Ok, OK - y'all got me curious enough to go look up a picture of him.

I wasn't sure what I expected to see, but I definitely was surprised.

He actually looks good in that dress. "who woulda thot?"

More power to him, even though it's not a look I'd ever strive for (the beard and short hair. The dress gorgeous!)

[Michelle_G]

Rock on, you do you Boo! Me personally, just not a fan of the facial and chest hair with the dress.

[snoostrawberry]

I admire his courage to put it out there because it can be very polarizing. I do prefer how someone like Harry Styles uses women's fashion, just seems more elegant maybe? i don't know, everyone is on their own journey with what is acceptable to them.

[JohnH]

I personally applaud Jonathan Van Ness of wearing a dress as a man.

I have been on estrogen for over 13 years and have developed a feminine figure and appearance, and so I present like a woman with my dresses. And yet I still regard myself as a man, as I have XY chromosomes. That's why I use my masculine name.
I wish more men who choose feminine presentations would keep their masculine name and gender designations so that men in general would get out of the deep rut of coats and ties for formal wear and explore alternatives.

John