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RevMoonSerpent
05-01-2006, 01:28 AM
I've noticed that a general statement in a lot of places is that there are no female cross dressers because a woman can wear mens garments and not have a problem. I'm not saying that statement applies to anyone here but, you can find it all over the media.
As an FtM I have noticed that when I go out dressed in all mens stuff people still tend to watch you just as much and not always assuming that you are a lesbian.
For example when I met my best friends husband the first thing he asked her when I left was why I was in all guys clothes.
So here is my main observation. If you are a woman and wear a pair of mens pants or a guys shirt mixed with any other type of womans apparel it's really no big deal but, If you happen to be dressed from head to toe in mens stuff, without going the extra mile to bind your breasts and pack you do get noticed and can turn some heads.
Does anyone else see this?

Abraxas
05-01-2006, 02:39 AM
Nobody's ever said anything to or about me relating directly to that, as far as I know. There have been times when I've come out to people (either saying, "I'm trans," or "guess what, I'm actually a female") and they kind of go, "oh, okay, I was wondering about that..."
Closest I've come is I went over to my friend's boyfriend's house for dinner, and as I was leaving, my friend introduced me to her boyfriend's roommate, briefly. We just said hi to each other and I left. She told me that as soon as I left, he'd said, "Is he straight?" And she said, "well, he's a she," and he apparently replied, "yeah, there was something a little odd about his aura."
So, I don't know if that counts or not lol

CaptLex
05-01-2006, 09:35 AM
I've noticed that a general statement in a lot of places is that there are no female cross dressers because a woman can wear mens garments and not have a problem. I'm not saying that statement applies to anyone here but, you can find it all over the media.
As an FtM I have noticed that when I go out dressed in all mens stuff people still tend to watch you just as much and not always assuming that you are a lesbian. . . . Does anyone else see this?
Oh man, if I had a dollar for everytime I've heard that (and that's just on this site), I'd might have enough saved up for SRS by now (or at least a cruise to the Caribbean). :rolleyes:

I'm guessing Abraxas may not get as many looks as I do because he passes so much better, but I know what you mean. I get looks everyday and people who have known me for a long time are now starting to ask questions (they don't dare ask me, so they approach my poor cousin who is tired of telling them to mind their own business). I just tell myself that if they're looking at me with that "is that a he or a she?" glance, then I must be doing something right. But I wish just once somebody would call me "sir" instead of "ma'am". :p

Fainne the King
05-01-2006, 09:29 PM
People straight up ask me things like this. When I first got a really short haircut, a girl in my class said to me "you look like a boy. Do you like girls?" And I get comments like "do you want to be a boy or something?" and "wow, you're really a tomboy, huh?" And a girl in one of my classes recently noticed I keep my wallet in my back pocket and said "you keep your wallet like that? You're a boy." I don't usually take it rude, I just laugh and say, yeah, I am a boy.
And honestly, I don't generally wear all mens clothes, just jeans and a t-shirt. I guess that's lesbonic enough for the super prissy girls around here.

Wren
05-01-2006, 10:27 PM
****ers :Angry3:
It's like us saying that men don't count as people because they've never suffered pursecution in the way that women have. It's just as ridiculous. No one should judge before actually doing it and I warrant the only people saying that are people who have never been in close proximity with a femal to male crossdresser.

And again with the lesbian thing. Can we please refrain.

Edit
Wow, rereading that I sound like a frigid cow. My, my it's not meant as harshly as it seems. Moooooo.

sparro
05-01-2006, 11:05 PM
I get stared at. Especially in washrooms.

I am not dressed in mens clothes, I am trying to look like a man.

I am getting really tired of this "we've got it harder, no we do!" thing. And to go so far as to say something doesn't exist. Now I've got myself going on theories of existence, which makes me mad.
MtF and FtM do experience their situations in the same way, but of course it's going to vary from one to the other. Where one has a harder time here, another will there. Face it, if you're either openly in society it will often suck, no matter which you are, no matter who you are. We need less questioning of eachother and pooping on eachother and more group HUGS! AH!

CaptLex
05-01-2006, 11:16 PM
Face it, if you're either openly in society it will often suck, no matter which you are, no matter who you are. We need less questioning of eachother and pooping on eachother and more group HUGS! AH!
Amen to that, brother. Here you go, Sparro . . . :gh:

Wren
05-01-2006, 11:18 PM
We need less questioning of eachother and pooping on eachother and more group HUGS! AH!

Yay verilly!
:hugs:

and on a diatribe. It sucks my face off how we have to be boys on the FTM forum and ladies on the MTF. I wanna be me, and me is a bady or a loy, hehe that sounds dumb.

CaptLex
05-01-2006, 11:27 PM
I wanna be me, and me is a bady or a loy, hehe that sounds dumb.
You can be whatever you want, Wren. No labels, no restrictions, no judgements. :itsok:

Wren
05-02-2006, 12:45 PM
Okay, when I said let's refrain from the lesbian thing what I meant is :

Stop comparing boyish clothing and a manlyish appearance to being a lesbian. Does anyone realize what a stereotype (an offensive one) you are all putting forth?

julz
05-02-2006, 01:57 PM
Stop comparing boyish clothing and a manlyish appearance to being a lesbian. Does anyone realize what a stereotype (an offensive one) you are all putting forth?

I completely agree. It is insulting to both the lesbian community and the gender community. Not all lesbians like typical "man-ish" things, and not all women who do like those things are lesbians. It doesn't work either way.

RevMoonSerpent
05-02-2006, 02:11 PM
Perhaps my original post was not worded in a way that people would get my meaning that I was trying to create with the thread.
The first part of the original thread was describing how the masses view us in general. That there are no FtM cross dressers because women can wear mens cloths. That is not my view on things but how society sees us.
Now to the "lesbian thing" as you pointed out Wren is very offensive and stereotypical but, as spoken before it is a general view of the public. What people don't take the time to understand they put a generic label on.
Finally, a lot of us find the label just as offensive as you do especially when referred to as such in public but, as I said mentioning it was to make a point at how others see us not how we see ourselves.
The thread was not meant to cause hostility amongst the group but, I've heard so many sob stories about how MtF's can't go out in public because people stare and want to know why they wear womens cloths etc. I can understand that and I simpathize but, my main issue was to see if those types of reactions happen to us as an FtM.
I get the looks and it isn't a sexual preference generalization but an actual clothing choice stare.
So, I hope this post clears things up a little more and can put an end to the negativity that has been some what of a reaction since starting this thread. It was not meant as such.

Julie Avery
05-02-2006, 04:15 PM
I am personally of the opinion that the "girls can crossdress, boys can't" is lame. It's usually pointed to a woman in denim pants by a man wearing breast forms. I think that about tells the story.

I might also add that I worked with a couple of FTM's in telecommunications, a few years back, and I assumed they were lesbians because they crossdressed, even though I'm a crossdresser and know (now) how silly that assumption is.

May we all live long enough to become wise!

Jennaie
05-02-2006, 05:25 PM
It's really not true that girls can crossdress and not be noticed. A woman who is crossdressed and is still wearing makeup and looking very fem in her male clothing is not going to attract attention. A woman who is wearing no makeup and looks, carries herself in a masculine manner who is dressed in a male way is going to see some attention.

What it all boils down to is this, no matter how hard a man tries, he is a man and no matter how hard a woman tries, she is a woman. There are very few of us who can actually go out there and "pass" as the other sex, regardless of how bad we want it.

I have seen some mtf's who look like girls, but very few. It's a cage we are stuck in, and when we try to escape from it, people notice.

I am in the group hug. :bighug:

CaptLex
05-02-2006, 06:21 PM
I am personally of the opinion that the "girls can crossdress, boys can't" is lame. . . . May we all live long enough to become wise!
You are already very wise, my friend. :yrtw:


It's a cage we are stuck in, and when we try to escape from it, people notice. I am in the group hug.
Here's one from me, Jennaie . . . :hugs: You ladies rock!

NightFox87
05-17-2006, 07:10 PM
Okay, when I said let's refrain from the lesbian thing what I meant is :

Stop comparing boyish clothing and a manlyish appearance to being a lesbian. Does anyone realize what a stereotype (an offensive one) you are all putting forth?


Thank you. People have been accusing me of being a lesbian because I wear guys' clothes since I was 12 years old. I'm not a lesbian, I'm a tomboy. They are not one in the same.:mad:

Keira
05-30-2006, 04:12 PM
Okay, when I said let's refrain from the lesbian thing what I meant is :

Stop comparing boyish clothing and a manlyish appearance to being a lesbian. Does anyone realize what a stereotype (an offensive one) you are all putting forth?

Wren, After reading many of your posts, sorry to say, but to me it sounds like you are a lesbian in denial. I hope you have support and guidance to deal with this.
I know, as I once denied that I was gay, and only "trying on" a new identity. Not only is it futile, but it hurts you and those around you that you may claim to care about.
You can email me anytime if you need help or advice, I've been there!!
Hugs,
Keira

:hugs:

Keira
05-30-2006, 04:19 PM
I've noticed that a general statement in a lot of places is that there are no female cross dressers because a woman can wear mens garments and not have a problem. I'm not saying that statement applies to anyone here but, you can find it all over the media.
As an FtM I have noticed that when I go out dressed in all mens stuff people still tend to watch you just as much and not always assuming that you are a lesbian.
For example when I met my best friends husband the first thing he asked her when I left was why I was in all guys clothes.
So here is my main observation. If you are a woman and wear a pair of mens pants or a guys shirt mixed with any other type of womans apparel it's really no big deal but, If you happen to be dressed from head to toe in mens stuff, without going the extra mile to bind your breasts and pack you do get noticed and can turn some heads.
Does anyone else see this?

Hi Ladymoonserpent

I am new to this forum but am happy to have found it, quite by accident!
I live in a small town and have to be very careful about how I come across
to people as far as dress goes. My partner and I are not openly gay in the general community, just out of fear of the unwanted attention we may receive from the redneck component! We do circulate in the gay community when we visit Vancouver though. The way we dress does change a little bit I must admit, depending upon the circumstances of our location!

Hugs,
Keira:)

Wren
05-30-2006, 11:29 PM
Wren, After reading many of your posts, sorry to say, but to me it sounds like you are a lesbian in denial. I hope you have support and guidance to deal with this.
I know, as I once denied that I was gay, and only "trying on" a new identity. Not only is it futile, but it hurts you and those around you that you may claim to care about.
You can email me anytime if you need help or advice, I've been there!!
Hugs,
Keira

:hugs:

Hello...ummm okay if you had read my posts you would know that I do not really identify as anything because it's extremely complicated. I am with an FTM so technically that's a women right. And I had a really long thought about my feelings and my sexuality. I don't really want to e-mail you or in fact like you, because all though you were trying to be supportive you just ruined my day. I can't stand the lesbian bashing because it's annoying. I don't like any type of bashing because it's extremely offensive. I don't appreciate being told that because I have strong morals and values that I am in denial. You could have sent me a PM about this, but because you put it on the forum I will too. and probably make a few enemies. good day to you.

and also thank you for setting a wonderful example that if someone speaks up in honour of a certain group than they MUST be LABELLED as that, in this case a lesbian. Thank you again for pointing out my personal error against the way that I identify.

I was mislead to believe that this was a haven where I could be who I am, and identify as I liked without being called to error. I deal with being called a bunch of things that I am not all the time, I do not need this. I don't feel comfortable on this forum anymore. It does not offend me that you called me a lesbian it offends me that you are telling me that I am wrong in how I see myself. I am not a lesbian because I like men, I am not straight because I have a female to male boyfriend. Why am I with an FTM if I like boys. Well mull over that one and think about what your posting next time.

sparro
05-30-2006, 11:38 PM
Hi Ladymoonserpent
Wren, After reading many of your posts, sorry to say, but to me it sounds like you are a lesbian in denial. I hope you have support and guidance to deal with this.
I know, as I once denied that I was gay, and only "trying on" a new identity. Not only is it futile, but it hurts you and those around you that you may claim to care about.
You can email me anytime if you need help or advice, I've been there!!
Hugs,
Keira




That's a kind of insensitive and assuming thing to say. To me, it just seemed that she was trying to make the forum more comfortable for lesbians/everybody else. I identify as homosexual, and it's always bothered me that people going on saying things like "Because I wear mens clothes everybody thought I was a lesbian and I was sad". There are a few reasons those comments bother me, most of all that it makes it seem as though homosexuality is a negative thing (it may be said with the best of intentions, but still come out as an insult to me).

No one is in any position to tell a person that they are in denial about themselves so blantantly. On a public forum it's embarassing and demeaning. This is the sort of personnal comment PMs are meant for (even though I'm assuming you had the best intentions).

Adam
05-31-2006, 09:05 AM
hi Keira

ok so theres one of two things here eather you are uncareing or you are not thinking things thu before you post no one has the right to guess or tell others how they are feeling just because maybe you went thu denial does not mean that someone else is becuase everyone is differnt so i would ask you in future to eather keep your judgement to yourself or pm the person in private because it can be very upsetting if you go into a forum and someones posted something about you that isent right!!!:eek:

Anyways as you are new here i guess you dident really do this to be nasty but please give a little thought about things before you post about someone else

CaptLex
05-31-2006, 09:12 AM
Wren, After reading many of your posts, sorry to say, but to me it sounds like you are a lesbian in denial. I hope you have support and guidance to deal with this.
Keira,

I'm thinking that maybe you meant to be helpful, but I can totally understand why this post is upsetting to Wren and others here. I think we've all come here to share what we have in common and, unless we ask for help, information and/or advice, it's not cool for anyone to tell another what they are or how they should deal with their situation. Just my 0.02



I identify as homosexual, and it's always bothered me that people going on saying things like "Because I wear mens clothes everybody thought I was a lesbian and I was sad". There are a few reasons those comments bother me, most of all that it makes it seem as though homosexuality is a negative thing (it may be said with the best of intentions, but still come out as an insult to me).
Sparro,

I'm one of those that has said I'm tired of people assuming I'm lesbian because I wear male clothing, and I apologize if my comments have been insensitive or rude. The only reason I've ever mentioned it is because I feel that I'm invisible as an FtM when people make this assumption, not because I'm insulted by the generalization. Again, I'm sorry if this was demeaning to you. :Peace:

Ms. Donna
05-31-2006, 09:27 AM
Hello...ummm okay if you had read my posts you would know that I do not really identify as anything because it's extremely complicated.
Right there with you. It is complicated most often, all the lables in the world can not capture the essense of how we feel.


I can't stand the lesbian bashing because it's annoying. I don't like any type of bashing because it's extremely offensive. I don't appreciate being told that because I have strong morals and values that I am in denial.
I've been told that as well - being in denial. In fast, I'll hazard a guess that most all of us have heard that at lease once - and if not yet, it will happen. People like to believe that their way is the right way. And while most are well intentioned, they are often blind to the fact that everyone's situation is different: there is no 'one size fits all' solution - besides, one size fits all applies only to earrings. ;)


and also thank you for setting a wonderful example that if someone speaks up in honour of a certain group than they MUST be LABELLED as that, in this case a lesbian.
This is a problem - not just in this case - but in general. People simply can not grasp the notion of understanding and supporting people who are different than themselves. It's all very selfish: "I'm not gay, why should I go to a pride rally?" They do not see that supporting the rights of one group is supporting the rights of everyone. Very sad...


I was mislead to believe that this was a haven where I could be who I am, and identify as I liked without being called to error. I deal with being called a bunch of things that I am not all the time, I do not need this. I don't feel comfortable on this forum anymore. It does not offend me that you called me a lesbian it offends me that you are telling me that I am wrong in how I see myself.
T-shirt quote: "Mean people suck!" If you get hung up on them, your life will suck as well.

While Keira's observations may not have come across well, I suspect the intent was not to offend. I'd suggest it be chalked up to a bad first start and everyone try again. Bog knows I've not always come across as 'articulate' as I'd like. :o


I am not a lesbian because I like men, I am not straight because I have a female to male boyfriend. Why am I with an FTM if I like boys. Well mull over that one and think about what your posting next time.
This is very merky area for transpeople. Gay/Lesbian/Straight is a sexual preference thing - although what we call sexual attraction is usually gender attraction. I'm attracted to what is stereotypically feminine, and it took me awhile to reconcile that it doesn't seem to matter what sex is making that presentation. Does this make me hetero / homo / bi / pan / whatever-sexual? I suppose it only matters to the extent I want it to matter. :) Add to this the fact that I have come to see 'beauty' in rather ambiguously gendered persons as well and... As I started this post, let's just say that the current set of labels available falls short in being able to capture the essense of how we feel.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

HaleyPink2000
05-31-2006, 09:43 AM
Just a little about people I know.

I know a lesbian couple very well. One of them is the Dom male figure. She likes to be called by her female given name but is not a
f2m. She tells you right off She's a lesbian, and proud of it. She dresses like a man top to bottom. Never any makeup. Does She get noticed. Maybe! But She does not care. As They say " It's their way, their culture". They have said that many times around myself and others. But I think every couple differs a little as do individual people.

A Gay male couple I know quite well. The Dom, He's very Male. Then sub She's a Cross Dresses M2F. . She's not interested in SRS. As She'd say " Ever ". Very nice people to hang with. Also very cool to talk to. Do they get looks? Yes! One reason is She is beautiful, I mean beautiful!:D She'd be a 9 pluss Hunny, on a scale from 1 to 10. Always dressed nice, and is quite slim. Passes? Yes She does. So as for getting looks in a Mall, they could care. But that was a topic one time we talked about.0.02

HaleyPink2000
05-31-2006, 09:51 AM
And while most are well intentioned, they are often blind to the fact that everyone's situation is different: there is no 'one size fits all' solution - besides, one size fits all applies only to earrings. ;)


This is a problem - not just in this case - but in general. People simply can not grasp the notion of understanding and supporting people who are different than themselves. It's all very selfish: "I'm not gay, why should I go to a pride rally?" They do not see that supporting the rights of one group is supporting the rights of everyone. Very sad...


T-shirt quote: "Mean people suck!" If you get hung up on them, your life will suck as well.



Love & Stuff,
Donna


Ms. Donna:

I love the ideas you bring to light. We all don't fit any mold. We are all modifications to a theme. :hugs:

CaptLex
05-31-2006, 09:59 AM
As I started this post, let's just say that the current set of labels available falls short in being able to capture the essense of how we feel.
Well said - good summary :thumbsup:


Just a little about people I know.
Haley, you lost me . . . what does your post have to do with the current topic?

HaleyPink2000
05-31-2006, 10:15 AM
Well said - good summary :thumbsup:


Haley, you lost me . . . what does your post have to do with the current topic?


Just that people vary on a theme! Also that not just F2m's or M2F's get noticed in the Mall.

Sorry for the confusion. :D

Keira
05-31-2006, 06:27 PM
I am not a lesbian because I like men, I am not straight because I have a female to male boyfriend. Why am I with an FTM if I like boys. Well mull over that one and think about what your posting next time.

Wren
I'm sorry to have offended you or anyone else, I totally did not mean anything except to try and help you!
I just SO saw my self (two years ago!) in many of your posts!
I had an amazing girlfriend at the tiem and tried to get her to do the "boy" thing. She wasn't into it, but tried to please me at her own expense.
I was in total denial that I was anything BUT straight and into men!
Now that I look back, I feel like I acted like a total loser, trying to hang my denial onto somebody i supposedly loved. Call it control or denial or both, I can now admit that was a big part of it.
Sorry again if anybody was upset by this, I don't like labels any more than anyone else.

Hugs,
Keira:happy:

Tamara Croft
05-31-2006, 07:22 PM
I've noticed that a general statement in a lot of places is that there are no female cross dressers because a woman can wear mens garments and not have a problem. I've actually read that once before on this very forum :(

One thing I've learned so far about you guys, is how hard it really must be being a ftm cd/ts. It's not so much about wearing guys clothing, or getting the usual bs from others about wearing guys stuff, it seems to me that many people don't take you seriously and put you all in this 'butch lesbian' label..... Damn it pisses me off.

I keep reading how 'it's ok for women to wear guys clothes', but that in itself isn't doing you guys any good, because again, that puts you under yet another label, but the bloody wrong one. I don't understand why MTF CD/TS are taken more seriously than the FTM's :( and I see that a lot on this very forum. Well, you guys have my support anytime you need it and although I can't possibly imagine what it must be like for you, I can certainly imagine.

Wren
05-31-2006, 07:58 PM
Wren
I'm sorry to have offended you or anyone else, I totally did not mean anything except to try and help you!
I just SO saw my self (two years ago!) in many of your posts!
I had an amazing girlfriend at the tiem and tried to get her to do the "boy" thing. She wasn't into it, but tried to please me at her own expense.
I was in total denial that I was anything BUT straight and into men!
Now that I look back, I feel like I acted like a total loser, trying to hang my denial onto somebody i supposedly loved. Call it control or denial or both, I can now admit that was a big part of it.
Sorry again if anybody was upset by this, I don't like labels any more than anyone else.

Hugs,
Keira:happy:

Okay...did you ignore the rest of my post. Did you think before posting this? So now I'm forcing my boyfriend to be a FTM crossdresser? So now have you not only insulted me but now you are saying that my boyfriend is not FTM of his own free will, it's all me fabricating this?

Okay not that I have to justify anything to you, but I am what you may call a pansexual. I don't judge based on gender, but I tend to be more attracted to males. I didn't actually mean for you to strip down why I was with an FTM cder, it was sarcasm. I know why I am where I am. So basically your post to me was still telling me I was in denial. Couldn't you have apologized and dropped your preaching?

You missed the entire point of why you were insulting me.

CaptLex
05-31-2006, 08:14 PM
I don't understand why MTF CD/TS are taken more seriously than the FTM's :( and I see that a lot on this very forum. Well, you guys have my support anytime you need it and although I can't possibly imagine what it must be like for you, I can certainly imagine.
Thanks, Tamara - that really means a lot. :hugs:

Wren
05-31-2006, 10:50 PM
Right there with you. It is complicated most often, all the lables in the world can not capture the essense of how we feel.

Righto!



This is a problem - not just in this case - but in general. People simply can not grasp the notion of understanding and supporting people who are different than themselves. It's all very selfish: "I'm not gay, why should I go to a pride rally?" They do not see that supporting the rights of one group is supporting the rights of everyone. Very sad...

Excellent point, I have a friend who is constantly saying that about gay pride, that she would go but she's not even 2% gay. I die a little on the inside everytime she says this. People are too worried I think about fitting into this or that, or not being mislabelled, everybodies always missing the point. Kind to your fellow human being...all that jazz


This is very merky area for transpeople. Gay/Lesbian/Straight is a sexual preference thing - although what we call sexual attraction is usually gender attraction. I'm attracted to what is stereotypically feminine, and it took me awhile to reconcile that it doesn't seem to matter what sex is making that presentation. Does this make me hetero / homo / bi / pan / whatever-sexual? I suppose it only matters to the extent I want it to matter. :) Add to this the fact that I have come to see 'beauty' in rather ambiguously gendered persons as well and... As I started this post, let's just say that the current set of labels available falls short in being able to capture the essense of how we feel.

I get berated all the time about this, myself being FTMish, gayish, straightish. It all comes down to how we choose to identify. It's a personal choice and it's something a person considers for a long time, and puts a lot of thought and energy into it. I was told in my early days struggling with being badgered by people by a wise person that as a human being I could be anything that I wanted to be, anything that I felt that I was. To me that was a melting pot of different things.

I'm attracted to my boyfriend because he passes as a man (not solely, but that's the superficial way of looking at it). I met him in the early years, and he was a close friend. He came out to me as FTM...and well the rest was history.

He wants to be seen as a male, I prefer in this relationship to be seen as a female. walking down the street we look like a straight couple. I consider us an interestingly straight couple. That's all that matters.

Anyway my point got lost somewhere in there, I'm burning with passionate fire and it doesn't allow me to post in a lucid fashion.

p.s. Your Ranma 1/2 avatar is gold. Truly brilliant.

sparro
06-01-2006, 11:17 AM
Wren
I'm sorry to have offended you or anyone else, I totally did not mean anything except to try and help you!
I just SO saw my self (two years ago!) in many of your posts!
I had an amazing girlfriend at the tiem and tried to get her to do the "boy" thing. She wasn't into it, but tried to please me at her own expense.
I was in total denial that I was anything BUT straight and into men!
Now that I look back, I feel like I acted like a total loser, trying to hang my denial onto somebody i supposedly loved. Call it control or denial or both, I can now admit that was a big part of it.
Sorry again if anybody was upset by this, I don't like labels any more than anyone else.

Hugs,
Keira:happy:

Okay. This has really got to stop. You seem to be completely ignoring what Wren is saying, and now you've gone and offended me as well as her more.

I AM WREN'S BOYFRIEND. I AM NOT GOING TO LEAVE HER BECAUSE SHE'S NOT MAKING ME DO ANYTHING I DON'T WANT TO. I CROSSDRESS BECAUSE I LIKE TO.

I don't understand why you are even continuing with this, considering Wren has made it full clear, along with many other people, that that kind of help is not appropriate to give without someone needing or asking for it first. And she does not want it. I think she has made it FULL clear that your help isn't wanted, and you have to respect her wishes. Projecting your problems onto someone you barely know and acting superior about it is totally inappropriate. Please do not reply to this.




On a different note, I appologize for not making our relationship clear earlier. We both thought it would seem a little awkward. The thing is we use this forum as two seperate people, not a couple, and since we're both on the FtM forum... we just wanted to be seen as two different people, I guess.

Kieron Andrew
06-01-2006, 11:30 AM
On a different note, I appologize for not making our relationship clear earlier. We both thought it would seem a little awkward. The thing is we use this forum as two seperate people, not a couple, and since we're both on the FtM forum... we just wanted to be seen as two different people, I guess.Your relationship is no ones business but your own!, we will all continue to see you as separate people with separate views and issues!!

on a different note Keira i suggest you take some time out, and sit and read all that you have written to Wren and others for that matter.....and see just how offensive and upsetting you have been, the way others conduit their life is no business of yours or anyone elses for that matter, you have no right to tell someone they are FTM or not!, as you do not know that person personally.........

The FTM forum has always been fairly harmonious til you came along please be aware your actions and words can sometimes hurt a person

I will NOT allow any member of this forum to feel hurt and intimidated by another!

anymore of this crap and im closing the thread permanently as it has gone wayyyyyyy off track!!

CaptLex
06-01-2006, 12:48 PM
On a different note, I appologize for not making our relationship clear earlier. We both thought it would seem a little awkward. The thing is we use this forum as two seperate people, not a couple, and since we're both on the FtM forum... we just wanted to be seen as two different people, I guess.


Your relationship is no ones business but your own!, we will all continue to see you as separate people with separate views and issues!!
I agree with Kells on this. Obviously, the reason you guys are here is because it's the place where each one feels comfortable, and the forum is open to both of you individually, regardless of your relationship (which I think is cool, btw). It really doesn't matter if one identifies as "male" or "female" in your relationship (if that's the case), all that matters is that you fit in here - and you both do. :hugs:

Keira,

I understand your thinking that Wren reminds you of your own past situation, but the fact remains that you don't really know Wren (even if you think you do) and, more importantly, no advice or help was requested. :nono:

Kieron Andrew
06-01-2006, 01:07 PM
in fact.....wren you know you are sooooo gonna have to post some pics of you together now lol..........the happy couple lol, get yourself a photo thread in the gallery going!!!

sparro
06-01-2006, 06:55 PM
in fact.....wren you know you are sooooo gonna have to post some pics of you together now lol..........the happy couple lol, get yourself a photo thread in the gallery going!!!


:D. I feel special. ahem. We don't have many pictures because we usually rely on other people's cameras. But I think we will.:happy:

Ms. Donna
06-01-2006, 08:12 PM
Your Ranma 1/2 avatar is gold. Truly brilliant.
Thanks. For me, it seemed to capture the 'essence' of how I see my self - shifting back and forth while never being either. I think it's very cool that anime so willingly includes transgender themes in their storylines. They treat it as a normal thing. :)


I get berated all the time about this, myself being FTMish, gayish, straightish. It all comes down to how we choose to identify. It's a personal choice and it's something a person considers for a long time, and puts a lot of thought and energy into it. I was told in my early days struggling with being badgered by people by a wise person that as a human being I could be anything that I wanted to be, anything that I felt that I was. To me that was a melting pot of different things.
I don't know how much this happens in the gay community, but I have heard a lot of this in the lesbian community. You can be as 'butch' as you want, but once you start to identify as a transman, you are either in denial (you can't admit you are a lesbian), ostracized (if you're a 'man', than you have no place here) or pitied (another one lost to the patriarchy). Again, it's all a result of looking at sex and gender as one unit and holding the opinion that you need to be one to the other.

The transgender community (if you can call it that) can be a very unaccepting place. It's members often cling to their labels so tightly that they see any challenge of the definition thereof as a personal attact. You are either 'one of us, or you're not.'

Not so much here, but there is a the TG 'pecking order' which is prevenient over on the M2F side of the hall. From Kate Bornstein's book, Gender Outlaw:


Post-operative Transsexuals (those transsexuals who've had genital surgery and live fully in the role of another gender) look down on:

Pre-operative Transsexuals (those who are living full or part time in another gender, but who've not yet had their genital surgery) who in turn look down on:

Transgenders (people living in another gender identity, but who have little or no intention of having genital surgery) who can't abide:

She-Males (a she-male friend of mine described herself as "tits, big hair, lots of make-up and a dick") who snub the:

Drag Queens (gay men who on occasion dress in varying parodies of women) who laugh about the:

Out Transvestites (usually heterosexual men who dress as they think women dress, and who are out in the open about doing it) who pity the:

Closet Cases (transvestites who hide their crossdressing) who mock the post-op transsexuals.


I've been on-line in TG forums for nearly 10 years, I have attended gender workshops and discussion groups and I can honestly say that the above is pretty accurate. And what I find most most interesting is that Transmen simply do not seem to play this game: their networks - as a rule - are about support for each other. But the Transgirls... bog, but we're a catty lot. It's not that we've lost the plot - more like we never had it to begin with.


He wants to be seen as a male, I prefer in this relationship to be seen as a female. walking down the street we look like a straight couple. I consider us an interestingly straight couple. That's all that matters.
To me, it sounds like you have a pretty cool relationship. But more importantly, it works for you both - you are both happy in it. If that means you are the 'girl' when you're out together, but a 'boy' other times - so what? Personally, I find it somewhat unnatural to have to 'be' one thing all the time. I mean, everything in nature is dynamic. Even rocks - static as they may seem - change over time.

I like to look at it like this: the seed becomes the plant - the plant becomes the tree - the tree grows buds - the buds become flowers - the flowers become fruit - the fruit becomes the seed... They are all different and yet all the same - they are all different instances of the same being.


As dynamic beings, why should we any different?


Love & Stuff,
Donna

Ms. Donna
06-02-2006, 07:15 PM
And Ms_Donna, very very interesting post, I never thought about that sort of thing. I've never really noticed much snubbing on this site, but what you put sounds like it would defenitely happen.

I don't see it actively happening here, on this site - everyone here is pretty respectful of each other. But in the M2F 'community' as a whole, it is a very real thing: a constant game of tranny queen of the hill. ;)

You guys just seem to have you act together - low profile, do your thing, support one another and get through life as best as you can. :cool:

Love & Stuff,
Donna