The police and their diversity training.....

[Emma_Forbes]

Hi Girls,

Well I'm staggered and don't really know what to think. I have sent the following email to the diversity team of a local police force and have just received the following reply. What do you think?

My email to them

Dear Sir/Madam,

I would like some clarification regarding ******** (name removed) police's attitude towards crossdressers/transvestites in public. Whilst I appreciate that there is a considerable pressure on the service to deal with all people the same regardless of race, religion, gender .....etc I was wondering about the practicalities.

Is it actually against the law? Are there normally legal behaviours which might get one arrested because of the fact of being crossdressed? For example, a visit to a ladies toilet might cause a breach of the peace if someone took offence. Would such an act be illegal and would the result be arrest?

As a further example of the difficulties, if I am stopped while driving while dressed as a woman, my documents will be in my male name and indeed I will have no way of proving my identity unless it is acceptable that I may not appear as on my driving licence. How is this handled? Being stopped by the police is nervewracking enough for us innocent citizens (must be psychological!) but if stopped while crossdressed it would be a hundred times worse.

There is, I am sure you can appreciate, a sense in which the crossdresser already may feel (and therefore act) guilty because of the crossdressing (and being caught) rather than anything actually against the law. Any guidance you could give as to how to handle this situation would be much appreciated.

Their reply to me:


Thank you for your emails of 4th April and 3rd May. I had confirmed receipt of your earlier email but had forwarded it for consideration to our legal department for advice from them. Please accept my apologies for the delay in responding.

Firstly I would like to emphasise that ******** Police are committed to providing a fair and equitable service to all members of the community.

While I appreciate the concerns and scenarios that you raise it would not be appropriate to comment or provide guidance on how cross-dressers would be dealt with by our police officers in such circumstances. As you will appreciate each incident has many different facts to it and it is not a matter of confirming a general approach to what can quite often be complicated situations. You have in effect asked questions that relate to matters of individual choice and therefore you may be best to seek your own independent legal advice.

Our ******** Police Standard and our diversity initiatives commit us to providing a professional, courteous, honest and fair service, respecting diversity and demonstrating our commitment to eliminating all forms of discrimination. Further information on the ******** Police Standard and our Diversity work are available on the ******** Police website.

If I can be of any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me.

I think what this means is that you'll probably get arrested and it'll all be sorted out subsequently once you have legal advice in place. If that's respect for diversity then I'm a woman :cheeky:

Em

[CharlaineCadence]

that is what is called a blanket statement.
They are worried about you being a news crew or reportrd for a paper. What you want to do is call the human right commity in your state and ask them Or just an officer in genrual. Whith all the things that people are doing to the police departments i can understand their lack of responding. also the rules of thumb are different in every city. Also find out if your state has laws regarding gender identy.
hope it helped

kiss kiss
Char

[Emma_Forbes]

Hi Charlaine,

Thanks for your reply. I'm in the UK where we're not so organised Besides, being so close to Europe, we don't have blanket statements, they must be duvet statements - European directive - :joke:

Em

[Brianna Lovely]

Hi Emma, I was trying to do some research on UK law and came across the below quoted item. Hugs, Brianna L.

"Unlocking the potential of public sector information at
www.opsi.gov.uk

The Cabinet Office is committed to providing equal
opportunities for all, irrespective of age, disability,
ethnicity, gender, marital status, religion,
sexuality, transgender and working patterns."

[Joy Carter]

that is what is called a blanket statement.
They are worried about you being a news crew or reportrd for a paper. What you want to do is call the human right commity in your state and ask them Or just an officer in genrual. Whith all the things that people are doing to the police departments i can understand their lack of responding. also the rules of thumb are different in every city. Also find out if your state has laws regarding gender identy.
hope it helped

kiss kiss
Char

Char is absolutly right the less sead is best, no service to you but this is what lawyers have done to the system and the public trust. Lawyers + Deep pockets = Wealthy Lawyer. :thumbsdn:

[Deborah_UK]

I always find this page very useful, from the Northern Concord website

http://www.northernconcord.org.uk/Police-Sense%202.htm

[Susan Johnson]

having until recently been involved in UK law enforcement, the last advice I heard of given to 'custody staff' ie, the people who work in the cells and deal with people who have been arrested. A person is to be dealt with as the gender they appear and claim to be. in other words if a crossdresser appears female and claims to be female they would be treated as the gender they claimed to be as it is possible it could be a person preparing for realignment surgery. They would be searched by a female officer and placed in the female cell accomodation. The same would apply to a female appearing as and claiming to be male. they would be treated as male. As for driving, it is not a requirement to carry a driving licence so as long as you give you correct name and not your 'femme' name there should not be any problems. The officer may have a laugh about it later but should treat you in a reasonable and polite manner as long as you give correct details most of which can be verified at the time you are stopped. As to the use of toilets, any action taken would depend on circumstances but best advice is if you do use female toilets while en femme do not hang arround longer than you need to and risk being accused of 'peeping'
susan

[BeckyCath]

Hi Emma

I'm not too surprised that your local constabulary responded the way they did. They have a diversity policy, and all officers are trained in diversity, all have been on diversity awareness training. They are professional, and will act accordingly.

It's not against the law to dress as you choose, but common sense is always needed.

As far as "breach of the peace" in public toilets go, you're highly unlikely to get much trouble in this day and age, but its how you handle the situation, should one arise, that counts.

As far as being pulled over by the constabulary whilst driving dressed as you choose, The safest and simplest thing to do is give them your proper full name, not your femme name (unless of course your female name is your legal name) When they ask if it is your car, say "Yes" or tell them who's it is. Be polite and respectful, and they will be polite, respectful and professional back.

I was pulled in Central Milton Keynes Christmas 2004, because i had a smashed rear light cluster on my car. The officer asked me my name (I hadn't changed my name then) so i told him... we hd a chat, he even told me to "Stay in your car madam" and talked to me through the window. He told me he'd log he'd pulled me, and told me to get my light cluster fixed within 7 days. He didn't give me a fixed penalty (which i would have got if i had been in drab) just warned me and sent me on my way...

I've never been arrested, don't intend to be arrested, but since i'm full time now, and under treatment, i would probably be treated and processed as a woman...

If you're that concerned about how the police will handle things, contact your local LAGLO... Lesbian and Gay Liason Officer, they're specifically trained in homophobic and transphobic hate crimes, and will probably be able to explain how the police would deal with you if you ever felt the long arm of the law...

Hope this helps, please don't worry about being out and about, even if you're totally none passable, most people just don't care.

Rebecca

[Emma_Forbes]

Thank you to all those who have taken the time to reply.

I must admit that the questions I asked of the police were not particularly intended to get specific answers. They were more to test the attitude and policy being presented. I find it interesting therefore to note how easily the questions are answered in this forum and wonder why the police could not be so forthcoming. Now I know we are the 'experts' in transgenderism but I would have thought that it was in the police's interest to have a bit more flesh on the bones of their skeleton of a policy.

It seems strange for an organisation which buries its employees in mounds of paperwork that they don't seem to have any concrete procedures for dealing with transgendered individuals.

I think this probably requires further contact with the police in this regard so I will consider how best to respond.

Em

[kristine239]

Here's a tip for you in the UK. Dr. Stephen Whittle s.t.whittle@mmu.ac.uk internationally known lawyer,lecturer, scholar on transgender law. He lives in Manchester UK. He is also president elect of HBIGDA. There is no better source any where.

Kristine

[sherri]

I would have thought that it was in the police's interest to have a bit more flesh on the bones of their skeleton of a policy. Their reply was such a cop-out (no pun intended). And in a way unnacceptable. I don't know about the UK, but in the States there exists the attitude on the part of law enforcers that "ignorance of the law is no excuse" for illegal behavior. So, one would think they are obliged to articulate the law for those who so inquire. And the notion of waiting until you are busted to find out what the law is is absurd. You might consider addressing your questions to the UK version of the Attorney General's office.

[BeckyCath]

Emma...

Can i ask a coupe of questions please?

Firstly, Have you been out dressed yet?

Secondly, If you have, Have you had trouble with the police?

I'm wondering if you're concerning yourself about nothing, a hypothetical situation that, will in all likelyhood, never happen.

Personally, i think the police are well aware of the law, they have been trained in diversity, they know how to apply the law fairly.

Emma, Please don't panic about the police, they are more likely to be on your side, you are not doing anything wrong by going out dressed, and no police officer would assume you're the guilty party in any "affray"... Your personal and private "guilt" is not something the police would concern themselves with.
You don't need to feel guilty for being a cross dresser...

Please let the police get on with important things. Ask yourself this... How many times have i had dealings with the police? Is there any reason to believe that you would attract their attention because you're out dressed?

Rebecca

[Emma_Forbes]

Rebecca,

In answer to your questions I have been out a couple of times in very very carefully managed situations and have always avoided any situations involving anyone else, let alone the police.

However I am aware of another crossdresser who has had a very bad experience with the police and where they made her feel like a criminal.

As I said previously I didn't ask questions for specific answers just for a guide to their attitude. Their response won't put me off from going out freely when I get to that point in my life. However, I still find it surprising that their policy seems to have so little substance.

Thanks for your view though

Em

[EricaCD]

Actually, the police's reponse is entirely consistent with my expectations under both US and, based on my extremely limited knowledge, UK penal law (pun definitely intended). Police are not trained to advise as to lawful vs. unlawful conduct except in clearcut instances. To do so would be to engage in the unlicensed practice of law, even for a police officer. They are not supposed to answer hypothetical questions as to criminal conduct. Most importantly, in many cases they simply don't know they answer.

To take one example from your inquiry: is a CD subject to a possible claim for breach of the peace (trespass, whatever) if she uses the restroom of her presented gender rather than her genetic gender? Of course the police are not going to answer "Never", because we can all imagine circumstances where this SHOULD lead to arrest. (Imagine a man in sloppy makeup, dressed like a prostitute, who spends 1/2 hour in the ladies' bathroom in an undergraduate dormitory.) On the other hand, the police cannot say "Always" because we can just as easily imagine a circumstance where there is no problem. The correct answer, and the one the police gave you, is "it depends - ask a lawyer."

I actually thought their reply was professional and appropriate. I also note from the first paragraph that they did apparently seek internal legal guidance before replying, which is a far sight more than most departments would likely do.

As to lawyers refusing to give definitive answers and pocketing immense fees for doing so, I plead guilty as charged. :)

Erica