The difficulties of acceptance.

[Amelie]

I have a question that I would like answered only by the Male to Female t-girls and CDs.

I have heard many times on this forum that Cds find it difficult to get acceptance from their wives and other gg ‘s in general. Do you think that ggs might be a little bit jealous of male cds. I have heard on this forum and I have seen it with my own eyes that most ggs don’t dress as well as most cd’s. I mean, when I look at the cds on this site, I see such beauty, especially in the clothes area. Are ggs jealous of our beauty? Yet most of the ggs that I see out side in the street, dress on the shabby side, oversized sweatshirt and baggy jeans. I understand that there are some ggs that are poor, but not all the ggs are poor. I am not talking about ggs that shop at Walmart, but at the high scale stores. They don’t dress anywhere near as nice as the Cds I see at this site.

So my question., do the cds here see that some ggs can be jealous of cds, a kind of resentment that cds are dressing in a way that threatens them. Maybe just as some ggs don’t like other ggs that dress provocatively, can this reasoning also be why some ggs don’t like cds to dress as women. Do they feel threatened that men shouldn’t be in this territory of theirs, especially when Cds try to look sexy and pretty, similar to the provocatively(not ****ty) dressed female.

If I am wrong with my thoughts, then I would like to hear what other mtf cds have to say is the reason that they have such difficulties in finding an accepting gg partner. What is the reason that the ggs in your life don’t accept you. It can’t be a macho thing, like guys have, what can be the root reason that some cds have it so hard with gg partners. Obviously if you have an accepting partner then this question isn’t for you.

[GypsyKaren]

Hi Amelie

Interesting point. I have an accepting partner, but I can say that during the time it took her to get there, she was never jealous of me. I think she was more shell shocked than anything. I can also honestly say that she's better looking than me on her worst day than I am on my best.

Karen

[Amelie]

The reason that I made my post is that when I go out, I can get many men( straight, gay, bi, whatever) who are interested in me, even some macho tough guys take a liking to me and want to be with me. I have no difficulties at all in finding an accepting male partner, Yet on this and other CD forums, the male CDs have such difficulties finding accepting GG partners. I was just wondering why there is such a difference between men liking and accepting Cds as in my case and and other CDs having a rough time finding an accepting GG.

[Laurie Ann]

My SO would not be accepting it has more to do with her sense of what is right and wrong than anything else. I have not told her that I cd but have tried to work around the issue on many occasions her constant refrain it that its perverted. I would love for her to be more involved but fear prevents me from coming out to her fully. Amelie this is an excellent question.

[jenny_centaur]

Amelie,

you raised some interesting points. I think the situation of a tranny coming out to his partner is an entirely different case to that of a tranny meeting a gg whilst dressed and a relationship progressing from there.

In the first case I think the partner will be initially horrified, assuming all the old clichéd myths about transvestism (primarily, that he's gay). In the second case I think many women stand in awe that a man can be so confident of his own masculinity, that he can confidently present himself in (good) feminine guise without any doubt whatsoever of his own sexuality; to many women this can be a big turn-on.

Jenny

[EricaCD]

I'm sure our ggs will have a field day with this and if I had any sense I'd sit this one out. But I don't have any sense...

Whatever mix of emotions and concerns animates my wife's lack of acceptance, it ain't a competitive concern and it certainly isn't that I dress better than she does. Remember, any GG out there that elects to do so can put on nice clothes, and any competition would be over! And while I absolutely delight in enjoying our members' photos and the evident joy on their faces as they revel in their transformations, let's not kid ourselves about being a "threat" to ggs in the appearance department.

A gg can dress shabbily, with no preparation, and still be beautiful. It takes me about an hour to get myself to a point where, on a great day if everything is working perfectly, a person might on first glance think "female and not plug-ugly" before doing the likely double take.

Inasmuch as there is a "competitive concern", it seems (based here on my reading of gg posts in the last couple months) inwardly directed: "how have I failed in being a woman such that my SO feels compelled to make himself a woman?" And I have no doubt that my wife is jealous of several things: my distraction from her when I indulge this horribly narcissistic passion, the time and effort that I put into Erica, and the lives of all the women around her that do not have to live with a secret that was not of her making or choosing. So yes, I think jealousy probably captures some of the issues, but not about wishing she could "look hot like Erica". (If that were the case, then in addition to having an unaccepting spouse I'd also have a psychiatric case on my hands...)

Erica

[Ms. Donna]

Hi Amelie,

Have a look at the thread Why are GG's unaccepting? (http://crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21704) and my reply. (http://crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=315213)

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[FionaAlexis]

Hi Amelie,

Oh! If only that was the case. I don’t think there are too many of us whose partners are jealous of us.

My own partner has ‘come to terms’ with what I am – and ‘come to terms’ by her definition is tolerates and co-operates – but it falls short of acceptance in the full sense of the word.

My main issue for partners – and I’m speaking of those who discover their partner is TG/CD etc after committing to a relationship – is that they committed to a relationship with a hetero-masculine male.

Even in this post feminist era, the dream/goal etc. of most hetero-females is to fall in love with a settle down with a masculine male. A strong but caring guy who will be their protector – but who is also happy to take instructions. The gender divide is alive and well [thank God!]. My partner loves gardening but would never dream of mowing the lawn – no that is a male task.

Many times I have sat in on mothers groups and heard things like ‘if my Jim had been there – he’d have sorted them out….’ Or ‘the men need to do something about this’ etc. Now, of course, in 2 or 3 years time they’ll be separated and they’ll be sorting it out themselves anyway. Real men have real difficulties in this new era because there aren’t too many out there who are a combination of Gary Cooper and a hetero George Michael.

Anyway when you tell your partner you are TG you shatter their world as they know it. Now they are faced with a partner who wants to be female albeit temporarily. Their sense of security and stability is threatened. The fear of embarrassment and disgust prays on their minds. Its whole plethora of negative emotions – but jealousy isn’t one of them.

Years later she may feign jealousy but its not the real deal.

Fiona xx

[Marla S]

Jealousy might be a reason in a view cases, but not in general.
I have difficulties with the comparison of the fashion of CDers and the "average" GG, because:
1.) CDs tend to "overdress" or dress in typical (stereotype) female clothes (it is easier to feel feminine this way).
You just have to look at this poll (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29754). Even if you would ask only the "nice dressed" GGs, I doubt that 37 % of them would call stockings their favorite leg wear.
2.) For me down-dressing and still expressing yourself is the high art of CDing.
3.) Going shopping for some lunch is something different then posing for a pic or dress for an event.
4.) CDs kind of have to have an more intense (not necessarily better) fashion feeling because clothes are what that is all about.
5.) Though there are quite a few not so good dressed GGs, I can't generalize it. Everyday I see a lot well dressed GGs with different fashion styles and on different occasions.

As I experienced it, difficulties arise from:
a) Possible social repressions (CDs are not leaving the closet, but the SO enters it).
b) Fear of not being a "good enough" woman. (This is something different than jealousy).
c) Just finding male mode more attractive than female mode.
d) CDing is hard to understand if you are not a CD, TS.

[Sharon_Rose]

I have found GGs to be far more accepting than men [other than my SO.] I think it depends upon the age group. The older ladies are less accepting than the younger ones.

[Joy Carter]

I can't add anything here that has not been already sead. Just would like to get going because time is getting short.

[Amelie]

Thanks all, lots of good replies, and I thank you.

I do understand that there is a difference between a married CD coming out later to his wife and me a single T-girl meeting men, this I do understand is a big difference.

But let's take a different approach. Is it the same for a cd to find an accepting gg right from the start of the relationship or is it easier for someone like me to find an acepting man right from the start. We both would be the same, honest and up front with our respective partners. Would the cd looking for a gg have it as easy as I would finding a man.

I only go by what I read in these forums and I read threads where single CDs have a rough time finding an excepting GG as a partner, yet me, I have no problems finding an accepting male.

Are GGs less acepting to be in a relationship with a CD, and if so then why do you think this is? I am not talking about coming out late in a relationship, I mean when the relationship starts and both are up front and honest.

From what I read in the forums, guys are more accepting to CDs than GGs, well from what I read in your threads on the forum.

OK, maybe GGs don't have a jealousy towards CDs, then why is it harder for a straight cd to find an accepting Gg partner and it is very easy for me to find a male partner?

[Sharon_Rose]

I will preface this by saying that it depends upon how attractive and femine appearing you are. Having said that, I have NOT met a guy that wasn't gay or another CD who was accepting.

[gennee]

You make a valid point, Amelie. My SO doesn't accept my dressing, but I don't think it's because I dress better. I think some gg's ARE jealous of cd's for the very reason you mentioned. Dressing nice takes time and some effort. Some gg's take it for granted , I guess. I believe that I show my homage to gg's by crossdressing.

Gennee

[Amelie]

Marla, maybe you got a point there.

Maybe GGs are looking for the attraction of a male figure and not a female figure. And the guys who seek me out want the look that I present to them. Maybe these men want me for the way I look and the Ggs don't want a cd for the way he looks. This is a good point.

[Katrina]

I think the men that seek out TG women may be in part attracted to the taboo aspect of it and the fact that a TG woman possibly will act ultra-feminine where GGs may take that for granted. My GF has said that she is interested in a masculine man and not a woman. She is not attracted to Katrina and her biggest fear is that Katrina will take over my life and chop off certain parts. That said, I think that any GG on her worst day has an easier time being a girl than I ever will even on my best day.

[Amelie]

I think the men that seek out TG women may be in part attracted to the taboo aspect of it and the fact that a TG woman possibly will act ultra-feminine where GGs may take that for granted. My GF has said that she is interested in a masculine man and not a woman. She is not attracted to Katrina and her biggest fear is that Katrina will take over my life and chop off certain parts. That said, I think that any GG on her worst day has an easier time being a girl than I ever will even on my best day.


Yea, I was kinda thinking like what you said Katrina. As I read these responses I am getting the feeling what you said is right.

[Kate Simmons]

My wife has told me flat out that she looks at my femme self as competition and that in a way, because of that, I am being unfaithful to her and does not want my femme self to exist at all. At this point in time, we are estranged (more or less) which kind of leaves me in a quandry. I love my wife and always will but have realized that I cannot turn back as I need both of my personas to go on. My wife wants a HUSBAND not someone who is half a man and half a woman. This being the case, I have looked for and found friends who accept me as Ericka and I feel very much like a woman who is appreciated and loved in more ways than one. I find guys are attracted to me as well. It may start with questions on why I want to do this and then goes into deeper things. It may be because of being on the same side of the "tracks", I dunno but overall I feel that some guys may feel less threatened by us than they do GG's. Life is interesting sometimes. Take care, Ericka

[paulaN]

I think that katrena is right. my SO wants a hole man not half of one and we don't talk much about my cding. her loss. I am very lucky to have a woman who is as understanding as she is. she just dosn't want anything do do with Paula. Most woman want a MAN. Most men want sex. and a hot as your avatar is I can see where you would not have any trouble finding a man. but woman seem to like the softer side of men too. just don't wear a dress thats all. does all this make sence.

[Clare]

My former Wife was a traditional, old fashioned type of person. Men and Women had their roles in life and were expected to conform to them. Men dressing in womens clothing was a definite no no as it didin't fit into the established social patterns she believed in! There you have it.

[ReginaK]

The reason that I made my post is that when I go out, I can get many men( straight, gay, bi, whatever) who are interested in me, even some macho tough guys take a liking to me and want to be with me. I have no difficulties at all in finding an accepting male partner, Yet on this and other CD forums, the male CDs have such difficulties finding accepting GG partners. I was just wondering why there is such a difference between men liking and accepting Cds as in my case and and other CDs having a rough time finding an accepting GG.

Men for the most part are driven by their libidos. You're a pretty girl, so of course you don't have a problem attracting men. Most women (genetic or otherwise) can easily get a man. Even the less polished of us TG girls can get a man. Men are just horn dogs like that.

Women on the other had are more driven by how they feel about something. And when it comes to men, the feelings of security and trust are most important of all. So of course it's going to be hard for a CDer to find a woman. I've been given "you're not manly enough" speech and i'm 6'2" and well over 200 pounds. Feeling secure in the arms of a big burly man was important to her and a "man in a dress" just could not provide that to her. And then there is the trust issue. So many of us lie about and hide what we do, that when the lady of our desires does find out, she feels like she has been mislead and lied to. So there goes the trust.

To it put it simply, men are easy to impress. Women are not. Ironically, most of the people who accept me are women. It's just that none of the women want to date me. The guys are the ones i'd like to take a bat to. They're the ones who contribute to the non-acceptance in my life.

[btmgrl6]

Regina, you said a mouthful. Men are basically horn dogs and any gg could could have a different one everyday if she wanted.... but they don't
I don't think gg's are jealous of us.. They may not like us, but jealousy...I don't think so

Steph

Unless they are uglier and fatter than we are maybe ha ha ha

[Joy Carter]

Anyone see the video of that song ? The blond standing next to our hero started crying at the end of the song and her words " I wanted a real man" that about says it all. They want, they want women are for the most part idealistic and don't want any part of any thing different.

[Kate Simmons]

I think that katrena is right. my SO wants a hole man not half of one and we don't talk much about my cding. her loss. I am very lucky to have a woman who is as understanding as she is. she just dosn't want anything do do with Paula. Most woman want a MAN. Most men want sex. and a hot as your avatar is I can see where you would not have any trouble finding a man. but woman seem to like the softer side of men too. just don't wear a dress thats all. does all this make sence.
I guess what you are saying Paula is that women want it all. They want a "soft" hard man. Ericka

[Danielle]

The reason that I made my post is that when I go out, I can get many men( straight, gay, bi, whatever) who are interested in me, even some macho tough guys take a liking to me and want to be with me. I have no difficulties at all in finding an accepting male partner, Yet on this and other CD forums, the male CDs have such difficulties finding accepting GG partners. I was just wondering why there is such a difference between men liking and accepting Cds as in my case and and other CDs having a rough time finding an accepting GG.
Totally right amelie it is hard so hard to find someone who is looking for cd for a partner is always a secret in most cases.I'm on a mission to actually see if I could hook up with a GG that actually wants a crossdresser straight out for a partner:luvu: if I succeed I will let yall know.:D

[Amelie]

Thanks to all of you that responded, I appreciate your input and views. I have learned some stuff from this thread and it’s been quite helpful. I can understand better how other t-girls think.

But I have also learned that I was wrong in my way of thinking on how this forum should operate. I now believe that segregating the forum so that only specific people can respond is actually a good thing. A topic like mine, which might be considered a bit controversial can be discussed without arguing because the question is directed at only certain people to answer. I think the segregating of the forum might be a god thing, maybe now certain topics can be discussed openly without fear of an argument. I like this set up, I think that I will post more threads in the future and receive great responses similar to the ones above.

Thanks all for your input and arguing free posts.

[Ellaine]

Hi Amelie A very thought inspiring thread...as ever....

He hears what she wants, and she hears what he wants...AAAAgggghhhh...he didn't suddenly fancy being CD, want, or think he'd ever accept his CDing. He woke up one day and those femme items were calling. She wants it all to go away. Things are thrown at us by life. Some can cope some can't, acceptance is an individual thing and no amount of PC propaganda will change that dramaticly.
A part of being accepted as CD is being able to not look unatractive. If you are lucky enough to be able to use make-up and don't have a coarse stubble etc, people can get a sense of being able to see why it works for you. they still might not like it, but it is a lot less bizarre if she looks ok. Society is like that. There's bit of...why would he want to look like an ugly woman? They can't get their head around his feelings.
As said above somewhere, can't find it now .... "blending in, is the high-art of CDing". I go along with that. CD's generally overdress, not only due to ineptitude, but also because it is an occasion for them, just as most women do not dress up for everyday life. So jealousy isn't a likely to be a factor for most. However, a woman with thoughts about having 'orrible legs, will be jealous of a man or woman, with great legs, but perhaps also annoyed at the man because by dressing and showing her legs up, he is not being "normal" and so is open to criticism anyway. It's all very hard to pin down, and different for everyone. My head hurts!!! I think I'll try knitting spaghetti

[Lilith Moon]

But I have also learned that I was wrong in my way of thinking on how this forum should operate. I now believe that segregating the forum so that only specific people can respond is actually a good thing. A topic like mine, which might be considered a bit controversial can be discussed without arguing because the question is directed at only certain people to answer.

I bet there are some ggs who are jumping up and down wanting to chip in on this thread...but what is sauce for the goose is.... :evil:

[FionaAlexis]

Are GGs less acepting to be in a relationship with a CD, and if so then why do you think this is? I am not talking about coming out late in a relationship, I mean when the relationship starts and both are up front and honest.

From what I read in the forums, guys are more accepting to CDs than GGs, well from what I read in your threads on the forum.

OK, maybe GGs don't have a jealousy towards CDs, then why is it harder for a straight cd to find an accepting Gg partner and it is very easy for me to find a male partner?

I'm not sure that guys are more accepting - I think it's merely a different sort of non acceptance. I'm sure we can find guys who will accept us as TG and sexual partners - but I'm not sure there are too many who have jumped to the next level of acceptance by settling down and forming an LTR....and taking you home to meet the folks. There are some I hear of but not that many I would have thought?

Fiona xx

[Amelie]

Yea Ellaine, I understand what you are saying. Society still makes the rules, it even makes rules as to what is acceptable for a cd to look like. I am only guessing here, but I guess if a cd was to not shave and basicly not fit "societies" image of a woman then he would have a tougher time of it, than would a CD who might try to look very close to what "society" says a woman should look like. I don't know if I was clear in my thoughts up above, I don't want to step on any toes, I was only creating an example, I wasn't talking about all Cds and all situations.

Yea Fiona, I kinda figured that as well. It is an acceptance on a different level, maybe the two acceptances are like comparing apples and oranges. It would be different between men and women.

And thanks Lilith, for your statement.

[ReginaK]

As a whole, acceptance isn't really that much of a problem. Most people really don't care about you or what you do. You could wear a clown suit and rainbow wig every day, and while you'd get a lot of attention, no one would really care.

I think unacceptance tends to be overblown on this forum for a few reasons:

1. Most of the more active members here are older (i'd say the majority are between 35 and 50), thus their peers tend to be from a generation where deviating from ones gender is taboo.

2. Most of the more active members here are married or in relationships where they didn't tell about their CD'ing beforehand.

3. This a support forum, so the posts about problems tend to outnumber the posts about the good things that happen.

4. And related to #3, those who are accepted and don't have any problems tend to not come here.

5. And a lot of members here are deeply closeted. Closeting yourself leads to fear of unacceptance, because in essence you don't really accept yourself yet.

[Amelie]

Thanks to all who responded, Regina you made some good points.

To the others who didn't respond, I hope it wasn't out of some kind of fear or something.

Well, to the friends here, thanks and take care.

[Maria-Christina]

I have a very supportive SO but sometimes I can see a certain look in her eyes. I spend much more money on Maria than I do on myself or my SO. Also more than my SO does on herself. I try to keep a grip but it's much more fun buying girlie things.

Maria

[Julie York]

It's about self esteme. People have their own little tick boxes about what makes them feel good about themselves. If you are quite proud of your job and think you are quite good at it , then you'd be a bit pissed off if your wife etc suddenly took it up as a hobby....and was actually good at it...better than you in fact.

A man looking for a CD is not threatened as they are seeing and looking for the woman qualities that don't intrude on their own tick boxes. An emasculated male is not a threat to a male male. And emasculated male is alarming to a "female female" because your legs may be better and your waist slimmer.